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Thread: The Focus of Introverted Ethics

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    Default The Focus of Introverted Ethics

    This question is particularly for egos, though if you know one well and are certain of their thought processes, you can chime in. Just keep in mind that I am interested in info of/from people who have been typed in Socionics, independent of any type they may have in MBTI.

    I attempted to discuss the nature of with someone on PerC. The person's assertion is that types focus on how others feel; whereas types focus on their own feelings, even to determine how others are feeling or should be feeling (ie "that would have hurt me, so it must have hurt her", or "I feel this way about x, so the other person should, too"). Socionic descriptions of say it can focus on both its own feelings/sentiments/desires and someone else's. So here are my questions:

    * Do you treat others' feelings as an extension of your own ("That would make me feel bad, so they probably feel bad")?
    * Do you focus on others' feelings independent of how you would personally feel in that situation? If so, is it based on what you know of their likes and dislikes, or do you have another way of determining they are hurt/offended? Do you find it is easier to determine whether someone is upset/hurt/offended by something if you know them well? How do you handle this when strangers are involved?
    * Do you do both? If so, which is your primary mode of operation?
    Johari/Nohari

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    introversion/extroversion is not the same thing as internal/external or subjective/objective, it's something else completely and the sooner this misconception goes away the less likely i am to pop a nerve out of frustration.

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    Hi,

    There's no consensus on my being EII, but it's a popular type after the leading LII. I have seen, and experienced, an interest in the way other people relate to their world. @lungs is a great manifestation of this. Not only is she seemingly very tolerant of other people, but she consistently refers to people's intentions in communication, as opposed to the effect of that communication. (I think this is at odds with my focus on results rather than relationships, providing evidence that I am Merry, depending on one's interpretion.)

    If there is a pattern, the one immediate to me is that prefers cause, prefers effect. I can see very different applications of empathy between @lungs and the old user, @sigma. seems to prefer relating with people from their shoes, seems to prefer communicating with people based on your role as a communicator.
    Last edited by Holon; 08-02-2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: referred to lungs by old username

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    introversion/extroversion is not the same thing as internal/external or subjective/objective, it's something else completely and the sooner this misconception goes away the less likely i am to pop a nerve out of frustration.
    Agreed. The person in question rejects as described. Given that rejection and that I can only speak for my own experience in the matter (which is arguably a mix of the two approaches), I decided to see how other types experience this. Would you like to contribute to the thread by answering any of the questions?
    Last edited by Cuddly McFluffles; 08-02-2013 at 01:27 PM.
    Johari/Nohari

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    @A Grain of a Song of Sand Kassie and Lungs are the same person.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    chairpersonality Holon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    @A Grain of a Song of Sand Kassie and Lungs are the same person.
    I know Please interpret my post assuming I know as such. Sorry I only have two examples to draw from.

    scribbles in the dark

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    i think fi focuses more inward but to simplify it to the point where fi only ever notices its own feelings and fe only ever notices others feelings is one of those things that disregards the scope of normal human functioning. it's from that basis that you get silly extrapolations about fi types thinking everybody else would feel the same way they do.

    when i'm evaluating how somebody else is feeling what i would feel is one small factor. it's a combination of what they verbally communicate about their feelings and their behavior in the context of the situation and what i already know about them (ie if they tend to withdraw when they're sad and i know i would feel sad in the same situation and they tell me they're feeling fine but they're withdrawing...i would sort of holistically piece it together to try to get a sense of whether they are feeling sad or not.)

    hopefully that made sense, i'm pre-coffee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i think fi focuses more inward but to simplify it to the point where fi only ever notices its own feelings and fe only ever notices others feelings is one of those things that disregards the scope of normal human functioning. it's from that basis that you get silly extrapolations about fi types thinking everybody else would feel the same way they do.

    when i'm evaluating how somebody else is feeling what i would feel is one small factor. it's a combination of what they verbally communicate about their feelings and their behavior in the context of the situation and what i already know about them (ie if they tend to withdraw when they're sad and i know i would feel sad in the same situation and they tell me they're feeling fine but they're withdrawing...i would sort of holistically piece it together to try to get a sense of whether they are feeling sad or not.)

    hopefully that made sense, i'm pre-coffee.
    Yeah, it made sense. Thanks.
    Johari/Nohari

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    I assume that by Fi egos you're including Fi creatives rather than strictly Fi base?

    If so, then limiting myself to this:
    * Do you treat others' feelings as an extension of your own ("That would make me feel bad, so they probably feel bad")?
    * Do you focus on others' feelings independent of how you would personally feel in that situation? If so, is it based on what you know of their likes and dislikes, or do you have another way of determining they are hurt/offended? Do you find it is easier to determine whether someone is upset/hurt/offended by something if you know them well? How do you handle this when strangers are involved?
    * Do you do both? If so, which is your primary mode of operation?
    When someone tells me a story of say, something negative happening to them, i become of two minds. Part of me might flinch or have some other emotionally related action to it, as if the negative thing had happened to me. Much like how a guy will flinch and cross his legs when he sees another guy getting smacked in the balls. Basically...the mirror neurons have kicked in and thus triggered an instinctive reaction as if it was happening to me.

    But another part of me is either watching the teller's own reactions if I don't know them, or drawing from previous conversations I've had with the person, to get an idea of how the negative thing might have influenced their own mind/emotions. What's negative to me may not be negative to them, and the other way around. I'll also likely ask some very personal questions so that I can get a sense of how they were personally affected. Unfortunately, those questions and my curious digging like that can seem insensitive, nosey, and inappropriate to the situation and/or their current feelings.
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    @anndelise Yeah, creative perspectives are welcomed.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Butting in with my own assertions for you to chew on.
    Of the elements called Feeling or Ethical one is feeling and other is ethical.
    Fi addresses field of interaction between persons. When base, it as Ti strives to get principles out of the field to then make top down judgments on situations.
    Everyone has feelings. What makes someone a Fe ego is naturally dealing with feelings on their own right as in addressing feelings with feelings and in the Fe base case feelings being the primary evaluation level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    * Do you treat others' feelings as an extension of your own ("That would make me feel bad, so they probably feel bad")?
    I'm not entirely sure I can offer a clear response to this. I believe the most accurate answer would be sometimes. It's really more of a function of how close I feel I am to that person. Certainly I can sympathize with others, if my friends are sad at times that may illicit an emotional reaction from me, though certainly not always. I can be fairly protective of those close to me and lash out at those that hurt them emotionally. Though in light of thinking on your example question I think 'no' is a more appropriate answer. I certainly don't assume that what would make me feel bad would make others feel bad. More often than not I have no need to assume anything regarding the feelings of those close to me, once I know someone well enough I can just tell when they are feeling up or down without any need to reference my own emotional history in similar situations. Though I can certainly reference it if I need to, it's just not a first choice or gut reaction.
    * Do you focus on others' feelings independent of how you would personally feel in that situation? If so, is it based on what you know of their likes and dislikes, or do you have another way of determining they are hurt/offended? Do you find it is easier to determine whether someone is upset/hurt/offended by something if you know them well? How do you handle this when strangers are involved?
    *chuckles* Looks like I sorta already answered this. Yes, I tend to focus on others independent of how I would feel in that situation. Yes it is based on what I know of their likes and dislikes (which can range from the concrete (They like snicker's) to the abstract (they hate losing)). I can't really describe a method I use to determine if others are hurt or offended, you just sort of know really. I would go so far as to say as my ability to tell how friend A feels is completely independent of my ability to tell how friend B feels. There is no universal, perhaps I know that friend A generally has an amazing diet and walk in on them downing ice-cream, while friend B generally has an upbeat tone to their voice and are currently describing their day as if they were Eeyore. Like I said it's all a function of how close I am to them and that is largely because my ability to glen emotional insight from them is based on them specifically. Not a method or process that can be prescribed universally.

    Strangers is an odd question. The most correct answer is it depends on their relationship to my friend, and my own level of awareness concerning their relationship. Are they a stranger to me but close to my friend? Are they a stranger to my friend but close to me? A stranger to both of us? It all depends. Plus it depends on the friend. Certain friends I generally wont be too protective of because I know they can handle themselves and would take my intervening as somewhat of an insult others I'll rush to defend in a heartbeat. There really is no straightforward answer to this for me.

    * Do you do both? If so, which is your primary mode of operation?
    I can do both but I'm not sure which is primary. I would say it depends on the situation. If a friend is asking me for advice or insight into one of their own relationships or help with one of their own friends, I will offer advice from my own personal experience (though not always in anecdotal form, it could just be the insight I gained myself and not the story behind it). In dealing with my friend directly however, I would more readily default to the second approach. So if someone needs help, option A (sort of? my response seems like more of a bastardization of option A really. I don't think it's what you're getting at and I'm sorry but I'm not entirely sure I understand option A correctly), concerning my opinion of how someone I'm close to feels option B.
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    I've been roomies with an INFj and ISFj, and I think the main difference between them and a Fe ego is that they see the *intentions* behind the action. Whereas Fe gauges the execution of the the emotion.

    I've always thought the INFj and ISFj were very sweet people, very sincere and reliable, and also that they kind of understood me better than other people. This was in college, when everything was about the external image, and many people would get the wrong idea about me, bc I was pretty wild in terms of drinking and other substances. But I was actually way too shy to ever hook up with guys at the end of a party, I would just kind of run away. The Fi-egos saw this immediately. Most others didn't.

    For most purposes I actually think that Fi and Fe are pretty interchangeable, and that all ethical types do a bit of both.. I definitely think, "I would feel this way about x, therefore others would too," and sometimes I act on it too, though I guess most of the times I wouldn't act on it.

    The fact that Fi is an introverted function makes it the same as all the introverted functions, in that it trusts its own interpretation of (ethics) more than the external indicators of how people should be behaving.

    Another example: Along with the ESI, I was living with a EIE and ESE my last year of college. By this time we had known each for 2-3 years, I had the reputation as the wild and reckless one, the others were pretty careful, image-conscious. The ESI moved in a month later; during the month when she was away I got the EIE and ESE to drink every night, try heavily dosed brownies.. I mean things they NEVER would have considered among their other friends. They definitely enjoyed it.

    The ESI was pretty conservative and upfront about it too. When she moved in the EIE and ESE gravitated back towards her, and kind of turned on me. I thought it was pretty ridiculous for them to be acting like good, studious girls all of a sudden, when I saw what shenanigans they got up to just a month ago. The ESI's image as a good studious girl, however, was unimpeachable.

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    It's been so long since I've had any sort of semi-serious socionics discussion that I've completely forgotten my perspective on the matter. I will say that asking for any IE's "focus" is a bit misleading, since it would imply that IEs have conscious agency separate from the people who exhibit them. It's like asking for the focus of y = 3x^2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    * Do you treat others' feelings as an extension of your own ("That would make me feel bad, so they probably feel bad")?
    * Do you focus on others' feelings independent of how you would personally feel in that situation? If so, is it based on what you know of their likes and dislikes, or do you have another way of determining they are hurt/offended? Do you find it is easier to determine whether someone is upset/hurt/offended by something if you know them well? How do you handle this when strangers are involved?
    * Do you do both? If so, which is your primary mode of operation?
    a) No, because sometimes it's deserved
    b) I'm not focused on other peoples emotions. Yes, it's easy to pick up on whether some is upset or not, there are a lot of indicators. But I often decide that other peoples emotions simply aren't my problem. I don't intentionally target peoples emotions, the difficult most people have is that I'm not 'massaging' their emotions.
    c) I don't know. Isn't life a mixture of both of the above and none of the above?

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    its about judgement of ones own thoughts and feelings. Is this feeling appropriate? Why? Why not? Why do I feel this way? Is it me? is it them? How do I want to feel? How do I want them to feel? What am I supposed to feel? How are they supposed to feel? Am I to change how I feel? Why and How? Am I to change how they feel? Why and how? what is right for this moment? What is right for the future? Is this the past coming up? For me? For them? Is it right? Do other people feel it is right? do I care if it is right? Do other people care if I care if it is right? Why are they acting that way? Why am I acting that way? Do I care how I am acting? Do they care how I am acting? Do they care about how much I care about how I am acting? Is this healthy? Is it serving me? Do I care if it is healthy? Why or why not? What would other people do?

    Who am I close to? why am I close to them? How can I get close to them? How much of myself should I reveal to them? Do they deserve it? Do they not deserve it? Will they relate to me? Will I relate to them? How and why? How and why not? How do I act in relation to how I feel about them? Is it right how I think about them? Is it true how I think about them? Is it true how I think about myself? Why do they think that way? Can I change it? If no, what do I do that is most comfortable? If yes, how do I change it? Or, should it stay the same?

    Is this the right time to say something? If yes, then what? Is this the wrong time to say something? If yes, then what do I do? Do I just leave it be? Should I say something? How do I feel about the things I should say?

    How will this effect others? How will this effect me? How will this effect how others feel about me? How will this effect how others act towards me? How will this effect how I act towards others? What is the rules here? Am I creating the rules? Are others creating the rules? Can I follow the rules? Is it right to follow the rules? Should I change the rules? How and why? Should I change my behaviour to follow the rules? do I even want to? If yes, then can I lie to appease them? Is that okay to do? Should I not change my behaviour? If I do not, What will the consequences be? For myself? For them? In the longterm?

    Is it safe? Am I safe to be me? Is it okay if I am not? If I am not, what good can I take from it? Where is this going? where are they going? Closer to me? Away from me? How do I feel about both? Do they see what I do? Do they notice that? If not, is it okay with me? Yes or no? If yes or no, how do I act?

    Who knows who? How are they connected? What is the right thing for me to say in the given situation? what is the right thing to act in the given situation? How can I impress upon them my needs? Do I deserve it? Yes or no? Do they deserv it? Yes or no?

    Was it right? Was it wrong? If it was right, is it okay? With me? If it is wrong, is it still okay? With' me? With them?

    How do they feel about me? How do I feel about them?

    It's the ethics of feelings. Emphasis on the ethics part. That's the beauty of socioncs introverted feeling, it can cover both the external and internal.
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    All in all it seems like you are just trying to decipher the difference between people who emotionally abuse because they want to, out of their own intentions... or people who emotionally hurt 'because they don't know any better.'

    I think they always know better, and just use things like "But I'm a logical type!" to get away with it. They know it's horrible and morally wrong, but it's their way of being able to throw a punch and it probably makes them feel manly.

    At high school I remember watching others gaslight and treat people like shit, a lot of people would act like they didn't know any better and to feign innocence for naive teenagers. It was pretty bad lmao.


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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    All in all it seems like you are just trying to decipher the difference between people who emotionally abuse because they want to, out of their own intentions... or people who emotionally hurt 'because they don't know any better.'

    I think they always know better, and just use things like "But I'm a logical type!" to get away with it. They know it's horrible and morally wrong, but it's their way of being able to throw a punch and it probably makes them feel manly.

    At high school I remember watching others gaslight and treat people like shit, a lot of people would act like they didn't know any better and to feign innocence for naive teenagers. It was pretty bad lmao.

    How did you read this thread and decide that it had anything to do with emotional abuse? o.O
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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    All in all it seems like you are just trying to decipher the difference between people who emotionally abuse because they want to, out of their own intentions... or people who emotionally hurt 'because they don't know any better.'

    I think they always know better, and just use things like "But I'm a logical type!" to get away with it. They know it's horrible and morally wrong, but it's their way of being able to throw a punch and it probably makes them feel manly.

    At high school I remember watching others gaslight and treat people like shit, a lot of people would act like they didn't know any better and to feign innocence for naive teenagers. It was pretty bad lmao.

    No offense, but, hardly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    How did you read this thread and decide that it had anything to do with emotional abuse? o.O
    Fistfucking. Don't ask. Unless...

    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    They know it's horrible and morally wrong, but it's their way of being able to throw a punch and it probably makes them feel manly.[/COLOR]
    Those are the - what's your boyfriend's name again? - Jocks(?), I take it.
    Last edited by Absurd; 08-02-2013 at 09:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    its about judgement of ones own thoughts and feelings. Is this feeling appropriate? Why? Why not? Why do I feel this way? Is it me? is it them? How do I want to feel? How do I want them to feel? What am I supposed to feel? How are they supposed to feel? Am I to change how I feel? Why and How? Am I to change how they feel? Why and how? what is right for this moment? What is right for the future? Is this the past coming up? For me? For them? Is it right? Do other people feel it is right? do I care if it is right? Do other people care if I care if it is right? Why are they acting that way? Why am I acting that way? Do I care how I am acting? Do they care how I am acting? Do they care about how much I care about how I am acting? Is this healthy? Is it serving me? Do I care if it is healthy? Why or why not? What would other people do?

    Who am I close to? why am I close to them? How can I get close to them? How much of myself should I reveal to them? Do they deserve it? Do they not deserve it? Will they relate to me? Will I relate to them? How and why? How and why not? How do I act in relation to how I feel about them? Is it right how I think about them? Is it true how I think about them? Is it true how I think about myself? Why do they think that way? Can I change it? If no, what do I do that is most comfortable? If yes, how do I change it? Or, should it stay the same?

    Is this the right time to say something? If yes, then what? Is this the wrong time to say something? If yes, then what do I do? Do I just leave it be? Should I say something? How do I feel about the things I should say?

    How will this effect others? How will this effect me? How will this effect how others feel about me? How will this effect how others act towards me? How will this effect how I act towards others? What is the rules here? Am I creating the rules? Are others creating the rules? Can I follow the rules? Is it right to follow the rules? Should I change the rules? How and why? Should I change my behaviour to follow the rules? do I even want to? If yes, then can I lie to appease them? Is that okay to do? Should I not change my behaviour? If I do not, What will the consequences be? For myself? For them? In the longterm?

    Is it safe? Am I safe to be me? Is it okay if I am not? If I am not, what good can I take from it? Where is this going? where are they going? Closer to me? Away from me? How do I feel about both? Do they see what I do? Do they notice that? If not, is it okay with me? Yes or no? If yes or no, how do I act?

    Who knows who? How are they connected? What is the right thing for me to say in the given situation? what is the right thing to act in the given situation? How can I impress upon them my needs? Do I deserve it? Yes or no? Do they deserv it? Yes or no?

    Was it right? Was it wrong? If it was right, is it okay? With me? If it is wrong, is it still okay? With' me? With them?

    How do they feel about me? How do I feel about them?

    It's the ethics of feelings. Emphasis on the ethics part. That's the beauty of socioncs introverted feeling, it can cover both the external and internal.
    I don't think I've seen a better explanation of how Fi operates, like, EVER. I can definitely say that's me right there. Great job!
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    * Do you treat others' feelings as an extension of your own ("That would make me feel bad, so they probably feel bad")?

    I have awareness of those things, but I don't treat others' feelings as my own. To be honest I can easily ignore their feelings if I'm not focused on a person and I'm absorbed in whatever is on my mind atm. I don't assume what feels wrong to me is automatically unpleasant/bad for everyone.
    That's the easy path to projection and it can be delusive. When it comes to people I'm close to, I usually know what they would personally consider bad/offensive given their experiences, sensitivities, complexes and so forth.

    * Do you focus on others' feelings independent of how you would personally feel in that situation? If so, is it based on what you know of their likes and dislikes, or do you have another way of determining they are hurt/offended? Do you find it is easier to determine whether someone is upset/hurt/offended by something if you know them well? How do you handle this when strangers are involved?

    It's a complex of both, but I don't think I spend too much time overanalyzing. I focus more on people's general likes and dislikes and build up some sort of personality profiles out of that info. e.g. I know what kind of art they're into, why, and how that interweaves with multiple aspects of their whole makeup. Mmm, I guess it's easy to know when someone is offended, no matter how much of a stranger they are. Surprises have generally come from Fi people who can hide and bottle up more subtle and subjective stuff. If ppl are hurt? It's self-understood if I know about a specific situation that may have caused trouble. But even when I don't I'm usually in tune with something almost energetic (vibes/waves) from which I can infer what they feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackholeRoad View Post
    I don't think I've seen a better explanation of how Fi operates, like, EVER. I can definitely say that's me right there. Great job!
    Are these actual questions you ask yourself? I thought if its ego then it wouldn't be so unsure/questioning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryoka14 View Post
    Are these actual questions you ask yourself? I thought if its ego then it wouldn't be so unsure/questioning?
    fwiw i related to what he wrote a lot. the questions might have obvious answers or might not (and they don't always, people aren't psychics when it comes to their base function), but the focus is always there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryoka14 View Post
    Are these actual questions you ask yourself? I thought if its ego then it wouldn't be so unsure/questioning?
    Information Elements reveal a constant dynamics of input, output etc. Not aprioric knowledge or godlike omniscience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryoka14 View Post
    Are these actual questions you ask yourself? I thought if its ego then it wouldn't be so unsure/questioning?
    When I brainstormed that list I purposed to condense a sort of written litany of the kinds of considerations a given moment would bring to my reality. The truth of that process is much more immediate and doesn't involve a linear series of yes/ no, stop go list of questions like the above list suggests. I was merely trying to capture the essence of that information element. The individual questions have answers that are inherent in the question themselves, each question naturally leads to the next and both dualities are answered simultaneously. The list was written quickly and intuitively and is by no means exhaustive of the kinds of avenues Introverted Ethics can take within an individuals worldview.

    If introverted ethics is anything, in my view it is a sort of endless questing: how is it and how could it be? Keep in mind this is only one interpretation.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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