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Thread: Is it good to be an "Alpha male"?

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    xerx's Avatar
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    Default Is it good to be an "Alpha male"?

    do people respect them even if they don't like them?

    i'm not talking about the type of thuggish guys with huge muscles and barbed wire tattoos. i mean rich, highly competitive douchebags. specifically alec baldwin:



    Capitalism is the belief that the rich don't work hard when they don't earn enough, and that the poor don't work hard when they earn too much.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I have two brothers who are alpha males, and they're my favorite brothers. ESEs, LIIs, ILEs, SEIs...all are fine in male form. (Though the ILEs are more sideshow material than friend material.)

    (Also, neither of my alpha brothers is rich [one is a poor spendthrift] and neither are competitive.)

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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    I, personally, neither like nor respect them. This opinion is heavily influenced by my personal ideals, because I always preferred a cooperative approach to a competitive one. I don't think it's bad to be successful with what you're doing, not at all. But those people are not working to achieve anything other than improving their own status. It's a matter of personality.

    If one of them did something truly great, like creating the first usable cold fusion reactor and would act like a douchebag because of that, I'd still applaud them. (Even if they may only created it to boost their ego, it's a great progresss.) However, it's much more likely for such a person to get rich by something like stock trading, buying a Ferrari and then acting like a douchebag. That doesn't help anyone, but it's much easier than doing something which actually benefits our society.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    i'm not talking about the type of thuggish guys with huge muscles and barbed wire tattoos.
    aww *exits thread*

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    The question being, good for whom?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    maybe if you take a philisophical approach like you need to darkness to see the light you need the douche to see the nondouche lallalalala

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    hahah i thought about that after i wrote it but its not what i thought to begin with. in THAT context it would be a stupid rationalization but maybe a good way to look at it after the fact when there's nothing you can do to change the past.

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    its not mutually exclusive. you can acknowledge you exercised bad judgment AND try to learn from your mistakes.

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Basically the sorts of personal reforms you're talking about never happen; people that date assholes/bitches, continue to date assholes/bitches.
    well, shit.

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    i don't really think that's true. i've dated people i just wasn't compatible with but they would be perfectly fine for other people. and maybe they acted like assholes sometimes but weren't really bad people. ive also dated people who just sucked and would be bad for anyone, more objective assholes lol. maybe i have a habit of dating assholes but not 100% of the time.

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    Per definition it's more than alright, it's preferable in all aspects of life. But alas theorem conflicts with praxis, as it almost always does.
    "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ― Thucydides

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    That's a great movie and Alec Baldwin is awesome in that role.

    I don't really think Alec Baldwin is a "asshole" in that video. I don't take much stock in alpha male characterization of humans or their special-ness. As it was originally a wolf analysis which has been refuted even by the original writers.

    http://www.davemech.org/news.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Outmoded notion of the alpha wolf
    Outmoded notion of the alpha wolf
    The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species," written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book's info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.

    One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female." In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the "dominant breeder" can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a "subordinate breeder."
    Basically being a competitive asshole doesn't really work out a lot vs taking responsibility and caring for young.

    IMO the video is also a business-like communication style, ET communication style.

    I think often ET types tend to be associated with classic male "asshole" competitive behavior, extroversion with a external focus and a lack of ethics and tact resulting in perceived social failings.

    I don't think alpha males are as successful as people exclaim they are either nor are they as concerned with success. However within a competitive team environment these traits can express themselves.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I, personally, neither like nor respect them. This opinion is heavily influenced by my personal ideals, because I always preferred a cooperative approach to a competitive one. I don't think it's bad to be successful with what you're doing, not at all. But those people are not working to achieve anything other than improving their own status. It's a matter of personality.

    If one of them did something truly great, like creating the first usable cold fusion reactor and would act like a douchebag because of that, I'd still applaud them. (Even if they may only created it to boost their ego, it's a great progresss.) However, it's much more likely for such a person to get rich by something like stock trading, buying a Ferrari and then acting like a douchebag. That doesn't help anyone, but it's much easier than doing something which actually benefits our society.
    Hey, that's what I plan on doing.... Also have you sat in a Ferrari, once you've sat in one you will want it.

    I like a cooperative approach too, but generally it ends up with someone really really hurt because their ideas are bad or don't mesh hit the cutting room floor and then they start sabotaging the entire project.

    Sadly, people often don't mesh and there are a lot of incompetent people as well. In this sort of situations someone who is domineering, competent, and disregards tact is useful and can bulldoze the project to a good result. This happens all the time and rewards and recognition can go to these individuals.

    I think Alec Baldwin is one of those individuals, in the movie as well as IRL. He's also a pretty good actor.

    The funny thing is his role in Glengarry Glenross isn't that different than Jack Donaghy from 30 rock.

    http://30rock.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_Donaghy

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Anyway, in most of today's business world, a behavior like the one in the video would result in quick isolation. It would only work if the person had his own (extremely small) company.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Anyway, in most of today's business world, a behavior like the one in the video would result in quick isolation. It would only work if the person had his own (extremely small) company.
    You sure? This guy is also not part of the company, he's a trouble shooter brought in to fix things.

    I worked in sales for a little bit and this sort of talk isn't that uncommon. The gratuitous use of profanity int he movie/play is basically 100% true. I think it depends on the culture of that particular sales group.

    Also if you look at food shows with chefs and such, a lot of the kitchen language is similar. See Gordon Ramsey.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You sure? This guy is also not part of the company, he's a trouble shooter brought in to fix things.

    I worked in sales for a little bit and this sort of talk isn't that uncommon and I would imagine in many areas this is pretty common.
    Perhaps it's common in sales, and perhaps more common by an "external that doesn't have anything to lose. Just imagine though someone working there everyday acting like that. Anyone a bit more spirited and smart would start being aggressive back, and anyone else would start conspiring against him.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Perhaps it's common in sales, and perhaps more common by an "external that doesn't have anything to lose. Just imagine though someone working there everyday acting like that. Anyone a bit more spirited and smart would start being aggressive back, and anyone else would start conspiring against him.
    It doesn't even have to be what this guy did, just assert yourself enough and there will be people conspiring against you eventually.

    Take the play Othello, in which Iago betrays Othello and does all sort of things to him, it's a classic.

    Or the Count of Monte Cristo, in which due to jealousy and success got him betrayed. Dumas sets up this betrayal very nicely, Edmond Dantes does a lot of things which although innocent enough would engender a lot of res-sentiment and envy from those around him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Anyone a bit more spirited and smart would start being aggressive back, and anyone else would start conspiring against him.
    In the next bit, which was unfortunately cut off, Ed Harris says something like "a bunch of fucking Nazis, treat people like shit", which I thought was charming.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I don't really think Alec Baldwin is a "asshole" in that video. I don't take much stock in alpha male characterization of humans or their special-ness. As it was originally a wolf analysis which has been refuted even by the original writers.
    Yes, of course. But, even taking into account the complexity of human society, the term "Alpha" can still serve as a useful proxy for someone with high status. Our closest primate relatives aren't exactly lacking in the social stratification department, either.
    Capitalism is the belief that the rich don't work hard when they don't earn enough, and that the poor don't work hard when they earn too much.

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    I haven't know any person of high status that can allow himself to act like this. Remember, there are other "persons of high status" always looking for an opportunity to take over. Showing anger in this open way will easily anger the employees, which may then "swing" towards another leader.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Yes, of course. But, even taking into account the complexity of human society, the term "Alpha" can still serve as a useful proxy for someone with high status. Our closest primate relatives aren't exactly lacking in the social stratification department, either.
    I think it's pretty natural for social stratification to occur, as well as underlying res-sentiment, envy and jealousy. There's also a lot of people who try to be "alpha" but aren't really competent enough to be that.

    I think most Alpha males fail to achieve a high amount of social success, but this applies to almost everyone.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I haven't know any person of high status that can allow himself to act like this. Remember, there are other "persons of high status" always looking for an opportunity to take over. Showing anger in this open way will easily anger the employees, which may then "swing" towards another leader.
    I don't really see this as someone of "high" social status, he's just a fixer. Respected by some, hated by others. They got the car, the house, the girl, whatever but it's not really something that is outrageous in social status.

    He is of a obvious higher social status than the salespeople but that's just failing sales people, these are expendable individuals. You obviously can't act this way towards people of a high social status or in a secure position. However, that isn't the case here.

    He's basically a sergeant who's working for a officer higher up the food chain, he's not a officer and probably wouldn't be viewed as officer material. Most stereotypical alpha males would fit into this sort of role in life and not at the very top, however there will be also many more grunts who will have to deal with the sergeant than sergeants.

    If he was able to achieve a high status it would have to be at the very top, which some do accomplish, ala Donald Trump and Gordon Ramsey.

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    xerx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I haven't know any person of high status that can allow himself to act like this. Remember, there are other "persons of high status" always looking for an opportunity to take over. Showing anger in this open way will easily anger the employees, which may then "swing" towards another leader.
    He wasn't actually the owner of the company in the movie. He just came to give them a pep talk as a favor he owed to the real owners. Plus, it seemed to me as though he was just another salesman, and not in any managerial position.

    You are of course correct that leaders who only inspire fear rarely last long, not unless they're backed by a vast apparatus of repression that would allow them to maintain power -- and even then ...
    Capitalism is the belief that the rich don't work hard when they don't earn enough, and that the poor don't work hard when they earn too much.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireyed View Post
    Alec Baldwin is SLE. Typical alpha male douche = SLE. So basically, you're saying to me "is it good to be your dual?" We'll, sure, I guess so.
    And who was Alec Baldwin's boss for so many years...(however in the show the roles were reversed).

    Tina Fey...

    A lot of stereotypical alpha males never achieve the highest social status, but they are rewarded.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    He wasn't actually the owner of the company in the movie. He just came to give them a pep talk as a favor he owed to the real owners. Plus, it seemed to me as though he was just another salesman, and not in any managerial position.

    You are of course correct that leaders who only inspire fear rarely last long, not unless they're backed by a vast apparatus of repression that would allow them to maintain power -- and even then ...
    Gordon Ramsay and Donald Trump are better examples of top of the food chain alpha males, but they're not nearly as successful as Bill Gates or Warren Buffet or someone like Richard Branson.

    Winston Churchill another stereotypical alpha male, wasn't well respected and considered a drunk and he wasn't able to really accomplish much in the geopolitical arena compared to Roosevelt and Stalin during WWII. He essentially came in as a fixer during WWII for the collapse of the British Empire.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireyed View Post
    Typical alpha male douche = SLE.
    Polikujm was right. You people don't understand socionics at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    In Transition Raver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Polikujm was right. You people don't understand socionics at all.
    Abbie, xerx is not talking about alpha as in Socionics, but alpha as in a top dog male, leader, etc..
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Polikujm was correct as right it seems. It is LIE.

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    From my understanding of what an alpha male is I would say I don't respect or like them generally speaking. I don't like when people are competitive in day to day interactions. Save it for the court or a game I don't need to listen to them trying to one up others all the time.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    This may relate only tangentially, but this article seems relevant to me.

    http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-val...ant-be-wanted/
    Copied from @Agarina 's facebook

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Abbie, xerx is not talking about alpha as in Socionics, but alpha as in a top dog male, leader, etc..
    And I'm implying that that's the wrong definition and that people need to stop using it. It was pretty meaningless to start with and has plenty of decent synonyms to replace it.
    An alpha is an ILE, an SEI, an SEI, or an ESE, it has no decent synonyms, and deserves full jurisdiction over the word to anyone not trying to spell in Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Romance Writers are strongly encouraged to use Alpha Men as the hero of the story. There's been a ton of writing on Alpha men, and why many women want to read about them.

    http://angelasknights.blogspot.com/2...pha-males.html
    http://www.annie-west.com/alphahero.html
    http://romanceuniversity.org/2009/11...he-alpha-male/

    Those are just a couple of links to get the idea of the romanticized stereotypical (nonsocionics) alpha male.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    And I'm implying that that's the wrong definition and that people need to stop using it. It was pretty meaningless to start with and has plenty of decent synonyms to replace it.
    An alpha is an ILE, an SEI, an SEI, or an ESE, it has no decent synonyms, and deserves full jurisdiction over the word to anyone not trying to spell in Greek.
    it's in Miscellaneous section, SOCIONICS HAS NO POWER HERE

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    i'm pretty sure abbie has been joking with her over-literalness from the start

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    Abbie can't joke - she's Te LSE.

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    I don't think I've ever been attracted to a non alpha male.

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    I think "Alpha male" in this discussion refers to someone of high status within a certain small culture, such as the upwardly mobile financial world, or within the branch of a business. Essentially, that status which can be conferred, is done so out of respect for someone. It might be their wealth, their knowledge, or it might be the local brand of "honour" (for example a prolific coder in an open source community, or a researcher in a lab). The issue with "Alpha males" is that we're outside the society that values their traits. As such there's a discongruity between their status within their society, and the status as conferred by us (which is none). Additionally I think there's a level of disappointment in men, because they think women only exist in the Alpha's society. I think that the truly general Alpha is just someone with high status local to their society who has more mates than the average. To that extent, I don't think the general Alpha is a bad thing, even if they're replicating bad genes like autism (sexy geeks), type A personality (financial sector alphas), or schizophrenia (bohemians). They change the evolutionary path of the species and that species's thoughts. It's a mixed bag

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Romance Writers are strongly encouraged to use Alpha Men as the hero of the story. There's been a ton of writing on Alpha men, and why many women want to read about them.

    http://angelasknights.blogspot.com/2...pha-males.html
    http://www.annie-west.com/alphahero.html
    http://romanceuniversity.org/2009/11...he-alpha-male/

    Those are just a couple of links to get the idea of the romanticized stereotypical (nonsocionics) alpha male.
    Interesting; do most women feel like this? Because those blogs just gave me the idea of writing my own romance novel, using this formula to make money.

    Got any more links?
    Capitalism is the belief that the rich don't work hard when they don't earn enough, and that the poor don't work hard when they earn too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Interesting; do most women feel like this? Because those blogs just gave me the idea of writing my own romance novel, using this formula to make money.

    Got any more links?
    Those links were just from the first page when googling Romance Alpha Male. The same concept will be in virtually every How to Write Romance books. It really is THE thing to do, regardless of the setting. It might be formulaic and predictable, but most of the Romance Novel customers want it. Though, some writers have tried to break from it..."tried" being the key word.

    As for writing one, go for it. Seriously. A number of writers, male and female started out writing Romance novels under different names. It's not only a way to gain experience in writing...but also in the publishing/marketing process for writers. The trick is, you REALLY have to know the setting, because the regulars for that setting usually know more about the setting than beginning writer's do. And...of course, you'd have to make sure that the primary story is about the relationship...Will they get together? How? Why does she want him? Why does he want her? What kinds of things stand between them...and how do they overcome it all..together?


    Now, having said that. The downside to Romance Novels is that they are akin to relationship pornography for women. You know how a lot of women feel insecure because they don't match up to porn actresses/models? Well, just as men develop physical & sexual expectations from their porn, women develop partner & relationship expectationships from their romance novels. iow, this fiction genre helps to promote the demands and expectations for Alpha Males, which helps screw over the nice guys, and other forms that men come in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Those links were just from the first page when googling Romance Alpha Male. The same concept will be in virtually every How to Write Romance books. It really is THE thing to do, regardless of the setting. It might be formulaic and predictable, but most of the Romance Novel customers want it. Though, some writers have tried to break from it..."tried" being the key word.

    As for writing one, go for it. Seriously. A number of writers, male and female started out writing Romance novels under different names. It's not only a way to gain experience in writing...but also in the publishing/marketing process for writers. The trick is, you REALLY have to know the setting, because the regulars for that setting usually know more about the setting than beginning writer's do. And...of course, you'd have to make sure that the primary story is about the relationship...Will they get together? How? Why does she want him? Why does he want her? What kinds of things stand between them...and how do they overcome it all..together?
    Thanks for the awesome info! I guess I'll need to read a few successful romance novels before I start writing.

    Now, having said that. The downside to Romance Novels is that they are akin to relationship pornography for women. You know how a lot of women feel insecure because they don't match up to porn actresses/models? Well, just as men develop physical & sexual expectations from their porn, women develop partner & relationship expectationships from their romance novels. iow, this fiction genre helps to promote the demands and expectations for Alpha Males, which helps screw over the nice guys, and other forms that men come in.
    I see your point, but if I don't do it, someone else will. And nice guys are already at rock bottom in our society imo.
    Capitalism is the belief that the rich don't work hard when they don't earn enough, and that the poor don't work hard when they earn too much.

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