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Thread: IEEs, your SLIs & touch

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default IEEs, your SLIs & touch...

    IEEs with Duals: do you just have to touch your SLI Dual? Do you feel you just have to arouse him with touch sometimes? This seems to come from some primitive place in me, needing to "move" him by touching him, its like I am magnetically drawn to him, and its been so long since I have dated but I think its a particular SLI-yearning because I don't remember having the incredible compulsion to touch with my ESE-ex.

    Let me tell you some things about my Dual and touch, and I would like to know if any of this sounds familiar to you.

    And I am editing to say, this became a writing of my love story, but I really do want to know, IEE's, if you have these same impulses to touch and to highly value touch of your SLI dual.

    For those who don't like to read a wall of words, oh well, then don't read it. IEE's wont mind. And our minds are fast enough to skim.

    ____________________________

    First I have to say my SLI and I have this crazy aspect to us. We are trying to keep a certain distance till married, which will be asap but might be months yet, and it seems so confining to make this effort when we love each other, yet, we are both individually stalwart in our faith in God who loves us. And both of us, on our own, believe He asks this of us and that He wouldn't ask us to do anything that is not for our own good, and, we acknowledge He knows and sees things far greater than we can imagine, and so we obey even though it makes no sense... Yet though we intellectually and with faith acknowledge this, it does feel all wrong a lot of the time! And we do get weary of it, and sometimes we get just silly laughing about it sometimes ... and we have this ongoing joke about chaste/chased... [as in, "Oh! I thought you wanted to be chased!"]

    ...That's not what this post is about, but I think I wanted to clear that up anyway. Even though we have these highly unnatural limits to our touch at this time, we do feel everything anyone feels who is in love.

    Our story:

    We'd been writing about 8 years before we met, as "strictly" friends. However in the mountain of writing we did, even though the whole point for me was to have a male friend I could trust not to flirt with me, and even though he had the same ideas about having a strictly chaste friendship, we did flirt from time to time, and it was always about touch, it seems, or being naked. I wonder if that sounds like a theme with any of you IEE/SLI duals? I don't remember either of these themes with my ex, but SLI and I wrote on every kind of thing. Like we longed to know what each other had to say about everything. So once got onto writing to each other about the proper way to sunbathe - no clothes, of course - and we then kept returning to that, and it slipped how nice it would be to do that together. An arousing thought. And back then I remember sometimes daydreaming of his touch. I quickly tried to discipline myself by putting all these things out of my mind, and I quite forgot about that flirting we'd done when I finally met him years later.

    That hour I met him we talked at his home about all kinds of things and I found he was as easy to talk to as he was to write to. It was wonderful to put a face and a real person to my friend of long correspondence who I intended to keep as just friends, as, I was happily in the midst of a longtime-effort to be happy alone - and thought I was doing quite well at it. And I should feel more so convicted about remaining friends now upon meeting him (just after a break in our correspondence when both our lives got complicated) when he tells me "I am a ruin" and truly felt it of himself. Not the kind of future I was imagining for myself!

    Yes, so, I was quite sure where I stood with him, and meeting him was real nice, but, I was in quite a hurry to get on the road. But before I could rush off, he interrupted me with a request -- one he'd been thinking up at the end of our conversation, as I realized later when I remembered and analyzed every.last.detail. of this life-changing moment, and remembered his quick-thinking eyes at one point just before what came:

    He said, "Would you pray the Angelus with me?" I was startled by the sudden passion in his voice, and suddenly I felt shy, and sputtered, "Um, yeah, I guess, I used to pray it but I don't know if I remember it all," and he said "Its okay!" and grabbed my two hands in his, and he led us in the back-and-forth prayer,

    "The Angel of the Lord declared unto Mary"
    "and she conceived of the Holy Spirit"
    ...

    And I was caught up in awe. Our voices, so beautiful together, were the angels praying with us? And his hands, oh, those hands, enfolding mine, it was magic. Later, back home in my state, remembering, I though his hands were huge. But they weren't, they are average-size hands, but they still remain to me the most magical hands. That moment, his touch - it pulled me in. It completely changed my life for good.

    And we finished the prayers, and he hugged me, a quick, chaste hug, but something about it, this tiny movement where he moved me slightly to where he wanted me to be, a split second before we hugged - it was very quick, very brief, nonsexual, but so sure and direct, and something about that move, that hug** and those hands woke all of me up, and when he turned to walk away, I didn't want him to go. Minutes before, wanting to hurry off, I had no such feeling. But now, I never wanted to part. It was so crazy I had to force myself to go, get in the car, continue with my plan. But this feeling did not shake off, not that night, not the next morning, a week went by and it would not go away and in fact it was much worse! And I wrote to him angrily, "You did this to me on purpose!"

    I didn't want love and I didn't want attachment. I thought he plotted this. You are too clever for me, I accused.

    [**as to that hug, it confirmed what I thought the first time I laid eyes on him in his doorway,. "Oh! He has nice eyes!", I thought. "Nicer than his pictures." And, "I like his physicality". And I shocked myself with that thought! I never evaluate people like that, I never used that word before. What made me think that, I wondered?]

    Much later I read this article, when I was wondering why I could not shake this love that made no sense and had so many obstacles, and trying to understand his type I stumbled upon Socionics and then the Duality explained it all . So this is why God would let this happen! Here is the actual definable good in this. And now I had this thirst to learn everything about Duality in order to explain this crazy upset in my life. And then when I came across so this article http://www.socionika.com/experiencin...relations.htmland its list "When Duals Meet", I finally felt some peace now to have an explanation for those feelings that made no sense stemming from that day.

    Yes, so it was SLI's touch that pulled me in. I wonder if he had not done that, if I had left without any touch, would we be where we are today? Likely not!

    I thought I would see him in springtime. I had not been moved by music in so many years - I think it was the PTSD I was just healed of just before I met SLI - and now a Sophie Hawkins song moved me to my core - the whistle of a train (I could hear every night from my room while I thought of SLI), springtime, barefoot, run to meet him, yes, I would do that [we had walked barefoot in the grass in his yard, and I noticed how much softer the ground was than in my state]. And her happy, light voice - it was the very voice of how this love made me feel. And these repeated words sang what my heart felt every night when I hit the bed, as I now so looked forward to bed, alone in my room, to falling asleep with him - and his touch - in my thoughts:

    As I lay me down to sleep
    This I pray
    That you will hold me dear
    Though I'm far away
    I'll whisper your name
    Into the sky
    And I will wake up happy


    and my heart longed for him to call my name. Happy... My heart was so happy thinking of him.



    But it was October I met him, and I soon realized I could not possibly wait til far-off summer, "till the sun comes out again", to see him. December- time came and I was miserable. I had to see him. Maybe I could get rid of this that was disrupting my life, once and for all. Either that or get the confirmation I needed that this was real. I just knew I could not live like this til summer. My next school break was - February. It could blizzard. But I could try, maybe it wouldn't. I wrote. "What would you think if I came to visit for a week in February? I could stay at the Abbey nearby and come visit you." "Well, its awfully soon, but, if you think so", he said. Yes, I thought so. So February, mindful of those words "February morning" in that song, became what I lived for now.

    So I went. Stayed at a beautiful holy place, and visited him by day, finding it hard to part at night. Talking with him was again so easy. And I longed for times to touch him. We would sit on the couch together and I woudl be as close as possible, blissful happy to rest my head on him and stroke his chest and feel his skin under his shirt and kiss his lips. I remember driving to Mass at the Abbey with him down this long and beautiful tree-lined lane and he was talking, talking, and I wanted him to stop and I stopped the car (yes, I was driving, as, part of his "ruin" is not having a car OR license now; he let it expire) and I think he was talking only to fill the space like a nervous thing, but I wanted quiet to enjoy his closeness, so I pulled over just to hold and kiss his hand, his beautiful hands.

    Next visit at Easter I stayed at his house, to save money, and the time and gas of driving back and forth. His grown daughter was home, that would keep us "honest". But wouldn't you know we found time to be alone anyway, found time to lay on his bed together, so much nicer than the couch. That visit we learned how we need to plan ahead not to have things go were our head tells us we don't want to go... our standard for before-married is "brother and sister" and we can't honestly say we kept that, and we found our desires are akin to children who want to open all the packages before Christmas... So we hastily wrapped some back up and are trying to save them all till "Christmas", and not open any more...

    And it remains a theme with us, we just want to touch, we long to get naked, and we just have to wait. I truly believe that I will never ever tire of his touch. My ex rejected my touch almost from our wedding day. Yes, from the wedding day because I had to talk him into being with me on the wedding night. Yes, we were tired from the reception but I longed to be with him, and he wanted sleep since there was brunch with his family in the morning... Anyway, I later learned this is what Narcissists do - they use sexuality to get the girl but once they are sure they have her its too much work to keep up. I didn't know why my husband tired of touch, it made me very sad and insecure but I came to accept that that's what happens when you marry... even though, I would see evidence over the years that this didn't happen to all other couples. It always confused me when I noticed that, and made me long. And after many years of loneliness, when my marraige was completely deteriorated, I began to write to SLI, strictly as just friends. But I found myself at times secretly longing for his touch, and we said things to each other, scarcely alluding, that made me think he felt the same.

    So you see, touch has been the constant under-story the whole time with SLI, and still is, and I do have this most-sure feeling that I will never tire of his touch. Today I was feeling such anxiety, and could not talk myself out of it, and thought: if we were married, SLI could make me forget it all with his touch.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    If this yearning to touch an SLI is an IEE thing, I'm in good luck because my IEE friend, when she saw the SLI I'm setting her up with couldn't stop putting out the "notice me" signs; she was speaking louder than usual and she was jumping around in front of him...so cute

    it's like a peacock spreading his/this case her feathers for attention.

    Aw, I wish sometimes I could show noticeable signs of interest; like flirting, loud tones, jumping around. I'm so damp in that department. I just stand around and hope to be grabbed off the market I'm sorry, just reminded of this.

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    I don't think it's type-related, to be honest (I might be wrong). It sounds more like a combination of having been in a physically distant relationship with the ESE and the anticipation of physical intimacy while trying to not engage in sexual behavior with the SLI.

    I like to touch my partner, but when I look back at relationships, my attitude towards touching and being touched had nothing to do with my or their type.

    Good for you though!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    If this yearning to touch an SLI is an IEE thing, I'm in good luck because my IEE friend, when she saw the SLI I'm setting her up with couldn't stop putting out the "notice me" signs; she was speaking louder than usual and she was jumping around in front of him...so cute

    it's like a peacock spreading his/this case her feathers for attention.

    Aw, I wish sometimes I could show noticeable signs of interest; like flirting, loud tones, jumping around. I'm so damp in that department. I just stand around and hope to be grabbed off the market I'm sorry, just reminded of this.
    I thought you have been grabbed off the market?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I thought you have been grabbed off the market?
    I have, I mean in general.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    If this yearning to touch an SLI is an IEE thing, I'm in good luck because my IEE friend, when she saw the SLI I'm setting her up with couldn't stop putting out the "notice me" signs; she was speaking louder than usual and she was jumping around in front of him...so cute

    it's like a peacock spreading his/this case her feathers for attention.

    Aw, I wish sometimes I could show noticeable signs of interest; like flirting, loud tones, jumping around. I'm so damp in that department. I just stand around and hope to be grabbed off the market I'm sorry, just reminded of this.
    I don't think I ever gave overtly noticeable signs of interest. I definitely don't get loud. I would just HAVE the interest, and sneak looks, trying not to be seen looking, and they would catch it. That's what I remember most. It was so long ago though because once I was unhappily married I made a huge effot not to even look at guys who might be interesting.

    But in college I remember one time of being overt, but it was in silliness, not out of serious interest in anyone. It was at the commuter college, My ESE friend wanted me to go to the college bar with her but I was not feeling up to more time in my white knit dress I'd worn all day, and she said lets trade, I am sick of these jeans and flannel shirt, I will wear the pretty dress and you get comfortable, so we switched and both felt better and we went in being overtly and silly flirtatious as we shared beer with a huge table-full of guys from college, like 15 of them, sitting on laps and then kissing them all goodbye when we left, one at a time, all around the table, something I cannot even imagine ever doing on my own or even thinking of, but I was joining in with ESE, just slipping into her ways for the night, and it was fun.....

    But on my own, it was only subtle signs of interest, and not on purpose, either. Since my face is so readable if i was interested I would have to make great effort to hide it.

    But alone with my SLI I know how to show him my interest and I am boldly provoking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I have, I mean in general.
    Cool! Is it the guy from the coffee shop???

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    The Quiet Individualist Waster's Avatar
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    Hands off ladies.

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    Not type related, just the normal human reaction if you're deprived of any loving touch for a while.

    Oxytocin ect.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    IEEs often impersonate limpits during relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    IEEs often impersonate limpits during relationships.
    Definitely VIs as


    scribbles in the dark

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    One thing i want to remind everyone about, in the midst of this romantie reverie, is that dual relationships dont necessarily have to be romantic ones. Duals does not always equal romance or eroticism or even need to be. I think that aspect of socionics is way overplayed.

    You can experience romance with a nondual, and have a totally awesome platonic relationship with a dual, or even a great professional relationship with a dual boss or employee, neither of latter of which have any romantic feelings involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    Definitely VIs as
    IEE on SLI actionz.





    *Averts gaze*
    *Fans self*

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    [NSFW]

    scribbles in the dark

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    First I have to say my SLI and I have this crazy aspect to us. We are trying to keep a certain distance till married, which will be asap but might be months yet, and it seems so confining to make this effort when we love each other, yet, we are both individually stalwart in our faith in God who loves us. And both of us, on our own, believe He asks this of us and that He wouldn't ask us to do anything that is not for our own good, and, we acknowledge He knows and sees things far greater than we can imagine, and so we obey even though it makes no sense... Yet though we intellectually and with faith acknowledge this, it does feel all wrong a lot of the time! And we do get weary of it, and sometimes we get just silly laughing about it sometimes ... and we have this ongoing joke about chaste/chased... [as in, "Oh! I thought you wanted to be chased!"]
    Nobody gives a damn about you touching or not. It just seems like you both have an inflated sense of self importance aka culturally inherited Jewish (Beta) narcissism. If such an entity actually existed, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't give a damn either. Heck, it would just be background noise in the immensity of the Universe.

    All in all, only schizophrenics believe in beings that can't be seen and arrange their lives according to that. Your call.
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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    ^ Someone seems like he has not been touched in awhile. Massages are my favorite choice.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Nobody gives a damn about you touching or not.
    SLI and I do .

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    It just seems like you both have an inflated sense of self importance aka culturally inherited Jewish (Beta) narcissism.
    Every soul is of infinite importance. One can hardly inflate infinity. And, not Jewish. And we're Delta, not Beta. SLE son is Beta, but he's not Jewish, either. But I have lived a good part of my life in a town with a sizable Jewish community, and wonder what you have against Jewish.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    If such an entity actually existed, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't give a damn either. Heck, it would just be background noise in the immensity of the Universe.
    God, Who created the universe, and you, exists, and He cares about every single little thing about you. His immense and Sacred Heart swells with compassion for even the slightest disappointment you experience and with gladness for your joys. And if you were the only being on earth, He would have died that horrible death for you alone, because He loves you so infinitely much. And His great desire is for you, His Beloved, to live with Him forever in eternity.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    All in all, only schizophrenics believe in beings that can't be seen and arrange their lives according to that. Your call.
    LOL, assuming you are not schizo, just wondering: Do you believe in the wind? Because you can't see it. Do you believe in love? Because you can't see that either.

    Your post is odd since IEE's outlooks are usually broad enough to entertain the idea of other people's ways of thinking. However you do sound angry. And I haven't met an atheist yet who didn't display anger and hostility when they mention God (even when they take care not to name Him!).

    May God bless you, mikemex!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    ^ Someone seems like he has not been touched in awhile. Massages are my favorite choice.
    Mikemex needs a lot, so your efforts won't be lost.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    IEEs often impersonate limpits during relationships.
    Conical snails?
    Sounds Absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    One thing i want to remind everyone about, in the midst of this romantic reverie, is that dual relationships don't necessarily have to be romantic ones. Duals does not always equal romance or eroticism or even need to be. I think that aspect of Socionics is way overplayed.

    You can experience romance with a non-dual, and have a totally awesome platonic relationship with a dual, or even a great professional relationship with a dual boss or employee, neither of latter of which have any romantic feelings involved.
    Totally true! I have a SLI brother and my Dad was SLI and I enjoyed very comfortable conflict-free relationships with them both. But maybe that made me take such a relationship for granted, as I never went looking for a "type" like them. In fact, for a husband, I picked someone more like my Supervisee Mom, the conflict-relationship in my life. (Some say you marry your conflict parent in order to resolve that conflict if it has not been resolved -- and most of us do not spend our young adulthood resolving old parental conflicts). And I never made the connection between them and my SLI when SLI and I wrote those years. I was never Dual-seeking since I didn't know what that was.

    Also I have a female SLI friend these recent years I met at one of our sons' wrestling tournaments. I had met her SLI (I think) Dad at an earlier match and he introduced me to his wife and SLI daughter next time I saw him, and she and I struck up instant comfortable conversation and have been good friends since. We are the same but different, like Duals. She is a state employee boat captain, and does ALL the boat maintenance, welding, creating new parts, weaving giant rope bumpers, everything ship-shape) in the off-season herself - she is self-taught! (went to college for Graphic Design!). Oh and she doesn't practice religion like me, (while my SLI does, and my SLI brother and Dad did not) and she told me once when I suggested she pray about something that "I don't really pray", and I just said, "Ok, I will pray for you." Which she appreciates.

    Maybe the greater question is, can you have a totally platonic close relationship with an unrelated person of the opposite sex (assuming you are straight)? My grandmother used to insist to me that a girl just can't. I used to disagree, but in hindsight its seems to me she could have had a point there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I don't think it's type-related, to be honest (I might be wrong). It sounds more like a combination of having been in a physically distant relationship with the ESE and the anticipation of physical intimacy while trying to not engage in sexual behavior with the SLI...
    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Not type related, just the normal human reaction if you're deprived of any loving touch for a while.
    Oxytocin ect.
    I can see why this connection would be made but I don't know if that's really it. I feel confident we will benefit something from this discipline (because all that comes from God is good) but I have no idea what that is, and I am not so sure that the "good" will simply be akin to savoring a glass of water after a long thirst.

    I do expect a reward someday, though, because this effort for Him is hard, and I know that I cannot possibly out-give God. Even misinformed giving to God, like the many years I lived in oppressing submission to the will of an unloving, selfish husband, a choice I made because I was mistakenly convinced it was God's will for me. God understands our errors in thinking and He honors the intent of our hearts. And I truly believe my SLI is my reward now for that.

    But as to the thirst-thing not being the reason, here's why. Plenty of lovers have longtime active sex lives and only get more deeply connected and more deeply crave one another's physical affections. And it would be much harder sexually for one who enjoyed a long and loving sex life with his spouse when he/she dies and he is suddenly without that. His thirst woudl be far greater than the thirst of one who just got used to living without...

    I (and SLI too) was one quite used to my way of life, doing without, having long since accepted it. I did not feel a great thirst. That's why I feel it has something to do with Si-seeking or something, instead of thirst. And I know it has to do with love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I (and SLI too) was one quite used to my way of life, doing without, having long since accepted it. I did not feel a great thirst. That's why I feel it has something to do with Si-seeking or something, instead of thirst. And I know it has to do with love.
    Yes, but now you are with someone who you want to touch and who wants to touch you. When you are in love AND you try to abstain from something you naturally want, of course the longing and the effect will be greater. I really don't think it's type-related.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Yes, but now you are with someone who you want to touch and who wants to touch you. When you are in love AND you try to abstain from something you naturally want, of course the longing and the effect will be greater. I really don't think it's type-related.
    Very true. And yes, might not be type-related.

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    Absurd in thread. Absurd thread.

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    I wouldn't mind being touched by some enfp's.

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    Liek roll, rolls.

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Oh i completely understand, i was once deprived of proper kissing in a four year relationship.... oh how i daydreamed of kisses!

    It sounds very sweet actually and i am really happy for you both to have found each other. It does seem that you have had this going on at a very slow build pace for a long time. Best of love!

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    "Your SLI" sounds like some sort of personal property. I'm lucky no own owns ME... yet.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    "Your SLI" sounds like some sort of personal property.
    Yeah, it sounds silly. Its a way of preserving his privacy and mine so I can feel safe to write as freely as I want (something I value). I have been pretty vigilant about my online privacy since my custody battle some years back. I have been thinking I should let up a bit and I might eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I'm lucky no own owns ME... yet.
    Yes, you SLIs are careful in that way and you should be. All of the ones I know take their commitment to marraige (or serious girlfriend, in the case of my brother*) very seriously, which is wonderful with the right person, and awfully hard on SLI with the wrong one.


    ____________________
    *He had a very close long-term girlfriend beginning the end of high school and broke it off with her after quite some time, and moved across country. After establishing himself he met his wife, together some years till: surprise, she left (looking for adventure and newness I gather). Now after some time he has a new serious girlfriend. But no talk of marraige for him, having experienced that and is wary now. Just a serious loyal commitment he says. She seems real nice. I notice they all 3 seem are SEEs. As if he knew what to work with from the first one and kept the pattern...

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    SLI and I do .
    Have you heard the expression "white people issues"? It was coined by blacks in the US describing the accommodated lifestyle of middle class whites who lose the ground and begin to worry about the most meaningless stuff. Like you're doing right now, worrying about maintaining some sense of "purity" imposed by an imaginary entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Every soul is of infinite importance. One can hardly inflate infinity.
    Important to who? See, are you even aware that people die all the time? And I'm not talking about grandmas and grandpas that die peacefully in their beds surrounded by their families. I'm talking about those who, as we speak, are dying from hunger, curable diseases, armed conflicts, slavery, etc. I don't think you care that much about them. Actually, since there is no entity watching us out there when humans do not apply their efforts to preserve life, things just flow naturally. Like this tale of a child I'm reading now, who fell into a cave and died from thirst. There is no morality in the natural world, just indifference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    And, not Jewish. And we're Delta, not Beta. SLE son is Beta, but he's not Jewish, either. But I have lived a good part of my life in a town with a sizable Jewish community, and wonder what you have against Jewish.
    I have nothing against any group in particular, be it betas, Jewish or whatever. I just mentioned it because you didn't even come with such ideas yourself; you simply acquired them from your environment. And you assume, wrongly, that just because people over there agrees with you out of sympathy, social conformance or mere courtesy, then your belief is given any more credit than being an illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    God, Who created the universe, and you, exists, and He cares about every single little thing about you. His immense and Sacred Heart swells with compassion for even the slightest disappointment you experience and with gladness for your joys. And if you were the only being on earth, He would have died that horrible death for you alone, because He loves you so infinitely much. And His great desire is for you, His Beloved, to live with Him forever in eternity.
    Nice parroting. Now, It would be interesting if you tell me how you did come with the idea that there was a god and that such god created the Universe. How is it possible that god himself didn't know that human emotions come from the brain and not the heart. And finally, how exactly do you know what he wants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    LOL, assuming you are not schizo, just wondering: Do you believe in the wind? Because you can't see it. Do you believe in love? Because you can't see that either.
    The difference between a schizophrenic and a religious person is simply in the numbers: when lots of people believe what you believe, then suddenly it's not absurd (!). Religion is political in nature in case you didn't know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Your post is odd since IEE's outlooks are usually broad enough to entertain the idea of other people's ways of thinking. However you do sound angry. And I haven't met an atheist yet who didn't display anger and hostility when they mention God (even when they take care not to name Him!).

    May God bless you, mikemex!
    I understand the way you think, it's called social conformism. You don't give it that much importance to check if what you believe in is all bullshit; you're more interested in being accepted in the community you live in by adopting its values. You prefer to run with the crowd instead of being yourself.

    The problem with adopting external ideas is that you may not understand them in full. You only know the most superficial (and false) aspect of Christianity. It is not a religion of love and acceptance as you think. It's an idea, a meme, that pretends to have the Ultimate Truth.

    What's the problem with that? Well, that the mere suggestion of such concept in any shape or form is an offense because it automatically negates all other options. And there I find it funny that you accuse me of being closed minded when it is you who embraces a religion based on intolerance. You may be pretty harmless but it's obvious that you don't pay much attention to History where it is written what the Church have done with the legitimacy that comes from that Ultimate Truth. Atrocities.

    And I also laugh when you're the one who is convinced that you understand such complex issues like the origin of the Universe and its operation. I don't claim to know that.

    Just to finish, I'm not angry at all. I'm just an individual; something you don't come across with often it seems. I do pay attention to what you write and call things by name.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ... "white people issues" ...middle class whites...
    Not middle class white:
    2165fd7f3c50db19380f6a706700b71a.jpg913f385b3c58db19380f6a706700b831.jpgb79bbc7f3c6ddb19380f6a706700884e.jpg
    Its pretty universal, across time and space.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ... you who embraces a religion based on intolerance... .
    Those intolerant Catholics!
    4ebc8fae3a57d219380f6a706700943b.jpgmother%u00252Bteresa%2Bhelping%2Bsick.jpgWEB-SR-AYRE-AND-KIDS.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Hey, Mike, you don't sound much like a "Subtle Psychologist" in these posts. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ... the most meaningless stuff. Like you're doing right now, worrying about maintaining some sense of "purity" imposed by an imaginary entity.
    Tell that to these people:
    Attachment 2207 wysocki3.jpg Attachment 220818_benedict.jpg Attachment 2209 br-vagrius.jpghopewalkblueridge062609.jpg monks.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Important to who? See, are you even aware that people die all the time? And I'm not talking about grandmas and grandpas that die peacefully in their beds surrounded by their families. I'm talking about those who, as we speak, are dying from hunger, curable diseases, armed conflicts, slavery, etc. I don't think you care that much about them. Actually, since there is no entity watching us out there when humans do not apply their efforts to preserve life, things just flow naturally. Like this tale of a child I'm reading now, who fell into a cave and died from thirst. There is no morality in the natural world, just indifference.
    Yes, it is true there is much evil in the world. Its an age old question and you are not the first to ask it and there are profound answers. God cares for every one of those souls. Most especially the suffering.



    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I have nothing against any group in particular, be it betas, Jewish or whatever. I just mentioned it because you didn't even come with such ideas yourself; you simply acquired them from your environment. And you assume, wrongly, that just because people over there agrees with you out of sympathy, social conformance or mere courtesy, then your belief is given any more credit than being an illusion.
    Do you think that joyful crowd13745915441961_700.jpg121012c.jpgwho came out to see this guy, 5cb2f90065d83b18380f6a706700cd10.jpg the Vicar of Christ on earth, 266th successor of the Apostle Peter are, as you assume about me, there because of social conformity, because they want to be agreed with our of sympathy, because they like politics? That doesn't explain the joy I see on these faces.





    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Nice parroting. Now, It would be interesting if you tell me how you did come with the idea that there was a god and that such god created the Universe. How is it possible that god himself didn't know that human emotions come from the brain and not the heart. And finally, how exactly do you know what he wants?.
    He came to earth as man so we could know Him and He gave us His word and He gave us a church, which will stand for all of time, even though fallible human beings run it, it will exist until the last day. And through that Church He pours out extraordinary graces. We are more than flesh and blood; we have a soul, too, and our souls need to be fed. "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Also evidence of God is in every beautiful and good thing. God promises that if we seek Him we will know Him. And if you don't seek Him, well, that is an obstacle. But He seeks you. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him, and he with Me." He is like a gentlemen, Mike, He won't make you hear him, ordinarily, He waits til He is invited. God has great respect for our free will. It is a great gift that we are free to misuse. The misuse is why you see evil in the world. But there is much good in the world, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The difference between a schizophrenic and a religious person is simply in the numbers: when lots of people believe what you believe, then suddenly it's not absurd (!). Religion is political in nature in case you didn't know it.
    No I don't think so. Personally I am more religious than most and less political than most.

    Also I am editing this to add I its rare around lots of like-minded people. Usually I am around lots of people who don't believe what I believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I understand the way you think, it's called social conformism. You don't give it that much importance to check if what you believe in is all bullshit; you're more interested in being accepted in the community you live in by adopting its values. You prefer to run with the crowd instead of being yourself.
    No one who knows me would call me a social conformist. Believe me, I have put a lot of deep thought into what I believe, and with the grace of God I woudl die for what I believe rather than deny it. As legions have before me. It is a wonder, why would people die for something they did not deeply believe in?? See, what you are saying here makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The problem with adopting external ideas is that you may not understand them in full. You only know the most superficial (and false) aspect of Christianity.
    Christianity is truth. Everything the Catholic Church truly teaches is true. That I would lay down my life for, and with God's grace I would not be a coward. The Catholic Church is huge over time and space, so its easy to find false followers and false sayings about what we believe. As well as enemies who for their own purposes misrepresent what She truly teaches. We are everyone, every race, every age, every circumstance and we are every kind of saint and every kind of sinner. Because Baptism does not make one a Saint, but it does make one Catholic. And with the will of a person turned to God and with His graces, persons can and do imitate Christ and become Saints.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    It is not a religion of love and acceptance as you think.
    Why do you think this?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    It's an idea, a meme, that pretends to have the Ultimate Truth.
    Deos not pretend. Claims to. And I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    What's the problem with that? Well, that the mere suggestion of such concept in any shape or form is an offense because it automatically negates all other options.
    Hmm, not sure what you are saying here. Can you give an example?


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ... it's obvious that you don't pay much attention to History where it is written what the Church have done with the legitimacy that comes from that Ultimate Truth. Atrocities.
    Really. Tell me. But make sure you are not telling me about hypocrites whose lives and words and actions have NO REFLECTION at ALL on what the Church teaches, and only use false words to connect themselves with the faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    And I also laugh when you're the one who is convinced that you understand such complex issues like the origin of the Universe and its operation. I don't claim to know that.
    Sometimes the simplest people know the most profound things. God is like that a lot, giving his great truths to the simple which confound the wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Just to finish, I'm not angry at all. I'm just an individual; something you don't come across with often it seems. I do pay attention to what you write and call things by name.
    I appreciate your honest responses. I think you have misread me. I have great respect for individuality. One thing I love about my Church is the great diversity of individuals as well as spiritual practices.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 07-29-2013 at 02:04 AM.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @mikemex, Prayer is something you cannot see but it holds the world together. People pray because its so efficacious. God hears, and He answers. People dedicate their whole lives to prayer. I believe they save the world from those who dedicate their whole lives to evil. We all need the prayers of those who sacrifice their lives to pray for us.

    monks.jpg
    I have met some of the monks in that picture, and I know their faces, such good and holy men, their lives completely given to work and prayer. I annually retreat at their retreat house near they Abbey where they are cloistered. The retreat-ants can join their prayers, psalms and hymns, sung and chanted at set times of the day, in a multi-century-old tradition. Its really a thousands of years-old tradition, because the first Christians followed the example of Jesus and His Apostles of set times to pray psalms and praise God together daily, who followed this centuries-old tradition of the Jewish faith. [from Psalms: "in the morning I offer you my prayer"; "At midnight I will rise and thank you" ; "Evening, morning and at noon I will cry and lament"; "Seven times a day I praise you".]. The monks and nuns do just that, praising 7 times a day, and rising in the night, every night, to pray. Here is a schedule:

    Matins (during the night, at midnight with some); also called Vigils or the Night Office
    Lauds or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
    Prime or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
    Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
    Sext
    or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 noon)
    None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
    Vespers or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
    Compline or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)

    They faithfully pray and chant these songs and sing hymns at all these hours every single day! Then they work, and they work because they don't take handouts, they give them. They earn their own living and live simple lives according to their vow of poverty so they can give money to many charities. It is not a life for the lazy or faint-hearted! What a witness these people are.

    By witness I mean, if there was really nothing to it, how could so many people dedicate their whole lives to this? In an unbroken line of centuries?? Beginning in the first couple (few?) thousand years with just the nation of Israel. Then after Christ this Jewish tradition quickly became worldwide, with people are praising God and praying these psalms at every moment of every hour in all nations these two thousand years.

    My SLI has prayed the shorter version - 3x daily - of Divine Office (what these prayers are called, also called, "Liturgy of the Hours" or "The Breviary") daily for thirty years. All priests and religious pray some form of the Divine Office at set times through the day every single day.

    And these cloistered monks and nuns keep to this rigorous schedule, including getting up in the middle of the night for the longer form. Prayer first, and they fit their life around prayer times, including working to pay their own way and to give. No one does this if there is not fruit in it. It blesses them, and they keep to their blessed life of blessing the whole world.

    If they did not get back from these prayers offered to God, they would give it up. There are easier ways to live! But God gives them back. I know for certain from my own life that you cannot out-give God.

    Monks and nuns have Monasteries and Abbeys throughout every state and in practically every country in the world. Almost all of them have retreat houses. Anyone can retreat with them. They are always in a peaceful place, and normally have simple bedrooms and simple meals are provided and the fees are low, usually in the form of a suggested offering; what you can afford - they won't turn anyone away.

    So it is a wonderful place to go for peace and to think. No one will proselytize you. You don't have to be Catholic. You can be any faith, or have no faith. You can choose to meet with a priest while you are there or not. Usually some form of silence is practiced, and you can join the religious in their Divine Office at the set times. Even night vigils if you can take it!

    Its is heavenly-beautiful and it truly ministers to your spirit. Remember in Sound of Music when they hear the monks chanting from the hills? It has always been. And you cannot go away without being deeply touched. It will make you know you have a spirit and a soul if there is any question in your mind. I have so often heard stories of atheists who weren't such atheists after a simple stay at an abbey, after witnessing or speaking to or working alongside these gentle holy people through whom the light of Christ shines. To see them is to know something of the peace of God, that peace that comes from heaven, that makes no worldly sense...

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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    This thread was better with more limpits and less preaching.

    Religion is a personal problem, not a societal one.

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason:

    I've read (with some effort) all what you wrote and I conclude the following:

    1) That there are lots of Christans.
    A: Yes.
    2) That it's an old tradition.
    A: Yes.
    3) That many Christians are very happy.
    A: Yes.
    4) That there is Christianity everywhere.
    A: No. Christianity comprises around 30% of the world population, which means that 70% of the population of world doesn't believe in it. Even by numbers Soccer Football is far more Universal than Christianity.

    Everything what you wrote revolves around the fact that there is a lot of people who is a Christian and who like to share their belief because they consider it something good.

    I'm happy for them but:

    A) Big numbers don't make an idea any more valid. Do I need to remind you that people used to believe the world was flat not so long ago?
    B) Your arguments only reinforces my statement that you're a social conformist. You feel your belief is valid simply because lots of people share it with you. Or because it's an old tradition, etc.
    C) My statement remains true: religions are political in nature. Political is anything that involves more than one individual because it requires agreement, rules, etc.

    See Eliza, it's pretty simple. I asked you a question you didn't answer before: how did Eliza Thomanson came out with the idea that there was a god and all the details that you've given me before (that he loves us, that he wants us to pray, that we should do it xx times a day, or week, etc.)?

    I don't know your particular details of course but the answer I'm expecting (if you're honest to yourself) is in the lines of:

    * I learned the idea of the existence of a god from my parents first and from the Church later.

    And I would respond with an obvious answer:

    * How did your parents came out with that idea?

    And then you would give me an answer in the lines of:

    * They learned the idea of the existence of a god from their parents first and from the Church later.

    Do you begin to see a pattern here? Hitler once said that a lie becomes truth if it's repeated enough. You may do well to read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
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    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    @Eliza Thomason:...

    I've read (with some effort) all what you wrote
    Wow, I appreciate your making the effort. Not everyone would.

    But really, Mike: How do you feel about it all???
    See, I don't think you are IEE. You have a good analytical mind. You are one of those T guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ...and I conclude the following:

    1) That there are lots of Christans.
    A: Yes.
    2) That it's an old tradition.
    A: Yes.
    3) That many Christians are very happy.
    A: Yes.
    4) That there is Christianity everywhere.
    A: No. Christianity comprises around 30% of the world population,
    Only 30%? In this world that you see so much evil and sorrow in? Hmm. Maybe you are right.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    which means that 70% of the population of world doesn't believe in it. Even by numbers Soccer Football is far more Universal than Christianity.
    Something is seriously wrong with that comparison. SO many ways that's wrong.

    Tell me, how much charity work does Soccer offer the world? How many sick are cured? How many starving are fed? How many lives does it change?

    Oh, brother. Soccer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Everything what you wrote revolves around the fact that there is a lot of people who is a Christian and who like to share their belief because they consider it something good.
    Not just share a belief but order their entire lives around it. Suffer for it. Die for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I'm happy for them but:
    A feeling!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    A) Big numbers don't make an idea any more valid. Do I need to remind you that people used to believe the world was flat not so long ago?
    Well, what I wrote was not just about big numbers. Numbers do mean something though. People believe what scientists tell them, yes, so when scientist say its flat, they say, okay, looks flat, must be. Just like scientists say, God doesn't exist, I can't see him in my science experiment. And people say, okay, right, scientist said it.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    B) Your arguments only reinforces my statement that you're a social conformist. You feel your belief is valid simply because lots of people share it with you. Or because it's an old tradition, etc.
    Actually Mike that's not it at all. I am not a social conformist. My ideas come from within. Well I might hear them from without but they must resonate within me, or I reject them. The Negativist in me is very mistrusting of social norms.

    Its even odd that you would say that because what I shared on this thread on "waiting" I did almost apologetically because its so "un-normal" these days that I felt I had to explain it, even justify it when I took care to explain that we both already felt this way of our own accord. Its not something I thought people would agree with, I just hoped they would just shrug and say, "everybody's different". Because I actually hate not fitting in. But I am very willing not to if its to stand behind what I truly believe.

    But instead you took off on it and scoffed at our reason behind the choice - faith. I was actually avoiding defending my faith but I definitely won't shirk from it either. So I am trying. But you can be sure I won't be approaching the subject from a Ti viewpoint. Surprise. IEE.

    I have just been reading Sheldon Vanauken again and he was once such an avid atheist, as was his friend C.S.Lewis. After he realized his brilliant physicist friends somehow had firm faith he decided he needed to look into it some day - just to be intellectually honest, though it couldn't be true. So he did give it an honest look, and, kicking and screaming on the way, became Christian. And remained steadfast (and intellectual) all his life. He tells his story of that journey in a little booklet "Encounter with Light" that can be read online in various places.

    I find his journey from Atheism really interesting though its a journey I never took. I did take a journey to Christ though, and then later, beyond, to the Church He established and promised his Holy Spirit would be with til the end of time, and the whole way it all involved standing up to social norms that were dear to me. And it caused this people-pleaser to have to displease a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    My statement remains true: religions are political in nature. Political is anything that involves more than one individual because it requires agreement, rules, etc.
    Okay, I will take that definition of the word for communication purposes. Yes, my Catholic Church is a good example of an organization that requires agreement, has rules. As to agreement, we have this: 121012b.jpg That would be the Catechism and the Bible; its all there. And rules: we have Dogma. Lots of Doctrine, too, and then there is Theology, some bad, some brilliant, but the Dogma stuff - that's the non-negotiables.

    Saints fit in there, too, somehow. They show us by their lives how to live a truly Catholic life, in a thousands of unique ways. And they want to be our friend, too. They will intercede for us, even bring miracles! I have had their help on many occasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    See Eliza, it's pretty simple. I asked you a question you didn't answer before: how did Eliza Thomanson came out with the idea that there was a god and all the details that you've given me before (that he loves us, that he wants us to pray, that we should do it xx times a day, or week, etc.)?
    I would love to answer that question. It will take some writing though. I wonder if I should put it here, or in another part of the forum? Either way, I need some time, to sleep, to do some chores and errands tomorrow, before I can write. But I will. And thanks for asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I don't know your particular details of course but the answer I'm expecting (if you're honest to yourself) is in the lines of:

    * I learned the idea of the existence of a god from my parents first and from the Church later.

    And I would respond with an obvious answer:

    * How did your parents came out with that idea?

    And then you would give me an answer in the lines of:

    * They learned the idea of the existence of a god from their parents first and from the Church later.
    Yes, we learn by hearing. But at some point, we have to take it as our own. That's a choice, and that's where the story is. And it is often said that you can't call the faith of your childhood your own until you reject it first. Seems to be true in many cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Do you begin to see a pattern here? Hitler once said that a lie becomes truth if it's repeated enough.
    You know what, Mike? There are better people to get quotes from!

    One of my favorites is Honest Abe's: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all of the people all of the time."

    And I would tag that onto what Hitler said. He did fool all the people some of the time. But the people are not fooled all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    You may do well to read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
    Okay, I will read it at some point. Then I will have one for you, too.

    P.S. For now, here is a nice link:http://abbeyofreginalaudis.org/community-mdh.html I met her, and have stayed at that Abbey. Her eyes are really that blue. She truly has the joy of life in her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post

    Something is seriously wrong with that comparison. SO many ways that's wrong.

    Tell me, how much charity work does Soccer offer the world? How many sick are cured? How many starving are fed? How many lives does it change?
    How many women has soccer killed because it forbids abortion even in cases in which the mother's life is in danger? How much disease does it help spread by forbidding condoms? How many unwanted children does it allow to be born because it does not allow contraception? How many loving couples does it condemn because you can eat all the shellfish in the world and shave your beard, but you can't lie with another man?

    I am not trying to disrespect your religion, Eliza, but it's not all good and loving and benevolent. Its tenets do not harm you because you are privileged. I feel very lucky to have been raised in a Christian faith that teaches that nobody is condemned to hell and that consenting adults should be able to love each other and that the bible cannot be taken literally in today's world.

    You can believe what you want and I respect your beliefs, but you can be a believer and still show enough respect to leave other people their beliefs without condescending them at every turn because you think you know the truth. Having a belief is not knowing the truth. Believe what you want and find someone who shares your faith, but do not disrespect people by telling them that your religion is the only true religion. That's where all the hate and sorrow starts.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Are you guys attacking Eliza for choosing a religion that she's comfortable with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    to leave other people their beliefs without condescending them at every turn because you think you know the truth. Having a belief is not knowing the truth. Believe what you want and find someone who shares your faith, but do not disrespect people by telling them that your religion is the only true religion. That's where all the hate and sorrow starts.

    what Eliza is doing is supporting her beliefs and at the same time she's bringing her relationship, even the ones she forms here in unity to that of her own, through questions and hint dropping of her own faith; that's a typical IEE way of joining relations with spirituality. For IEE more so than an EII, people of her close relations have to be of one spiritual unity to hers; so through interaction in her Christian ways, sense, speaking, she's scouting out for those who she can bring closer to her circle. That's typical of an IEE.


    It would only sound condescending to others, or to you because you estimate things in terms of social weight or influence of what she does instead of intuitively understanding her activity. You may take what I'm explaining to you now, here and be influence to look at Eliza differently, but after the fact that I just mentioned it. Please reread your above passage, this is why I type you SEE.

    "SEEs have a high awareness of their social surroundings and of the social influence or "weight" of different people. They are naturals at concentrating social attention on themselves or on anyone else they bring into the limelight. They rarely hesitate to take action in social situations."

    You're telling Eliza, how and what she says is influencing people in what way. This is what SEE tend to go around perceiving instead of the other qualities of the person's activities, which are not aware to immediate scene.

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    I am not attacking Eliza or her personal faith. What I object to is her glorification of this religion. She minimizes the negative effect catholicism has had on many people. Anyone can believe what they want, but don't fail to acknowledge that your dogma has hurt people in the name of catholicism. That doesn't make it a bad religion, just a complex one. I am also generally suspicious of "universal truths" in the realm of beliefs and religion. I think that is perfectly in line with NeFi.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Delta NF deathmatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Delta NF deathmatch.
    I wish I was Delta NF, too...
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I wish I was Delta NF, too...
    No mud wrasslin' for me I guess D:

    Oh wait now that you are SEE I should anticipate mud wrasslin'.

    In other news bitchez got books...



    Waving them in the air makes their content more 'blessed' I guess. Myself I have never waved a single book in the air unless to swat a spider. Am I doing it wrong?

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