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Thread: Conflicting quadra relations; longterm, your feelings and their effects on you

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    Default Conflicting quadra relations; longterm, your feelings and their effects on you

    My parents are SLI and LSE, and I am an IEI. I was just thinking how big the impact of moving away from my parents has been on my life.



    Throughout my life I have always had a small sense of being worthless, and felt an inability to positively and actively influence my life. I feel as though I am no longer stuck in the quicksand; feeling more and more useless, depressed and forever f*cked. I feel like I matter. I see myself actually making a positive impact on people socially almost all the time (when before it was very limited) and actively doing things in my life that matter to me; like volunteering and helping people and working hard at college (when before I NEVER did anything; I was just so depressed and felt so useless, I rarely left my house, I could get so depressed). My mum is shocked, she says I am this completely different person. For once I feel an incredibly strong, rooted sense of self-worth and a very concrete sense of being able to make a difference to my life and to have control over what happens to me and the world around me.

    I can't believe what an impact these relationships were having on me; really limiting my sense of being able to make anything positive in my life, and thus my life was practically rotting away and my sense of self was f*cked. I really can't believe the difference that moving away has done, and all the positive experiences I have had since them; I literally feel like a completely different person with a totally different life; that's actually good and I am actually someone I feel proud of. I feel life isn't this endless darkness that I can't see the end of or a game of waiting for the ball to drop. It actually matters & I actually control it, for the most part.

    I hope my EIE sister will develop similarly when she moves out (she is currently even in a worse place than I was and finds life very difficult; she has a very submerged, glum personality, is quite depressed, has a poor job and poor relationships; it's odd to think that it's likely all caused by the incredibly negative impact our parents had). I also think my parents are quite unhealthy people as well as being our conflict relations. I'd also say putting myself out to have a lot of social interactions, with people I like and beta ST's, despite being anxious has really, really helped me to be happy and feel confident.

    Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had similar experiences and wanted to share the effect of these relationships on them and their life.

    Edit: in no way is this a post bashing LSE or SLI as parents. I'm more commenting on the damage of conflict relations AND psychologically unhealthy parents. I'm sure LSEs can be awesome parents, and that any unhealthy type would *suck*...but most of all conflict relations just seem like bad news
    Last edited by dinki; 07-26-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    My parents are SLI and LSE, and I am an IEI. I was just thinking how big the impact of moving away from my parents has been on my life.

    Throughout my life I have always had a small sense of being worthless, and felt an inability to positively and actively influence my life. I feel as though I am no longer stuck in the quicksand; feeling more and more useless, depressed and forever f*cked. I feel like I matter. I see myself actually making a positive impact on people socially almost all the time (when before it was very limited) and actively doing things in my life that matter to me; like volunteering and helping people and working hard at college (when before I NEVER did anything; I was just so depressed and felt so useless, I rarely left my house, I could get so depressed). My mum is shocked, she says I am this completely different person. For once I feel an incredibly strong, rooted sense of self-worth and a very concrete sense of being able to make a difference to my life and to have control over what happens to me and the world around me.

    I can't believe what an impact these relationships were having on me; really limiting my sense of being able to make anything positive in my life, and thus my life was practically rotting away and my sense of self was f*cked. I really can't believe the difference that moving away has done, and all the positive experiences I have had since them; I literally feel like a completely different person with a totally different life; that's actually good and I am actually someone I feel proud of. I feel life isn't this endless darkness that I can't see the end of or a game of waiting for the ball to drop. It actually matters & I actually control it, for the most part.

    I hope my EIE sister will develop similarly when she moves out (she is currently even in a worse place than I was and finds life very difficult; she has a very submerged, glum personality, is quite depressed, has a poor job and poor relationships; it's odd to think that it's likely all caused by the incredibly negative impact our parents had). I also think my parents are quite unhealthy people as well as being our conflict relations. I'd also say putting myself out to have a lot of social interactions, with people I like and beta ST's, despite being anxious has really, really helped me to be happy and feel confident.

    Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had similar experiences and wanted to share the effect of these relationships on them and their life.
    This sounds rough, but I'm glad you're now realizing your potential!

    What specifically do you think kept you so subdued? I have my own assumptions based on the typing you've referenced for your parents and your sister, but I'm interested in hearing what contributed to limited feelings of self worth and control. Criticism? Expectations?

    I do think distance from parents often boosts our sense of self, as it allows for us learn our own rhythm of processing information and making decisions without their guidance or scrutiny. I hadn't thought of this from a quadra perspective as much as I have a relations perspective, but perhaps someone else can enlighten.

    For example: My father's type compared to mine is a Benefactor. There isn't a human on the planet that I respect more than him, and while he encouraged my development and talents, he often pointed out weaknesses, and I therefore focused too much on those rather than my strengths. To my sister, he was a Supervisor, and to this day she holds great resentment towards him for trying to run her life and for decisions he made for her (even if they were in her best interest). My brother is an Identical, so he didn't have problems. But for us daughters, distance works best with him, because it allows us to run our lives as we see fit, while appreciating him and his values from afar.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Thank you all so much for your support and kindness
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    This sounds rough, but I'm glad you're now realizing your potential!

    What specifically do you think kept you so subdued? I have my own assumptions based on the typing you've referenced for your parents and your sister, but I'm interested in hearing what contributed to limited feelings of self worth and control. Criticism? Expectations?

    I do think distance from parents often boosts our sense of self, as it allows for us learn our own rhythm of processing information and making decisions without their guidance or scrutiny. I hadn't thought of this from a quadra perspective as much as I have a relations perspective, but perhaps someone else can enlighten.

    For example: My father's type compared to mine is a Benefactor. There isn't a human on the planet that I respect more than him, and while he encouraged my development and talents, he often pointed out weaknesses, and I therefore focused too much on those rather than my strengths. To my sister, he was a Supervisor, and to this day she holds great resentment towards him for trying to run her life and for decisions he made for her (even if they were in her best interest). My brother is an Identical, so he didn't have problems. But for us daughters, distance works best with him, because it allows us to run our lives as we see fit, while appreciating him and his values from afar.
    Thanks for sharing your experiences , I can imagine that must have been very hard for you; feeling you needed to work on your flaws rather than use your strengths.

    What I think kept me subdued, is my mum's intense desire for closeness and intimacy with me. Which is quite sad; it was simply a matter of clashes and feeling misunderstood on all my deep personal experiences and feelings that she wanted to know all of. She is also incredibly interfering in a sense, and very, very imposing with what she feels everyone else should do with their lives, and incredibly liberal with her opinion; I'd say she is micro managing, critical (in attempt to be constructive) and other times downright sneering, impatient and destructive in what she says - it seems to impact all of us, from my sister (who gets annoyed at her imposing; SEI, and control), to my ESE step dad who she can be quite nasty to, and seems very depressed and lathargic. My boyfriend recently told me that people can rebel from their parents in passive aggressive ways; often by resisting taking action/not doing anything at all; I think this is suggestive of a desire to release the parents contol over them and to assert some kind of independence by resisting their suggestions or orders. I also felt very unheard in my views/opinions and advice (typical ni insights or suggestions, I think, I'd fnd it annoying or powerless to state something; have it proved right time and time again but always have it ignored; I guess this reflects the sense of not being able to influence my life or have power over it). I also felt being my natural self was something which was just rejected; which I do think was down to the closeness of our interactions...

    My dad is also incredibly imposing; but more in a sense that he is demanding like he needs to be taken care of, and has a lot of anger issues and is quite scathing towards everyone he meets...he is also emotionally abusive to my sister; when she dropped out of school he told her she was the greatest mistake of his life. I feel like I was the only one in my family to get really angry at him for saying that. My mum got irritated by my anger but I couldn't believe how she couldn't confront him and protect her child. I don't think that's a quadra thing of course, I really can't image many people not rallying against someone who could cause such damage to their child by saying that. it just felt like anything of real importance, anything which was really unjust was just casually swept under the table yet we were made to feel terrible for just being ourselves or being normal kids.

    My parents often seem to want to create closeness with me, but they just feel so destructive. I can check myself, I try to avoid hurting them, but they seem to say things out of impulse and anger.

    I really agree with what you say about appreciating your dad and his values from afar, I feel similarly in regards to my parents; who I admire in some ways and do quite enjoy short amounts of time with; the conversation can be great when limited.
    Last edited by dinki; 07-25-2013 at 02:56 PM.
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    I grew up raised by an EII delta mother. Now, there are some things here i relate to. Feeling as though when you express yourself you get kinda shut-down because they don't value the same aspects that you do. I'd say i'm a bit neurotic in terms of being open with my Fe. But i also feel like a grew alot because of the same dynamic. I was always forced to look at the effect of my own actions(in an Fi-related manner), and i managed to compensate with my Ni. Personally, i think i'm much better at controlling the negative aspects of IEI than most of IEI's i'm friends with. And i would totally attribute this to having a parent that didn't accept my accepting my character flaws.

    I believe there's a saying that conflict creates growth. That without that friction you don't really feel the need to improve your situation, whatever that may be. I agree with the notion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I grew up raised by an EII delta mother. Now, there are some things here i relate to. Feeling as though when you express yourself you get kinda shut-down because they don't value the same aspects that you do. I'd say i'm a bit neurotic in terms of being open with my Fe. But i also feel like a grew alot because of the same dynamic. I was always forced to look at the effect of my own actions(in an Fi-related manner), and i managed to compensate with my Ni. Personally, i think i'm much better at controlling the negative aspects of IEI than most of IEI's i'm friends with. And i would totally attribute this to having a parent that didn't accept my accepting my character flaws.

    I believe there's a saying that conflict creates growth. That without that friction you don't really feel the need to improve your situation, whatever that may be. I agree with the notion.
    Yes, it is good if you can note the friction and refine yourself without devaluing yourself.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    Thanks for sharing your experiences , I can imagine that must have been very hard for you; feeling you needed to work on your flaws rather than use your strengths.

    What I think kept me subdued, is my mum's intense desire for closeness and intimacy with me. Which is quite sad; it was simply a matter of clashes and feeling misunderstood on all my deep personal experiences and feelings that she wanted to know all of. She is also incredibly interfering in a sense, and very, very imposing with what she feels everyone else should do with their lives, and incredibly liberal with her opinion; I'd say she is micro managing, critical (in attempt to be constructive) and other times downright sneering, impatient and destructive in what she says - it seems to impact all of us, from my sister (who gets annoyed at her imposing; SEI, and control), to my ESE step dad who she can be quite nasty to, and seems very depressed and lathargic. My boyfriend recently told me that people can rebel from their parents in passive aggressive ways; often by resisting taking action/not doing anything at all; I think this is suggestive of a desire to release the parents contol over them and to assert some kind of independence by resisting their suggestions or orders. I also felt very unheard in my views/opinions and advice (typical ni insights or suggestions, I think, I'd fnd it annoying or powerless to state something; have it proved right time and time again but always have it ignored; I guess this reflects the sense of not being able to influence my life or have power over it). I also felt being my natural self was something which was just rejected; which I do think was down to the closeness of our interactions...

    My dad is also incredibly imposing; but more in a sense that he is demanding like he needs to be taken care of, and has a lot of anger issues and is quite scathing towards everyone he meets...he is also emotionally abusive to my sister; when she dropped out of school he told her she was the greatest mistake of his life. I feel like I was the only one in my family to get really angry at him for saying that. My mum got irritated by my anger but I couldn't believe how she couldn't confront him and protect her child. I don't think that's a quadra thing of course, I really can't image many people not rallying against someone who could cause such damage to their child by saying that. it just felt like anything of real importance, anything which was really unjust was just casually swept under the table yet we were made to feel terrible for just being ourselves or being normal kids.

    My parents often seem to want to create closeness with me, but they just feel so destructive. I can check myself, I try to avoid hurting them, but they seem to say things out of impulse and anger.

    I really agree with what you say about appreciating your dad and his values from afar, I feel similarly in regards to my parents; who I admire in some ways and do quite enjoy short amounts of time with; the conversation can be great when limited.
    Words can do such damage. I have said many things that I would like to take back. One of the things I am learning from my own conflicting quadra friends is say less than you are thinking. On that subject , here is a favorite quote from my EII extinguishment: "I have never regretted the things I haven't said."
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I grew up raised by an EII delta mother. Now, there are some things here i relate to. Feeling as though when you express yourself you get kinda shut-down because they don't value the same aspects that you do. I'd say i'm a bit neurotic in terms of being open with my Fe. But i also feel like a grew alot because of the same dynamic. I was always forced to look at the effect of my own actions(in an Fi-related manner), and i managed to compensate with my Ni. Personally, i think i'm much better at controlling the negative aspects of IEI than most of IEI's i'm friends with. And i would totally attribute this to having a parent that didn't accept my accepting my character flaws.

    I believe there's a saying that conflict creates growth. That without that friction you don't really feel the need to improve your situation, whatever that may be. I agree with the notion.
    Hey Pookie, that's really interesting your different experience. What would you say your mother is like aside from socionics? In the sense that is she someone you percieve positively or as more neurotic? That's interesting about what you say about IEIs as well; what do you feel their negative traits are? I find I personally have to limit my bluntness/aggression/self expression; but often find these come out of a defensiveness; when I feel comfortable I am quite happy, warm and soft. What do you think of DHCN (or whatever it's called)? Do you relate to the harmonizing subtype? It's said they often don't exhibit the negative traits of their type...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    Thanks for sharing your experiences , I can imagine that must have been very hard for you; feeling you needed to work on your flaws rather than use your strengths.

    What I think kept me subdued, is my mum's intense desire for closeness and intimacy with me. Which is quite sad; it was simply a matter of clashes and feeling misunderstood on all my deep personal experiences and feelings that she wanted to know all of. She is also incredibly interfering in a sense, and very, very imposing with what she feels everyone else should do with their lives, and incredibly liberal with her opinion; I'd say she is micro managing, critical (in attempt to be constructive) and other times downright sneering, impatient and destructive in what she says - it seems to impact all of us, from my sister (who gets annoyed at her imposing; SEI, and control), to my ESE step dad who she can be quite nasty to, and seems very depressed and lathargic. My boyfriend recently told me that people can rebel from their parents in passive aggressive ways; often by resisting taking action/not doing anything at all; I think this is suggestive of a desire to release the parents contol over them and to assert some kind of independence by resisting their suggestions or orders. I also felt very unheard in my views/opinions and advice (typical ni insights or suggestions, I think, I'd fnd it annoying or powerless to state something; have it proved right time and time again but always have it ignored; I guess this reflects the sense of not being able to influence my life or have power over it). I also felt being my natural self was something which was just rejected; which I do think was down to the closeness of our interactions...

    My dad is also incredibly imposing; but more in a sense that he is demanding like he needs to be taken care of, and has a lot of anger issues and is quite scathing towards everyone he meets...he is also emotionally abusive to my sister; when she dropped out of school he told her she was the greatest mistake of his life. I feel like I was the only one in my family to get really angry at him for saying that. My mum got irritated by my anger but I couldn't believe how she couldn't confront him and protect her child. I don't think that's a quadra thing of course, I really can't image many people not rallying against someone who could cause such damage to their child by saying that. it just felt like anything of real importance, anything which was really unjust was just casually swept under the table yet we were made to feel terrible for just being ourselves or being normal kids.

    My parents often seem to want to create closeness with me, but they just feel so destructive. I can check myself, I try to avoid hurting them, but they seem to say things out of impulse and anger.

    I really agree with what you say about appreciating your dad and his values from afar, I feel similarly in regards to my parents; who I admire in some ways and do quite enjoy short amounts of time with; the conversation can be great when limited.
    Is your mom the LSE, dad the SLI?

    I only ask to clarify because your mom sounds similar to my LSE mother in law (whom I love dearly), in how she micro manages and seems to almost speak in a condescending manner at times, as if preaching how to solve things without truly understanding their complexity. (No offense against LSEs, I'm sure it's not always the case) Perfect example: She even tries to tell her son (my husband), that it shouldn't be hard to calm a child when holding a drill and preparing to fill a cavity, and that she could do it very easily. She even asked to be phoned to come over next time it happens. That comes across as condescending, hurtful, and controlling, as if she doesn't think he's truly tried time and time and time again.

    So I completely understand your frustrations with this. I'm really happy that you're realizing your potential, and tuning in to your internal rhythm to find what truly lights you up and engages your many strengths

    As for your dad- the quote about your sister being his biggest mistake. Was this said in the heat of the moment? Naturally, I'd be extremely upset and would quite possibly never forget this if it had been directed at me or a sibling. Has he ever apologized or owned up to it? If he's SLI, I wonder if it was said as means of venting something in which he felt guilt or regret about. Almost as if dodging pain by associating it with your sister. Either way, that's so heart breaking I hope you both are able to come to terms with whatever emotion might have influenced that, because nobody should feel like a mistake, and I'm sure your sister is incredibly talented and wonderful.

    As for SLI impulsion and anger- my husband (who is SLI) and I had a discussion the other day that led me to think he would prefer me to vent and explode in anger, and let go of what was bothering me. At the same time, he remembers very well what people say, too, and my greatest fear is saying something that I will regret, and thus I hold my tongue (and sometimes stew on things much longer than I should). At the same time, if we were ever to have an argument that was explosive and involved him saying something hurtful, it would be equally difficult for me to get over that. I linger on words more than I should, I suppose. Maybe an SLI can shed some light on this.

    It's great that at the end of the day you can appreciate family from a distance. I'm certain your sister will come around to the same conclusions. When does she move out for college?
    Last edited by applejacks; 07-25-2013 at 04:16 PM.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    She even tries to tell her son (my husband), that it shouldn't be hard to calm a child when holding a drill and preparing to fill a cavity, and that she could do it very easily. She even asked to be phoned to come over next time it happens.
    _

    Oh my gosh
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Stay far away from them, but it doesn't mean you can't observe them to learn their dirty tricks and methods... ^_^

    Also I think it's pretty good to move out of your parent's house regardless of type if you're above a certain age in the west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Is your mom the LSE, dad the SLI?

    I only ask to clarify because your mom sounds similar to my LSE mother in law (whom I love dearly), in how she micro manages and seems to almost speak in a condescending manner at times, as if preaching how to solve things without truly understanding their complexity. (No offense against LSEs, I'm sure it's not always the case) Perfect example: She even tries to tell her son (my husband), that it shouldn't be hard to calm a child when holding a drill and preparing to fill a cavity, and that she could do it very easily. She even asked to be phoned to come over next time it happens. That comes across as condescending, hurtful, and controlling, as if she doesn't think he's truly tried time and time and time again.

    So I completely understand your frustrations with this. I'm really happy that you're realizing your potential, and tuning in to your internal rhythm to find what truly lights you up and engages your many strengths

    As for your dad- the quote about your sister being his biggest mistake. Was this said in the heat of the moment? Naturally, I'd be extremely upset and would quite possibly never forget this if it had been directed at me or a sibling. Has he ever apologized or owned up to it? If he's SLI, I wonder if it was said as means of venting something in which he felt guilt or regret about. Almost as if dodging pain by associating it with your sister. Either way, that's so heart breaking I hope you both are able to come to terms with whatever emotion might have influenced that, because nobody should feel like a mistake, and I'm sure your sister is incredibly talented and wonderful.

    As for SLI impulsion and anger- my husband (who is SLI) and I had a discussion the other day that led me to think he would prefer me to vent and explode in anger, and let go of what was bothering me. But my greatest fear is saying something that I will regret, and thus I hold my tongue (and sometimes stew on things much longer than I should). At the same time, if we were ever to have an argument that was explosive and involved him saying something hurtful, it would be equally difficult for me to get over that. I linger on words more than I should, I suppose. Maybe an SLI can shed some light on this.

    It's great that at the end of the day you can appreciate family from a distance. I'm certain your sister will come around to the same conclusions. When does she move out for college?
    Wow, your post really filled me with a deep sense of empathy for my parents. Thank you for helping me to understand them <3. I think sometimes I approach things with anger because I am afraid to be hurt or feel hurt.

    That scenario sounds *just* like my mum actually. Yes, she is the LSE and my dad SLI. Yeah, preaching about how to solve things but not realizing their complexity...very true. I really wish she had a delta nf who could discuss that in such a way with her.

    May I mention, the way I have to deal with my SLE boyfriend is so directly opposed from the way that seems best to deal with delta st's, in your example; like all the understanding and kindness you seem to have. I previously tried to use that approach with my boyfriend, who could be very hurtful. He has grown so much and I am really proud of him; but my approach in dealing with him had to become a lot harder and tougher. I'm not sure if that is fi, but which ever delta st's have you in their life, they are incredibly lucky.

    Thanks for your understanding and support - it does feel really good to experience life like that now

    Thank you, I wish she had someone that could believe in her like that and understand her.

    Yeah, I think you're definitely getting it when you say he probably felt hurt or guilty. My dad often comments that he feels really bad for having an affair when we were young children and leaving my mum and us for another woman; I think he may feel guilty for being a 'bad dad' as he says and he may have felt like my sister dropping out of school demonstrated that and maybe that was very painful for him and so he said what he did. I think my parents are good people with social consiences, but that these get twisted because they are quite neurotic.

    It makes me feel really sad for my parents, . It makes me feel as though there is not anyone who can truly understand them. I do see they feel often unvalued, unsupported; nobody to truly appreciate them in the way that people of their quadra would. I do wish I could help them and have before, but being a beta nf I don't see how I can or feel I truly can.

    If people can be willing to fix the damage of their words...I do think sometimes it is oddly write to be expressive, especially if something can build up in the way you describe.

    I hope so too! Not currently sure when my sister will move out , I have been trying to encourage her, but could be a good couple of years. Thanks again so much for your insight and support applejacks
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    Wow, your post really filled me with a deep sense of empathy for my parents. Thank you for helping me to understand them <3. I think sometimes I approach things with anger because I am afraid to be hurt or feel hurt.

    That scenario sounds *just* like my mum actually. Yes, she is the LSE and my dad SLI. Yeah, preaching about how to solve things but not realizing their complexity...very true. I really wish she had a delta nf who could discuss that in such a way with her.

    May I mention, the way I have to deal with my SLE boyfriend is so directly opposed from the way that seems best to deal with delta st's, in your example; like all the understanding and kindness you seem to have. I previously tried to use that approach with my boyfriend, who could be very hurtful. He has grown so much and I am really proud of him; but my approach in dealing with him had to become a lot harder and tougher. I'm not sure if that is fi, but which ever delta st's have you in their life, they are incredibly lucky.

    Thanks for your understanding and support - it does feel really good to experience life like that now

    Thank you, I wish she had someone that could believe in her like that and understand her.

    Yeah, I think you're definitely getting it when you say he probably felt hurt or guilty. My dad often comments that he feels really bad for having an affair when we were young children and leaving my mum and us for another woman; I think he may feel guilty for being a 'bad dad' as he says and he may have felt like my sister dropping out of school demonstrated that and maybe that was very painful for him and so he said what he did. I think my parents are good people with social consiences, but that these get twisted because they are quite neurotic.

    It makes me feel really sad for my parents, . It makes me feel as though there is not anyone who can truly understand them. I do see they feel often unvalued, unsupported; nobody to truly appreciate them in the way that people of their quadra would. I do wish I could help them and have before, but being a beta nf I don't see how I can or feel I truly can.

    If people can be willing to fix the damage of their words...I do think sometimes it is oddly write to be expressive, especially if something can build up in the way you describe.

    I hope so too! Not currently sure when my sister will move out , I have been trying to encourage her, but could be a good couple of years. Thanks again so much for your insight and support applejacks
    I'm so happy that I could help, although I think you're giving me more credit than I deserve. Something tells me there is a very, very good reason that you are who you are, and that you have the parents that you have. If nothing else, you might find you play an important role in understanding them and bridging any future misunderstandings between them and your sister. Maybe all this time you just needed some independence and some distance. Also, the older we get, the more insight our parents seem to shed on their story of life. It's a funny thing that happens, and although beautiful, it makes us relate to and understand why they did the things they did.

    Best news of all is, once you move out and you're on your own, it only gets easier

    I do find your parents' types intriguing though. Did they work together? How did they meet? That's a mirror relation, and it's interesting that I almost see similar patterns between them and my LSE mother in law and my SLI husband. They work well together when they talk about work, but there's tension and misunderstanding during all other times.

    The more I learn about socionics, the more I understand people's behavior and any source intertype heartache/frustration. It doesn't make it easier by any means. Everyone just wants to be understood and loved. It's unfortunate when we're not hardwired to do so.

    So in the case of your SLE boyfriend- what was it you did differently? You allowed yourself to react in the moment with less hesitation? I've started to try this by telling him when something is irritating, and I have noticed some positive changes in both of us. I don't linger on it, and he gradually stops doing it, so that's been great to see

    I'm always happy to listen or discuss these types of things! I'm so glad you're feeling better about everything!

    Go out in the world, do great things!
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    Mm. I have an LSE dad. (E3 sp/so) I can emphasize with what you describe about trying to tell people how to do things "right" without understanding their complexity or underlying reasons for being a certain way.

    My dad sees my Te-PoLR as a willful unwillingness to "grow up" and would lose his temper when I made Te-mistakes. He's also shouted to my face that I've failed his expectations in every way, that I'm the major source of suffering and emotional pain in his (and my mother's) life, that he lowered every expectation he had for me but that I can't even meet the lowered expectations because I'm "not normal." I used to have panic attacks in the days after interacting with him, and as a result, strove to avoid him, but he didn't understand why I was so "not caring of family."

    However, things seem weirdly to have gotten better with time. My mom said recently that he's scared I hate him, which must mean he's come to some sort of weak understanding (??) Maybe LSE's aren't bricks. Others I've known have been far more nuanced in their understandings of other people, so there's a range.

    Anyway, that sucks, it's good to get out.

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    LSE E3 variety can be a lot lul though, lemon. ILE and SLE E3 are even better...
    Last edited by Absurd; 07-25-2013 at 06:16 PM.

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    I was getting drinks with a bunch of people lately; in that group was an ILE E3... In a matter of minutes, he'd spun out this extremely elaborate and unlikely business plan involving (as one step) the sale of other people's babies... (TR or NTR?)

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    Sure, I would make a baby out of him (how silly it may sound) and sell him to a circus. Instant profit. I wonder how much hkkmr is worth.

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    Oh my...

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    Should LSEs just never be parents, or what? I had a tough time with all the issues mentioned by dinki and lemontrees. When I'm away from my parents though, I really do appreciate everything they've done, but it never reaches a point where I can just forgive all the insensitivity, the lack of attention given to me developing my own identity.

    It seems like it should be obvious that LSE is making terrible mistakes that their children will not be able to forgive when they behave like that, and I like to think that I'd make a much better parent.

    But what if my child is LSE? What if I'm not wealthy enough to afford that type of separation with your kids that is healthy, but expensive (daycare, summer camps, a lot of extra space in the house, etc..) and I have to raise that conflicting quadra kid for like 16 -17 years? Would that just be another disaster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I was getting drinks with a bunch of people lately; in that group was an ILE E3... In a matter of minutes, he'd spun out this extremely elaborate and unlikely business plan involving (as one step) the sale of other people's babies... (TR or NTR?)
    fo sho

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Should LSEs just never be parents, or what? I had a tough time with all the issues mentioned by dinki and lemontrees. When I'm away from my parents though, I really do appreciate everything they've done, but it never reaches a point where I can just forgive all the insensitivity, the lack of attention given to me developing my own identity.

    It seems like it should be obvious that LSE is making terrible mistakes that their children will not be able to forgive when they behave like that, and I like to think that I'd make a much better parent.

    But what if my child is LSE? What if I'm not wealthy enough to afford that type of separation with your kids that is healthy, but expensive (daycare, summer camps, a lot of extra space in the house, etc..) and I have to raise that conflicting quadra kid for like 16 -17 years? Would that just be another disaster?
    I understand what you mean. I've struggled with that too, and it's only now getting better (and, being me, they had to acquiesce a lot before I started forgiving, despite the fact that they've been reasonably healthy this past year and I've been fairly unhealthy, so the dynamic should be in the other direction.) But I'm grateful for the positive change. Also, I too really fear having an LIE kid; it would be terrible for both of us.

    I don't think all LSE's are "bad parents." I think my LSE aunt (E3 sp/sx) has done a really admirable job for both her kids, trying to take care of everything in the family at once, pushing her children to "work hard" but also "discover their direction." She's like the best version you can have of the quintessential soccer mom lol. But her children are SLI and LSE, and that helps a lot. My SLI cousin (the older kid) is doing really well these days--he's really balanced, personable, hard-working, well-liked, and creatively productive. The dad is an (often inadvertently abrasive) ILE research scientist who basically just does his own thing or sometimes orders his wife around...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Should LSEs just never be parents, or what?
    Never to IEI. EII kids are better and smarter...

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    My mom is EIE. I must admit, I have almost nothing in common with her. My parents are divorced now and she's living with another man. She calls home frequently to talk to my siblings (ILE and ESE) but pretty much avoids talking to me.

    I have a pretty hot temper and when I'm angry I can say pretty hurtful stuff. The kind of stuff that gets under your skin because I'm unfortunately pretty good at spotting people's deficiencies. I've criticized my mom harshly most of my adult life about her disregard for Si that affected us all but my disabled brother the most. Even today, she avoid her obligations as a mother and pretty much left all the work to my dad.

    Discussions are about serious stuff I think. Like the other day my brother had the brilliant idea to bite a steel needle and chipping one of his teeth. I urged both my parents to take him to the dentist. My dad (LII) is also very weak on Si so he pretty much avoids the issue but when talked gently to, he always makes sense. My brother asked my mom for money for the dentist but she simply said that she "had no money" (and she DOES have, by the way, it's just that she spends it on her stuff). That infuriated me and picked up the phone to say her straight that we don't need her and that we can solve the issue by ourselves. My sister and I ended up paying for the visit to the dentist...

    You can imagine the kind of childhood I had. I was a well behaved child and when I had issues at the school, it was almost always out of external factors. My mom, however, never defended me. All that she was concerned about was her public image. All she wanted was that we "didn't cause trouble to her".

    Permanent mental scars from this? That I always feel like I'm going to die from cold in an alley without anyone caring, even when I give pretty much everything myself.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    With some people, it doesn't matter what you do - they will dislike you for their own reasons. You can't let it get you down. You could save 10,000 innocent puppies, and they'd still see malignant intent behind it. You could do nothing and try to ignore them, and they will still dislike you. You could try to apologize, you could save the world 10,000 times and find the cure for cancer- in their heart, you will always be ROTTEN. So I'm sorry but loving yourself = always way better then asking others to love you. But for your own sanity, we need to find love and belonging somewhere. If not at your own house, then an internet family, if not that- then friends at school. But we all need love.

    When shitty things happen to us by other people, I think we have a choice. "Do I let this victimize me?" or "Do I let this become yet another reason to raise my selfconfidence even more?" Although sometimes it's natural to feel the burn when insulted, I think the key is letting it go , feeling the pain and moving the fuck on. Other people's dirt isn't so hard to take, dear. Even if it's our own family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Never to IEI. EII kids are better and smarter...
    Her proposition is wrong, but you sure have supported it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    that it's ok for you to make mistakes as parents, too.
    That is not the moral you get out of having bad parenting done to you. Apparently you are talking about things out o scope of your experience and understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    You should not count on your kids to be the focus point of your life. Just as you need an identity outside of love relationship, you need an identity outside of your kids.
    YES. Love this.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Her proposition is wrong, but you sure have supported it.
    A closed mouth gathers no foot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    I got the impression Absurd was joking...
    No wonder your duals liek you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    I got the impression Absurd was joking...
    I find it more likely that sssonyyy's comment did get him.
    Even if he was joking, taking context in to account it doesn't change a thing in validity of my response.

    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    Well it's certainly not *the* moral but it's *a* moral you *could* get from bad parenting, if you're looking for the positive.
    No, it is not "a" moral you could get out of bad parenting, when "bad" carries any significant weight.
    One does not come to think that it is ok to make mistakes when mistakes made by parents made you not "ok" for years (and that is still a mild variant).

    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post
    I was simply sharing my experience and perspective.
    And I told you that they are insufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    Hey Pookie, that's really interesting your different experience. What would you say your mother is like aside from socionics? In the sense that is she someone you percieve positively or as more neurotic? That's interesting about what you say about IEIs as well; what do you feel their negative traits are? I find I personally have to limit my bluntness/aggression/self expression; but often find these come out of a defensiveness; when I feel comfortable I am quite happy, warm and soft. What do you think of DHCN (or whatever it's called)? Do you relate to the harmonizing subtype? It's said they often don't exhibit the negative traits of their type...
    Hmmm, my mother is rather self-sacrificial. Loving. And probably a genius by IQ standards. But definitely neurotic. She doesn't deal with stress well. And there's alot of people(daughters, niece, nephew) who rely on her more than anyone but me and her really realize. So that kinda compounds stress in of itself. So she can be volatile at times. She's even self-aware of this. There's just no way for that to change at this point short of absolute freedom from obligation, which she'd reject anyway.
    Negative traits of the IEI type: It can vary. I think we freeze up at times of danger/action(Se), especially if we havent been in that situation or thought deeply about ourselves in those situations(Ni to cancel). I think we can project our faults onto others as a way of venting our emotions(Fe). I've seen mini-betrayals of high priority people(family, close friends) in order to appease someone they're directly dealing with(Fe>Fi). We can be manipulative in very subtle ways, though usually anxiety over consequences quells this urge. And we Don't take out the trash. Or make our beds. That's probably our greatest weakness.
    I don't find Bluntness/aggression/self-expression as a negative trait really, unless it's at the expense of well, Fi related issues. Blunt is better than pussyfooting. Say what you mean, mean what you say; if they can't take it then it's only going to be towards their detriment when they can't figure out why people with shady character decieve them so often. Honestly those three traits were traits i wish my mom had more of. It would tremendously diminish her stress and make it easier for us to predict what she wants of us.
    I think DCNH is a strong logical structure for further dilineation of differences in the spectrum of personality. I relate to Harmonizing, than to Normalizing, than to Creative, than to Dominant in that order. I can see how Harmonizing doesn't exhibit some of the more obvious negative traits, but we're also probably the weirdest people in the eyes of the average person. I can see how both have ups and downs.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    I find it more likely that sssonyyy's comment did get him. Even if he was joking, taking context in to account it doesn't change a thing in validity of my response.
    How did it get me and what doesn't change? Alpha NTs, heh.

    Your "response" was idiotic to say the least, so I gather what I wrote got you and not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    How did it get me and what doesn't change? Alpha NTs, heh.

    Your "response" was idiotic to say the least, so I gather what I wrote got you and not the other way around.
    Yea I wasn't trying to get anyone.. and after wondering if LSEs are bad parents I also wondered if IEI would be a bad parent to an LSE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Should LSEs just never be parents, or what? I had a tough time with all the issues mentioned by dinki and lemontrees. When I'm away from my parents though, I really do appreciate everything they've done, but it never reaches a point where I can just forgive all the insensitivity, the lack of attention given to me developing my own identity.

    It seems like it should be obvious that LSE is making terrible mistakes that their children will not be able to forgive when they behave like that, and I like to think that I'd make a much better parent.
    *shrugs* My father seems to be LSE. He's also ESTJ and possibly E1. Allowing other people to have their opinions is something he has to work on (that and being less religious, as he takes it to an unnecessary extreme). He's the sort who will push and push because he just knows he's right and that you'll be better off if you realize what he's trying to tell you, regardless of whether it's exasperating you or not. Then he wonders why people can't stand him. He has his good points, to be sure. He works his ass off to make sure we have the things we need, both at work and around the house. And he does mean well. I've said it before, but I really think his overcompensation could be related to his own shitty childhood, like he's so determined not to screw us up that he goes overboard. I think I dislike him less than I used to, but I still prefer him in small doses and at a distance; otherwise, it gets explosive. He's definitely left me with a complex or two. >_> My mother's an Alpha. I'll write about that later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleFool View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    I'm so happy that I could help, although I think you're giving me more credit than I deserve. Something tells me there is a very, very good reason that you are who you are, and that you have the parents that you have. If nothing else, you might find you play an important role in understanding them and bridging any future misunderstandings between them and your sister. Maybe all this time you just needed some independence and some distance. Also, the older we get, the more insight our parents seem to shed on their story of life. It's a funny thing that happens, and although beautiful, it makes us relate to and understand why they did the things they did.

    Best news of all is, once you move out and you're on your own, it only gets easier

    I do find your parents' types intriguing though. Did they work together? How did they meet? That's a mirror relation, and it's interesting that I almost see similar patterns between them and my LSE mother in law and my SLI husband. They work well together when they talk about work, but there's tension and misunderstanding during all other times.

    The more I learn about socionics, the more I understand people's behavior and any source intertype heartache/frustration. It doesn't make it easier by any means. Everyone just wants to be understood and loved. It's unfortunate when we're not hardwired to do so.

    So in the case of your SLE boyfriend- what was it you did differently? You allowed yourself to react in the moment with less hesitation? I've started to try this by telling him when something is irritating, and I have noticed some positive changes in both of us. I don't linger on it, and he gradually stops doing it, so that's been great to see

    I'm always happy to listen or discuss these types of things! I'm so glad you're feeling better about everything!

    Go out in the world, do great things!
    That's a great point . I agree with you that socionics helps us to better understand and empahize with other types and navigate relationships better .

    My parents met at a drama group...I don't know much about their relationship. My mum seems to talk about my dad in a joking, sarcastic way. My dad just has the same witty scathing response to anyone, including my mum. He can tend to blow up at her, but I think that is when he feels like she is keeping us away from him; and she isn't, he is just edgy about that. She said they were really happy for ten years and that if he had apologized to her and asked for forgiveness she would have taken him back, after he had the affair. So to me it seems like she really loved him, though he isn't the love of her life; I suspect that man is an EII but I am not sure. They have both crossed paths and fallen in love with their duals; and both situations have failed. My mum had her heartbroken by the EII, but that was because she was afraid and withdrew...and did so again when she had the chance to get him back. My dad had an affair with an IEE and that was who he left us and our mum for. I don't ever fully forgive him for that; I know I should but I can't. I think he feels like he lives in the shadow of that. Their relationship actually broke down when he admitted to her that he and another woman had feelings for one another but were not going to act on it; she walked out of the restaurant on their anniversary and didn't come back. It just makes me disappointed in him but I respect my parents for their honesty, he could of lied to us. The odd things is they are now both with an ESE, feeling melancholic about lost loves. People think they have time and they don't.

    That is great . That's interesting, you have been together quite a while now haven't you? It's interesting the duals seem to work together over time to become better and better for one another. I feel that's the case with my SLE too . We have been together almost four years now and new, better ways or working together and positive changes happen everyday . Yes, that's it; I stopped focusing on his feelings and focused on mine instead and how I really felt about his behaviour; I think it has helped him to empahize, as being Fi polr I think it meant unless I fully expressed myself, he couldn't see what I felt and also couldn't understand why or how his behaviour was wrong. Now he understands he fully takes ownership and says he is shocked by the person he used to be.

    <3
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Yea I wasn't trying to get anyone.. and after wondering if LSEs are bad parents I also wondered if IEI would be a bad parent to an LSE.
    This is why I DON'T want to have kids! And will adopt. I really don't want an LSE or EII kid (boyfriend or future husband if not my bf being an SLE presumably). I just think 100% conflict relations with a parent fuck you up, no matter which type is which.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Mm. I have an LSE dad. (E3 sp/so) I can emphasize with what you describe about trying to tell people how to do things "right" without understanding their complexity or underlying reasons for being a certain way.

    My dad sees my Te-PoLR as a willful unwillingness to "grow up" and would lose his temper when I made Te-mistakes. He's also shouted to my face that I've failed his expectations in every way, that I'm the major source of suffering and emotional pain in his (and my mother's) life, that he lowered every expectation he had for me but that I can't even meet the lowered expectations because I'm "not normal." I used to have panic attacks in the days after interacting with him, and as a result, strove to avoid him, but he didn't understand why I was so "not caring of family."

    However, things seem weirdly to have gotten better with time. My mom said recently that he's scared I hate him, which must mean he's come to some sort of weak understanding (??) Maybe LSE's aren't bricks. Others I've known have been far more nuanced in their understandings of other people, so there's a range.

    Anyway, that sucks, it's good to get out.
    Wow Lemontrees, that sounds so shitty . Yeah I get that, my mum also branded me selfish for avoiding her after her blow outs - it's never them that can be wrong or the cause for any issue. Can't believe he could say things so bad it would cause panic attacks that's really horrible.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Hmmm, my mother is rather self-sacrificial. Loving. And probably a genius by IQ standards. But definitely neurotic. She doesn't deal with stress well. And there's alot of people(daughters, niece, nephew) who rely on her more than anyone but me and her really realize. So that kinda compounds stress in of itself. So she can be volatile at times. She's even self-aware of this. There's just no way for that to change at this point short of absolute freedom from obligation, which she'd reject anyway.
    Negative traits of the IEI type: It can vary. I think we freeze up at times of danger/action(Se), especially if we havent been in that situation or thought deeply about ourselves in those situations(Ni to cancel). I think we can project our faults onto others as a way of venting our emotions(Fe). I've seen mini-betrayals of high priority people(family, close friends) in order to appease someone they're directly dealing with(Fe>Fi). We can be manipulative in very subtle ways, though usually anxiety over consequences quells this urge. And we Don't take out the trash. Or make our beds. That's probably our greatest weakness.
    I don't find Bluntness/aggression/self-expression as a negative trait really, unless it's at the expense of well, Fi related issues. Blunt is better than pussyfooting. Say what you mean, mean what you say; if they can't take it then it's only going to be towards their detriment when they can't figure out why people with shady character decieve them so often. Honestly those three traits were traits i wish my mom had more of. It would tremendously diminish her stress and make it easier for us to predict what she wants of us.
    I think DCNH is a strong logical structure for further dilineation of differences in the spectrum of personality. I relate to Harmonizing, than to Normalizing, than to Creative, than to Dominant in that order. I can see how Harmonizing doesn't exhibit some of the more obvious negative traits, but we're also probably the weirdest people in the eyes of the average person. I can see how both have ups and downs.
    Yeah, I can kind of see how that would help you develop in certain ways. That's really interesting what you say about our flaws. I 100% agree with the mini betrayals for appeasing the person in front of them; I have definitely seen that too; it's a backwards way to build connections. I'd also relate that to insecurity too; I have seen often that people seem to connect through bitching because they don't feel confident to connect in other ways; I think my SLE friend does that and I've watched the EIE appease her by bitching with her about her best friend, an lsi. Thanks for putting it into socionics terms - I never thought about it as fe>fi . Haha . Yeah, being shitty with chores lol totally our biggest flaws. I'd say in my experience IEI's also have an issue with very emotive offloading onto people; getting very emotional and then pouring it out; self-pity, self involvement, no care for others; only personal self expression; I find that the most offputting trait - which again is, in your framework fe>fi. Also downside of e4.

    Yeah, thanks . I feel people say that in theory...in life, I think people find it funny - it is energizing as the dominant description suggestions, but people seem to find it kind of shocking in a negative sense or take a step back from it. But I always valued that about my self; you have to be bold and get things done, especially in conflict situations. It's interesting and makes sense that you wish your mum had those traits. That's interesting...I love the normalizing though the one thing I'd say I find offputting in some I have met is that they are TOO NICE, I consider too much niceness a weakness/negative trait for some reason...and don't like it when it's too present in myself...I think that's related to being dominant though; it's feeling like I can't get enough done like that but it totally makes sense how it works and is needed for the social world at large . Sometimes wish I were that! You guys seem to just easily breeze through it all
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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