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Thread: Rant against EXTp - hopefully it pisses you off

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    bolong's Avatar
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    Default Rant against EXTp - hopefully it pisses you off.

    Yesterday I was supposed to meet up with an old SLE college friend that I have a pretty heavy history with. Romantic too, at a certain point, and otherwise just vitriolic. He's one of those really fucked up SLEs too, or so I thought though now I think there is just something wrong with all EP temperaments (except female IEE and SEE).

    Anyway when I do talk to him he's very apologetic about our past and tries to show that he really wants to make amends and that he values my friendship. So finally I decide to take the initiative in meeting up in person, and tell him to meet me at a pub where I was meeting a high school friend, so that it's not awkward.. and also kind of so I'm in a decent position. He usually angles for situations where the other person is forced to feel more awkward, to cover up his own goddamn awkwardness.. you know how that goes with SLE. He didn't turn up, and I had a pretty fun time drinking with my girl friend, though I had made up my mind that I would go on a drunken rage at him the minute I got home.

    I did do this, and he gave an excuse that he had a lot of work, though he could have just said that earlier instead of being an asshole. He tried to act like this was super low priority, he didn't even think about it, but I mean who does that? Why go through so much of a charade?

    Then I remembered an ILE ex of mine who did similar things.. getting caught up in work and totally blowing off commitments related to hanging out with people they are very comfortable with (aka take for granted).

    First of all, they are not the fucking CEO, they are probably pretty replaceable according to everyone but themselves. Second, it's a Fi-POLR thing, but it's shocking how unaware they are of it. Like, it's not even a thing for them. Why do they think this? I mean my Te-POLR hits me in the face in very tangible ways, and I have to say that it gives me humility, which is a valuable thing. Humility gives you substance below the smoke-and-mirror show which is the only thing that EXTp is capable of.

    Another thing is how much of what comes out of their mouths is on-the-spot bullshit with the intent of improving their own position at the cost of someone else. This is what makes (some?) of them outright despicable, because it's not fun bullshit, it's not imaginative bullshit, it's straight up gaslighting. Except when the other person actually knows more, then its just them making a fool of themselves and not realizing it, because (aha!) Fi-POLR.

    For example, while I was drunkenly raging, I mentioned that he's sent me some pretty compromising emails (girls are like apples poem, when he has a longtime steady. I mean we can blame Fi-POLR again here, but that is just plain disrespectful to his gf). Idk what my point was, exactly, other than the fact that I don't call him out or make things difficult for him even when he makes it easy, not because I'm stupid, but because I care and that is at least worth telling someone you can't make it instead standing them up and acting like they have so many other important things to do. His response is to tell me his company uses an email-tracking whatever which allows him to see how many times I open his emails, and that was why he agreed to try and meet me in the first place.

    Now, everyone listen carefully. Before, this manouvre would have totally blindsided me and the rest would have been a victory march for him. I used to be mortified whenever he made me feel like I was still hung up over him while he never gave a fuck. But, this is only what he wants me to think (see above: gaslighting). It's clever, actually, making use of all the information he already has: I'm too un-tech-savvy to know whether the email tracking thing is true or not; I'm drunk; I'm upset by his actions. How to consolidate this into real power over me? BAM you want me more than I want you!

    I will give him credit though, for hiding the brush strokes really fucking well. I will also give credit to ILE ex for being much less smooth but pulling all the same shit, effectively rendering himself into the perfect training manual on How To Read EXTp Dummies. (lol)

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    FoxOnStilts's Avatar
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    There are people who are aware or their faults and what they're not very good at, and actively make an effort to improve themselves.

    Those you described are not those people. Maybe they aren't aware of these faults, maybe they are and don't care. Either way, it isn't strictly Fi-polr that makes them shitty people. Sure, it may make them more likely to do things that you don't like (though being IEI it should be stuff you don't really care about, if you're looking for a specifically socionics answer), but it sounds more like they are immature assholes, which is very not type related.

    Have you tried confronting them about it at all? Or just telling them off? Fi-polr isn't just saying things that are inappropriate; it's not knowing how to manage individual relationships and not being able to understand how close you are to someone, and, in the end, devolves into either an XLE freaking out at every possible moment of anxiety because they can't interpret the inter-relational distance ("Do they want to be friends? Should I ask them to coffee? Is that not weird? We've only hung out once. And that was in class. Why would they hang out with me outside of class? I'd like to have a friend. I don't know. What do friends do?") or it turns into a super immature person who just doesn't care and overcompensates for his insecutiries ("WHATEVER I'M GOING TO DO AND SAY WHATEVER I WANT BECAUSE I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CENSOR MYSELF LOLOLOL STEPHEN FRY LOL").

    But you can't change someone who doesn't want to change themselves, and they don't seem to see whats wrong with themselves nor have any desire to change. Which is way, way more than Fi polr. I can think of almost every type that does something to annoy me and do stupid shit without thinking or caring.

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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    ExTps like to get caught being naughty and cheating. That's why Hkkmr loves me. Less than 3. But they hate admitting it because they like to have face and look like the paragons of humanity. That's why hkkmr hates me. Less than 2.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Why do you even want to hang with this guy if he's got a long term girlfriend?

    Some SLE's and ILE's aren't going to do social stuff just because it's social, they don't particularly need it or like it like a lot of other extroverts. They do it for a reason, sex, money, fun, keep up social status. Your high school girlfriend's there, therefore no sex, him not showing is pretty telling.

    Some polr's don't really like hanging out with people, most people are a hassle to polrs. They might be friends/family, but eventually they all become a hassle for them to deal with. You might have some bad experiences with your ex and this guy but I see this as something normal. My SLE friend is far more likely to show up for social(event like a party/record release) situation than a personal situation. If it's personal, it's dangerous, vulnerable and awkward, so there better be a payoff.

    The thing is, each time here you are talking about them blowing you off in hanging out with other people, maybe it's exactly what they don't want to do. Hang out with anyone but you. I try not to hang out with people I don't like, if they're there, I won't be there or I try not to be there.

    The question is, is your ILE ex still friends with those people you think he's comfortable with, does this SLE want anything more than sex. What do you really want from this guy and your boyfriends? Your ILE ex might say he's fine with your friends, and he may very well be ok with them, but that doesn't me he wants anything to do with them or to see them ever around you.

    Anyways polr don't trust easily, I'm not sure if your ex trusted you enough to tell you what he really thought about whoever you were around or whether or not you care about them more than him.

    Also most SLE's/ILE's can develop a routine of sort for a place they go to alot, if you want to catch them there, it's pretty good way to get time with them. I think you will find that there will be good and bad SLE's and ILE's but they often have similar traits which you might hate but need to learn how to deal with. Unfortunately SLE's and ILE's do not cater to other people for no reason, these are not people accommodating types no matter how friendly they might seem in some situations.

    You should read the http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...Socioscope_SLE description.

    It basically describes everything you complain about, this is quite common.

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    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Some SLE's and ILE's aren't going to do social stuff just because it's social, they don't particularly need it or like it like a lot of other extroverts. They do it for a reason, sex, money, fun, keep up social status. Your high school girlfriend's there, therefore no sex, him not showing is pretty telling.

    Some polr's don't really like hanging out with people, most people are a hassle to polrs. They might be friends/family, but eventually they all become a hassle for them to deal with. You might have some bad experiences with your ex and this guy but I see this as something normal. My SLE friend is far more likely to show up for social situation than a personal situation. If it's personal, it's dangerous, vulnerable and awkward, so there better be a payoff.
    This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read your post sorry. I don't really think that XLEs think of themselves as manipulative, rather they recognize their own difficulties in personal relationships and use the tools available to them to try and make it better. It can come across as manipulative, but to an XLE it's just relationship management.

    Regarding him not showing up, I think Hkkmr really hit the nail on the head. If he doesn't see the return on spending that time with you, he's not going to do it and it's easier to just let that instance go. And really, if he's wanting to spend time with you, and is then having to spend time with people who are not really his friends, but your friends, it's just more social management he has to deal with.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    There are people who are aware or their faults and what they're not very good at, and actively make an effort to improve themselves.

    Those you described are not those people. Maybe they aren't aware of these faults, maybe they are and don't care. Either way, it isn't strictly Fi-polr that makes them shitty people. Sure, it may make them more likely to do things that you don't like (though being IEI it should be stuff you don't really care about, if you're looking for a specifically socionics answer), but it sounds more like they are immature assholes, which is very not type related.

    Have you tried confronting them about it at all? Or just telling them off? Fi-polr isn't just saying things that are inappropriate; it's not knowing how to manage individual relationships and not being able to understand how close you are to someone, and, in the end, devolves into either an XLE freaking out at every possible moment of anxiety because they can't interpret the inter-relational distance ("Do they want to be friends? Should I ask them to coffee? Is that not weird? We've only hung out once. And that was in class. Why would they hang out with me outside of class? I'd like to have a friend. I don't know. What do friends do?") or it turns into a super immature person who just doesn't care and overcompensates for his insecutiries ("WHATEVER I'M GOING TO DO AND SAY WHATEVER I WANT BECAUSE I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CENSOR MYSELF LOLOLOL STEPHEN FRY LOL").

    But you can't change someone who doesn't want to change themselves, and they don't seem to see whats wrong with themselves nor have any desire to change. Which is way, way more than Fi polr. I can think of almost every type that does something to annoy me and do stupid shit without thinking or caring.
    People that want to change fail to change all the time. Somethings aren't that changeable.

    The people she's talking about might be immature or want very selfish things from her, but I saw a lot of red flags that would have turned me away in her post. A lot of things which would have made it a very lukewarm experience to go meet up with her and her friends.

    They might feel bad about ditching her or not showing up but PolR expression is often phobic and pretty hard to overcome, and if overcome never consistently. Regardless, it's painful to deal with it, this has likely very little to do with her but her choice of friends and the existence of someone else in the situation. When she prioritizes her friends over her ILE boyfriend or this SLE guy, it tells them that they're not #1 for her, and this is a problem for ILE/SLE's especially when romantic feelings are there. These individuals may not be able to verbalize this to her, but that lack of trust is very painful for polr's. So they will lie, avoid, try to get away with avoiding these individuals who he sees at taking away attention from him.

    This is a maturity problem, it's a problem of trust between her and her partners and the inability to communicate what they really want from each other. Something that comes from experience, failure and learning about yourself, but you don't change that much, you might get better at expressing expectations and telling the truth about why you didn't show up.

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    bolong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    There are people who are aware or their faults and what they're not very good at, and actively make an effort to improve themselves.

    Those you described are not those people. Maybe they aren't aware of these faults, maybe they are and don't care. Either way, it isn't strictly Fi-polr that makes them shitty people. Sure, it may make them more likely to do things that you don't like (though being IEI it should be stuff you don't really care about, if you're looking for a specifically socionics answer), but it sounds more like they are immature assholes, which is very not type related.

    Have you tried confronting them about it at all? Or just telling them off? Fi-polr isn't just saying things that are inappropriate; it's not knowing how to manage individual relationships and not being able to understand how close you are to someone, and, in the end, devolves into either an XLE freaking out at every possible moment of anxiety because they can't interpret the inter-relational distance ("Do they want to be friends? Should I ask them to coffee? Is that not weird? We've only hung out once. And that was in class. Why would they hang out with me outside of class? I'd like to have a friend. I don't know. What do friends do?") or it turns into a super immature person who just doesn't care and overcompensates for his insecutiries ("WHATEVER I'M GOING TO DO AND SAY WHATEVER I WANT BECAUSE I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CENSOR MYSELF LOLOLOL STEPHEN FRY LOL").

    But you can't change someone who doesn't want to change themselves, and they don't seem to see whats wrong with themselves nor have any desire to change. Which is way, way more than Fi polr. I can think of almost every type that does something to annoy me and do stupid shit without thinking or caring.
    (bold part) is basically his main issue, which I guess is innocent enough, and I forgive it much more often than not. Except, WE ARE OLD COLLEGE FRIENDS. We've basically done everything you can do with each other. We think we're chill enough to handle being friends. We had hallucinogenic experiences together. We both (especially him, even when I wanted block him off forever) think all this means something. How does XLE anxiety matter at this point? I was putting myself out there too by initiating. Asshole.

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    bolong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    People that want to change fail to change all the time. Somethings aren't that changeable.

    The people she's talking about might be immature or want very selfish things from her, but I saw a lot of red flags that would have turned me away in her post. A lot of things which would have made it a very lukewarm experience to go meet up with her and her friends.

    They might feel bad about ditching her or not showing up but PolR expression is often phobic and pretty hard to overcome, and if overcome never consistently. Regardless, it's painful to deal with it, this has likely very little to do with her but her choice of friends and the existence of someone else in the situation. When she prioritizes her friends over her ILE boyfriend or this SLE guy, it tells them that they're not #1 for her, and this is a problem for ILE/SLE's especially when romantic feelings are there. These individuals may not be able to verbalize this to her, but that lack of trust is very painful for polr's. So they will lie, avoid, try to get away with avoiding these individuals who he sees at taking away attention from him.

    This is a maturity problem, it's a problem of trust between her and her partners and the inability to communicate what they really want from each other. Something that comes from experience, failure and learning about yourself, but you don't change that much, you might get better at expressing expectations and telling the truth about why you didn't show up.
    Lol, you're making it seem like I have multiple boyfriends simultaneously. ILE ex is totally out of the picture, it ended badly with him.

    But this was helpful. And I also like to make things difficult for them, in a way, to also test if they care or not. I guess I'm mostly talking about the SLE now, bc like I said before OLD COLLEGE FRIENDS. Can't we just leave the sex out?

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    bolong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    People that want to change fail to change all the time. Somethings aren't that changeable.

    The people she's talking about might be immature or want very selfish things from her, but I saw a lot of red flags that would have turned me away in her post. A lot of things which would have made it a very lukewarm experience to go meet up with her and her friends.

    They might feel bad about ditching her or not showing up but PolR expression is often phobic and pretty hard to overcome, and if overcome never consistently. Regardless, it's painful to deal with it, this has likely very little to do with her but her choice of friends and the existence of someone else in the situation. When she prioritizes her friends over her ILE boyfriend or this SLE guy, it tells them that they're not #1 for her, and this is a problem for ILE/SLE's especially when romantic feelings are there. These individuals may not be able to verbalize this to her, but that lack of trust is very painful for polr's. So they will lie, avoid, try to get away with avoiding these individuals who he sees at taking away attention from him.
    It's too much to expect, though. And if I did it anyway, for the sake of protecting the polr, you would just take advantage, you know you would.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Lol, you're making it seem like I have multiple boyfriends simultaneously. ILE ex is totally out of the picture, it ended badly with him.

    But this was helpful. And I also like to make things difficult for them, in a way, to also test if they care or not. I guess I'm mostly talking about the SLE now, bc like I said before OLD COLLEGE FRIENDS. Can't we just leave the sex out?
    Nope.... ^_^ What's the payoff for him to meet if it's just him getting all wound up with nothing to show.

    Obviously it's on your mind too and you might have even thought about it.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    It's too much to expect, though. And if I did it anyway, for the sake of protecting the polr, you would just take advantage, you know you would.
    I would take advantage for sure, but I offer things in return.

    Just figure out how much you care about this person and if that's how you feel about this individual. Just don't ask to hangout with your other friends around or hang with him with his friends, what happens is that by complaining about it when they don't show up, they KNOW they're being put lower, and they will withhold themselves somewhat.

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    Hmm. There was this ILE guy who was into me, but I'd made it clear that I didn't want to pursue something serious with him--at some point he asked me out to lunch on a certain day, I agreed, he said b/c of his work schedule he'd text me on that day with the specific time, and then he didn't text me at all. No reasons, just sheer silence ever since then. I figured this was better for him so I just let it be, but if he ever does contact me again I would be like, "Yeah no dude. That's extremely not cool. For the record, I didn't say anything because I was being nice."

    With my most recent ILE ex, after I broke up with him he was still like "let's hook up!" and kept talking to me. Then, at some point I mentioned I was hooking up with someone else. We had a stupid fight, and then he never contacted me again, even though he knew that I'm likely moving to a different region of the country and had previously wanted to spend time together before I moved. No explanation, just silence ever since then. Again, I figured it might be better this way, and I felt bad about the whole thing, so I also didn't try to contact him. But still!

    Fi-PoLRs...

    Although, I did also have an experience with an LII where he'd suggested we'd maybe get dinner the next day, I said cool, I'd set aside the entire evening for him and was waiting for his text, and nothing came. And then the day after that he was like "let's get dinner tonight!" as if nothing had happened. I decided to be lenient and think of that as a misunderstanding, but either way communication would have been appreciated.

    #rationals
    #people
    #maybe I am just bad with men

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Hmm. There was this ILE guy who was into me, but I'd made it clear that I didn't want to pursue something serious with him--at some point he asked me out to lunch on a certain day, I agreed, he said b/c of his work schedule he'd text me on that day with the specific time, and then he didn't text me at all. No reasons, just sheer silence ever since then. I figured this was better for him so I just let it be, but if he ever does contact me again I would be like, "Yeah no dude. That's extremely not cool. For the record, I didn't say anything because I was being nice."

    With my most recent ILE ex, after I broke up with him he was still like "let's hook up!" and kept talking to me. Then, at some point I mentioned I was hooking up with someone else. We had a stupid fight, and then he never contacted me again, even though he knew that I'm likely moving to a different region of the country and had previously wanted to spend time together before I moved. No explanation, just silence ever since then. Again, I figured it might be better this way, and I felt bad about the whole thing, so I also didn't try to contact him. But still!

    Fi-PoLRs...

    Although, I did also have an experience with an LII where he'd suggested we'd maybe get dinner the next day, I said cool, I'd set aside the entire evening for him and was waiting for his text, and nothing came. And then the day after that he was like "let's get dinner tonight!" as if nothing had happened. I decided to be lenient and think of that as a misunderstanding, but either way communication would have been appreciated.

    #rationals
    #people
    #maybe I am just bad with men
    This happened all the time when I was pseudo-seeing an ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Regarding him not showing up, I think Hkkmr really hit the nail on the head. If he doesn't see the return on spending that time with you, he's not going to do it and it's easier to just let that instance go. And really, if he's wanting to spend time with you, and is then having to spend time with people who are not really his friends, but your friends, it's just more social management he has to deal with.
    OK sorry for not being clear about this. He made it very clear that he wanted to meet 1:1. I told him friends would leave at 7:30, which was actually their plan too. One stayed a little longer to wait with me. He didn't turn up and we ended up just having fun drinking. So, that excuse is void.

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    Find a more honest Fi-polr. Ditch the Lothario.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Hmm. There was this ILE guy who was into me, but I'd made it clear that I didn't want to pursue something serious with him--at some point he asked me out to lunch on a certain day, I agreed, he said b/c of his work schedule he'd text me on that day with the specific time, and then he didn't text me at all. No reasons, just sheer silence ever since then. I figured this was better for him so I just let it be, but if he ever does contact me again I would be like, "Yeah no dude. That's extremely not cool. For the record, I didn't say anything because I was being nice."

    With my most recent ILE ex, after I broke up with him he was still like "let's hook up!" and kept talking to me. Then, at some point I mentioned I was hooking up with someone else. We had a stupid fight, and then he never contacted me again, even though he knew that I'm likely moving to a different region of the country and had previously wanted to spend time together before I moved. No explanation, just silence ever since then. Again, I figured it might be better this way, and I felt bad about the whole thing, so I also didn't try to contact him. But still!

    Fi-PoLRs...

    Although, I did also have an experience with an LII where he'd suggested we'd maybe get dinner the next day, I said cool, I'd set aside the entire evening for him and was waiting for his text, and nothing came. And then the day after that he was like "let's get dinner tonight!" as if nothing had happened. I decided to be lenient and think of that as a misunderstanding, but either way communication would have been appreciated.

    #rationals
    #people
    #maybe I am just bad with men
    You're too nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Yesterday I was supposed to meet up with an old SLE college friend that I have a pretty heavy history with. Romantic too, at a certain point, and otherwise just vitriolic. He's one of those really fucked up SLEs too, or so I thought though now I think there is just something wrong with all EP temperaments (except female IEE and SEE).

    Anyway when I do talk to him he's very apologetic about our past and tries to show that he really wants to make amends and that he values my friendship. So finally I decide to take the initiative in meeting up in person, and tell him to meet me at a pub where I was meeting a high school friend, so that it's not awkward.. and also kind of so I'm in a decent position. He usually angles for situations where the other person is forced to feel more awkward, to cover up his own goddamn awkwardness.. you know how that goes with SLE. He didn't turn up, and I had a pretty fun time drinking with my girl friend, though I had made up my mind that I would go on a drunken rage at him the minute I got home.

    I did do this, and he gave an excuse that he had a lot of work, though he could have just said that earlier instead of being an asshole. He tried to act like this was super low priority, he didn't even think about it, but I mean who does that? Why go through so much of a charade?

    Then I remembered an ILE ex of mine who did similar things.. getting caught up in work and totally blowing off commitments related to hanging out with people they are very comfortable with (aka take for granted).

    First of all, they are not the fucking CEO, they are probably pretty replaceable according to everyone but themselves. Second, it's a Fi-POLR thing, but it's shocking how unaware they are of it. Like, it's not even a thing for them. Why do they think this? I mean my Te-POLR hits me in the face in very tangible ways, and I have to say that it gives me humility, which is a valuable thing. Humility gives you substance below the smoke-and-mirror show which is the only thing that EXTp is capable of.

    Another thing is how much of what comes out of their mouths is on-the-spot bullshit with the intent of improving their own position at the cost of someone else. This is what makes (some?) of them outright despicable, because it's not fun bullshit, it's not imaginative bullshit, it's straight up gaslighting. Except when the other person actually knows more, then its just them making a fool of themselves and not realizing it, because (aha!) Fi-POLR.

    For example, while I was drunkenly raging, I mentioned that he's sent me some pretty compromising emails (girls are like apples poem, when he has a longtime steady. I mean we can blame Fi-POLR again here, but that is just plain disrespectful to his gf). Idk what my point was, exactly, other than the fact that I don't call him out or make things difficult for him even when he makes it easy, not because I'm stupid, but because I care and that is at least worth telling someone you can't make it instead standing them up and acting like they have so many other important things to do. His response is to tell me his company uses an email-tracking whatever which allows him to see how many times I open his emails, and that was why he agreed to try and meet me in the first place.

    Now, everyone listen carefully. Before, this manouvre would have totally blindsided me and the rest would have been a victory march for him. I used to be mortified whenever he made me feel like I was still hung up over him while he never gave a fuck. But, this is only what he wants me to think (see above: gaslighting). It's clever, actually, making use of all the information he already has: I'm too un-tech-savvy to know whether the email tracking thing is true or not; I'm drunk; I'm upset by his actions. How to consolidate this into real power over me? BAM you want me more than I want you!

    I will give him credit though, for hiding the brush strokes really fucking well. I will also give credit to ILE ex for being much less smooth but pulling all the same shit, effectively rendering himself into the perfect training manual on How To Read EXTp Dummies. (lol)

    I've dealt with this ilk before and Fox is right in that it's not specifically an PoLR problem, but a result of someone being far too arrogant to see their own faults and try to fix them. When it comes to people like these, I just have very low expectations with them and plan everything as if their word has no value so it has little to no impact on me as a result. As a result of past experience, I pretty much expect them to screw me over in some way and because I do I usually escape the situation completely unaffected since I have so little invested in it emotionally. If they actually deliver in their promises then that's just a bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    I think there is just something wrong with all EP temperaments (except female IEE and SEE).
    What's wrong with male IEEs and SEEs? T_T
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    What's wrong with male IEEs and SEEs? T_T
    All Ep are very proud, so full of themselves... Perhaps the Fi valuing are less shitty/more aware of other people's feelings but still...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    All Ep are very proud, so full of themselves... Perhaps the Fi valuing are less shitty/more aware of other people's feelings but still...
    True, but I was wondering what made female IEEs and SEEs exempt from this and not male IEEs and SEEs.
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    @sssonyyy

    I'm curious about what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there? If I was in the guys situation, I would see this as a '3rd party random' who isn't exactly going to remain neutral towards me since they are your friend, and I wouldn't want to position myself in a situation where some 3rd party person may or may not be judging me, and probably judging me more and more with more alcohol.

    Also, I would have thought, "How can I communicate with you about the things we have in common when there is someone there I don't know and isn't really appropriate to share or discuss certain things with"

    I'm really just wondering what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there. Not sticking up for this guy, but I would say next time round, or in a similar situation in the future, would it seem more reasonable to meet him one on one? Compromise: Meet one on one to begin with, can then see if other person OK with meeting up your friend later.

    Anyway, curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    What's wrong with male IEEs and SEEs? T_T
    Sorry, the ones I know are super flaky, unreliable, untrustworthy too, tbh. The females I end up being bff with, somehow. I feel like girls embrace being an ethical type a lot more gracefully. Whereas the guys.. idk. I mean I'm basing this off two IEE guys, so I may be completely wrong. They were both definitely charming though.

    On a similar note, female ILEs I know are also a bit sketchy and untrustworthy..even those I am very close with talk sooo. much. shit. I mean, I could go anywhere and nowhere with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    @sssonyyy

    I'm curious about what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there? If I was in the guys situation, I would see this as a '3rd party random' who isn't exactly going to remain neutral towards me since they are your friend, and I wouldn't want to position myself in a situation where some 3rd party person may or may not be judging me, and probably judging me more and more with more alcohol.

    Also, I would have thought, "How can I communicate with you about the things we have in common when there is someone there I don't know and isn't really appropriate to share or discuss certain things with"

    I'm really just wondering what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there. Not sticking up for this guy, but I would say next time round, or in a similar situation in the future, would it seem more reasonable to meet him one on one? Compromise: Meet one on one to begin with, can then see if other person OK with meeting up your friend later.

    Anyway, curious.
    It wasn't third party! I was meeting them, they were leaving early, SLE was to come after. I KNOW he doesn't like that scenario, he told me about it also. We are at least that much upfront with each other. On the other hand, it makes it even more dodgy that he specified terms for this meeting but still didn't come. I mean one day he's thinking about it enough to be all.. "TBH I'd really rather meet 1:1 in this place blah blah" and the next day he's like "oh it slipped my mind I'm so busy"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    @sssonyyy

    I'm curious about what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there? If I was in the guys situation, I would see this as a '3rd party random' who isn't exactly going to remain neutral towards me since they are your friend, and I wouldn't want to position myself in a situation where some 3rd party person may or may not be judging me, and probably judging me more and more with more alcohol.

    Also, I would have thought, "How can I communicate with you about the things we have in common when there is someone there I don't know and isn't really appropriate to share or discuss certain things with"

    I'm really just wondering what you were trying to achieve with having your friend there. Not sticking up for this guy, but I would say next time round, or in a similar situation in the future, would it seem more reasonable to meet him one on one? Compromise: Meet one on one to begin with, can then see if other person OK with meeting up your friend later.

    Anyway, curious.
    I mean OK, I guess I was trying to make it look like I had something else to do to other than just be meeting him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    I mean OK, I guess I was trying to make it look like I had something else to do to other than just be meeting him.
    People are so complex why isn't there a formula which I can use anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Sorry, the ones I know are super flaky, unreliable, untrustworthy too, tbh. The females I end up being bff with, somehow. I feel like girls embrace being an ethical type a lot more gracefully. Whereas the guys.. idk. I mean I'm basing this off two IEE guys, so I may be completely wrong. They were both definitely charming though.

    On a similar note, female ILEs I know are also a bit sketchy and untrustworthy..even those I am very close with talk sooo. much. shit. I mean, I could go anywhere and nowhere with this.
    I see, fair enough. It sucks that you've had some bad experiences with IEE males. Hopefully, future ones you meet will be better.
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    If somebody is being ass-y, most people will cut it out if more than one person asks them to stop. If it's just one person or a few people that is against somebody doing something then it's just subjective opinion of the person's assholeness. But if many people tell them to cut it out, they should stop. Social scorn is a powerful positive tool. However there are a few douchebags who won't do this (and this tactic obviously doesn't apply to every circumstance) but there are more good people than you think. Guilt, shame and empathy are good for ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    This happened all the time when I was pseudo-seeing an ILE.
    Oh my god. How did that go?

    And @sssonyyy it sounds like you've been having bad experiences with people in general...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Oh my god. How did that go?

    And @sssonyyy it sounds like you've been having bad experiences with people in general...
    It went horribly. Basically what sssonyyy described. He'd make solid plans and then just... poof, they never happened or he'd text the next night or a week later and say, sorry...was busy then..how about tonight?

    It's like he had a radar when I really wanted to hang out, he'd back out. But when I really wasn't into hanging and close to pulling what he had pulled...he'd suddenly be extremely interested and give me ultimatums if I said no thanks- it was basically just to ensure for himself that he had the upperhand. He did that with all of his ladies. He was extremely emotionally needy looking back at it objectively. He HAD to be talking to or texting someone to feel lively/entertained/likeable.. he was extremely reliant on praise from others. When I finally did tell him to fuck off, I said a few things I thought would play on his insecurities..and they did. He then texted me for two weeks asking me questions, asking to see me, asked if he was bad in bed (even though he was a total man slut)... in the end the whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth at how incredibly selfish he was, and yet the women he racked in were pretty amazing (superficially...I didn't know them well...the ones I did, had their own issues, and also had fucking VALLEY GIRL VOICES, wtf's up with that...). Good riddance. I like follow through or at the very least someone who respects my time even just a bit enough to send simple message of--- hey, really can't tonight, i'm tired. call you tomorrow? I was way too lenient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    But if many people tell them to cut it out, they should stop.
    Your mangina is showing truck. I'm positive the daily mail has shown that men never respond to social compliance and are more likely to respond to individuals due to less developed communication lobes in the right-rear-brain which makes them dumb at communicating, especially in groups (factoid: which by the way is why when men fall backwards in industrial accident a huge number lose the ability to speak). Besides: Fe PoLRs will respond in the opposite direction, have you learned NOTHING from socionics in 8,398 posts?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    It went horribly. Basically what sssonyyy described. He'd make solid plans and then just... poof, they never happened or he'd text the next night or a week later and say, sorry...was busy then..how about tonight?

    It's like he had a radar when I really wanted to hang out, he'd back out. But when I really wasn't into hanging and close to pulling what he had pulled...he'd suddenly be extremely interested and give me ultimatums if I said no thanks- it was basically just to ensure for himself that he had the upperhand. He did that with all of his ladies. He was extremely emotionally needy looking back at it objectively. He HAD to be talking to or texting someone to feel lively/entertained/likeable.. he was extremely reliant on praise from others. When I finally did tell him to fuck off, I said a few things I thought would play on his insecurities..and they did. He then texted me for two weeks asking me questions, asking to see me, asked if he was bad in bed (even though he was a total man slut)... in the end the whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth at how incredibly selfish he was, and yet the women he racked in were pretty amazing (superficially...I didn't know them well...the ones I did, had their own issues, and also had fucking VALLEY GIRL VOICES, wtf's up with that...). Good riddance. I like follow through or at the very least someone who respects my time even just a bit enough to send simple message of--- hey, really can't tonight, i'm tired. call you tomorrow? I was way too lenient.
    This is a complete guess, but he might have been afraid of a relationship (Fi-polr issues) and wanted to limit his interaction to the times you'd be least likely to seek that kind of closeness. It's possible that he felt unsure of himself or how you'd react to him. That may have limited him from advancing beyond the superficial stage where he was comfortable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    It went horribly. Basically what sssonyyy described. He'd make solid plans and then just... poof, they never happened or he'd text the next night or a week later and say, sorry...was busy then..how about tonight?

    It's like he had a radar when I really wanted to hang out, he'd back out. But when I really wasn't into hanging and close to pulling what he had pulled...he'd suddenly be extremely interested and give me ultimatums if I said no thanks- it was basically just to ensure for himself that he had the upperhand. He did that with all of his ladies. He was extremely emotionally needy looking back at it objectively. He HAD to be talking to or texting someone to feel lively/entertained/likeable.. he was extremely reliant on praise from others. When I finally did tell him to fuck off, I said a few things I thought would play on his insecurities..and they did. He then texted me for two weeks asking me questions, asking to see me, asked if he was bad in bed (even though he was a total man slut)... in the end the whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth at how incredibly selfish he was, and yet the women he racked in were pretty amazing (superficially...I didn't know them well...the ones I did, had their own issues, and also had fucking VALLEY GIRL VOICES, wtf's up with that...). Good riddance. I like follow through or at the very least someone who respects my time even just a bit enough to send simple message of--- hey, really can't tonight, i'm tired. call you tomorrow? I was way too lenient.
    oh gosh I had to deal with this same exact behavior with an ex. It's an emotional roller coaster and a complete mind fuck. They're only concerned about being wanted, they don't care AT ALL what they're doing to you in the mean time. Ugh, this kind of behavior is sickening to me. I wouldn't say it's only a certain type that does this... It basically comes down to them being immature narcissists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    And @sssonyyy it sounds like you've been having bad experiences with people in general...
    Yea maybe it's me

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Sorry, the ones I know are super flaky, unreliable, untrustworthy too, tbh. The females I end up being bff with, somehow. I feel like girls embrace being an ethical type a lot more gracefully. Whereas the guys.. idk. I mean I'm basing this off two IEE guys, so I may be completely wrong. They were both definitely charming though.

    On a similar note, female ILEs I know are also a bit sketchy and untrustworthy..even those I am very close with talk sooo. much. shit. I mean, I could go anywhere and nowhere with this.
    Given all that, you put peak unfavorability at the peak of ILE for EP, gradually decreasing as the distance from ILE increases. Obvious solution, go for SEEs, we rule it! I hate drama and flakiness and I have zero tolerance for that shit. I haven't been stressed for ages, and once I get off the toilet, I'm gonna shower, pick some protein up at Wal-Mart, and bike into the night, probably passing out for a few hours as I look up at the stars from a vacant playground. Life ain't gotta be hard, and it ain't gotta be duals for shit to rules. Me and IEIs is excellent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Given all that, you put peak unfavorability at the peak of ILE for EP, gradually decreasing as the distance from ILE increases. Obvious solution, go for SEEs, we rule it! I hate drama and flakiness and I have zero tolerance for that shit. I haven't been stressed for ages, and once I get off the toilet, I'm gonna shower, pick some protein up at Wal-Mart, and bike into the night, probably passing out for a few hours as I look up at the stars from a vacant playground. Life ain't gotta be hard, and it ain't gotta be duals for shit to rules. Me and IEIs is excellent.
    I had an SEE best friend in middle school, we definitely got along super. She's really into spirituality or something now. We had a little phrase, coca-cola, which meant I love you. We figured it was less gay to say coca cola to each other in public. We were 12 and didn't want people to think we were lesbians lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You should read the http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...Socioscope_SLE description.

    It basically describes everything you complain about, this is quite common.
    "morals were devised by the weak to govern the strong"?? wtf does zhukov think, they are khal drogo or something? I mean go live with horse-tending nomads then, instead of in a society.

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    Heh. Both my brothers are ExTPs, so this sounds familiar in the sense that my brothers are both douchy to women…

    If I were you I’d treat him like he was disposable. I’ve done this to every ExTP I’ve dated and they hate it. I don’t think its type related, but I’ve never really taken one seriously, and I’ve found them boring in my experiences. I’ve even gone out of my way to torment a couple because they were narcissists. To a narcissist, I am the poison of their choice.

    I wouldn't damn the whole type, but I hope this is helpful.
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    In my experience - IEI and SLE duality (or any relationship these types can have) can become VERY dangerous and very fucking unpleasant. If it's bad, please don't hold onto some hope or belief in duality. Please be careful and take care of yourself.

    In terms of SOME SLEs who may just be generally dickish, yeah I agree can be common. I also feel while entps can be insensitive, estps desire for power and control can be more damaging in some cases. However, I don't say this is true of all sles, I know some sles that are a victim of IEIs .

    Speaking as the girlfriend of a reformed SLE prick. I used to approach him with softness and kindness and try to understand and empathize with him. Don't reward them with that shit unless they have strove to develop themselves, apologize; and have earned it. With my boyfriend, I just began to approach all his shit like it was unacceptable. He resisted, we got into fights; just go hard, and eventually they will see they are in the wrong...as any logical person would. If they don't not worth your time and in which case, I completely agree with chriscosey, treat them like they are disposable, and continually relate that to the fact that their bad behaviour makes them so . Take no shit, and when they are in the wrong really make a point they are, and refuse to have them shift the blame to you; you know you did nothing wrong; don't let them run a power play when it's got nothing to do with power, but fucking social etiquette and human decency.

    Okay as a basic example

    In the past he will say something, and I will be like "what the fuck? Don't fucking say that me"- just act like a indignant bitch, that won't let up, that's RIGHTLY Pissed. Don't be like "oh can't believe you said that! you really hurt me" - just stress the fact that their behaviour is not on. You can be like 'don't say that because it's damaging and hurtful and makes me distant from you' when things have cooled down; if, and only if you're in a position of trust and they genuinely see they are wrong and you genuinely won't do it again.

    He's probably playing games with you because he thinks he can, show him he's underestimated you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    It went horribly. Basically what sssonyyy described. He'd make solid plans and then just... poof, they never happened or he'd text the next night or a week later and say, sorry...was busy then..how about tonight?

    It's like he had a radar when I really wanted to hang out, he'd back out. But when I really wasn't into hanging and close to pulling what he had pulled...he'd suddenly be extremely interested and give me ultimatums if I said no thanks- it was basically just to ensure for himself that he had the upperhand. He did that with all of his ladies. He was extremely emotionally needy looking back at it objectively. He HAD to be talking to or texting someone to feel lively/entertained/likeable.. he was extremely reliant on praise from others. When I finally did tell him to fuck off, I said a few things I thought would play on his insecurities..and they did. He then texted me for two weeks asking me questions, asking to see me, asked if he was bad in bed (even though he was a total man slut)... in the end the whole thing just left me with a bad taste in my mouth at how incredibly selfish he was, and yet the women he racked in were pretty amazing (superficially...I didn't know them well...the ones I did, had their own issues, and also had fucking VALLEY GIRL VOICES, wtf's up with that...). Good riddance. I like follow through or at the very least someone who respects my time even just a bit enough to send simple message of--- hey, really can't tonight, i'm tired. call you tomorrow? I was way too lenient.
    @lemontrees

    Oh my god!! I didn't realize how common this was!! My SLE guy friend does this shit all the time. He always says we will do this and that, we will do it tonight...never shows up. And then he calls me when he's drunk or like texts me "miss you!" "hello!" "why you not replying?!?!?" "you can forget seeing me at...!" haha get a grip. Children. Sometimes it's like they need all this emotional reassurance or they hide away...why should we stick our necks all the way out for them !
    Last edited by dinki; 07-19-2013 at 12:12 PM.
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    Errr on behalf of my brothers and this type, my brothers are insanely protective of me, so they don't treat all women bad... I once got drunk with one of their friends and we made out. The next day he pleaded with me not to tell them. It's ridiculous because I have to meet men in private or else they'll get hazed by my brothers friends or just beat up.

    I think if my brothers ever find a girl they really love then they'd be exceptional mates, until then...

    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    "If you are unhappy with the behavior of the Don in a given situation, tell him right away what exactly you didnít like and how he can fix it. Donít hope that he is going to guess where he was wrong, and most importantly, why it was the wrong thing to do. Better explain yourself. But if Don reacts to your words with a strange emotional reaction, then itís better to leave him alone for now and forget about the topics for a while. You'll see that after some time Don will understand that you were right and accept your advice".

    This is great advice ) from the ILE description . Should be in the SLE one as well imho.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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