View Poll Results: My verdict (anonymous poll)

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  • second degree murder

    1 3.70%
  • manslaughter

    7 25.93%
  • not guilty

    8 29.63%
  • I don't know enough to decide

    10 37.04%
  • I have not heard of this case

    1 3.70%
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Thread: If you had been on the jury (Zimmerman case)

  1. #121
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Not guilty. There wasn't enough to convince anyone beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Actually 3 of the jurors voted guilty the first vote, but they eventually got persuaded by the other jurors.

    This sort of thing happens all the time except the other way for black people charged with crimes. Some people vote to acquit, after some talk, it becomes a guilt conviction. This is what happens everyday in jurisdictions all around the US.

    There is a female convict, and she got 20 years for harming nothing.

    http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_ne..._gets_20_years

    It's been statistically shown that black people get harsher sentences and harsher punishment for the same exact crime.

    Prejudice is often unconscious and it's sinister effect on the decisions people make is quite dramatic.

    Did you know doctors think black people feel less pain, where white patients would get a prescription, black patient don't get the drugs they need.

    http://www.clinicaladvisor.com/clini...rticle/284877/

    http://racerelations.about.com/od/di...n-Medicine.htm

    There was enough evidence to convince 3 jurors of his guilt, and millions of other individuals who are watching this trial, but it wasn't enough for a conviction. That's the way this legal system works, but that doesn't mean injustice didn't happen and that people aren't being influenced consciously and subconsciously by race. That doesn't mean a black kid can walk down the street at night without feeling the eyes of the cops on him or feel like if he's shot by a cop or in this case a citizen, nothing will happen to protect him.

    Conscious and unconscious racism that exist in society is pervasive, harmful and keep people oppressed. It still exist today and it shows in cases like this and the harm it does to innocents is immeasurable. People aren't perfect, but if you're black and imperfect, you will pay a much stiffer price than other people. This is what happens today, and it should be an affront to anyone that desires justice.

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    Based on this case individually (which is what they were supposed to be taking into account, not the female convict, nor the overall systemic racism), I would not have found him guilty. There isn't enough evidence on the prosecutions side to show that he went out looking to kill a black kid. I wouldn't send someone to jail without being absolutely convinced that they deserved to go to jail; that's the whole "beyond reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty". There are doubts, but they're all reasonable in my mind. And I would think that some people went in there with preconceived notions just based on how much attention this case got.

    A summary of the trial overall:
    PROSECUTION'S CASE

    Trayvon martin walked to the store to grab some candy and a drink.

    On the way back to his parent's house (or step parents), he was profiled by Zimmerman based solely on his attire and race for simply walking in his neighborhood.

    Zimmerman was a "wannabe cop" who had taken criminal justice classes in the past, applied to be a cop, and started the neighborhood watch program.

    There had been several recent instances of burglaries and other crimes in the neighborhood. Zimmerman was fed up with the criminals getting away, as evidenced by his statements "fuckin punks" and "assholes" muttered to himself while on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher.

    Fed up with these criminals, Zimmerman profiled Trayvon, and wasn't about to let him get away. Zimmerman followed him in his truck, until he lost sight of him. Then he proceeded to get out of his vehicle and again follow/chase down/stalk Trayvon like a vigilante.

    The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following the person (Trayvon). Zimmerman said yes. Dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". Zimmerman replied "OK", but chose to do so anyway.

    Zimmerman chased Trayvon down a walking path between houses.

    He caught up with Trayvon and started a confrontation. This ended with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon in cold blood all as a result of him trying to take the law into his own hands, or seek revenge for the past neighborhood crimes on someone he thought was a criminal.

    Note about the above point: It's intentionally vague, because the prosecution was extremely vague about it because they didn't have a lot of evidence to support an exact scenario of how the confrontation began. The defense had their (Zimmerman's) version which I will point out below, but without an exact scenario to rely on, the prosecution mainly relied on rhetorical questions like "is that really what happened?" and tried to pick apart Zimmerman's statement. They said unfortunately Trayvon wasn't here to give his side of the story and this is all George's fault (which is true to a degree, but not evidence of anything). They argued that Zimmerman's past behavior on its own was enough to prove he started the confrontation.

    Note 2: Also they went back and forth dozens of times in the trial depending on witnesses and evidence trying to prove how the gunshot happened. They argued Zimmerman could have shot him any possible way, then they argued Zimmerman was on top, then they argued Zimmerman was on bottom but wasn't in fear of his life, then they argued Zimmerman was on bottom but Trayvon was in the process of backing off and yelling "help" when he saw the gun. They really didn't have the evidence on their side here, so they just intentionally laid seeds of doubt over every aspect of the evidence and Zimmerman's story instead of arguing one provable or most likely scenario. This also applies to most of the events of the evening since they didn't have a secondary account of the events to rely on beyond Zimmerman's.

    When Zimmerman was questioned by police, he used his knowledge of the law to try to pass off his fabricated story about what happened. He knew exactly what to say to not get charged or convicted. Zimmerman was a liar, and thought he was smart enough to trick the police into believing his story. There are discrepancies in his story, and this proves he is a liar and guilty.

    DEFENSE'S CASE

    Trayvon walking home from store.

    Zimmerman is an upstanding member of the neighborhood. History of helping neighbors and reporting crimes as part of neighborhood watch without incident in the past.

    Trayvon is acting suspicious. Zimmerman sees him and calls the non-emergency police to report this. Zimmerman says Trayvon is standing/walking through front yards looking through windows; one of which is a house or next to a house that has been recently burgled. It's raining hard which makes Zim more suspicious of Trayvon's stopping and casual wandering.

    Zimmerman tells dispatcher "he looks black" (when he was asked about his race), "This guy's up to something" "On drugs or something". (latter 2 quotes are from memory).

    Zim proceeds to drive by and then parks at housing clubhouse, then continues toward Trayvon to keep his eyes on him to tell the dispatcher where police should go. Trayvon goes by and "checks him out" looking at him in his truck.

    Shortly after, Trayvon starts to run/jog away and disappears down the walkway between houses. Zimmerman gets out of car and goes down walkway to get the address of the next street over to tell police where to go. Zimmerman passes the T intersection Trayvon had turned off down another sidewalk, and continues down path to the next street over. At the next street, Zimmerman ends the police call and begins walking back to his truck.

    In the process, Trayvon meets back up with him at the T intersection that he had turned down, having either waited for Zimmerman, or came back to confront him.

    Trayvon says "What's your [fucking] problem?" Zimmerman says "I don't got a problem". Trayvon may have said something else, but then immediately punched Zimmerman in the face and knocked him down/back. (Quotes are from memory)

    Fight ensues. Trayvon ends up "mounting" Zimmerman and begins to punch him in the face repeatedly, and slam his head on the concrete sidewalk. Zimmerman fears for his life. Screams help multiple times. Zimmerman finally able to get his gun out of his waistband and shoot Trayvon once in the torso in self defense. Most witness testimony backs this up.

    Zimmerman calmly awaits police arrival and surrenders himself. (that last part isn't really disputed by prosecution).

    Trayvon must have been upset that Zimmerman was following him. Told his female friend on the phone a creepy guy was behind him. When Trayvon ended the call he said he was going to run home, and at that point 4 minutes elapsed between that statement and the time the fight began (based on evidence, give or take a few seconds). Trayvon was less than 100 yards from home at that point. Meaning he had 4 minutes to travel/"run" less than 100 yards, unless he either chose to hide and wait, or turn around and go back to intercept Zimmerman at the intersection, making him the more likely aggressor.

    Zimmerman had no ill will, hatred, or spite toward blacks as a whole or Trayvon individually. He was just trying to be a helpful member of the neighborhood watch. Maybe he shouldn't have gotten out of his vehicle that night, but it is not illegal to follow someone. If it wasn't for Trayvon attacking him and not relenting, Zimmerman would not have been put in the position to have to shoot someone to defend himself. Homicide is justifiable and legal when you "perceive" your life is in danger or you are in danger of immediate severe bodily harm. That should apply with Zimmerman getting punched and head slammed on concrete.

    Zimmerman is not a criminal mastermind, or shrewd student of the law. He took a couple of classes at a local college a few years ago. He didn't invent an elaborate story to tell police everything they want to hear. The discrepancies in his stories are perfectly normal and not significant enough to take away his credibility entirely.

    All police officers who took the stand (as best I can remember) supported Zimmerman's statements, and said they were as consistent as you would expect, and that the minor inconsistencies were normal and not enough to affect Zimmerman's credibility overall. Police say Zimmerman didn't even know Trayvon was dead until they told him at the police station, and he reacted by being upset about this news. He also told police that he prayed a security camera or someone nearby had a video of what happened.

    Inadmissible evidence:

    Based on texts and social media, Trayvon got in several fights recently, and said he loved fighting (not a direct quote).

    Trayvon recently texted a friend about possibly purchasing an illegal firearm.

    Trayvon likely sold weed to his friends. May have been a one time thing or maybe a drug dealer. Used marijuana and drug "lean" according to texts. May have sold Codeine as well... an ingredient in "lean". Recently suspended from school for drug possession. Marijuana found in his system at time of death, but not enough to be substantial.

    Police never wanted to press charges. State prosecutor's office forced it, likely after public outcry.

    Member of the state's prosecutor's office was recently fired in relation to covering up evidence relating to the data taken from Trayvon's phone. (Follow up on this story for yourself for details. What I just wrote is a half-assed headline.)

    One of the lead police officers testified that he thought Zimmerman was "truthful" in all his statements. The prosecutor objected and got it stricken from the record, but not until the next day at trial when they realized their mistake overnight by not objecting.

    Zimmerman passed a lie detector the night of the incident when asked about his side of the story.

    Zimmerman had domestic abuse issues in the past, resulting in restraining orders between him and an ex-fiancee.

    Zimmerman may have had a habit of calling 911 emergency or non-emergency numbers quite often to report incidents in the neighborhood.

    Zimmerman had a prior assault charge on a police officer from when he intervened when his friend was being confronted by them at a bar. Police were undercover without identification though and Zimmerman didn't realize. The charges were all dropped except a misdemeanor that went away after an alcohol education class or something.

    Some notes and personal thoughts about the case:

    (Everything up until this point was the prosecution's and defense's arguments, not mine. But since I'm here...)

    Prosecution did both a great and horrible job IMO. They didn't have nearly enough to work with for a conviction. The evidence just wasn't there. They did actually do a good job I felt with the emotional appeals and trying to paint a picture for the jury in hope that the jury would use personal feelings above the requirements of the law. They also did a poor job with witnesses, evidence gathering, trial management, and some of their arguments, which as I said were often times not based on the law whatsoever.

    Defense did great sowing seeds of reasonable doubt, and pushing the law above all else. They knew they had the evidence on their side. Sometimes they droned on too long, and maybe watered down some of the more important points they were making, but at other times they hit a home run with various demonstrations of evidence.

    Judge seemed to favor the prosecution over the defense. Seemed like she didn't appreciate the defense's style. Ruled against them more times than not, but ruled in their favor on some of the most significant issues.

    One of the biggest factors IMO was what happened the exact moment of the initial confrontation, which we only have Zimmerman's statement on. Without any other evidence or testimony about what happened at that exact moment, it's hard to not have reasonable doubt. What you can do however is make judgements about Zimmerman as a whole, particularly regarding the credibility of his story. In this regard almost everything of significance that he said was truthful and/or backed up by independent evidence that he didn't have knowledge of at the time he made the police statement. Hypothetically the issue here is that he could have told the truth about everything else, but just lied about the moment of the confrontation, and we would have no way of knowing. Without that knowledge though it's impossible to use it against him.

    Zimmerman's statements, despite being the dumbest thing you could do in the eyes of an attorney, may have helped him slightly in the eyes of the jury. If it was an "either/or" scenario, then without a doubt he would have been better off keeping his mouth shut. But considering everything he did wrong from a legal advice perspective, he didn't completely screw himself as bad as he could have. All of the police officers' testimony that they believed him and thought his statements were consistent was helpful, along with their testimony that the inconsistencies weren't enough to matter. Zimmerman's willingness to talk to police repeatedly without an attorney present and give up anything they asked with complete cooperation likely added to his credibility for the jury. It wasn't smart and legally if he had chosen to remain silent the judge specifically instructed the jury that choice couldn't be used against him, but it might have still helped. His other statements like "I pray a camera caught it on tape", and "he's dead?!" the night of the incident may have swayed credibility in his favor as well. I'm not supporting his personal legal choices, but they may have not all been entirely to his detriment.

    The defense didn't split hairs like the prosecution, and it lent more credibility to their case. They could have ripped apart Rachel Jeantel's testimony in their closing, or that of the various doctors who completely went back on their statements, or Trayvon using words like "cracker", etc. But all they said was "You look at the testimony yourself and decide" about the expert witnesses, and "kids say stuff like that, they're just kids" about Trayvon, and "She just didn't want to be a part of this trial, and who could blame her" about Rachel and her lying under oath.

    Meanwhile the prosecution nitpicked the most insignificant details imaginable: "Why was one of Trayvon's hoodie strings pulled further down than the other? Maybe he was losing the fight?" ... "If Trayvon was punching him, why didn't his flimsy watch fall off?" and so on during their closing arguments as if it was solid evidence. (Quotes are from memory/paraphrased)"


    Basically, he might have been a racist wannabe cop with a vendetta, but if I was a juror, I couldn't convict on the evidence available to me. It's better for one guilty man to go free than one innocent man to be sent to jail.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    The cat masturbater thread got longer faster.
    Incorrect.

    The original cat killer thread begun:
    04-14-2012, 04:44 PM
    And reached the 5th page
    04-29-2012, 02:44 PM

    There is 14 days, 22 hours between the first post and the fifth page.

    This thread begun:
    07-14-2013, 02:55 PM
    And reached the 5th page:
    07-17-2013 12:35 AM

    In here it's 2 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes.

    Times used are from the same timezone (which I didn't care to calculate).
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    "I am making an example of you. To send a message out to people everywhere, that if you want to hurt another human being, you better make sure they're the same color as you are." -Honorable Judge from South Park
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  5. #125
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    I couldn't convict on the evidence available to me. It's better for one guilty man to go free than one innocent man to be sent to jail.
    It's not the one "innocent" man going to jail that people are protesting about, it's the many black people going to jail when other people get a break.

    People wouldn't care about this if there weren't so many "innocent" black men being sent to prison for similar acts, with similarly shoddy evidence. People aren't angry just because one white man got off on killing a black kid, people are angry because of all that's happening right now, and this case is a symbol of that and a reminder that they can't catch a break in a system that punishes them.

    This case and it's ramifications are a indictment on the people within the system and not about just this case, this is a scenario that plays out in courts every day where a black person is convicted and a white one isn't, for the same exact crime with the same level of evidence.

    The things is people still believe in the system, because it's the only thing that can work, it's the people playing the parts, the cops who profile and target blacks, the jurors who make convictions based on conscious and unconscious racism, all the players and individuals who play their part to infect the system with injustice.

    Your denial that it matters just show you won't even consider your own prejudices when entering into judgement, because I won't be surprised at all if this had happened and you were in court in a low media trial with a black defendant you would have voted guilty, because you would have watched that mom give testimony and that dad give testimony and your heart would be swayed and you would look at that black defendant and you would profile him for all the wrong reasons.

    I don't believe you could be objective and impartial no matter how much you want to be. And the thing is, that defendant probably deserved to go to jail, probably did something stupid he shouldn't have done, and took a life he shouldn't have took.

    I can't change you, only you can change yourself, and you can deny that you would have made the same decision with a different defendant like so many others do, but it doesn't change the fact that many people don't. And until they do, I will always be skeptical of what people say about their own impartiality.

    Maybe you'll never understand, I don't blame you, you're a product of the environment and social product of your birth. But I'll tell you something, you're not colorblind, and I wouldn't trust you to vote a black person not-guilty in a similar trial, and no matter what you say to deny it, it doesn't change that fact people just like you are putting "not guilty" individuals in jail everyday and people just like you are letting individuals like Zimmerman walk.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    It's not the one "innocent" man going to jail that people are protesting about, it's the many black people going to jail when other people get a break.

    People wouldn't care about this if there weren't so many "innocent" black men being sent to prison for similar acts, with similarly shoddy evidence. People aren't angry just because one white man got off on killing a black kid, people are angry because of all that's happening right now, and this case is a symbol of that and a reminder that they can't catch a break in a system that punishes them.

    This case and it's ramifications are a indictment on the people within the system and not about just this case, this is a scenario that plays out in courts every day where a black person is convicted and a white one isn't, for the same exact crime with the same level of evidence.

    The things is people still believe in the system, because it's the only thing that can work, it's the people playing the parts, the cops who profile and target blacks, the jurors who make convictions based on conscious and unconscious racism, all the players and individuals who play their part to infect the system with injustice.

    Your denial that it matters just show you won't even consider your own prejudices when entering into judgement, because I won't be surprised at all if this had happened and you were in court in a low media trial with a black defendant you would have voted guilty, because you would have watched that mom give testimony and that dad give testimony and your heart would be swayed and you would look at that black defendant and you would profile him for all the wrong reasons.

    I don't believe you could be objective and impartial no matter how much you want to be. And the thing is, that defendant probably deserved to go to jail, probably did something stupid he shouldn't have done, and took a life he shouldn't have took.

    I can't change you, only you can change yourself, and you can deny that you would have made the same decision with a different defendant like so many others do, but it doesn't change the fact that many people don't. And until they do, I will always be skeptical of what people say about their own impartiality.

    Maybe you'll never understand, I don't blame you, you're a product of the environment and social product of your birth. But I'll tell you something, you're not colorblind, and I wouldn't trust you to vote a black person not-guilty in a similar trial, and no matter what you say to deny it, it doesn't change that fact people just like you are putting "not guilty" individuals in jail everyday.
    THE FACT THAT SOCIETY SUCKS IN SOME WAYS DOES NOT MAKE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN A MURDERER.

    its like people want him convicted and stoned and spit on for reasons that have NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. it blows my mind.

  7. #127
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    THE FACT THAT SOCIETY SUCKS IN SOME WAYS DOES NOT MAKE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN A MURDERER.

    its like people want him convicted and stoned and spit on for reasons that have NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. it blows my mind.
    I don't care if Zimmerman is a murderer or not. I voted manslaughter, because I view what he did to incite the situation as negligent and he had malicious intent towards Trayvon(calling him a punk and such). A grown man with a gun isn't afraid of a kid skinny kid without anything.

    This guy was packing heat, the idea of a grown man packing heat being scared of a kid is ridiculous to me. He was trying to be batman or a vigilante, got in over his head and killed Trayvon. Fear? Guy with a gun shouldn't feel fear, when he started this situation, he didn't feel fear.

    I don't care if he gets convicted or not, but I want the full weight of the justice system to be on him, and I want the discussion to happen and every single injustice that's happening today to be looked at.

    I'm always going to treat him, if I meet him as a pussy man with a gun who wanted to be some sort of superhero but never had the competence to even stop a unarmed kid. He killed this kid because he started something and in his stupidity and incompetence resorted to lethal force. I can't prove he's a murderer, but he's a incompetent coward in my eyes. I don't need him stoned for his crimes, but I want him to pay in civil court forever if he doesn't pay in criminal, and if the justice system fails entirely. I wouldn't cry if someone took things into their own hands. I also wouldn't cry if people made his life a living hell. He's lost right to my sympathy and respect for the rest of his life. And this is something he's lost for a lot of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I don't care if he gets convicted or not, but I want the full weight of the justice system to be on him, and I want the discussion to happen and every single injustice that's happening today to be looked at.

    I'm always going to treat him, if I meet him as a pussy man with a gun who wanted to be some sort of superhero but never had the competence to even stop a unarmed kid. He killed this kid because he started something and in his stupidity and incompetence resorted to lethal force. I can't prove he's a murderer, but he's a incompetent coward in my eyes. I don't need him stoned for his crimes, but I want him to pay in civil court forever if he doesn't pay in criminal, and if the justice system fails entirely. I wouldn't cry if someone took things into their own hands. I also wouldn't cry if people made his life a living hell. He's lost right to my sympathy and respect for the rest of his life. And this is something he's lost for a lot of people.
    Justice has won again as the angry inquisition mob discriminates an incompetent coward for the rest of his life.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Is there a reason you keep bring up things unrelated to this case? No shit there is institutional racism in America. Is there a reason you are telling me things about myself and condescending to me about things I never once suggested (seriously where did I call myself "colorblind"?) I'm also assuming that if a girl puts in a false report for rape because she was angry at her boyfriend, he should still go to jail because men *do* rape and there is sexism in america and this boyfriend needs to be punished for this, even if this guy didn't ACTUALLY rape anyone. Because men do rape and rape culture is present in america.

    tl;dr- Looking at the facts of this case, Zimmerman cannot be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, and shouldn't be punished to "get back at" the inherent racism in american society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Is there a reason you keep bring up things unrelated to this case? No shit there is institutional racism in America. Is there a reason you are telling me things about myself and condescending to me about things I never once suggested (seriously where did I call myself "colorblind"?) I'm also assuming that if a girl puts in a false report for rape because she was angry at her boyfriend, he should still go to jail because men *do* rape and there is sexism in america and this boyfriend needs to be punished for this, even if this guy didn't ACTUALLY rape anyone. Because men do rape and rape culture is present in america.

    tl;dr- Looking at the facts of this case, Zimmerman cannot be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, and shouldn't be punished to "get back at" the inherent racism in american society.
    Of course Zimmerman can be convicted, all it takes is a jury who thinks that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Nobody knows the facts of the case, thus it's up to a jury to decide. The jury decided otherwise, end of debate, but that doesn't mean the road to his punishment is over. Just ask OJ Simpson.

    I'm not going to advocate punishing him because of inherent racism in the US, I advocate punishing him because he deserves punishment, if not criminally, than thru civil court or thru social ostracizism. The truth is that he did something to deserve it unlike so many individuals who didn't do anything to deserve their harassment.

    He did something stupid, he deserves to be punished. There is no doubt about this.

    You can keep your denials up but the truth is you don't really understand or want to.

    Why are you even advocate not to punish this guy, have you even thought about that. He killed a kid because he was stupid, it wasn't against the law as per the court decision but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve punishment.

    I don't care about jail, and I don't care about your contrived scenario, there is no doubt Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin, there is no doubt that Zimmerman approached Trayvon, there's no doubt that Zimmerman made a mistake when he thought Trayvon was up to no good. There is absolutely no doubt about these things, all these mistakes he made. The fact he doesn't get any punishment is ludicrous. The criminal punishment phase is probably over unless he does something else stupid, but civil, and social punishment, he can get that, and does he deserve it. For a lot of people, he does and he will get it, and not because of the color of his skin but because he made mistakes, mistakes which he is no longer criminally culpable for but still can be held accountable for by society and individuals.

    This is not mob justice, this is individuals choosing to treat him as he deserves to be treated for the mistakes he's made and for the person he killed.

    It's not mob justice. No crowd of men ran to his house pulled him out and strung him up, they're protesting largely peacefully against him not getting any punishment at all.

    The desire for him to get punishment is understandable giving all the incontrovertible facts of the case, that it might not come from the government is ok. Individuals can still choose to punish him thru social ostracism and other means, all which is not because of what he did.

    Frankly, the case is over, I don't care about the case. I care about punishing this person one way or another for the stupid things he's done. It doesn't have to be jail or hurting him physically or anything like that, but making sure he never makes a dime off of this(he's going to look for a book deal probably) and making sure he never feels like he's not in prison are places I would like to start.

    Welcome to the United Prison of America.

    You keep bringing up race like it doesn't matter, you keep bring up the punishment like there should be none. What are you really trying to do, put your blinders on so this guy getting off with zero consequences will feel ok to you? It doesn't feel ok to me and it doesn't feel ok to millions of other people. I would feel a lot better if this guy gets some punishment, criminal, civil, social, regardless of whether or not he's guilty of murder.

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    even if zimmerman had killed martin in cold blood. its already been detailed in this thread how he went to prom with a black girl and sued a police dept etc etc. the only thing racial about any of it is that martin was black. fox's rape analogy is a good one, but its almost more like convicting someone for armed robbery because the woman who was held at gunpoint has felt oppressed by rape culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Justice has won again as the angry inquisition mob discriminates an incompetent coward for the rest of his life.
    The angry inquisition mob isn't asking for discrimination. They're asking for justice. They're peaceful angry people and you disrespect them.

    And there's nothing wrong with discriminating against a incompetent coward who killed someone with his stupidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    even if zimmerman had killed martin in cold blood. its already been detailed in this thread how he went to prom with a black girl and sued a police dept etc etc. the only thing racial about any of it is that martin was black. fox's rape analogy is a good one, but its almost more like convicting someone for armed robbery because the woman who was held at gunpoint has felt oppressed by rape culture.
    I think the racial issues here are unconscious and not conscious, I don't think the racial issue is huge except in the differences in judgement across many cases but it does symbolize the systemic injustice black people face and many will feel this is just another bad hand they've been dealt.

    This is not a girlfriend reporting someone for being jilted. This is someone that 100% killed someone else. Make no mistake, he killed Trayvon Martin, he 100% killed him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think the racial issues here are unconscious and not conscious, I don't think the racial issue is huge except in the differences in judgement across many cases but it does symbolize the systemic injustice black people face and many will feel this is just another bad hand they've been dealt.
    how can you acknowledge on one hand that it wasn't racially motivated while on the other hand essentially calling zimmerman a symbol of white oppression?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    how can you acknowledge on one hand that it wasn't racially motivated while on the other hand essentially calling zimmerman a symbol of white oppression?
    The racial issues are unconscious? It's not huge doesn't mean it's not a factor. There's obviously some profiling going on. Trayvon Martin is obviously a symbol for how cheap a black kid's life is in society, how easy it can be snuffed out without consequences.

    Don't even bring white into it since it could be an asian man or an hispanic man in this case. Zimmerman isn't a symbol, he doesn't deserve that, he's just a stupid guy who thought he was more than he was. Trayvon Martin is the symbol. It's important to make sure that his life isn't worthless, something to be snuffed out without consequence.

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    its unconscious. i think you're unconsciously disagreeing with me because you disrespect my intelligence as a woman. prove me wrong. what bullshit.

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    Lul.

    Yeah, make Martin's lyfe something after he is dead, clear thinking, hkkmr...

    Women's like lungs disagree as well.

    Heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    its unconscious. i think you're unconsciously disagreeing with me because you disrespect my intelligence as a woman. prove me wrong. what bullshit.
    Um have you looked at the medical links I posted earlier and how people discriminate against black people in diagnostics and prescribing? It happens all the time, constantly, every day.

    If I read that report, I would advise no black patient go to a white doctor or if they do go to a black doctor afterwards.

    You think these doctors are any better on a jury, you think these the average individual is better than doctors?

    Hey you can disregard my posts or what not, but I've given you some proof right.

    You twisted my words around already a lot. I think it's important that individuals recognize that Trayvon Martin's life is not worthless, and that there needs to be some consequences for his death. When this situation began Zimmerman was sent home without any consequences, no charges, a scenario that happens quite often in America.

    Millions of people know today that Trayvon Martin's life isn't worthless, that he didn't deserve to die.

    It's a win that Zimmerman will face the consequences of his actions in court, he has been acquitted of the criminal charges, but things don't end there. And people can still remember if they choose.

    FoxOnStilts obviously thinks that Trayvon Martin's life is worthless, she's basically said as much by comparing him to a female rape accusor who is lying, because that's how she thinks about Trayvon, as a liar? As a criminal? As the person in the wrong? It's insidious how unconscious the profiling gets and how we twist the truth to suit our thoughts eh. When did a dead kid become a lying rape accuser, when does that happen? Where in her head did that identity equation get made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Is there a reason you keep bring up things unrelated to this case? No shit there is institutional racism in America. Is there a reason you are telling me things about myself and condescending to me about things I never once suggested (seriously where did I call myself "colorblind"?) I'm also assuming that if a girl puts in a false report for rape because she was angry at her boyfriend, he should still go to jail because men *do* rape and there is sexism in america and this boyfriend needs to be punished for this, even if this guy didn't ACTUALLY rape anyone. Because men do rape and rape culture is present in america.
    Where in your mind did Trayvon Martin become a liar, where in your mind did Trayvon Martin become the person that started this tragic chain of event. Where in your mind is Trayvon Martin alive and not dead.

    Where in your mind did you demonize Trayvon Martin, because it's quite clear this is what you're trying to do even if you barely understand what you're doing.

    There is only one accuser here, and it's a corpse.

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    i'm not saying unconscious racism doesn't exist. its just really fucking convenient for you to pull it out just because you want to, without adequate evidence. its the equivalent of me pulling the feminism card out in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    The racial issues are unconscious? It's not huge doesn't mean it's not a factor. There's obviously some profiling going on. Trayvon Martin is obviously a symbol for how cheap a black kid's life is in society, how easy it can be snuffed out without consequences.

    Don't even bring white into it since it could be an asian man or an hispanic man in this case. Zimmerman isn't a symbol, he doesn't deserve that, he's just a stupid guy who thought he was more than he was. Trayvon Martin is the symbol. It's important to make sure that his life isn't worthless, something to be snuffed out without consequence.
    its not a fucking honor for you to mentally strip him down and replace him with your own projections. its not something special to be deserved. it cheapens everything and makes it all about "society," all about YOU. gross.

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    I obviously think his life was worthless.

    Obviously.



    I am everything that is wrong with America. Tell me more about myself, I insist (it is my favorite topic of conversation.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i'm not saying unconscious racism doesn't exist. its just really fucking convenient for you to pull it out just because you want to, without adequate evidence. its the equivalent of me pulling the feminism card out in this discussion.

    its not a fucking honor for you to mentally strip him down and replace him with your own projections. its not something special to be deserved. it cheapens everything and makes it all about "society," all about YOU. gross.
    This is 100% not about me, don't cheapen it by attacking me. This is about what consequences Zimmerman should face for the death of Trayvon Martin.

    I never said he deserves to be punished because of unconscious racism, that's false. I said that unconscious racism could have easily swayed the verdict by the jury. I.E if he was black, he might have been convicted by the jury. Of course I have the right to bring this into the conversation.

    I advocate punishing him because he deserves punishment, if not criminally, than thru civil court or thru social ostracizism. The truth is that he did something to deserve it unlike so many individuals who didn't do anything to deserve their harassment.

    The people protesting obviously are also protesting about race. I didn't bring race into this, a lot of people try to take race out of this, or complain about the protesters, well I don't agree with that. I didn't bring race into this, it's always been here.

    Let me state it clearly.

    Just because he was acquitted doesn't mean he doesn't deserve punishment.

    You can keep attacking me if you want, but it doesn't change the facts of the situation. Someone is dead, someone made mistakes, how and what the punishment are is yet to be decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    I obviously think his life was worthless.

    Obviously.



    I am everything that is wrong with America. Tell me more about myself, I insist (it is my favorite topic of conversation.)
    Are you sure this is not how you want to feel somewhere in that head of yours. Hey I don't blame you for your unconscious racism, it's something you don't even know about. But where in the world did you equivocate Trayvon Martin with a liar? Where did you equate a corpse with a false rape accusation?

    Don't worry, you're not the problem with America, but you could try and answer some of the questions I asked you, if only for yourself.

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    Protesters didn't kill any one yet, hkkmr, and full power to ban and punish person has been banned by you from this site. Anyway, I propose (again) that the16types.info lynch mob dug out and resurrected once again to punish Zimmerman for his race crimes committed on fellow America's more holier than you person.

    What's the verdict after the verdict has fallen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Are you sure this is not how you want to feel somewhere in that head of yours. Hey I don't blame you for your unconscious racism, it's something you don't even know about. But where in the world did you equivocate Trayvon Martin with a liar. Where did you equate a corpse with a false rape accusation.
    Keep it coming. I'm not even going to bother objecting. If I don't respond, I'm going to become a symbol of racism in America, too.

    The history books will read:
    -Emmett Till
    -Medgar Evers
    -M.L.K. Jr
    -O.J. Simpson
    -Terrence Howard
    -Trayvon Martin
    -FoxOnStilts

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    This is 100% not about me, don't cheapen it by attacking me. This is about what consequences Zimmerman should face for the death of Trayvon Martin.

    I never said he deserves to be punished because of unconscious racism, that's false. I said that unconscious racism could have easily swayed the verdict by the jury. I.E if he was black, he might have been convicted by the jury. Of course I have the right to bring this into the conversation.

    I advocate punishing him because he deserves punishment, if not criminally, than thru civil court or thru social ostracizism. The truth is that he did something to deserve it unlike so many individuals who didn't do anything to deserve their harassment.

    The people protesting obviously are also protesting about race. I didn't bring race into this, a lot of people try to take race out of this, or complain about the protesters, well I don't agree with that. I didn't bring race into this, it's always been here.

    Let me state it clearly.

    Just because he was acquitted doesn't mean he doesn't deserve punishment.

    You can keep attacking me if you want, but it doesn't change the facts of the situation. Someone is dead, someone made mistakes, how and what the punishment are is yet to be decided.
    let me know when you decide for sure what you're actually talking about.

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    Profiling is perfectly legal for American citizens to engage in, if he was doing so, which no one can prove. Zimmerman was not a police officer. Racial profiling is illegal in many jurisdictions, for police officers. Criminal profiling is not. Noticing that someone is taking suspicious action is not racial profiling.

    Although if anyone is taking suspicious action, it doesn't matter what race they are. It's the suspicious activity that alerts people the individual may be insane, on drugs, or looking to commit crime. There are people of all races who are dangerous, and I don't prefer any of them. This makes me racist against people of my own race.

    Zimmerman is also suing NBC because the police call to the dispatcher was misleadingly edited by NBC. He did not say anything racially-motivated, and there is no proof that he is racist. In fact, there is lots of evidence that he is not.

    If someone, no matter what race, is dressed gangster-style, I think they may be into gangster activities. Most people who aren't into the hipster lifestyle, for instance, don't dress like hipsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Keep it coming. I'm not even going to bother objecting. If I don't respond, I'm going to become a symbol of racism in America, too.

    The history books will read:
    -Emmett Till
    -Medgar Evers
    -M.L.K. Jr
    -O.J. Simpson
    -Terrence Howard
    -Trayvon Martin
    -FoxOnStilts
    Naw, you are just a human being who is writing on a socionics forum. You can respond in a thousand ways but that might not mean much. If you want me to demonize you, I won't.

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    America is a racist nation. Don't come to Europe. And if you ever feel(?) the need to, I'm going to draw you a map of places to avoid so you won't be beaten senseless for your racism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    If you want me to demonize you, I won't.
    It's too late for that, but it's okay. You can keep mansplaining things to me, but I understand it's all a result of your unconscious sexism, so I will forgive you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    America is a racist nation. Don't come to Europe. And if you ever feel(?) the need to, I'm going to draw you a map of places to avoid so you won't be beaten senseless for your racism.
    durrr gypsies. I have never heard anyone go off on such a racist rant as Europeans talking about gypsies. Or waitresses talking about how black people don't tip. Those two are tied for the "I'm not racist, but...." awards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    durrr gypsies. I have never heard anyone go off on such a racist rant as Europeans talking about gypsies. Or waitresses talking about how black people don't tip. Those two are tied for the "I'm not racist, but...." awards.
    A guy I knew got stabbed in the leg with a knife by one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    let me know when you decide for sure what you're actually talking about.
    I don't think you see the issue at all, the problem isn't that Zimmerman is a racist or if he's not a racist. It has to do the jury, the cops that arrested him, the fact that Trayvon Martin is just another dead black kid to a lot of people.

    I hear all sort of things like "Zimmerman isn't a racists, why does race matter?"

    That's not the same as "Why did Trayvon Martin death get ignored?" This is the question that was asked at the beginning by a lot of people.

    This is why Trayvon Martin is a symbol, for all the ignored dead black kids.

    A lot of people want to say "Zimmerman is not guilty, Zimmerman is innocent, Zimmerman is a hero." All sort of things, Trayvon isn't even being considered, he's just another dead back kid. Ignored in their thought, barely present because they've never had to deal with someone like him and only know them from some character or idea on TV.

    Fox displayed this pretty much. Fox only talked about Zimmerman's guilt or non-guilty status, without mentioning Trayvon's name or even his existance All she said is "not guilty", "no evidence", did Trayvon Martin even exist consciously for her. Is he even a human being to her? Oh if brought up, she'll have him in her mind but when she first started writing. Trayvon Martin is already dead and disappeared. The only thing that mattered is if Zimmerman was guilty or not guilty.

    Why is Trayvon Martin a symbol, because some people might blank him out but others don't want to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    It's too late for that, but it's okay. You can keep mansplaining things to me, but I understand it's all a result of your unconscious sexism, so I will forgive you.
    You seem a pretty average person to me.

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    Peruvians being racist towards African Americans. Only in America. And look fox, hkkmr is such a sexist bastard he would stab you for being a woman. I call for immediate action.



    Wonder which forum members remind me of those characters in vid. I'll start with Cpig from the left.
    Last edited by Absurd; 07-16-2013 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Fox only talked about Zimmerman's guilt or non-guilty status, without mentioning Trayvon's name or even his existance All she said is "not guilty", "no evidence", did Trayvon Martin even exist consciously for her. Is he even a human being to her? Oh if brought up, she'll have him in her mind but when she first started writing. Trayvon Martin is already dead and disappeared. The only thing that mattered is if Zimmerman was guilty or not guilty.
    Wait, who is Trayvon Martin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Fox displayed this pretty much. Fox only talked about Zimmerman's guilt or non-guilty status, without mentioning Trayvon's name or even his existance All she said is "not guilty", "no evidence", did Trayvon Martin even exist consciously for her. Is he even a human being to her? Oh if brought up, she'll have him in her mind but when she first started writing. Trayvon Martin is already dead and disappeared. The only thing that mattered is if Zimmerman was guilty or not guilty.
    maybe that's because the title of the OP and the focus of the poll revolve around zimmerman's guilt or innocence. responding directly to the OP without going on a tangent about poor dead black children is not discounting anybodys humanity, come on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Wait, who is Trayvon Martin?
    Yea, keep making fun of the situation. Keep thinking that this is funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    maybe that's because the title of the OP and the focus of the poll revolve around zimmerman's guilt or innocence. responding directly to the OP without going on a tangent about poor dead black children is not discounting anybodys humanity, come on.
    So Trayvon Martin's life is unimportant to this case? This is no tangent.

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