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Thread: Toxic home environment - what kind of relations do we have??

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    Default Toxic home environment - what kind of relations do we have??

    I'm back home after spending 2 - 3 years in India. My home environment is toxic, which I always knew, and which I foresaw even back in Mumbai, booking my ticket.. like a certain dread at the thought of being in close quarters with my parents.

    I've tried to use socionics to solve this problem. I've made my mom take the test several times over a span of like 3 years, and she's gotten every combination of type. In order, ESTp, ENTj, ESTj (MBTI test), ISTj, and then - wait for it - ENFp. The fuck?!? Observer effect, or something??

    My dad and I have the heaviest, most tense relationship imaginable, the scenario of me being like "hey dad wanna take this test" does not exist in our world. He's awkward and easily intimidated and prone to bursts of anger.. INTj? INFp? ENFj??

    My brother is IxTx, he gets INTp on the longer tests but also ISTj on the shorter ones. We get along fine.

    In the small groups article, there is that ring of supervision group that is guaranteed to give all 4 people a headache after 10 minutes with each other. I don't think that's the case - when we're all together interacting it's much lighter. When it's just us at home, with 3 introverts trying to be left alone and my attention-needy mom trying to engage us one by one, it quickly becomes unbearable. I seem to have the least tolerance for it.

    What's going on here??

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    Looks like your mum is prone to the MBTI effect, where type changes the moment you "look" at it and where employers hire people based on their MBTI code even though it is going to change a few days/months after.

    Why not try a Socionics test vs. MBTI test and start from there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    I'm back home after spending 2 - 3 years in India. My home environment is toxic, which I always knew, and which I foresaw even back in Mumbai, booking my ticket.. like a certain dread at the thought of being in close quarters with my parents.

    I've tried to use socionics to solve this problem. I've made my mom take the test several times over a span of like 3 years, and she's gotten every combination of type. In order, ESTp, ENTj, ESTj (MBTI test), ISTj, and then - wait for it - ENFp. The fuck?!? Observer effect, or something??

    My dad and I have the heaviest, most tense relationship imaginable, the scenario of me being like "hey dad wanna take this test" does not exist in our world. He's awkward and easily intimidated and prone to bursts of anger.. INTj? INFp? ENFj??

    My brother is IxTx, he gets INTp on the longer tests but also ISTj on the shorter ones. We get along fine.

    In the small groups article, there is that ring of supervision group that is guaranteed to give all 4 people a headache after 10 minutes with each other. I don't think that's the case - when we're all together interacting it's much lighter. When it's just us at home, with 3 introverts trying to be left alone and my attention-needy mom trying to engage us one by one, it quickly becomes unbearable. I seem to have the least tolerance for it.

    What's going on here??
    I'm just gonna jump in and pull shit from my ass here without an introduction since i planned to use this account to ask a question about another topic that never happened.

    But since you're IEI - and i'm SLE - i've noticed that both types sometimes originates from the same kind of dynamics in the family, where some parent fails to live up to the subconscious expectations someone has as a child of what their parents are supposed to deliver; and basically IEI becomes IEI by handling the situation by submitting to the people around him/her: putting them infront of themselves - and SLE becomes SLE by revolting against the parent/parents: and therefore being the same since they adapted to the same kind of conditions(of sorts, atleast on some symbolic subconscious level) but simply took different paths that gives them different information priorities but 'see the same world'.

    One develops observational skills on the enviroment - the other just 'zones out' creating an internal world that later becomes what this community calls or . This being something that happens early in life that makes SLE awkward as fuck when getting close to people and (can make) IEIs depressed/suicidal/substance abusers since they gave up and accepted they were defeated were early on that makes them adapt to others as a way of dealing with them instead of confronting them or escapism a basic trait (which is self defeating and therefore murders their ego; which leads to subconscious self-hatred in some cases).

    Where this sort of conditions are actually a part of the equation of the compost heap that is mankind - it's just people being shit being a part of the whole organism that is people.

    Based on that - which may or may not be related to your situation - i suggest you instead of MBTI/Socionics etcetera - look into info about 'narcissistic parents' and behavior seen in parents with personality disorders where they are emotionally stuck in stages you normally see 5-year olds in - if your mom is co-dependant for example she could have a seriously weak undeveloped personality that gives different results on MBTI-tests because she lacks a 'core' personality since she never developed one; and therefore would be drawn to your dad if he's a bit insane since she then replicates some relationship she had as a kid with someone of her parents. Or the other way around if your dad is the bitch in the relationship - http://www.lightshouse.org/ is a pretty good site.

    And i could just be projecting traits on you unrelated to your situation; but from my experience it's usually those variables that creates IEI/SLE in different magnitudes.

    Oh yea - and don't be a fucking martyr sticking around to that shit - that would just be self-destructive like mentioned above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stifffromgoths View Post
    I'm just gonna jump in and pull shit from my ass here without an introduction since i planned to use this account to ask a question about another topic that never happened.

    But since you're IEI - and i'm SLE - i've noticed that both types sometimes originates from the same kind of dynamics in the family, where some parent fails to live up to the subconscious expectations someone has as a child of what their parents are supposed to deliver; and basically IEI becomes IEI by handling the situation by submitting to the people around him/her: putting them infront of themselves - and SLE becomes SLE by revolting against the parent/parents: and therefore being the same since they adapted to the same kind of conditions(of sorts, atleast on some symbolic subconscious level) but simply took different paths that gives them different information priorities but 'see the same world'.

    One develops observational skills on the enviroment - the other just 'zones out' creating an internal world that later becomes what this community calls or . This being something that happens early in life that makes SLE awkward as fuck when getting close to people and (can make) IEIs depressed/suicidal/substance abusers since they gave up and accepted they were defeated were early on that makes them adapt to others as a way of dealing with them instead of confronting them or escapism a basic trait (which is self defeating and therefore murders their ego; which leads to subconscious self-hatred in some cases).

    Where this sort of conditions are actually a part of the equation of the compost heap that is mankind - it's just people being shit being a part of the whole organism that is people.

    Based on that - which may or may not be related to your situation - i suggest you instead of MBTI/Socionics etcetera - look into info about 'narcissistic parents' and behavior seen in parents with personality disorders where they are emotionally stuck in stages you normally see 5-year olds in - if your mom is co-dependant for example she could have a seriously weak undeveloped personality that gives different results on MBTI-tests because she lacks a 'core' personality since she never developed one; and therefore would be drawn to your dad if he's a bit insane since she then replicates some relationship she had as a kid with someone of her parents. Or the other way around if your dad is the bitch in the relationship - http://www.lightshouse.org/ is a pretty good site.

    And i could just be projecting traits on you unrelated to your situation; but from my experience it's usually those variables that creates IEI/SLE in different magnitudes.

    Oh yea - and don't be a fucking martyr sticking around to that shit - that would just be self-destructive like mentioned above.
    OMG do you know me IRL or something??

    This is all super accurate, though I do a balance between extreme balls-out rebellion and crying in the bathroom. I think before up until age 18 I was a totally doormat martyr, but after about 7 years now of living on my own, and exposure to Se from an SLE and LSI, I assert myself a lot more.

    I also know a pretty fucked up SLE who's parents divorced when he was young and he blames it for some of his issues like his asshole-ness.

    And welcome to forum!

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    whoooa stifffromgoths, where the hell did you come from?





    also.

    a) wtf, india, very cool, what did you do there?

    b) and at the description of your dad.. I have only this:

    yeah toxic family relationship suck. hope you're able to get out of there soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    whoooa stifffromgoths, where the hell did you come from?
    Yes.

    a) wtf, india, very cool, what did you do there?
    I taught in a low income school.. that makes me sound more saintly than I am, I fucked around a lot and basically tried to tell the kids not to listen to authority. I don't know how many I convinced. All kinds of shit was going on in their communities, rampant alcoholism among the fathers, mothers setting fire to themselves.. I'll do a separate post about this if anyone is interested.

    b) and at the description of your dad.. I have only this:
    It makes me sad too, I think he's brave for leaving his own toxic family behind and being the first to immigrate. But...

    yeah toxic family relationship suck. hope you're able to get out of there soon.
    Thanks, I'm formulating an escape plan

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    I'm def interested in hearing more about your experience.

    also, good to hear that you're escaping soon.

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    Socionics-aside...

    Your father sounds like a nice suburban middle class man that has allowed himself to get intimidated by a more outgoing female. This is very common. The dad is a silent distant lazy basketcase and the mom is a pushy go-getter. They balance each other where the mom gets to be as pushy as possible and the dad as victimy as possible without both working on their issues. Since heterosexual people are often attracted to differences, being HETERO - they find this complementary but in the greater scheme of things it does seem to be headache-inducing.

    You're just pissed at them and it's very humane to be mad at your parents. However you will not build good relationships being flippant and abrasive, especially with your dad. You only get along with people by being empathetic to their point of view. It reminds me of that cliched Charmed episode: Your dad doesn't need to be told he's "easily intimidated" , he needs to be encouraged TO get over the victimyness. Your mom doesn't need to be told to stop being a busybody she needs productive outlets to explore her own introverted gifts. (and other people will start respecting her more as she's leaving them more alone)

    The key is to uplift and encourage other people (No matter what they do) - not criticize or demean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I'm def interested in hearing more about your experience.

    also, good to hear that you're escaping soon.
    K, I'm on it. Have to figure out some techie stuff first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post

    Your father sounds like a nice suburban middle class man that has allowed himself to get intimidated by a more outgoing female.
    I get the type of scenario you're describing, and it does apply at some level but I think the fact that they are first generation immigrants throws a curveball into this analysis. They have deeper issues than middle class suburbia, and also the old world idea of gender roles so that my mom always defers to my dad's authority on important issues, even when he might not be confident enough to make a decision. But he fronts anyway and does something that affects all of us.

    Your mom doesn't need to be told to stop being a busybody she needs productive outlets to explore her own introverted gifts. (and other people will start respecting her more as she's leaving them more alone)
    Yes, totally.

    The key is to uplift and encourage other people (No matter what they do) - not criticize or demean.
    My mom says stuff like this to me and it really pisses me off.. not because she's wrong but because instead of facing the problem she just says be positive!

    But on the other hand I agree that as Fe creatives it falls on us to lift the mood in a way that is meaningful to everyone.. though as introverts we tend to wait for someone else to start it and plus our Fe is very subdued. I myself didn't know its power until I lived with an SEI and observed her wield it around all ninja-like.

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    There is a difference between what toxic means and what toxic can be. Are your parents malicious and sadistic or is there simply some major cultural misunderstandings and communication issues.

    If it's the latter, it's not as toxic but it's harder to deal with as it's well meaning people who aren't able to deal with each others. Relations of malice should be avoided and ended, but relations where well meaning individuals screw each other up, that's a harder situation to figure out exactly what to do.

    If it's the latter, as that's what it seems to be, it's time to not live at home and be independent. Communication issues and cultural misunderstandings are going to be there, but it doesn't mean that there can't be some familial connection, however close interaction will produce a lot of unnecessary stress.

    I can't tell you what kinda of relations is there, since it's hard to tell these minimal descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stifffromgoths View Post
    I'm just gonna jump in and pull shit from my ass here without an introduction since i planned to use this account to ask a question about another topic that never happened.

    But since you're IEI - and i'm SLE - i've noticed that both types sometimes originates from the same kind of dynamics in the family, where some parent fails to live up to the subconscious expectations someone has as a child of what their parents are supposed to deliver; and basically IEI becomes IEI by handling the situation by submitting to the people around him/her: putting them infront of themselves - and SLE becomes SLE by revolting against the parent/parents: and therefore being the same since they adapted to the same kind of conditions(of sorts, atleast on some symbolic subconscious level) but simply took different paths that gives them different information priorities but 'see the same world'.

    One develops observational skills on the enviroment - the other just 'zones out' creating an internal world that later becomes what this community calls or . This being something that happens early in life that makes SLE awkward as fuck when getting close to people and (can make) IEIs depressed/suicidal/substance abusers since they gave up and accepted they were defeated were early on that makes them adapt to others as a way of dealing with them instead of confronting them or escapism a basic trait (which is self defeating and therefore murders their ego; which leads to subconscious self-hatred in some cases).

    Where this sort of conditions are actually a part of the equation of the compost heap that is mankind - it's just people being shit being a part of the whole organism that is people.

    Based on that - which may or may not be related to your situation - i suggest you instead of MBTI/Socionics etcetera - look into info about 'narcissistic parents' and behavior seen in parents with personality disorders where they are emotionally stuck in stages you normally see 5-year olds in - if your mom is co-dependant for example she could have a seriously weak undeveloped personality that gives different results on MBTI-tests because she lacks a 'core' personality since she never developed one; and therefore would be drawn to your dad if he's a bit insane since she then replicates some relationship she had as a kid with someone of her parents. Or the other way around if your dad is the bitch in the relationship - http://www.lightshouse.org/ is a pretty good site.

    And i could just be projecting traits on you unrelated to your situation; but from my experience it's usually those variables that creates IEI/SLE in different magnitudes.

    Oh yea - and don't be a fucking martyr sticking around to that shit - that would just be self-destructive like mentioned above.
    lol lol. good post! hmm i'm guessing conflict relations or as above...just generally unhealthy relations. my sister is an eie, dad an sli, mum an lse - my family life is hell - and i can't say my sister is any better than the rest. all i can advise is get the fuck out and be happy elsewhere, that's what works for me, i see my fam about 2 - 3 times a year, and it's fine in small doses. if you feel as though your opinion is never taken on board (and it's a damn good one or right on the mark) then i'd definitely say that's conflicting quadras; most likely conflict; do you feel continual angst, irritation, anger, feeling unappreciated? or a feeling of worthlessness and depression if you have lower self esteem? these have both marked my relationship with my mum who is my conflictor, an lse. ...i guess the worst element is the realization that their rejection of you is permanent no matter what you do. Acceptance, space and not taking their anger etc as meaning their is something wrong with you has helped me a lot .

    oh and to refute this srg, i have always got mad, fought back, rebelled and will always, always call people out on their shit, my sle friend often calls me 'joan of arc' so fuck the fluffy iei stereotype! trying to heal cruelty, unfairness and disrespect with kindness and softness is banging your head against a brick wall and only a mark of low self esteem, not an inborn iei trait - but whatever your coping methods, toxic family relationships, and opposing quadra relations are incredibly challenging and painful
    Last edited by dinki; 07-08-2013 at 01:07 PM.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stifffromgoths View Post
    I'm just gonna jump in and pull shit from my ass here without an introduction since i planned to use this account to ask a question about another topic that never happened.
    You should stick around and post more; we could use an SLE. Call it socionics affirmative action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    There is a difference between what toxic means and what toxic can be. Are your parents malicious and sadistic or is there simply some major cultural misunderstandings and communication issues.

    If it's the latter, it's not as toxic but it's harder to deal with as it's well meaning people who aren't able to deal with each others. Relations of malice should be avoided and ended, but relations where well meaning individuals screw each other up, that's a harder situation to figure out exactly what to do.

    If it's the latter, as that's what it seems to be, it's time to not live at home and be independent. Communication issues and cultural misunderstandings are going to be there, but it doesn't mean that there can't be some familial connection, however close interaction will produce a lot of unnecessary stress.

    I can't tell you what kinda of relations is there, since it's hard to tell these minimal descriptions.
    They're not malicious or sadistic, they love me a lot, which is what makes it worse, in a way, or at least harder for me to deal with when things go sour. According to the website from stifffromgoths, they may be slightly immature or narcissistic..

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    lol lol. good post! hmm i'm guessing conflict relations or as above...just generally unhealthy relations. my sister is an eie, dad an sli, mum an lse - my family life is hell - and i can't say my sister is any better than the rest. all i can advise is get the fuck out and be happy elsewhere, that's what works for me, i see my fam about 2 - 3 times a year, and it's fine in small doses. if you feel as though your opinion is never taken on board (and it's a damn good one or right on the mark) then i'd definitely say that's conflicting quadras; most likely conflict; do you feel continual angst, irritation, anger, feeling unappreciated? or a feeling of worthlessness and depression if you have lower self esteem? these have both marked my relationship with my mum who is my conflictor, an lse. ...i guess the worst element is the realization that their rejection of you is permanent no matter what you do. Acceptance, space and not taking their anger etc as meaning their is something wrong with you has helped me a lot .

    oh and to refute this srg, i have always got mad, fought back, rebelled and will always, always call people out on their shit, my sle friend often calls me 'joan of arc' so fuck the fluffy iei stereotype! trying to heal cruelty, unfairness and disrespect with kindness and softness is banging your head against a brick wall and only a mark of low self esteem, not an inborn iei trait - but whatever your coping methods, toxic family relationships, and opposing quadra relations are incredibly challenging and painful
    I'm happy to hear that you don't take any shit, I hate that stereotype about IEIs too.

    I've settled on a type for my mom, it's definitely LSE, and you're totally right about this opposing quadra pain. Though it's kinda funny to read the "what you can't expect" section of LSE description, bc that's exactly what I expect from my mom. In turn, she expects me to keep things tidy and be punctual, which is exactly what you shouldn't expect from IEI. Actually after reading through the LSE types, I'm feeling more resolved to respect my mom for what she's good at and foreseeing where we will have an argument and just sidestepping it, instead of both of us trying to make the other "understand."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    You should stick around and post more; we could use an SLE. Call it socionics affirmative action.
    For reals, where did stifffromgoths disappear to

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    In other news, I relate to opposite quadra families. My parents are both Gamma, which can make it hard, and I probably grew up a bit emotionally stunted and it's taken me years since moving out to really start opening up. I still haven't completely, but I'm working on it! Apparently I don't really show excitement? I was just informed of this, but I think I get excited about ridiculous things all the time!

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    Typology is not going to explain why your family is broken.

    A better question is, why would you knowingly place yourself in an environment as toxic as you describe? Was there some unfortunate circumstance that necessitated your return home? Can you not live independently, for whatever reason?

    I don't know what India is like, I've never been there and I'm not familiar with it's culture or customs. If psychotherapy is an option, that's honestly your best bet. Trying to diagnose this yourself and play armchair psychologist will only frustrate and confuse you. As well, you're as much a part of the equation as your parents, meaning you're biased. Situations like these require the frame of mind only an impartial observer can have when rendering an analysis on your family dynamic.

    Looking to Socionics is not a constructive way to solve the problem for three reasons:

    1. Socionics is not (yet) a scientifically valid concept in Western mainstream psychology. It's merely the conjecture of a few old, dead white guys. It has no clinical utility, all it is is an attempt at describing how the human brain processes information.
    2. Even if Socionics were a viable theory of interpersonal relations, it has not been certified as an evaluation instrument for diagnosing mental pathology or even classifying it.
    3. Finally, it is impossible to devise clinical or therapeutic treatments for mental disorders, disease, and behavioral problems from Socionics. It makes no predictions regarding these aspects of cognitive and behavioral psychology.

    Good luck, I don't know what else I can say here.
    Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 07-08-2013 at 09:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    They're not malicious or sadistic, they love me a lot, which is what makes it worse, in a way, or at least harder for me to deal with when things go sour. According to the website from stifffromgoths, they may be slightly immature or narcissistic..
    I've seen the website and it's pretty terrible.

    I'm not going to give you a clinical diagnosis of your parents but it's important to identify if they're abusive or not, abuse is fairly easy to identify.

    Do they seek to harm you or make you feel worthless in order to control you, even in little things which are minor.

    http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

    This is a guide for domestic abuse but the pattern can form for parents imo as well. Abusive individuals are also often abusive to their children. The key to abusive individuals is their malicious and deliberate creation of situations in which they can assert control and get "what they want".

    Hopefully your parents aren't abusive and what you have with them is simply a cultural and communication issue, which is imo common for many individuals, esp 1st gen immigrants from very different backgrounds(which is what it seems like).

    If there is anything you can do for yourself in this situation such as get some distance, it'll be better for your psychological health. Unfortunately whatever cultural and communication issues that exists are likely unsolvable, what is left is how to be decent to each other without creating a total nightmare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Typology is not going to explain why your family is broken.

    A better question is, why would you knowingly place yourself in an environment as toxic as you describe? Was there some unfortunate circumstance that necessitated your return home? Can you not live independently, for whatever reason?

    I don't know what India is like, I've never been there and I'm not familiar with it's culture or customs. If psychotherapy is an option, that's honestly your best bet. Trying to diagnose this yourself and play armchair psychologist will only frustrate and confuse you. As well, you're as much a part of the equation as your parents, meaning you're biased. Situations like these require the frame of mind only an impartial observer can have when rendering an analysis on your family dynamic.

    Looking to Socionics is not a constructive way to solve the problem for three reasons:

    1. Socionics is not (yet) a scientifically valid concept in Western mainstream psychology. It's merely the conjecture of a few old, dead white guys. It has no clinical utility, all it is is an attempt at describing how the human brain processes information.
    2. Even if Socionics were a viable theory of interpersonal relations, it has not been certified as an evaluation instrument for diagnosing mental pathology or even classifying it.
    3. Finally, it is impossible to devise clinical or therapeutic treatments for mental disorders, disease, and behavioral problems from Socionics. It makes no predictions regarding these aspects of cognitive and behavioral psychology.

    Good luck, I don't know what else I can say here.
    Good post . I agree for the most part, but do not agree that it cannotnhelp with your problems partially. Ultimately it helps you to accept that something is and always will be broken, and i have tried to fix things with socionics too in numerous ways, but ultimately you cannot fix your conflicting relationships without sacrificing yourself; it can help partially by helping you to accept this and invest your energies in more worthwhile places.
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    I'm happy to hear that you don't take any shit, I hate that stereotype about IEIs too.

    I've settled on a type for my mom, it's definitely LSE, and you're totally right about this opposing quadra pain. Though it's kinda funny to read the "what you can't expect" section of LSE description, bc that's exactly what I expect from my mom. In turn, she expects me to keep things tidy and be punctual, which is exactly what you shouldn't expect from IEI. Actually after reading through the LSE types, I'm feeling more resolved to respect my mom for what she's good at and foreseeing where we will have an argument and just sidestepping it, instead of both of us trying to make the other "understand."
    Yeah, so relate. Also tried to heal things with side stepping and understanding as well...but honestly I don't think you can really change yourself at the core, and would strongly advise to give up trying to positively reform these relationships - you're literally trying to twist yourself into the square peg for a square hole when that's really not how you're shaped; it will just damage you more. I know you won't listen though IEI strongheadedness and hopefulness . But they aren't worth it and you are; space, acceptance, investing your energies in other positive places...the best anti-dotes. I find a good relationship is possible but only with severe limited contact ; if i see my parents like two-three times a year for a day or so, it's nice to bearable...i just think a close relationship causes too much grief! Good luck with it, whatever you pick .
    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Yeah, speaking from experience, psychological issues can wreck what could have been decent relationships socionically. I was raised by an LSE and an ESE, and I have serious problems with both (and they have serious problems with each other).
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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