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Thread: Biased? Can't be objective? Embrace it!

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    Cool Biased? Can't be objective? Embrace it!

    1. Choose one of the tests:

    http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_turbo.html

    4 questions

    Instructions:

    * Answer according to what you wanna look like (look-a-like). Count points if it is a difficult question to answer.

    2a. You are the type opposing your result in this table (Look-a-like relations):

    ENTp - ESTp
    ISFp - INFp
    ESFj - ESTj
    INTj - INFj
    ENFj - ENTj
    ISTj - ISFj
    ESFp - ENFp
    INTp - ISTp


    http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_turbo_xl.html

    54 questions

    Instructions:

    * Answer according to what you wanna look like (look-a-like)

    * Utilize the unsure button when you are unsure due to a difficult question to answer philosophically, if you get too many Xs then my method wont work for you on this test.

    2b. You are the type opposing your result in this table (Look-a-like relations):

    ENTp - ESTp
    ISFp - INFp
    ESFj - ESTj
    INTj - INFj
    ENFj - ENTj
    ISTj - ISFj
    ESFp - ENFp
    INTp - ISTp

    My answers:





    My result:


    Why this method works:
    "Business relations (also known as look-alike relations) are similar to identity and kindred in that partners have half their functions in common — in this case, all the even-numbered ones ("Producing functions 'come second' and are even-numbered: 2, 4, 6, and 8")."
    Sources:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Business
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p..._and_producing

    Which means that what we want to look like is a product of an incomplete (half) perception of reality. The other half is what we actually are but can't perceive, (and in an "normal" individual what we want to look like):



    "Aushra Augusta suggested that accepting functions focus on obtaining a picture of reality, and producing functions create some sort of 'new' product that is molded to that cross-cut of reality obtained by the accepting function."
    Source:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p..._and_producing Content 2

    This means that my method lets you produces a result that is going to when calculated with my algorithm (Look-a-like relations) give you your actual type.

    Recommended descriptions/portraits:

    ENTp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ISFp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ESFj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    INTj
    http://personalitycafe.com/blogs/lan...written-12277/

    ENFj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ISTj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ESTp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    INFp
    http://personalitycafe.com/infp-arti...r-written.html

    ESFp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    INTp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ENTj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ISFj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html

    ESTj
    http://personalitycafe.com/logical-s...r-written-112/
    INFj
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ENFp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html
    ISTp
    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html

    Edit:
    Foundation for this thread:
    http://www.socionics.com/forums/show...5760#post25760
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-26-2013 at 01:31 AM.

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    If those tests have not changed from back when I took them (it's been some years, admittedly), then they are not useful for typing in socionics. For that matter, most socionics tests are not overly useful. (Socioniko.net had one that I would have loved to try out, but it is long closed down.)
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    If those tests have not changed from back when I took them (it's been some years, admittedly), then they are not useful for typing in socionics. For that matter, most socionics tests are not overly useful. (Socioniko.net had one that I would have loved to try out, but it is long closed down.)
    You again.. I hope you reverse engineered both tests and proved them to be subjective, if not...
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Forgot an comma

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    first one I got

    If your type is INFj - "The Empath"
    In a relationship you seek to reveal your great affection and empathy for your partner. You like to observe ethical conduct and aspire to create an ideal relationship between people. You could often be overanxious about your health for seemingly no apparent reason. You are fascinated by people who can demonstrate resourcefulness and efficiency.

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    I have this weird purple dot on my arm that I observed for the first time today...it's keeping me on edge...my dual cousin and SEXINESS said to watch and make sure it goes away within a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    first one I got

    If your type is INFj - "The Empath"
    In a relationship you seek to reveal your great affection and empathy for your partner. You like to observe ethical conduct and aspire to create an ideal relationship between people. You could often be overanxious about your health for seemingly no apparent reason. You are fascinated by people who can demonstrate resourcefulness and efficiency.
    ISFj then

    Edit: If you followed my instructions
    Edit: *yawn* sleep deprivition, INTj if you scored INFj, yes.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Obvious reasons(intimidating post count) and sleep deprivition

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    1. Choose a test
    so what, now you think someone who scores INFj on the first test is really an INTj? how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    ISFj then

    Edit: If you followed my instructions
    I didn't follow your instructions because I can't understand them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    so what, now you think someone who scores INFj on the first test is really an INTj? how?
    If you follow the instruction that is the case, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I didn't follow your instructions because I can't understand them.
    So simple, so simple instructions.

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    I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious why people's self-image is as their look-a-like? It's a curious observation.

    scribbles in the dark

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious why people's self-image is as their look-a-like? It's a curious observation.
    Jung Psychological Types, MBTI and Socionics. 3 is the magic number. 4 is my lucky number.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 06:31 AM. Reason: goddamn sleep deprivition (forgot dot)

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    Second set was again INFj...what's the point of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    So simple, so simple instructions.
    Maybe there's a language barrier...so my self image is an INTj? I'm not like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Maybe there's a language barrier...so my self image is an INTj? I'm not like them.
    You just said you diden't follow the instruction I have no idea "how" you answered the questions in the test then.

    Edit: Probably diden't embrace your bias...

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Edit: *yawn* sleep deprivition
    cohesion is often lost with sleep; you should get some sleep

    Thank you for the help

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    You just said you diden't follow the instruction I have no idea "how" you answered the questions in the test then.

    Edit: Probably diden't embrace your bias...
    There are two tests, both have the same kind of questions which assesses one's general nature; I'm a type of person who cares and values human relationships, ethics and bonds; so, in this generality of who I am, how can you assess me to be an analyst, an INTj?

    you're saying essentially that the infj is really an intj? they are so different from one another; one is a merry dichotomy and the other, me, very serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    There are two tests, both have the same kind of questions which assesses one's general nature; I'm a type of person who cares and values human relationships, ethics and bonds; so, in this generality of who I am, how can you assess me to be an analyst, an INTj?

    you're saying essentially that the infj is really an intj? they are so different from one another; one is a merry dichotomy and the other, me, very serious.
    From the top of my head... gender, upbringing, mental health (slightly kidding) etc...

    Edit: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...pe-development

    Maybe you have a genius awareness

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    From the top of my head... gender, upbringing, mental health (slightly kidding) etc...

    Edit: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...pe-development

    Maybe you have a genius awareness
    I very much doubt that what you're trying to assess here has any accuracy. One test, perhaps the first one, is good enough to show someone's type, if the person is honest and objective, that means that they get their mom to help them answer the test

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    You again..
    Yes, me. This is a public discussion board. People tend to engage each other in discussion here, whether they agree or disagree with the person they are responding to.

    I hope you reverse engineered both tests and proved them to be subjective, if not...
    The first test is dichotomous, which is far less useful than typing by socionics IEs. The second test works off of traits that do not always correspond to a given dichotomy or IM element. If the source material is bad, then it is bad. And what does subjectiveness have to do with anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Yes, me. This is a public discussion board. People tend to engage each other in discussion here, whether they agree or disagree with the person they are responding to.
    You know exactly what I meant.

    Edit: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...pe-development

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene AStraelis View Post
    The first test is dichotomous, which is far less useful than typing by socionics IEs. The second test works off of traits that do not always correspond to a given dichotomy or IM element. If the source material is bad, then it is bad. And what does subjectiveness have to do with anything?
    1. Usefulness is subjective.
    2. What you believe to correspond is subjective. If you can prove that it doesn't correspond post some sources, I can't take you for your word anymore.
    3. It is not bad til you link the sources which supposedly "don't" correspond.
    4. Do you understand the concept subjective now?
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 07:40 AM. Reason: adequacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    From the top of my head... gender, upbringing, mental health (slightly kidding) etc...

    Edit: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...pe-development

    Maybe you have a genius awareness
    so, self image is different from one's actual type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    so, self image is different from one's actual type?
    You are you Maritsa... your self image is different from YOUR type in that case.

    Edit: You are you Maritsa... YOUR self image is different from your type in tat case.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 07:18 AM. Reason: sleep deprivition

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    You are you Maritsa... your self image is different from YOUR type in that case.
    ok, I don't think my self image, at least consciously is an INTj.

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    Look at the traits and how can one have the self image of something they are not?

    There are people that:

    Feeler type
    Are interested in people and their feelings • Easily pass own moods onto others • Pay great attention to love and passion • Evaluate things by ethics and good or bad • Are often touchy or use emotional manipulation • Often pay compliments to please people
    There are people that:

    Thinker type:
    Are interested in systems and structures • Subject everything to a logical analysis • Are normally relatively cold and unemotional • Evaluate things by intellect and true or false • Are not very keen on talking about feelings • Do not like to clear up arguments or quarrels

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ok, I don't think my self image, at least consciously is an INTj.
    I don't care trust me

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Look at the traits and how can one have the self image of something they are not?

    There are people that:

    Feeler type
    Are interested in people and their feelings • Easily pass own moods onto others • Pay great attention to love and passion • Evaluate things by ethics and good or bad • Are often touchy or use emotional manipulation • Often pay compliments to please people
    There are people that:

    Thinker type:
    Are interested in systems and structures • Subject everything to a logical analysis • Are normally relatively cold and unemotional • Evaluate things by intellect and true or false • Are not very keen on talking about feelings • Do not like to clear up arguments or quarrels
    Sources if you want my help please.

    Edit: Sources if you want my help, thank you.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 07:21 AM. Reason: sleep deprivition is a funny thing huh

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    I don't care trust me
    I do trust you. The source is from the choice in your first test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I do trust you. The source is from the choice in your first test.
    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    From the top of my head... gender, upbringing, mental health (slightly kidding) etc...

    Edit: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...pe-development

    Maybe you have a genius awareness
    Now. Would you be kind and leave room for others? You are hijacking the thread. You can PM me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    You know exactly what I meant.
    Not really, but I am open to hearing your explanation and would prefer to hear it rather than voice assumptions.

    1. Usefulness is subjective.
    Sometimes.

    2. What you believe to correspond is subjective. If you can prove that it doesn't correspond post some sources, I can't take you for your word anymore.
    3. It is not bad til you link the sources which supposedly "don't" correspond.
    You aren't posting sources here either, just your opinion of what works. Why demand of me what you aren't doing yourself?

    Dichotomies are not hard and fast rules. There are Rationals who seem more Irrational at first glance. (Rick DeLong has written on this, but I don't recall where exactly.) I am one of them. I resisted being typed Rational for months because I was stuck on dichotomies and temperament descriptions that told me I was Irrational rather than Rational. I didn't start considering Fi-base (EII at the time) until Rick himself put it forward during a type consultation. There are also introverted Extratims and extroverted Introtims, which Rick has written about on his blog. Getting caught up in the dichotomies at the expense of IM elements is a bad practice and can lead to mistypes. But even if you want to argue that they are useful in some circumstances, take Rick's description of the dichotomies and compare them to that test. Furthermore, certain questions on that XL questionnaire are overly simplistic; the true answers can be highly context-dependent. I can go in-depth if necessary, but I don't really feel like it at this moment. Exploring when it does or does not apply is far more constructive than simply saying "I do/don't do this" and assigning it to one side of a scale.

    By the way, your method gives me INTx, which is incredibly inaccurate when you look at the IEs involved. I am neither Ti base nor Ni base.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Not really, but I am open to hearing your explanation and would prefer to hear it rather than voice assumptions.
    The essence of our discussions are not relevant to the threads we are discussing in. The discussions we have lead nowhere of relevance to the subject.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Sometimes.
    Perceived usefulness is subjective when it is done by a human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    You aren't posting sources here either, just your opinion of what works. Why demand of me what you aren't doing yourself?
    Source for the method is in the OP now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Dichotomies are not hard and fast rules. There are Rationals who seem more Irrational at first glance.
    DCNH subtypes Creative subtype looks like that.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-(translation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    (Rick DeLong has written on this, but I don't recall where exactly.) I am one of them. I resisted being typed Rational for months because I was stuck on dichotomies and temperament descriptions that told me I was Irrational rather than Rational. I didn't start considering Fi-base (EII at the time) until Rick himself put it forward during a type consultation. There are also introverted Extratims and extroverted Introtims, which Rick has written about on his blog.
    DCNH subtypes Creative subtype yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Getting caught up in the dichotomies at the expense of IM elements is a bad practice and can lead to mistypes. But even if you want to argue that they are useful in some circumstances, take Rick's description of the dichotomies and compare them to that test.
    I can probably help you with checking the correlation with his ideas later, it is work I know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Furthermore, certain questions on that XL questionnaire are overly simplistic; the true answers can be highly context-dependent. I can go in-depth if necessary, but I don't really feel like it at this moment. Exploring when it does or does not apply is far more constructive than simply saying "I do/don't do this" and assigning it to one side of a scale.
    Please follow the instructions i mentioned this already, read them again if you need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    By the way, your method gives me INTx, which is incredibly inaccurate when you look at the IEs involved. I am neither Ti base nor Ni base.
    If you tested INTx that means you actually are IXXx so far. If you tested IXXx you diden't follow my instructions (abuse of unsure button).

    Now please leave room for others to reply in the thread before it becomes to much of a read. The discussion is over please don't start a new one just for the sake of discussing, you can do that in another thread or you can PM me.

    Edit: You need to try the 4 question test if you are testing INTx on the 54 question one.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 08:05 AM. Reason: addition is easy, easier with a well rested mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    The essence of our discussions are not relevant to the threads we are discussing in. The discussions we have lead nowhere of relevance to the subject.





    Perceived usefulness is subjective when it is done by a human.



    Source for the method is in the OP now.



    DCNH subtypes Creative subtype looks like that.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-(translation)



    DCNH subtypes Creative subtype yet again.



    I can probably help you with checking the correlation with his ideas later, it is work I know...



    Please follow the instructions i mentioned this already, read them again if you need to.



    If you tested INTx that means you actually are IXXx so far. If you tested IXXx you diden't follow my instructions (abuse of unsure button).

    Now please leave room for others to reply in the thread before it becomes to much of a read. The discussion is over please don't start a new one just for the sake of discussing, you can do that in another thread or you can PM me.
    Honestly, I don't value your opinion enough or think highly enough of your understanding (or your general attitude) to take the trouble of continuing this conversation elsewhere. Nor have you answered my objections in a relevant or satisfactory manner. I'll just toss this in the "irreconcilable opinions" bin and move on.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Honestly, I don't value your opinion enough or think highly enough of your understanding (or your general attitude) to take the trouble of continuing this conversation elsewhere. Nor have you answered my objections in a relevant or satisfactory manner. I'll just toss this in the "irreconcilable opinions" bin and move on.
    you don't have to be mean; a lot of "you" "you" "you" is just criticism

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    you don't have to be mean.
    I called him no names nor cast any aspersions on his moral character or intelligence. I merely chose not to soften my expression of my opinion toward him.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I called him no names nor cast any aspersions on his moral character or intelligence. I merely chose not to soften my expression of my opinion toward him.
    and you can't keep that to yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    and you can't keep that to yourself?
    Why should I? I have no incentive to preserve his feelings in that matter. And we should probably take this elsewhere before he gets pissy, that is if you care enough about the discussion to do so.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Why should I? I have no incentive to preserve his feelings in that matter. And we should probably take this elsewhere before he gets pissy, that is if you care enough about the discussion to do so.
    He simply made a theory...like socionics is a theory...that utilizing two tests he can determine the self image of one's type; if that doesn't agree with your assessment of yourself, why not just say why it doesn't or ask for a clarification about the possibility of how that works instead of just making a hard and fast rule about what socionics is which you interpret to be based on IE and then close the door on him theory/idea?

    I see the above as being both aggressive and Ne devaluing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He simply made a theory...like socionics is a theory...that utilizing two tests he can determine the self image of one's type; if that doesn't agree with your assessment of yourself, why not just say why it doesn't or ask for a clarification about the possibility of how that works instead of just making a hard and fast rule about what socionics is which you interpret to be based on IE and then close the door on him theory/idea?
    Whether his reasoning is sound or not (which I don't consider it to be), it's rather pointless if he's applying it to a fairly shitty typing tool. I explained why it's a shitty typing tool. I also told him that his method did not work and why.

    I see the above as being both aggressive and Ne devaluing.
    I once told you I didn't think enough of your socionics understanding to take you seriously in matters like these. That still stands.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Honestly, I don't value your opinion enough or think highly enough of your understanding (or your general attitude) to take the trouble of continuing this conversation elsewhere.
    I don't care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Nor have you answered my objections in a relevant or satisfactory manner. I'll just toss this in the "irreconcilable opinions" bin and move on.
    1. Relevance:

    "In information science and information retrieval, relevance denotes how well a retrieved document or set of documents meets the information need of the user." in other words you need more information to take make a system like mine. I don't have to teach to how to make this system, it is difficult though.

    source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevan...ion_retrieval)

    2. Satisfactory = Contentment
    "Contentment is the acknowledgement and satisfaction of reaching capacity. The level of capacity reached may be sought after, expected, desired, or simply predetermined as the level in which provides contentment."
    it is not expected of you to feel this way for now self explanatory reasons see point 1.

    sources:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contentment

    Please do leave room.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 08:56 AM. Reason: forgot source for point 1

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    @negern I did mention taking this elsewhere to her. I'm more than happy to ask the mods for a thread split for the divergent discussion, if that's what you'd prefer.

    Edit: We posted this at the same time. I'll grab a mod.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Whether his reasoning is sound or not (which I don't consider it to be), it's rather pointless if he's applying it to a fairly shitty typing tool. I explained why it's a shitty typing tool. I also told him that his method did not work and why.
    I took both the tests; the method seems to be fine, for me, so if one person is good than because it's not good for you it won't be good for others? I type by traits all the time, it comes out to be fine. Again, it's YOUR way or the highway, it seems like.

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    To humour you:

    First test: ISTp -> INTp
    Second test: XNTp -> XSTp

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