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Thread: "Normal" type development

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    Cool "Normal" type development

    According to Jung one can develop functions. And according to MBTI and Socionics you can have a mental capacity above/at/under your physical age.

    Jung:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics content 2

    MBTI:
    http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-p...evelopment.asp

    Socionics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics content 4

    This is a small system/synthesis of 8 years of private research

    "Normal" function development (specific ordering of types from Chapter 10 Psychological Types):

    ESTJ/ESTj:
    Thinking - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    ENTJ/ENTj
    Thinking - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    ESFJ/ESFj
    Thinking - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    ENFJ/ENFj
    Thinking - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    ESTP/ESTp
    Thinking - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    ESFP/ESFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    ENTP/ENTp
    Thinking - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    ENFP/ENFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    ISTP/ISTj
    Thinking - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    INTP/INTj
    Thinking - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    ISFP/ISFj
    Thinking - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    INFP/INFj
    Thinking - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    ISTJ/ISTp
    Thinking - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    ISFJ/ISFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    Intuition - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    INTJ/INTp
    Thinking - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Feeling - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X
    INFJ/INFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X

    * X represents til the end, not physical death but spiritual death
    *** hypothesis 1: collective consciousness, type and death are related - more on that later maybe. ***
    *** hypothesis 2: age 6-20 are the golden years for now after reading a most likely self explanatory reason ***
    *** hypothesis 3: psychosis is the prolonged (what is it 6 months for schizophrenia diagnosis?) or delayed awareness of tertiary(3rd) and inferior(4th) psychological function (Jung model) ***

    Why types correlate:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics content 4
    http://www.socionics.com/articles/howto.htm

    Which means that functions correlate, how that works:
    Mental/Vital functions, Accepting/Producing functions, Inert/Contact, Valued/Unvalued or subdued functions, Evaluatory/Situational functions, Bold/Cautious functions, Conscious/Subconscious functions and Weak/Strong functions.

    Jung model:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics content 2

    Socionics model:
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...d_and_cautious

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-of-the-Psyche

    http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/model_a/

    http://identityandtype.wordpress.com.../09/socionics/

    MBTI model:
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16Types/16Types.cfm

    Function correlation (descriptions):
    Jung:
    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm
    Socionics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics content 3
    MBTI:
    http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-p...-attitudes.asp

    Merry Christmas!

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    Um, what is this? And, what is it's purpose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Um, what is this? And, what is it's purpose?
    do whatever you want with it

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    do whatever you want with it
    Well, if I don't know what it is and why you're providing it then what can i do with it? it's like you handing me an odd object for which I have no standard memory recall of use and you expect me to hold on to it. Is it for a later time?

    I'd tell you what I would do with an object I didn't know of, I'd put it on the shelf in the closet and hope that the subject comes up in the future, but for immediate use, I don't know what to do with it.

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    I would like to understand your analysis in terms of a real human being please...for myself, for instance you write:

    INFJ/INFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X


    So according to the above, my "thinking" function develops at the age of 30-49; however, I thought it developed earlier than that...but even though it develops in that age it's only conscious at age 6? how can that be?

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    How do you see a Se dominant's loss of touch with Ni as being psychosis? Psychosis seems to be a Ni/Ti process, and flattening of affect/anhedonia a Pi trait. (In your sauce there, Jung's description of Pi dominance as leading to inexpressiveness and a fruitless existence by his society's standards rings as the negative symptoms of the schizophrenic spectrum.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So according to the above, my "thinking" function develops at the age of 30-49; however, I thought it developed earlier than that...but even though it develops in that age it's only conscious at age 6? how can that be?
    Have you ever seen people parading their ability in some function in a way that shows they use it extremely simplistically? I imagine the dunning-krueger effect where someone's delusions of competence lead them to be loudly and self-confidently ignorant and short-sighted. I suspect this is the result of conscious but undeveloped function usage.

    Just a thought though. Let's see what negern has to say

    Disclaimer: if you buy into the system. I'm not offering assent or dissent here.

    scribbles in the dark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Well, if I don't know what it is and why you're providing it then what can i do with it? it's like you handing me an odd object for which I have no standard memory recall of use and you expect me to hold on to it. Is it for a later time?

    I'd tell you what I would do with an object I didn't know of, I'd put it on the shelf in the closet and hope that the subject comes up in the future, but for immediate use, I don't know what to do with it.
    Trust me you don't want to know if you don't get it. Not for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I would like to understand your analysis in terms of a real human being please...for myself, for instance you write:

    INFJ/INFp
    Thinking - developes from age 30-49 is conscious from age 6-20
    Feeling - developes from age 8-20 is conscious from age 0-X
    Sensing - developes from age 50-X is conscious from age 6-20
    Intuition - developes from age 0-7 is conscious from age 0-X


    So according to the above, my "thinking" function develops at the age of 30-49; however, I thought it developed earlier than that...but even though it develops in that age it's only conscious at age 6? how can that be?
    This is in an "normal" individual according to theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    How do you see a Se dominant's loss of touch with Ni as being psychosis? Psychosis seems to be a Ni/Ti process, and flattening of affect/anhedonia a Pi trait. (In your sauce there, Jung's description of Pi dominance as leading to inexpressiveness and a fruitless existence by his society's standards rings as the negative symptoms of the schizophrenic spectrum.)
    Psychosis depend on type first of all, and secondly there are many different kinds of psychosis, the swedish schizophrenia article mentions it, I dont wanna peer through the whole english article right now but here it is:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

    Edit:
    Here is the swedish article, machine translate if you want to:
    "Paul Eugen Bleuler, som myntade termen, pratade faktiskt i stället om "schizofrenierna" (plural)"
    https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizofreni

    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post

    Have you ever seen people parading their ability in some function in a way that shows they use it extremely simplistically? I imagine the dunning-krueger effect where someone's delusions of competence lead them to be loudly and self-confidently ignorant and short-sighted. I suspect this is the result of conscious but undeveloped function usage.

    Just a thought though. Let's see what negern has to say

    Disclaimer: if you buy into the system. I'm not offering assent or dissent here.
    This is weak and subconscious force (Se) through awareness that probably shouldnt be there if the individual is outside of the age range 6-20 y.o

    Edit: I am sleep deprived I thought you asked me
    Edit: Oh I am that tired, you wanted my response
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Adequacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post


    Have you ever seen people parading their ability in some function in a way that shows they use it extremely simplistically?
    No. Honestly I have not. And by this, I hope you don't mean someone showing off how smart they are and you equating that to T function.


    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    I imagine the dunning-krueger effect where someone's delusions of competence lead them to be loudly and self-confidently ignorant and short-sighted. I suspect this is the result of conscious but undeveloped function usage.
    I don't think Socionics functions work by choice or effort; they are what you do, or rather what your brain does with the information and how it exchanges it; for example, in my case, Te is related to external dynamics, an interest in watching other's actions; I just don't do that, I would have never considered doing that had I not know Socionics or what Te mean; I just go around doing what would be considered my base functions mostly; and whether or not I will develop Te or become more conscious of it, I have yet to learn, I'm currently 34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Trust me you don't want to know if you don't get it. Not for now.



    This is in an "normal" individual according to theory.
    So, some function can become conscious before it starts to develop; perhaps the order in which you placed this made it confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So, some function can become conscious before it starts to develop; perhaps the order in which you placed this made it confusing.
    It is all Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    It is all Jung
    You're evasive.

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    OP: Please don't attempt to mix MBTI and Socionics like that. If you'd like to discuss type development in either system separately, complete with sources relevant to each specific system, that's fine and potentially quite interesting. Concerning Socionics, I've heard it put forth that it's difficult (if not impossible) to type someone before adulthood. I'm not entirely sure whether I agree with this myself.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    You're evasive.
    How is clearing things up by explaining the order evasive?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    OP: Please don't attempt to mix MBTI and Socionics like that. If you'd like to discuss type development in either system separately, complete with sources relevant to each specific system, that's fine and potentially quite interesting. Concerning Socionics, I've heard it put forth that it's difficult (if not impossible) to type someone before adulthood. I'm not entirely sure whether I agree with this myself.
    Attempt? I succeeded

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Attempt? I succeeded
    That remains to be seen. For one thing, you are assuming that the mental processes bearing a certain label in both systems are completely equal and interchangeable, which they are not.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    That remains to be seen. For one thing, you are assuming that the mental processes bearing a certain label in both systems are completely equal and interchangeable, which they are not.
    No man, just no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    No man, just no.
    "No" what? You are not assuming they are interchangeable, or you think I am incorrect in saying they are not?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    "No" what? You are not assuming they are interchangeable, or you think I am incorrect in saying they are not?
    I am not assuming they are, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    How is clearing things up by explaining the order evasive?
    :
    It's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    It is all Jung
    oh, interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    I am not assuming they are, no.
    Then why mention type and function correlations? Why list the types as ESTJ/ESTj, INFP/INFj, etc?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Then why mention type and function correlations? Why list the types as ESTJ/ESTj, INFP/INFj, etc?
    I am talking about:
    "Which means that functions correlate, how that works:
    Mental/Vital functions, Accepting/Producing functions, Inert/Contact, Valued/Unvalued or subdued functions, Evaluatory/Situational functions, Bold/Cautious functions, Conscious/Subconscious functions and Weak/Strong functions."

    What are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    I am talking about:
    "Which means that functions correlate, how that works:
    Mental/Vital functions, Accepting/Producing functions, Inert/Contact, Valued/Unvalued or subdued functions, Evaluatory/Situational functions, Bold/Cautious functions, Conscious/Subconscious functions and Weak/Strong functions."

    What are you talking about?
    Your citing of sources that talk about how to convert MBTI type to socionics type. Your listing of types as ESTJ/ESTj, INFP/INFj, which implies that you believe they're the exact same thing. Your listing Jung's functions, MBTI functions, and Socionics IE descriptions under the heading "function correlations".
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Your citing of sources that talk about how to convert MBTI type to socionics type. Your listing of types as ESTJ/ESTj, INFP/INFj, which implies that you believe they're the exact same thing. Your listing Jung's functions, MBTI functions, and Socionics IE descriptions under the heading "function correlations".
    The types correlate as explained with sources in the OP.

    The functions correlate as explained with sources in the OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    The types correlate as explained with sources in the OP.

    The functions correlate as explained with sources in the OP.
    You're not making much sense.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 06-24-2013 at 06:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    The types correlate as explained with sources in the OP.

    The functions correlate as explained with sources in the OP.
    And there is our disagreement, and much of my problem with your attempt to mix them.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Then why mention type and function correlations? Why list the types as ESTJ/ESTj, INFP/INFj, etc?
    sometimes, they correlate perfectly but not always

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    You're not making any sense.
    Neither do the sources make any sense for you then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    You're not making much sense.
    Nice edit, you need to read it all again probably

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    And there is our disagreement, and much of my problem with your attempt to mix them.
    Check the sources if you wanna get anywhere with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    sometimes, they correlate perfectly but not always
    They never correlate perfectly. Introverted types got a j/p switch (you heard this before I know). Check the sources!!

    Edit: I am talking about the types, the function correlation is a tidy bit more complicated.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Adequacy, sleep deprivition

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Neither do the sources make any sense for you then.



    Nice edit, you need to read it all again probably
    calm please........

    you need sleep...this won't go anywhere, you should continue in the morning..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    sometimes, they correlate perfectly but not always
    Some IM elements and functions come closer than others. Others are most definitely different. And then there is also the difference of type models between the systems. There's hardly enough similarity overall to justify a solid conversion formula.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Nice edit, you need to read it all again probably.
    I did. It's gibberish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    I did. It's gibberish.
    Sources from Socionics link:
    Information resources[edit]
    the16Types.info, English speaking Socionics community
    Socioniko.net, Multilingual Socionic Site
    Wikisocion.org
    Socionics.us, contains notes on Augustinaviciute's books
    Socionics.com
    Socionika.com, contains numerous articles from many authors
    Socionic.info, International Institute of Socionics
    Definitive-socionics.info
    [8]
    [9], School of System Socionics, English version
    Tests[edit]
    Socioniko.net, short test by Dmitri Lytov and Marianna Lytova
    socionics.us, by Rick DeLong
    Sociotype.com, by Ryan Valaas
    Socionics.com, by Sergei Ganin
    socionictest.net, 40-questions test
    zhilkin.com/socio, Reinin traits ↔ sociotype

    "gibberish"? bloody hell man, sod off *brtn*

    Edit: Source of the source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics

    Edit: special delivery for you, k4m I am showing that I am showing the sources.

    Edit: Yet again, the sources are the sources I used to make the system that is presented in the OP. The hypotheses I made come from my own understanding I never claimed it to be anything but a hypothesis.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 08:30 AM. Reason: adequacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    Sources from Socionics link:
    Information resources[edit]
    the16Types.info, English speaking Socionics community
    Socioniko.net, Multilingual Socionic Site
    Wikisocion.org
    Socionics.us, contains notes on Augustinaviciute's books
    Socionics.com
    Socionika.com, contains numerous articles from many authors
    Socionic.info, International Institute of Socionics
    Definitive-socionics.info
    [8]
    [9], School of System Socionics, English version
    Tests[edit]
    Socioniko.net, short test by Dmitri Lytov and Marianna Lytova
    socionics.us, by Rick DeLong
    Sociotype.com, by Ryan Valaas
    Socionics.com, by Sergei Ganin
    socionictest.net, 40-questions test
    zhilkin.com/socio, Reinin traits ↔ sociotype

    "gibberish"? bloody hell man, sod off *brtn*

    Edit: Source of the source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics
    your sources are so general as to be laughable.

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    those sources don't give any substance to your so-called 'private research' or hypotheses,

    furthermore, when you present 'findings' and want them taken seriously, it's first of all a good idea not to be evasive.

    Today, 08:56 PMMaritsa
    Um, what is this? And, what is it's purpose?
    do whatever you want with it
    Well, if I don't know what it is and why you're providing it then what can i do with it?
    Trust me you don't want to know if you don't get it. Not for now.
    For christ sake, YOU don't even seem to know nor get what you're presenting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    those sources don't give any substance to your so-called 'private research' or hypotheses,

    furthermore, when you present 'findings' and want them taken seriously, it's first of all a good idea not to be evasive.


    For christ sake, YOU don't even seem to know nor get what you're presenting.
    He/She is sleep deprived. I would say that causes irritability, inability to assess their information or accurately decipher the information they're asked for, misdirect anger, frustration...other things too, inability to concentrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    your sources are so general as to be laughable.
    There is nothing wrong with the sources. General is good, it is synonymous with public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    those sources don't give any substance to your so-called 'private research' or hypotheses,
    You want 8 years worth of sources? Are you crazy? I wrote that it is a small system/synthesis of what I have learned within that time frame, not that it is an synthesis of everything I learned.

    Edit: I never claimed to have sources for my own hypotheses, they are original hypotheses. Now, the system is sourced for so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    furthermore, when you present 'findings' and want them taken seriously, it's first of all a good idea not to be evasive.
    Evasive? Still? You need to understand the "facts" you use before you use them.
    Evasive means:

    in English

    Adjective

    1. evasive (comparative more evasive, superlative most evasive)
    Tending to avoid speaking openly or making revelations about oneself.
    2. Directed towards avoidance or escape; evasive action.

    Source:
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evasive

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    For christ sake, YOU don't even seem to know nor get what you're presenting.
    It is all layed out there for you guys I am not looking for profit. I made this system for fun, do what you want with it.

    I've answered pretty much the same question twice now so please leave room for other people to reply k4m.
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 08:23 AM. Reason: additions

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    Can't wait till i am 50 and my intuition finally starts to develop. At least at 30 my feeling starts to develop but's just a quantum of solace.

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    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 05:48 PM. Reason: i am this fucking sleep deprived

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    Cool bollocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsurdEnough View Post
    Hi negern. @Ryene Astraelis is correct, that the types aren't necessarily a direct correlation between MBTI & Socionics as was implied by the original post. For socionics, I'd suggest thinking of it as a different system completely, although the same/similar terminology and acronyms for the types are deceptively used. Although it seems you are somewhat aware of this, as you see they aren't "perfectly correlated".
    Would you be so kind and link the source that is backing you up on that claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsurdEnough View Post
    And don't worry about Kill4Me, as he is the latest troll it seems.
    k4m was probably trying to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsurdEnough View Post
    I take the timelines for development as being very general and suggestive. Why such a high range for each one? The age gap between 30 & 49 is very large and relative to maturity, imho. Surely someone who is more 'mature' or attains more life experiences would be able to develop faster, imho.
    It is not based of my own theory, it is MBTI and Socionics. The system is my creation, you know us LSE Inventors.

    Edit: I edited.. still diden't sleep
    Edit: It was a real bad edit aswell...
    Edit:
    Source on LSE inventor:
    "ILE and LSE make good inventors and innovators. ILI and LSI finalizers and explotationists."^
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ng-and-Renewal
    Last edited by griggerplease; 06-24-2013 at 08:25 PM. Reason: wth I cant use forums without sleep what is going on? *Researching*

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