the F word

[ashlesha]

feminism.

its been coming up a lot lately around here. is it good? is it bad? are equal rights good but only if you don't call it feminism? are men's rights and women's rights inherently opposed? (okay maybe these questions are loaded but you can come up with your own, too.)

it might be best for my blood pressure to avoid this thread after making it but i feel like it should be made right now cuz it seems to be on everybodys minds. we'll see. (who am i kidding.)

go forth and have rational and reasonable discussions. haha.

[Scapegrace]

There are equal rights and then there is coddling. Feminism has no place in the Westen world anymore. It makes me sick to see people whining about how women don't get paid as much as men (which is easily explained and has nothing to do with sexism), when girls in Pakastan are being killed by their own brothers because somebody raped them.

[some chair]

"Feminist" to me seems to be another cult like "Democrat" or "Republican", especially reading some of the myopic, fanatical bullshit I've seen in blogs like "gender equality is feminism in disguise". Jesus.

Of course, I think people can hold feminist ideas. Doing so doesn't make you a lunatic, I've just seen nutjobs on parade under the banner, much like with any other banner.

EDIT

For clarity, I think since the word "Feminist" is a prominent idea in culture, you can get some real fruitloops gathering under the label where you wouldn't with something obscure like Pyrrhonian skepticism. I don't see a mass movement of pyrrhonian skeptics with smaller sects of pyrrhonian skeptic zealots who read from a holy pyrrhonian skeptic bible (or circulating memes, as seems to be the case with the fruitloopinists) of falsities and propaganda like I do with the Gender-isms.

[Pa3s]

I have a rather negative impression of feminism. As Scapegrace already implied, it is almost an anachronism today (in the western world). There are also no women's or men's rights in my opinion, just people's rights. And it's certainly important to preserve them. Just not only for women or any other group of people but for everyone, equally.

I often get the impression that feminists are so radical just to get "revenge" for the hundreds of years of patriarchy. They try to impose rules just to create similarly unfair conditions, but for men. This article describes a prime example of this approach.

[Words]

Hehe, lungs and her controversial threads. Good call.

[ashlesha]

my feminist views are mostly concerning the issues of sexual violence and widespread assumptions about gender which i don't think are moot in western culture. these studies are from the 90s but they get at the sort of thing i'm talking about and i don't think they're resolved. there are definitely far worse things happening in the world. i don't know if we should start comparing pakistani women to starving african children or litter in nyc to smog in china or if these kinds of comparisons are relevant.

i also don't know if i'm idiosyncratic in thinking that things like mens custody rights and the low reporting rates of abused males are also issues that fall under the umbrella of feminism. just like cultural acceptance of rape and murder of middle eastern women, they are symptoms of the historical perception of gender. i've been told maybe i should just call myself a proponent of human rights, but that feels like giving in.

it is frustrating, though, that mens rights and feminism are seen as opposing philosophies. its also frustrating when men are blamed in isolation or when i'm accused of blaming men in isolation when the historical root issue is all pervasive and has been perpetuated by society in general, including men and women, for how many years. its also frustrating when extremists are used as examples of feminism, just like all republicans are tea partiers and all those for drug legalization are potheads.

[Scapegrace]

my feminist views are mostly concerning the issues of sexual violence and widespread assumptions about gender which i don't think are moot in western culture. these studies are from the 90s but they get at the sort of thing i'm talking about and i don't think they're resolved. there are definitely far worse things happening in the world. i don't know if we should start comparing pakistani women to starving african children or litter in nyc to smog in china or if these kinds of comparisons are relevant.

i also don't know if i'm idiosyncratic in thinking that things like mens custody rights and the low reporting rates of abused males are also issues that fall under the umbrella of feminism. just like cultural acceptance of rape and murder of middle eastern women, they are symptoms of the historical perception of gender. i've been told maybe i should just call myself a proponent of human rights, but that feels like giving in.

it is frustrating, though, that mens rights and feminism are seen as opposing philosophies. its also frustrating when men are blamed in isolation or when i'm accused of blaming men in isolation when the historical root issue is all pervasive and has been perpetuated by society in general, including men and women, for how many years. its also frustrating when extremists are used as examples of feminism, just like all republicans are tea partiers and all those for drug legalization are potheads.

I actually absolutely agree with most of this. However, I think it has more to do with general human welfare than women in particular. Distinguishing these problems as MRM (male right's movement) issues or feminist issues ads yet another degree of separation. I think we can agree that it's beneficial to the population as a whole when courts award custody to the best parent for a child regardless of that parent's gender.

In ideal society nobody would ever take advantage of anyone -- sexually -- or other wise, but I don't think any amount of campaigning or raising awareness is going to stop people (men or women) from taking what they want if they are inclined towards sexual violence. Women are not the only people who sexually victimized either. My mother used to sleep with married men simply to blackmail them. I don't think any of them ever even thought of going to the police because it would have emasculated them.

Also if you're getting unwanted attention from boyz you can just wear these:
http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/18/hairy-...ntion-3845865/

[Words]

I believe in equal rights, except I don't know if feminism..... well women are ready for it, to be completely equal.

As a man I still treat most women differently, because, regardless of the intellectual arguments, as a man I can say to another man, eg "This is shit", but to say it to a women I phrase it differently, simply because i'm aware of the physical differences and a women might find it overbearing for example, seeing someone bigger than them being a little annoyed about something.

It's not just as simple as that, I find men evaluate things in terms of does it work/not work, whereas women evaluate it on, do I like this person/not like this person.

Also, gender has been investigated, but I don't trust all the findings because to produce dichotomous results can leave the researches open to being called sexist, but here's something from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_dif...ans#Psychology

Differences in male and female jealousy can also be observed. While female jealousy is more likely to be inspired by emotional infidelity, male jealousy is most likely to be brought on by sexual infidelity. A clear majority of approximately 62% to 86% of women reported that they would be more bothered by emotional infidelity and a clear majority of 47% to 60% of men reported that they would be more bothered by sexual infidelity.[8]

Seems a common thread that women are more passioned by emotional things, and i've seen this trait through various cultures i've read about.

So maybe I got it wrong but it seems to work in what I can understand in my experience.

Ultimately I think we should have the same opportunities, but the sexes will still treat each other differently in comparison to how they will treat their same sex.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'd rather just call it human rights and to support whatever group is being the target of some sort of double standard that doesn't make sense. I'm for gay rights because I'm a gay man you are for women's rights because you are a woman, it's healthy to be self-interested like that. Whatever 'type' one is, they are going to feel the brunt of some sort of stupid rule.

The thing with feminism is that a lot of women use it when it suits them but when it isn't useful they'll drop it like a $2 habit. So they will be like "hmph, you think I can't do that because I'm a girl!" and then they will do the thing society told them they couldn't do... but they still will want protection from an evil thug in an alley... because well, that is also natural because women on average have weaker bodies or something (well according to the frailty myth they don't but I disagree) and I guess my point is, anybody can take political correction too far. I don't want women to feel bad for needing/even wanting to be protected or anything but... I feel like society is pulling them in so many directions. You're still expected to be everything to everybody kinda. You have to be this dykey career-focused girl who is independent and has her own money but at the same time you have to be a caring compassionate friend.

And it goes both ways and often with feminism we forget about the man. Part of feminism (it should have a different name like gender equality imo- that would even help include gay people as misogyny is linked to homophobia) is understanding that men have feelings and souls we just aren't brutes who lift milk crates. Studies have shown if men feel comfortable to talk about our feelings we will commit a lot less violent crimes. I also don't like being tall and looking 'manly' because people ASSume all sorts of stuff about me, yes a lot of if it is positive but it's negative as well. I've seen women put men in a box just as much as males have put females in a box, so instead of feminism - which would put too much power in the hands of females and thus exacerbating things and creating more victims, we need to call it something else, gender equality is the best imo. After all, the entire point of not being able to discriminate based on sexual orientation is that it applies to straight people as well, but again we as a nation have to utilize common sense. I don't like a bunch of straight men looking in our bars like we're zoo animals, or we exist as nothing but a joke to them, sometimes it's okay to just want to be around your own kind and discriminate others on a personal basis... it doesn't mean people are haters or "wanting to keep the negro down" as it were.

I think this is healthy for every movement, a lot of women advocate for feminism but women don't like each other... they don't like other women yet they are for woman's rights. it's bizarre to me. It's disheartening to me when girls don't get along.

Also on Buffy, a very feminist show which I love, they sometimes tried to "fix" things by humiliating the guys and empowering the girls too much, which was eyeroll to me, and it really reminds me of this super good quote I heard somebody say once:

Most people don't want to end human suffering. They just want to be the ones that are holding the whip.

[malna]

Generally speaking, there are some nasty leftovers in people's brains from overpast times.

I don't think any of them ever even thought of going to the police because it would have emasculated them.

That's one example.

We can agree that they don't belong, still they have an impact. Sometimes we notice, probably more often we don't because we grew up in this, but it's harmful regardless. So I'm a feminist. Wham!

Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with Words:

Ultimately I think we should have the same opportunities, but the sexes will still treat each other differently in comparison to how they will treat their same sex.

Exactly this. Perception of men and women has been and will be different, same for treating them. Fighting this would be ridiculous but it just shows that there is a need to keep an open eye so that these differences won't influence granted possibilities.

[Words]

Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with Words:


Exactly this. Perception of men and women has been and will be different, same for treating them. Fighting this would be ridiculous but it just shows that there is a need to keep an open eye so that this differences won't influence granted possibilities.

Are we the sexes opposite then...some emoticon like >..>

[malna]

Don't push it.

[blackburry]

~~~F ornication.

[InvisibleJim]

I treat everyone equally. It's not popular because men like to see women get preference and many woman like to feel both 'special' yet 'empowered'. Destructive testing has shown this is the most confusing thing about dealing with most women. It's a ridiculous and unnecessary mixture of 'you must be my shining knight' coupled with 'fuck you for being a chauvinist' had to stop. So it did

I found a much better way to value people, by what value they bring: Do they make other people more productive? Can they do something no-one else can do? Are they someone you just want to have around? Are they trustworthy and beyond reproach? If most of these are exhibited to be a yes, then regardless of their sex they are good people. But no-one gets chauvinist favours.

However there is a lot of changes which are required to remove certain biases in the social state and legal systems to remove legacy anti-male discrimination that is inherent to their design.

As I once told an INFp lodger who was staying with me when she complained that she left her husband and the country of Belgium her kid stayed with him 'Well, I don't really think that's a problem, sounds pretty fair to me.' AGHAST REACTION 'I'm sorry that you assumed there was the same bias in the Belgian legal system as here, unfortunately it matches with how I think the world should work. Didn't you do your research before you got married and bred? Surely you considered him a capable man to breed with and to look after the child in your absence?'.

[xerx]

I'm more attracted to people that act like equals and share my interests.

I don't want to live out my life with some submissive homemaker wife in a suburban house with a white picket fence. I would probably commit suicide from boredom.

Also, I hate being the one expected to pay for expenses, including dates. I appreciate it when there is agreement to split the payment in proportion to each person's level of income.

[ashlesha]

lkgblhbjlgbkjlhlkjhlkhshdfljkdhaflkashflakdjshfsdf kjasdfha

[Beautiful sky]

my feminist views are mostly concerning the issues of sexual violence and widespread assumptions about gender which i don't think are moot in western culture. these studies are from the 90s but they get at the sort of thing i'm talking about and i don't think they're resolved. there are definitely far worse things happening in the world. i don't know if we should start comparing pakistani women to starving african children or litter in nyc to smog in china or if these kinds of comparisons are relevant.

i also don't know if i'm idiosyncratic in thinking that things like mens custody rights and the low reporting rates of abused males are also issues that fall under the umbrella of feminism. just like cultural acceptance of rape and murder of middle eastern women, they are symptoms of the historical perception of gender. i've been told maybe i should just call myself a proponent of human rights, but that feels like giving in.

it is frustrating, though, that mens rights and feminism are seen as opposing philosophies. its also frustrating when men are blamed in isolation or when i'm accused of blaming men in isolation when the historical root issue is all pervasive and has been perpetuated by society in general, including men and women, for how many years. its also frustrating when extremists are used as examples of feminism, just like all republicans are tea partiers and all those for drug legalization are potheads.

So, you're saying that women are less likely to report sexual abuse because they view the crime because they're made to feel embarrassed by society's expectations and men less likely to report their crime because they see themselves as men? And the feelings of shame or guilt is set by how society views gender rights/roles? And, you do you see the "feminist" role as the "fighter" against these gender stereotypes to prevent these views so that women can break free from these thoughts and protect themselves when needed?

[FDG]

It's not just as simple as that, I find men evaluate things in terms of does it work/not work, whereas women evaluate it on, do I like this person/not like this person.

Meh, I haven't really found this to be true at all, in my circles.

[Absurd]

As long feminists won't turn out like Black Panthers did, that is, ending up promoting everything they have fought against, you don't have anything to fear.

[ashlesha]

So, you're saying that women are less likely to report sexual abuse because they view the crime because they're made to feel embarrassed by society's expectations and men less likely to report their crime because they see themselves as men? And the feelings of shame or guilt is set by how society views gender rights/roles? And, you do you see the "feminist" role as the "fighter" against these gender stereotypes to prevent these views so that women can break free from these thoughts and protect themselves when needed?

i think societal expectations are one major reason both males and females don't report. i think the rates for females are brought up to highlight how common it is and to counter the "bitches always false accusing" thing. i dont know the numbers otoh but i'm pretty sure reporting rates are much lower for males because the climate created by gender roles makes it even harder for them, i think. (and this is where indignant anti feminists jump in and blame womens expectations of men but i think its a side effect of a culture that labels men as stronger and more capable, which has been generally convenient for men for a pretty long time.)

i don't really have an opinion on what the "feminist role" is. i think a feminist is whoever calls themselves one. different feminists have wildly different agendas and opinions.

[Aquagraph]

This is one of those terms that require further explanation. If you say you're a feminist it might mean that you advocate:
-the equality of genders in rules and attitudes of the society.
-benevolent sexism before in the rules and attitudes of the society.
-superior position for women in society. This is very rare, I must add.
-women breaking their gender roles in their personal lives.

What issues does my feminism/egalitarianism revolve around:
-Advocating against men only conscription.
-Freedom to break gender roles as well as to follow them without other feminists seeing you as a betrayer.
-Advocating against policies that favor either gender. Some Finnish schools give considerable advantages to applications if the applicant would be a gender minority in the profession.
-Women's right to kill all parasitic lifeforms within.
-Wearing a skirt (kilt). Not necessarily related.

I still am more likely to open doors to women. Somebody has to enter a building/room first and women first is already a familiar norm to many. If I want to get really mathematical about it, it's less of an effort for an average man to open a door than it is to the average woman. Fuck you if you think I imply that I implied that women can't open doors or some shit like that.

As a counter-reaction to modern feminism, the one that fights against women acting what is considered a traditional role for them, I try to resurrect and maintain some norms that are (often benevolent) sexism.


Of course the standards in any relationship will be clarified in longer interaction, but I have preferences.

Personally I like to date women that can take charge of domestic matters. This doesn't mean that I'll just delegate doing the dishes, cleaning and cooking to her, but more like that she takes the initiative in dictating how domestic matters are handled. I must also add that I love and appreciate a well-timed sandwich every now and then.

My penis imposes the heavier and mechanical tasks to me. They involve carrying, operating and moving anything heavy (with the exception of driving because I don't have a license), crafting, providing the protection against hostility and gritty tasks (like cleaning the bong). In social events, I'll prefer to take the initiative and introducing my lady.

[Absurd]

What issues does my feminism/egalitarianism revolve around:
-Advocating against men only conscription.
-Freedom to break gender roles as well as to follow them without other feminists seeing you as a betrayer.
-Advocating against policies that favor either gender. Some Finnish schools give considerable advantages to applications if the applicant would be a gender minority in the profession.
-Women's right to kill all parasitic lifeforms within.
-Wearing a skirt (kilt).

This isn't even remotely egalitarianism, but seeing you're a "feminist" I compiled a Socionics Manifesto of my own.

1. Establishment of Absurd Hit Squad,

2. Freedom to kill people of my and my AHS's choosing worldwide,

3. Death to whomever raises a hand or voice against AHS,

4. Technological advancements leading to starting AHS Space Program and alliance with new life forms.

-Women's right to kill all parasitic lifeforms within.

This made me lul hard. There are parasites that benefit the host by calming the immune system.

[ashlesha]

What do you propose be done?

in the western world like ive said i think its generally just a culture thing and there's not much to be done except communicate. i mean if you could bring the percentage of 11-14 year old kids who think rape is acceptable inside of marriage down from 87% to 0% that would be fantastic, but that's not something you can write into policy. i'm not even sure how i feel about policies in colleges that favor women etc. since i think that sort of thing breeds resentment and perpetuates the "men and women have to fight for opposing rights" myth and i'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons in the long run.

so i dunno. i think visibility and time are on the side of a lot of "fairness and rights" types issues like gay marriage, etc, like how interracial marriage is pretty normal now (at least in my part of the country). i don't know what causes major shifts in public consciousness that happen quickly so all i know to do is provide visibility and foster communication and wait. i know this isn't a very satisfying response. there are more tangible efforts to be made other places in the world about more pressing feminist issues.

[malna]

@Aquagraph, you are a rare gem.
Also, it's confusing, reading yet another ILE who seems to think so much like I do (obviously I don't mean this thread alone).

[Absurd]

Red alert.

And to think I am under-appreciated when I want to kill things, too.

[malna]

Red alert.

And to think I am under-appreciated when I want to kill things, too.

There, there.

[ashlesha]

i feel silly for saying this but since i'm posting a lot in this thread i just don't want to give the wrong impression. please nobody take what i say as representative of a groups opinions or anything other than just my own personal opinions.

[Aquagraph]

in the western world like ive said i think its generally just a culture thing and there's not much to be done except communicate. i mean if you could bring the percentage of 11-14 year old kids who think rape is acceptable inside of marriage down from 87% to 0% that would be fantastic, but that's not something you can write into policy.

Is this a statistic?!

i'm not even sure how i feel about policies in colleges that favor women etc.

This kind of benevolent sexism makes some women get the place instead of more qualified men. It also means that in time all women going and gone through those institutions will suffer from the prejudice as they are seen as less qualified.

If doing that is okay, why wouldn't we also do the same with ethnic minorities?

[ashlesha]

Is this a statistic?!.

its in the link from my first post. its kind of dated (from 1991 iirc) so i wonder what the number would be now. it was 87% of boys and also a significant number of girls, i think it was like forty something (can't be bothered on my phone but the link is there.) the study used the word "forced sex" to avoid the stigma of the word "rape." it also asked if forced sex was acceptable under various other scenarios and the responses are pretty depressing.

edit: just checked and it was 79% of girls. damn

[Aquagraph]

@Aquagraph, you are a rare gem.
Also, it's confusing, reading yet another ILE who seems to think so much like I do (obviously I don't mean this thread alone).

Thanks. I'd love to open doors for you all night long, baby.

Sorry.

i feel silly for saying this but since i'm posting a lot in this thread i just don't want to give the wrong impression. please nobody take what i say as representative of a groups opinions or anything other than just my own personal opinions.

I'd rather have people think of you as a typical feminist instead of the archetypal bitter lesbians who hate men.

[Absurd]

There, there.

Ehh, too late...

[Aquagraph]

its in the link from my first post. its kind of dated (from 1991 iirc) so i wonder what the number would be now. it was 87% of boys and also a significant number of girls, i think it was like forty something (can't be bothered on my phone but the link is there.) the study used the word "forced sex" to avoid the stigma of the word "rape." it also asked if forced sex was acceptable under various other scenarios and the responses are pretty depressing.

Raping within a marriage was still legal here back in 1994 or 1995. Although I guess feminism is doing well overall, this seems to be very persistent. Maybe we are hardwired biologically to think so or something.

[ashlesha]

I'd rather have people think of you as a typical feminist instead of the archetypal bitter lesbians who hate men.

i thought public perception of those was the same thing

[malna]

I'd love to open doors for you all night long, baby.

Or at least the morning after.

Yes, my brains are boiling, must be about 1438473 degrees here. Long live feminism.

[squark]

Is this a statistic?!

This kind of benevolent sexism makes some women get the place instead of more qualified men. It also means that in time all women going and gone through those institutions will suffer from the prejudice as they are seen as less qualified.

If doing that is okay, why wouldn't we also do the same with ethnic minorities?

They do. It's called affirmative action. And one effect is that the women and minorities that do get jobs in typically white male-centric occupations where affirmative action is in place are automatically eyed with suspicion because people assume they're not as qualified. There are a number of people who refuse to go to black doctors for example because they assume that they're clueless numbskulls who only got through med school due to affirmative action policies. There are also places in the US that are very white-dominated states, where if you're a minority you can get practically any job you want if it's state/government related, with just the barest of qualifications because it's so difficult for them to meet the required quota.

Those policies have nothing to do with equality, and everything to do with sexism and racism, as it's assuming that women and minorities need help to get into certain jobs or professions because they're inherently inferior to white men. A lot of people don't recognize it for what it is, and call it a victory for women's rights or victory over racism, and it's nothing of the sort.

Any time you make special rules that apply to certain groups and not others, it separates those groups and creates an inequality among them. There has been for quite a few years a push to get women into STEM jobs (science, tech, engineering, math) and it's been a success in some ways, as now women outnumber men among PHD students in STEM fields, but, when you look closer, they're all crowded into the softer, human-centric areas. Biology and health, not CS, physics or engineering. In math and engineering - men still far outnumber women, because few women WANT to go into math or engineering. The only thing that forcing a quota in those areas would do, would be to give the few women in the fields an extremely unfair advantage. And it'd make the very qualified women that are working in the fields suddenly eyed with suspicion, and seen as less qualified than they actually are as people would assume they had help to get where they did.

[Absurd]

Oh squark, let Aqua fight whatever he is fighting...

I heard Garden Gnomes are oppressed and would prefer to spend their free time under water and not in garden.

Egalitarianism misunderstood once again.

[Kill4Me]

fuck feminism...it's a bunch of miserable spinsters

[malna]

[Aquagraph]

fuck feminism...it's a bunch of miserable spinsters

Most feminists I know of are a lot more constructive and less whiny than you are. Seriously, take a look at your last ten comments at any given time. They are mostly one-liners about complaining something and calling people names. Seriously, you seem very miserable. Get laid, start a new hobby or just give up and kill yourself.

[Kill4Me]

no, not fuck everything...fuck the feminists.

At this point, the best thing the feminists can do is to murder themselves...Jonestown style.