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Thread: There is Fear in Freedom

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Default There is Fear in Freedom

    The world is so massive. We can't know all the possibilities, even if we wanted to. So we go through life with blinders on, seeing only what's in front of us. We go through school. We join the rat race out of requirement. All for our protection. But then as we get older, we realize that there are those blinders hindering us from seeing all the things we could be doing...and so we reach to remove them.

    I reach to remove mine, and I overflow with total, paralyzing fear. It wells inside of me, creating a dense weight in my feet and chest, and then it climbs higher and spills out of my eyes.

    I could be doing anything in this world, but I was trained to only see the paths. I thought I understood that I was "free"....free to be what I want, or go anywhere. Get in my car and go. But there's this other meaning to freedom that totally terrifies me. It's a meaning to the word that feels foreign and taboo. The idea that you can actually...just leave. Leave all this. Whatever your day to day life looks like, you can drop it and go. You can throw it on the floor and get in your car and be gone in the bat of an eye. Anywhere. It doesn't matter where. You can walk yourself right into a concert venue and introduce yourself if you dream of performing on stage. Your dreams can actually become real. You won't find your dream job on simplyhired.com or craigslist. You have to create the opportunity. But the thought of that is so overwhelming. I'm trying to bring the idea inside me and digest it..but it's just so huge.

    There are invisible chains around our minds and our ankles that limit us. We are told we are free. And we think that we understand what that means. But we don't.
    And when I realized what it meant just an hour ago, I was filled with Dread. Dread and Hope.
    How do you set yourself free? I want to be free......

    I wonder if you know what I mean.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Welcome to the real world.

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    There's a surprising amount of freedom in discipline.
    The trickster is at one and the same time creator and destroyer, giver and negator, he who dupes others, and who is always duped himself.

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    This freedom you speak of is an illusion. We have societal obligations, familial ties, have made past investments (both emotional and physical), perceive ourselves in set ways with certain set habits and desires we find hard to change.

    You can already see the path that you are to walk. The rest will fade away. It always does.

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    I made a similar thread to yours Fen about 7 years ago when I was roughly your age about the same very topic. Unfortunately after 7 years, despite what I've gone through, I'm no closer to achieving freedom now then I was back then. The only difference between now and then is I know a little bit more on what needs to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    This is false.
    We can always argue on the specifics. but the fact remains that our environments + numerous factors constrain us from making major changes in our lives. And in the cases that we do, it's usually when the particular constraints/barriers that used to hold us back have lost their grip on us (i.e. when things have changed, whether physically or mentally).

    Theoretically speaking, we *can* pack our bags and take a ride to other end of the world, just as how we *can* do anything that we set our minds on. But it is wrong to say that just because we can, we will.

    Hence, it is foolish to speak of unlimited freedom when our choices are in actuality, limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenoa View Post
    We can always argue on the specifics. but the fact remains that our environments + numerous factors constrain us from making major changes in our lives. And in the cases that we do, it's usually when the particular constraints/barriers that used to hold us back have lost their grip on us (i.e. when things have changed, whether physically or mentally).

    Theoretically speaking, we *can* pack our bags and take a ride to other end of the world, just as how we *can* do anything that we set our minds on. But it is wrong to say that just because we can, we will.

    Hence, it is foolish to speak of unlimited freedom when our choices are in actuality, limited.
    If you take a decision to do something despite having the choice to do something different then that's your choice; not a constraint on freedom. Erroneously misinterpreting the result of your own choices as being choices made by others is flawed.

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    why is it scary fen? the responsibility?
    it reminds me of some of the existential philosophy i've come across. "should i kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?"

    i think objections on the basis of external obligations miss the point. and this probably misses the point too so you can think of it as a tangent, but it makes me think of how our options get narrower and narrower based on previous decisions. like you have the freedom to commit a felony but if you make that choice, you lose the freedom to legally become president of the u.s. et cetera. and over time our freedom whittles down further and further. and i find that kinda scary.

    also... we do have physical limitations, like we can't fly or turn into dolphins. so i don't see why that wouldn't also apply to mental and emotional limitations. if you're scared to the point of paralysis at the thought of jumping on stage, do you really have the freedom to do so? (maybe if you work on your shyness first, but it still isn't the kind of freedom talked about in the op)

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    It's one thing to say you have freedom to do X Y Z, but once you really approach the cusp of where your mental space is and look over the ledge to realize just how easy it would be to leave everything you've ever known - when you no longer take for granted the rule set you've chosen to abide by, and it becomes just another option as well - it's enough to make you shit your pants if you're still bound to even the smallest of things keeping you from jumping off the ledge. You forget your reasons for being at point A in the first place and they become mere artifacts to be examined objectively, like some family heirloom you might dust off in your attic. But you're not quite done with the transition, because change is like death in that you really only know what it's about once you get to the other side. If you fail to truly undergo it in the process of transition, then you frantically claw at whatever it was that held you back a few moments ago, and you perpetuate the cycle under different conditions. This is relapse. Truly experiencing your freedom never fills you with fear.
    Last edited by RedBeard; 06-11-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    The trickster is at one and the same time creator and destroyer, giver and negator, he who dupes others, and who is always duped himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    If you take a decision to do something despite having the choice to do something different then that's your choice; not a constraint on freedom. Erroneously misinterpreting the result of your own choices as being choices made by others is flawed.
    It represents a forced compromise that does not reflect what we truly desire, should life be as limitless and we as free to create ourselves as made out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs
    i think objections on the basis of external obligations miss the point. and this probably misses the point too so you can think of it as a tangent, but it makes me think of how our options get narrower and narrower based on previous decisions. like you have the freedom to commit a felony but if you make that choice, you lose the freedom to legally become president of the u.s. et cetera. and over time our freedom whittles down further and further. and i find that kinda scary.
    Indeed.

    @OP: Every step forward, every choice we make in a given direction opens and closes different doors. Go far enough in a given direction and certain doors will be forever closed to us. That's the dilemma.

    Personality typology, aptitude tests and the like have a role to play in helping us know ourselves and how we compare to the rest of the population. Figure out our own innate abilities, tendencies, motivations and merge that with the skills/advantages that we have gained while fumbling through life, and we can use that as a guide to narrow down the choices; find the direction that can best maximise our abilities while keeping us relatively happy.

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    The trickster is at one and the same time creator and destroyer, giver and negator, he who dupes others, and who is always duped himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenoa View Post
    It represents a forced compromise that does not reflect what we truly desire, should life be as limitless and we as free to create ourselves as made out to be.
    Well that's a theoretical consideration. When you take a choice it has certain outcomes associated with it. If the outcomes turn out not be what you expect you should consider changing the choice with dignity if possible. Obviously, some choices are not back-out-able of. That's a concept we have learned to call responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    I thought I understood that I was "free"....free to be what I want, or go anywhere. Get in my car and go.
    I would say you still can. It would require having no ties/breaking them after you made them.

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    Wow fen, I feel the exact same way.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Just have a back up plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Well that's a theoretical consideration. When you take a choice it has certain outcomes associated with it. If the outcomes turn out not be what you expect you should consider changing the choice with dignity if possible. Obviously, some choices are not back-out-able of. That's a concept we have learned to call responsibility.
    Well there's a difference between having choices and making decisions. My original point was that many of the choices we perceived to have aren't feasible and hence aren't worth considering.

    But you raised an interesting one on responsibility. Be a responsible person and stick to your existing responsibilities, and it won't be hard to predict where you'll end up. Being a moral maverick though, will open up choices and take you far. But not many are willing to go down that route due to its ethical consequences.

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    A few days ago you said that you felt happier, that you were a firework. Now it seems like you're a plastic bag again, one blow from caving in etc.

    It reminds me of a post that Gilly made that I really liked... no matter what you're doing or who you're doing it with you're going to feel crappy one moment and happy the next. Yes, jobs are an illusion but it doesn't matter- even if you were to do something completely artistic and fun you would feel this way, the feelings would probably even be more scarier not less- more extreme and potent and diverse.

    So it's just part of being human that you're yanked around by what you're feeling. Some days you're going to feel insecure and like the plastic bag, other days you're going to feel all rawr and 90s feminist like and empowered and firework-y and shoot straight up to the sky. It's just how it is, everything is connected- the firework and the plastic bag are really the exact same thing.

    And the problem with being a floaty free spirit all the time probably is that you don't really see something for what it is, you always see it for what you want it to be, the spiritness depends on a certain fluffiness whereas the heart is heavy. Love will give you so much pain but don't run from this pain either, sorry I don't mean to be preaching at you- this is a good lesson for everybody.

    You just feel things deeply, like me. It won't kill us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    but once you have, you're enslaved to them.
    not really

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    You're free to choose your desires, but once you have, you're enslaved to them.
    Make up your mind. Either you're free to choose or not. No in betweens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    suck my black cock you piece of shit ******
    you're abrasive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    Precisely.
    my steak knife cuts precise.

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    In the end, it is not so much about all you can do, but about what you really want to do. Once you have figured that out (the hardest part perhaps), you take it step by step, which is a lot less daunting. And if you learn to dust yourself off after rejections and failure, the world is truly at your feet.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Shrug. The purview of one's possible choices in any given moment may be curtailed by the facticity of their immediate conditions, but nothing can deprive a person of their essential capacity to choose any among these. Any so-called moral/societal/familial/whatever obligations are illusory. We're all condemned to be free.
    Capacity to choose, yes. Timing and feasibility of choice, perhaps not. I defined freedom in the context of this thread as laying within the limits of constraints/obligations etc mainly because it is practical to do so. Once we've taken these into account, we'll certainly find that we aren't as free as initially thought. But that also means that there isn't quite as much to fear.

    But I quite like your spirit. Just bombing away all the constraints.

    In the end it boils down to priorities and values. And since these are subjective... well. To each his own.

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    That kind of freedom comes from disassociating from society. Which can be a good thing if your society sucks, and if you have another society to join in mind. Some people even go live in the mountains in isolation, and learn to live off the land... gathering berries and shit. That is freedom as well. Freely acting however you please within the culture, though, makes you a taboo breaker... you end up ostracized and shamed by the culture. Still you can get away with breaking alot of norms if there aren't consequences to be had. It is best to leave the culture completely, though. Which is why I plan on moving to another country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenoa View Post
    We can always argue on the specifics. but the fact remains that our environments + numerous factors constrain us from making major changes in our lives. And in the cases that we do, it's usually when the particular constraints/barriers that used to hold us back have lost their grip on us (i.e. when things have changed, whether physically or mentally).

    Theoretically speaking, we *can* pack our bags and take a ride to other end of the world, just as how we *can* do anything that we set our minds on. But it is wrong to say that just because we can, we will.

    Hence, it is foolish to speak of unlimited freedom when our choices are in actuality, limited.
    A person can easily work toward leaving their culture. It will not happen over night because we are so tied up, but the restraints can be lifted one at a time... it requires work to do so.

    If you have enough money and the right attitude, you can flat out leave...
    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    You're free to choose your desires, but once you have, you're enslaved to them. The alternative is to choose nothing, and do nothing.
    Which is scarier?
    You can detach from your desires and recover, but it requires martyring yourself first. i.e. entering a treatment center, publicly confessing / shaming yourself, destroying your computer harddrive... anything to fuck up the situation which you are in.
    Or the 3rd option... escape your desires with an even larger desire.
    Last edited by rat1; 06-17-2013 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    It wasn't an in between. If you are sitting in your living room with no current obligations, you are free to choose what you'd like to do (with realistic restrictions). Let's say you choose to travel to Nevada. You get in your car and start driving. Once you are on your way, you are "enslaved" to the task of obeying the laws of the road so you aren't arrested or killed, fueling your tank, etc. If you pussy out, or find your choice was unwise, you can return to your home. So in a way you're always "free to choose," though it might not be rewarding to do so.

    Basically my point is that having endless freedom is like sitting on a pile of money you could spend, but instead save, which makes it worthless. Freedom is worthless with out the will to inflict slavery upon yourself with the intention of experiencing something/achieving a goal.

    Basically my point is, slavery is fun! : D wooooooooooooo (when self-inflicted cough cough)
    You're caustic.

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