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Thread: Self-development/perfectionism/how to be less judgmental?

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    Default Self-development/perfectionism/how to be less judgmental?

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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Might need more details, but one way to modify putting so much time and effort into evaluating people and issues and phenomena around you is to, ironically enough, contemplate how something is positive/good, how it is also negative/bad, and what parts of it are interesting to you. Yes, this is further evaluating, but it is diversifying the judgments instead of narrowing them down. It also helps your mind open up to options, other possible ways of looking at something/someone. Helping to pull you out of the habit or ingrained process of judging. It helps your mind accept that there is both good and bad even in the things you find interesting. This, by the way, also helps break up some perfectionism routes when you begin to see something 'perfect' or 'beautiful' has its own flaws and imperfections, and that many times it is those very flaws and imperfections that help make it beautiful and interesting.

    Another route might be a mindfulness route. Where instead of judging something, you restrict yourself to merely describing what is actually happening. Like if you were a news reporter trying to report on something as unbiasedly as possible. If you are a writer, write it out. Or maybe record it on a voice recorder so you can listen to it again. Both these recording/writing methods allow you to review what you said and find the bias words you inadvertantly placed in there. Then you can rewrite it from memory, removing or editing out the bias. After doing this, you'll slowly see less bias and thus less judgments in your viewings/recordings.

    The two above might not be applicable to the specifics you had in mind, though.


    Edited to add:
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572247568 is a book about perfectionism and selfdevelopment. It has exercises in it to help become more mindful, less perfectionistic. I have not read this book, I've only see the few pages which you can preview via amazon.

    I mention it because of the many exercises, but also because it defines perfectionism in a few ways. It breaks perfectionism down into, for example, directed at yourself and/or directed at others. Do you accept yourself but are critical of others, critical of yourself but more accepting and supportive of others, or maybe critical of both yourself and others?

    Is the perfectionism in specific areas of your life, or is it generalized across a variety of domains?

    Is your perfectionism a pursuit for perfectionism for its own sake, or is the perfectionism a means to an end?

    I thought those breakdowns were interesting, and it forces contemplation and defining what you're actually dealing with. Kind ofmgoes along with 80% of the solution is clearly defining the problem, sort of thing.

    The preview also included defining perfectionism as a hunger, then broke it down into three categories of hunger.
    1. Perfectionistic hunger for approval/validation...to be praised, patted on the back, etc.
    2. Perfectionistic hunger for reflection/attention...to feel seen, heard, acknowledged, attended to, etc.
    3. Perfectionistic hunger for control/certainty...to be reassured that you are on the right track, to have a sense of control over something or even over yourself.

    (Note, i think enneagram might be helpful with this part, too.)

    Ultimately, this book defines perfectionism as a desire or expectation for reality to be different from how it is, to be better than it is. The exercises seem geared towards helping the reader learn to accept the moment, to accept self and others as being perfect now, in their own ways.

    Like i said though, i can't say yay or nay on the book nor its exercises, but maybe the ways of looking at perfectionism might jog something.?.
    Last edited by anndelise; 06-10-2013 at 03:13 AM.
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    I struggle with the same issues, so I look forward to seeing what people have to say on this topic.

    I once gave a speech in a public speaking class on related issues called "The Mirror of the World"... I'll look for the script and post it here when I find it.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    I don't suffer from this kind of stuff. I do the best I can with what I have now and with that, I'm a positivist, I'm content with myself.

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    Sometimes being perfect is about ticking all the boxes and improving things. Other times its about showing comprehension and reason. Sometimes it's about being compassionate and considerate. Everyone has this issue due to how time constrained and complex our lives are and there is no magic pill. Fortunately there is less requirement for perfection and this gives us freedom to be imperfecty content in our perfectionism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Don't get me wrong, being conscious and generally curious about almost everything are some of the things I like about myself the most, but I feel like my self-confidence relies too much on those and that as soon as my education or intelligence fails me and I cannot find anything smart to say I feel super lost and anxious - "I judge, therefore I exist." If I was to kitchen psychologize this I'd say this has something to do with the fact that my family was never very affectionate and we never clicked on an emotional level, but instead I got acceptance and positive attention from them by showing off how intelligent and civilized I was compared to others - getting better grades etc.
    I could write about myself and it would be this, almost word for word.
    There are ways to mitigate this tendency, somewhat. I don't know if it can ever go away entirely. I'll think about it, how I cope. Maybe I'll be able to come up with anything helpful later. For now, I wanted to let you know that I get where you're coming from.

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    @Agarina, I came across this video of a lecture on creativity by john cleese, and I thought it might be helpful for you.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-on-Creativity

    Perfectionism and judging would likely be linked with "closed mode".
    Following the suggested ideas in his lecture to create an "open mode" leads to creativity, which also leads to less perfectionism.

    If the info in this lecture is at all helpful to you, then I would also strongly suggest looking up Edward deBono and his "Lateral Thinking" book.
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    Perfectionalism is highly useful but also debilitating, imo each of us have areas we are perfectionist in.

    I figure the fact that you recognize your perfectionism is something good and bad is a start, but just being or laid back feeling may not be what you want in life. I'm not saying there aren't times where you want to feel laid back and what not but that experience might get boring for you once you achieve it.

    If you want to develop yourself, I think skills, ability and many other things will help you a lot more than feeling laid back or "just being".

    I don't recommend people to be less perfectionist but it's important in my opinion to find some esteem in what you're able to provide for yourself and others.

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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    I'm sure @NobleFool will love to give you advice, after all the crap you've laid on him.

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    @Agarina: Sounds like enneagram 1 issues, and I identify with some of it. Will hopefully be able to say something more constructive later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    @Agarina: Sounds like enneagram 1 issues, and I identify with some of it. Will hopefully be able to say something more constructive later.
    Thanks, that'd be great!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    This may or may not be pertinent for you, but I found it helpful: http://paidtoexist.com/the-number-on...growth-addict/

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    This may or may not be pertinent for you, but I found it helpful: http://paidtoexist.com/the-number-on...growth-addict/
    I don't understand what 'real growth' in the article is, or what else to do apart from the 'fake growth' symptoms outlined. I'd be interested in your opinion on that if you feel like sharing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    I don't understand what 'real growth' in the article is, or what else to do apart from the 'fake growth' symptoms outlined. I'd be interested in your opinion on that if you feel like sharing.
    It's when you stop trying to improve for the sake of meeting some ideal, you recognize and appreciate who you are and the best parts of yourself and you allow those parts to thrive. It's eliminating the "I need to" and "I should" kind of statements you feed yourself in the pursuit of molding yourself into something else, and it's about getting in touch with who you are and allowing that person space to expand.

    In my experience, perfectionism is about ideals. It's about having an ideal image of yourself, other people, the world, whatever. It's an idea that this is what should be. And for me, there can be a lot of anger and frustration when I can't make myself or whatever into what it should be. The problem is, nothing should be anything. Ideals are imaginary. They are things created in a mind and not reality. Trying to jam reality into these pictures of "perfection" is fruitless and frustrating. And self-improvement can very often be just an extension of trying to fix reality, trying to fit an ideal. Even ridding yourself of perfectionism, and becoming this serene accepting person can come from the idea that you should be like that.

    It can be really hard to say, "This is what I am, and it's good." Immediately on seeing that statement I want to argue it and say, "No, it's not good. I need to do this this and this better, and I have problems with this and that." It's because in my mind there's a perfect version of myself, and it's always moving out of reach - I'm never satisfied with how I am right now. Perfectionism and the fake growth that the article was talking about is about this. It's about always trying to make yourself into that ideal image, and not being satisfied with who you are. It can be hard to recognize that the ideal is nothing, and hard to see yourself without the judgement attached - to just see what you are, what you're good at, what you're bad at, and to not try to fix it for the sake of the ideal.

    You don't let go because you think you should, or it seems like a good idea, and you don't try to change because it will make you more "perfect," and there are no steps to follow or exercises to do to help you let go of judgement imo. It happens when you aren't trying to bend reality to your will or fix all the discrepancies from your ideal. It's about appreciating that reality can be better than your imagination if you let it. It's about side roads and detours and breaking your timetables. It's not about trying. It's about appreciation, gratitude, maybe even awe at what lies beyond the narrow lines drawn by ideals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Oh and @squark, I understood what you said much better than the article. The article contained a lot of instigative language that I felt so conveyed a sense of judgmentalism that it was working against itself. Idk what Guava was referring to exactly but I felt the article contained a lot of catch phrases that did not appear professional or even helpful.
    Ah okay. It might be his style of writing. I liked it and the ideas he was trying to convey, but can see where you're coming from.

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    Something unrealistic and counterproductive is not perfect, now is it? Crash perfectionism in to itself.

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    @squark @dolphin - Food for thought, thank you. I apprehend a lot of the points now.
    Reason is a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Damn, you were actually one of the people I had in my mind when I wrote this. I often find your posts very insightful and thought-provoking.
    I couldn't find what I wanted to post in thsi thread but I can't add anything else to what squark and dolphin have said.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Not sure what the OP was about but having struggled with perfectionism a bit since I was younger I would say that perfectionism can be emotionally stifling and can border on delusional. It's this strange obsession with seeing one's ideals as the something more real than the reality in front of you and blinding oneself to the fucked up psychological complex that informs it. As a form of avoidance it also feeds into one's fear of intimacy with other people -- either by masochistically judging oneself too harshly or judging the people or environment around oneself. It provides this strange sense of safety that just leaves one feeling empty and attached to routine behaviors and not fully investing in life. It's amazing to me that people who have it worse than I do somehow actually come to realize how fucked up their situation is and get some help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I mention it because of the many exercises, but also because it defines perfectionism in a few ways. It breaks perfectionism down into, for example, directed at yourself and/or directed at others. Do you accept yourself but are critical of others, critical of yourself but more accepting and supportive of others, or maybe critical of both yourself and others?

    Is the perfectionism in specific areas of your life, or is it generalized across a variety of domains?

    Is your perfectionism a pursuit for perfectionism for its own sake, or is the perfectionism a means to an end?

    I thought those breakdowns were interesting, and it forces contemplation and defining what you're actually dealing with. Kind ofmgoes along with 80% of the solution is clearly defining the problem, sort of thing.

    The preview also included defining perfectionism as a hunger, then broke it down into three categories of hunger.
    1. Perfectionistic hunger for approval/validation...to be praised, patted on the back, etc.
    2. Perfectionistic hunger for reflection/attention...to feel seen, heard, acknowledged, attended to, etc.
    3. Perfectionistic hunger for control/certainty...to be reassured that you are on the right track, to have a sense of control over something or even over yourself.

    Ultimately, this book defines perfectionism as a desire or expectation for reality to be different from how it is, to be better than it is. The exercises seem geared towards helping the reader learn to accept the moment, to accept self and others as being perfect now, in their own ways.
    Interesting, the idea on how there's so many versions of perfectionism. I thought I didn't really have it that much because I'm not the very critical type and while I can be a bit obsessive about some details, I stop myself from going beyond a limit beyond which I simply see no point as the goal is overall more important; but I see myself in the 3rd version of this list a looot. And I guess I have another version of it that's not listed here. This post is quite illuminating really, thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Not sure what the OP was about but having struggled with perfectionism a bit since I was younger I would say that perfectionism can be emotionally stifling and can border on delusional. It's this strange obsession with seeing one's ideals as the something more real than the reality in front of you and blinding oneself to the fucked up psychological complex that informs it. As a form of avoidance it also feeds into one's fear of intimacy with other people -- either by masochistically judging oneself too harshly or judging the people or environment around oneself. It provides this strange sense of safety that just leaves one feeling empty and attached to routine behaviors and not fully investing in life. It's amazing to me that people who have it worse than I do somehow actually come to realize how fucked up their situation is and get some help.
    I also liked reading this post as it again makes quite some sense to me. Except for how it leads to feeling empty and the attachment to routine behaviours? Explain that part a bit more?

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