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Thread: Is incompetent and irresponsible a SEE trait?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Is incompetent and irresponsible a SEE trait?

    Sorry SEE's, but I have to ask. My Mom's caregiver is a SEE, she stays here while I work, and she seems to be incompetent at most things. "Light" housework goes with the job, but its really light and you basically pick your work, just any job of any duration at any point of the day. She likes laundry, but she will start it and not finish it. I have a busy job, my Mom to take care of when I get home and my son who is a teen but that takes awareness (and driving here and there) and everyone to shop cook and clean for and I will have time to do ONE necc. load of wash - and the washing machine will be full and the dryer too. I have to do that before I can do my one load.

    And her wash is all mixed up. She will wash anything, and altogether, a whole mix of items, then into the dryer, all of it. All my moms sweaters are shrunken. I have told her many times and I think she has it finally got this: if you choose to do a wash, do just one and finish it. But everything still ends up in dryer. Its so much work to explain things to her but then I go to the trouble and she does things her own crazy way anyway.

    I decided to make a suggestion list so I am not just cleaning up after her and everyone else too. The second day into the list choice method, disaster. One suggestion was clean the windows to the patio, and vacuum the screens (I usu. do this once a year myself). Well, she yanked out the screens and broke 5 of them! They won't go in now! They cost around $50 to replace each! Its nice weather and I can't open the windows now! I know she is poor but she is denying any responsibility. My budget is very tight. They were "deteriorating" she says (the metal/plastic corners are snapped, not deteriorated but she can't follow that reasoning). She wrote a long letter to my brother indignant that she be told she "brake" them and how she was once a homeowner (I honestly don't think she was) and she knows how to take care of things and things around here need maintenance. Believe me, my ESTJ brother knows about maintenance. He maintains! Two houses, his and a double with tenants. Plus is two jobs and many hobbies...

    It would be one thing if she said, "Sorry,I forced them and I broke them and I can't afford to replace them" but when she denies doing it, I can only think some other crazy thing will happen next (crazy things do happen).

    She also is secretive about where she goes. I said she can take Mom with her when she goes on errands but i would like to know where she goes. Like what part of town, what plaza, whose house, how long? But its like pulling teeth to find out anything. She gives brief answers - always "appt." or "errand" that require much asking. I ask and its like, "Jan's". Well who is Jan and where does she live?. She is so secretive.

    She is also bossy. My ESTP son can't stand her for this. She feels entitled to boss all kids no matter how big, and I have told her to leave him alone but that doesn't stop her (sometimes he gets home before me).... Well, she bosses in general.

    Okay, any type can be wacky, but how much of this is type related?? Because the other SEE I know well is my SLI boyfriends young adult daughter, and she is the extreme of responsibility-shirking. And incompetent! Cant even make her own 3 year old's mac n' cheese... But she excels in bossing others to do things for her...

    Any insight into this situation??

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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    Have you ever tried telling her what to do?

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Can we stop with the blanketing of traits across a type?

    Seriously.
    Makes me sick.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    Delta NFs are always complaining about blanketing traits across a type.

    Is this a trait?

    @Aiss clearly nothing is type related. Give up on socionics now.

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Dont make me hurt you Jim.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Have you ever tried telling her what to do?
    Yes though I am not the greatest at bossing. So maybe I could improve. When I do tell her things I will pick one simple thing I want her to do correctly, like say, put ONLY one scoopful in the cat dish each day because the cat won't eat stale food, I have to throw it out (and the tin of cat food is right next to the dish, and the tin is full, and the scoop is in the tin, so its not complicated) and I show her and tell her nicely and a week later the dish is overflowing and I nicely tell her again, assuming with repetition she will get it.... I work with Autistic children so I get figuring kids out who aren't "making sense", but I can't figure her out. I am just frustrated. I called her daughter who said Mom takes shortcuts and then runs into problems because of shortcuts... That does sound like her... I don't want to expect more of her than she can give but I need to know what I can expect of her...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Sorry SEE's, but I have to ask. My Mom's caregiver is a SEE, she stays here while I work, and she seems to be incompetent at most things. "Light" housework goes with the job, but its really light and you basically pick your work, just any job of any duration at any point of the day. She likes laundry, but she will start it and not finish it. I have a busy job, my Mom to take care of when I get home and my son who is a teen but that takes awareness (and driving here and there) and everyone to shop cook and clean for and I will have time to do ONE necc. load of wash - and the washing machine will be full and the dryer too. I have to do that before I can do my one load.
    Hire an ILI instead. In home caregiving is not a natural trait of SEE types; there isn't enough varied interest to keep their interest in the job. An introvert would do better at repetitive and mundane work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    And her wash is all mixed up. She will wash anything, and altogether, a whole mix of items, then into the dryer, all of it. All my moms sweaters are shrunken. I have told her many times and I think she has it finally got this: if you choose to do a wash, do just one and finish it. But everything still ends up in dryer. Its so much work to explain things to her but then I go to the trouble and she does things her own crazy way anyway.
    You assume that explaining or telling her will get her to do something she doesn't want to do. Remember the will of an SEE? They want to decide what to do on their own and not be told. My brother is like that, he's SEE too. I can not tell him to stop covering every spot of water on the floor with a new towel. He has a strange towel fixation now. But, when he sees me pick up all the towels and throw them in the wash, he gets the point after SEEING me do it. They are sensory types first so they need to sense, see, hear whatever through their own vision to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I decided to make a suggestion list so I am not just cleaning up after her and everyone else too. The second day into the list choice method, disaster. One suggestion was clean the windows to the patio, and vacuum the screens (I usu. do this once a year myself). Well, she yanked out the screens and broke 5 of them! They won't go in now! They cost around $50 to replace each! Its nice weather and I can't open the windows now! I know she is poor but she is denying any responsibility. My budget is very tight. They were "deteriorating" she says (the metal/plastic corners are snapped, not deteriorated but she can't follow that reasoning). She wrote a long letter to my brother indignant that she be told she "brake" them and how she was once a homeowner (I honestly don't think she was) and she knows how to take care of things and things around here need maintenance. Believe me, my ESTJ brother knows about maintenance. He maintains! Two houses, his and a double with tenants. Plus is two jobs and many hobbies...
    Confrontational behavior mixed with emotional manipulation. That's what I see here. Don't blame her, but again SEE aren't always the best at keeping things from breaking, they rush or are hasty and they yank and pull things too hard. Am I getting the feeling that you would feel sad to let her go at this job, is that why you would hesitate to find someone new?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    It would be one thing if she said, "Sorry,I forced them and I broke them and I can't afford to replace them" but when she denies doing it, I can only think some other crazy thing will happen next (crazy things do happen).
    It's understandable, Eliza. She doesn't want to be blamed for things she doesn't do on purpose and I'm very sure she doesn't (poor soul!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    She also is secretive about where she goes.
    That's just her pushing her own will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I said she can take Mom with her when she goes on errands but i would like to know where she goes. Like what part of town, what plaza, whose house, how long? But its like pulling teeth to find out anything. She gives brief answers - always "appt." or "errand" that require much asking. I ask and its like, "Jan's". Well who is Jan and where does she live?. She is so secretive.
    She's playing politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    She is also bossy. My ESTP son can't stand her for this. She feels entitled to boss all kids no matter how big, and I have told her to leave him alone but that doesn't stop her (sometimes he gets home before me).... Well, she bosses in general.

    Okay, any type can be wacky, but how much of this is type related?? Because the other SEE I know well is my SLI boyfriends young adult daughter, and she is the extreme of responsibility-shirking. And incompetent! Cant even make her own 3 year old's mac n' cheese... But she excels in bossing others to do things for her...

    Any insight into this situation??
    Yeah, hire someone else and if you can't do it get your ESTj brother to help out; they are not very emotional when it comes to that type of stuff.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-04-2013 at 04:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes though I am not the greatest at bossing.
    Expect continuous pushback and boundary challenges. But don't worry there are always answers for those who are adaptable. Carrots and sticks and all that.



    SEE management strategies:
    a) Nod and agree then disregard; often best managed when entirely oblivious and in your own world, i.e. you don't even need to put it on.
    b) Take ridiculously strong stances about minor infractions thus leading to establishing firm and reasonable boundaries when dealing with a prickly opponent as time tends to infinity. Often best managed when this is your natural way of interacting with people.

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    Your problem seems to be primarily with the laundry.

    Here is the solution: wash your own damn laundry. Seriously, tell her not to do it. Problem solved.

    Make your son do the laundry. It's an invaluable skill for adolescent boys to have.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    NTR. My sister is SEE and is a stay at home mom. Her kids always look immaculate and she is a great cook, house is always clean, etc. She is very good at practical everyday things.

    And a good SEE friend of mine is a clean freak. He is always cleaning up after his roommates, complaining that they are pigs. And he's quite handy too.

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    yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    @Aiss clearly nothing is type related. Give up on socionics now.
    what did you want again

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    obviously she doesnt suit this job the two of you also dont get along well so do yourself and her a favor and fire her.

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    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Your problem seems to be primarily with the laundry.

    Here is the solution: wash your own damn laundry. Seriously, tell her not to do it. Problem solved.

    Make your son do the laundry. It's an invaluable skill for adolescent boys to have.
    strikes again.

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Incompetent? Certainly not type related, intelligence or motivation related. Irresponsible? Certainly not type related, sociocultural values related.

    Unreliable? I could see how other types might view both myself and other SEEs I know that way. I myself sort of think of my closest SEE friend as unreliable in a social sense, in that he may cancel plans with me if we're just hanging out at last minutes notice. I also tend to take social obligations and plans as sort of written in sand rather than stone though so it doesn't generally bother me at all. However when something needs to be done, like work or meeting with someone for business, I generally can count on my SEE friends to pull through and personally I have always thought of myself as work ethic incarnate when things need to get done.

    So perhaps since they generally pull through in work settings unreliable may not be the best word. Flaky might be a better word, that word seems to have more of a purely social connotation. I have a tendency to make plans with someone a few times before they actually happen.

    Likely still not blanket type related though, I've had stages where I've kept all my social plans for months at a time and stages where I stop caring. I also know SEEs who would never do such things. *shrugs*



    I think they best way to conceptualize a SEE in this regard is that they are finely in tune with what activities or people attract or repulse them (and to what degree). For some SEEs if something doesn't hit a certain attraction threshold they may not participate, or in regards to repulsion my participate if it's not ~that~ repulsive. Where that threshold is located however, is fairly individualistic for every SEE.


    EDIT: For some reason this reply still strikes me as not entirely correct. I dunno, just write it off as NTR I guess.
    Last edited by JWC3; 06-04-2013 at 03:36 PM.
    Easy Day

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    Fire the caregiver. If they don't accept responsibility for their own actions, they'll just repeat the same behavior since they don't feel it was there fault. There's nothing learned from their mistakes.

    regarding the original question: Nurture > Nature.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    If this is a employee, and she's incompetent, get another employee. I don't even know why you have this person as a employee.

    If there is one problem with SEE's is that they tend to try to hide all the crap they mess up on when they do something wrong, they're not people I've found who own up to their bullshit, which of course everyone has. They then sweep in to fix their own messes and to try and establish their necessity. All SEE's I've met will do this occasionally as they're really trying to maintain good relations with folks and protecting themselves, however, the difference is that the competent ones usually offer a lot to the situation as well. ILI's don't really give SEE's the benefit of the doubt, this is a very suspicious type who will cop the SEE, I've seen this a lot between the SEE/ILI couple I know.

    The biggest problem with SEE's I've found is that they constantly hide their problems and messes they cause, to others, themselves and generally everyone around them. The secrecy is there to hide this, but what is hidden isn't always important, in this case obviously it's this individual's incompetence and lack of desire to perform her duties.

    I would not say incompetence or irresponsibility is a problem of SEE's but rather their consistent denial of their faults, wrongs, lies, and messes they cause. They can offer a lot to people willing to smooth these issues over for them, while curbing their worst excesses. Also be very careful if they happen to reveal a fault or a problem they caused, it's probably hiding something bigger.

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    Hire JWC3 as your new employee, Eliza.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    strikes again.
    Omg, omg, omg. So confused, so confused now.
    Last edited by Absurd; 06-04-2013 at 07:18 PM.

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    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Hire JWC3 as your new employee, Eliza.



    Omg, omg, omg. So confused, so confused now.
    Oh, sorry. . Because we're EIIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    Oh, sorry. . Because we're EIIs.
    That's better. Don't lie to me ever again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    Oh, sorry. . Because we're EIIs.
    EIIs can have startling bursts of Te genius.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    That's better. Don't lie to me ever again.
    You're a great guy.

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    Shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    You're a great guy.
    Think about it when you're going to have to stand in line to hate me.

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    Well, it's just a stone's throw away from IEE. How do you feel about yourself, contextually?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Hire an ILI instead. In home caregiving is not a natural trait of SEE types; there isn't enough varied interest to keep their interest in the job. An introvert would do better at repetitive and mundane work.
    Yes, i am getting that there is no reward at all in the actual work for her. I realize I want someone who has even a little bit of enjoyment in caring for others. And ILI, interesting. SEE's Dual. I have been praying for an ILI for her because she is so desperate to marry again (she is Mormon and my SLI boyfriend says they practice what he calls "serial polygamy" - marraige after marriage, and that seems to be true from what I have seen).

    It would be a good job for an introvert because its quiet here, our town home is in a secluded pretty spot great for quiet walks, private woods in back, and nice neighbors, so for anyone valuing their alone time there is plenty of that. We are also near everything and Mom can be taken along on errands. One could take college classes online while they worked, etc. This SEE has taken to watching a plethora of 1950s Netflix romance and marraige movies daily so that's all we get for suggestions from Netflix now. Which I wouldn't mind if there was something more were got from her too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    You assume that explaining or telling her will get her to do something she doesn't want to do. Remember the will of an SEE? They want to decide what to do on their own and not be told. My brother is like that, he's SEE too. I can not tell him to stop covering every spot of water on the floor with a new towel. He has a strange towel fixation now. But, when he sees me pick up all the towels and throw them in the wash, he gets the point after SEEING me do it. They are sensory types first so they need to sense, see, hear whatever through their own vision to get it.
    Yes, she defiantly has a will and since I ask so very very little of her, its exhausting when I finally decide to ask her something she does it on her own time, a different way, or not at all, etc. So from your example, she needs to see by example. Except she doesn't live here, and I just want someone who is more normal to explain things too!


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Confrontational behavior mixed with emotional manipulation. That's what I see here. Don't blame her, but again SEE aren't always the best at keeping things from breaking, they rush or are hasty and they yank and pull things too hard. Am I getting the feeling that you would feel sad to let her go at this job, is that why you would hesitate to find someone new?
    Well, I just hate to fire her but after writing all this out I came to see I need to. She lives on very little, she will go to great lengths to avoid any ties to traditional responsibility, like a real job, including live in her car, which I think she is now doing (cagey about this though, but I questioned her). She had her daughter paying her car insurance and her cell phone, then her daughters husband said enough, so she now has no cell phone or any plans to get one now so I can't reach her, but she does pay car insurance now, I think the only bill she has.

    But a grace is this week she mentioned a lot of "other people" are calling her in to "work", and she has to go to a "job" after she leaves my house. She won't say what work or job of course, but that will help me to let her go - she has other "work".

    In my codependent way I was thinking she needed this work and didn't want to deprive her of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    It's understandable, Eliza. She doesn't want to be blamed for things she doesn't do on purpose and I'm very sure she doesn't (poor soul!).
    Well, there are lots of things she "didn't do on purpose" that I had to foot the bill or the trouble for. This one was so expensive and ridiculous I felt I had to confront her. I feel that just absorbing the cost and trouble of her mistakes is not helping her learn anything from her mistakes.

    But we are absorbing the costs, and I am having her absorb some of the works. How SEE is this? --

    - I asked her Monday morning to take the screens into Smith Hardware and get and a written estimate and bring it to my brother [who pays all Moms bills]. After work I asked her if the screens were dropped off. -- No! she "didn't have time", she was "on errands all day". I had to [pry out what errands: besides taking her car into shop she spent the day at a friends house. This really put me off, but really felt like a typical response from her.

    - Tuesday after work I asked again -- No, she had not brought them in yet but said she would after work.

    - Wed. (yesterday) I was home with a fever and got a call from Jones Hardware (not Smith) that said that they could not fix these screens, don't have the corner pieces, and I could come pick them up....

    Last night when she called to see if I would need her to work today I told her abotu this call adn I asked her and she agreed to pick them up from Jones and take them to Smiths this morning. This afterrnoon, Smiths called me today and its $35 each to replace, so $189 with the tax for the job. SEE was at the store when they called so I had her put on the phone and I asked her to go pick up a check from my brother.

    So, so far this has cost me a bunch of texts and phonecalls and constant staying on top of SEE but at least I have not had to run any errands.

    I am going to view the $189 we pay as a parting gift to SEE who should be responsible for most of that (The way I see it, breaking one screen is understandable. Then you stop. But for one less conscientious, maybe one wouldn't get it till after he 2nd screen broke. But to keep on breakign 5 screens - she should have paid for at least 3!).



    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    That's just her pushing her own will....She's playing politics..
    Yes, and I have finally realized that I have enough to juggle in my life with wills - my teen son has age-appropriate strong will as he is individuating and finding his voice, my Mom has her Alzheimer's driven one, my students have their Autistic-driven wills, and I have enough special-needs to flex to, I don't need to have to bend to an employee's quirky strong will too. Its too much. I need a person who just wants to be helpful. I think I am a good match for such a person because my expectations are not high, whatever way they want "being helpful" to look like, I am going to be grateful. This can be a relaxing, easy flexible job for someone with the right mindset - and probably Socionics type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, i am getting that there is no reward at all in the actual work for her. I realize I want someone who has even a little bit of enjoyment in caring for others. And ILI, interesting. SEE's Dual. I have been praying for an ILI for her because she is so desperate to marry again (she is Mormon and my SLI boyfriend says they practice what he calls "serial polygamy" - marraige after marriage, and that seems to be true from what I have seen).

    It would be a good job for an introvert because its quiet here, our town home is in a secluded pretty spot great for quiet walks, private woods in back, and nice neighbors, so for anyone valuing their alone time there is plenty of that. We are also near everything and Mom can be taken along on errands. One could take college classes online while they worked, etc. This SEE has taken to watching a plethora of 1950s Netflix romance and marraige movies daily so that's all we get for suggestions from Netflix now. Which I wouldn't mind if there was something more were got from her too.

    Yes, she defiantly has a will and since I ask so very very little of her, its exhausting when I finally decide to ask her something she does it on her own time, a different way, or not at all, etc. So from your example, she needs to see by example. Except she doesn't live here, and I just want someone who is more normal to explain things too!



    Well, I just hate to fire her but after writing all this out I came to see I need to. She lives on very little, she will go to great lengths to avoid any ties to traditional responsibility, like a real job, including live in her car, which I think she is now doing (cagey about this though, but I questioned her). She had her daughter paying her car insurance and her cell phone, then her daughters husband said enough, so she now has no cell phone or any plans to get one now so I can't reach her, but she does pay car insurance now, I think the only bill she has.

    But a grace is this week she mentioned a lot of "other people" are calling her in to "work", and she has to go to a "job" after she leaves my house. She won't say what work or job of course, but that will help me to let her go - she has other "work".

    In my codependent way I was thinking she needed this work and didn't want to deprive her of it.


    Well, there are lots of things she "didn't do on purpose" that I had to foot the bill or the trouble for. This one was so expensive and ridiculous I felt I had to confront her. I feel that just absorbing the cost and trouble of her mistakes is not helping her learn anything from her mistakes.

    But we are absorbing the costs, and I am having her absorb some of the works. How SEE is this? --

    - I asked her Monday morning to take the screens into Smith Hardware and get and a written estimate and bring it to my brother [who pays all Moms bills]. After work I asked her if the screens were dropped off. -- No! she "didn't have time", she was "on errands all day". I had to [pry out what errands: besides taking her car into shop she spent the day at a friends house. This really put me off, but really felt like a typical response from her.

    - Tuesday after work I asked again -- No, she had not brought them in yet but said she would after work.

    - Wed. (yesterday) I was home with a fever and got a call from Jones Hardware (not Smith) that said that they could not fix these screens, don't have the corner pieces, and I could come pick them up....

    Last night when she called to see if I would need her to work today I told her abotu this call adn I asked her and she agreed to pick them up from Jones and take them to Smiths this morning. This afterrnoon, Smiths called me today and its $35 each to replace, so $189 with the tax for the job. SEE was at the store when they called so I had her put on the phone and I asked her to go pick up a check from my brother.

    So, so far this has cost me a bunch of texts and phonecalls and constant staying on top of SEE but at least I have not had to run any errands.

    I am going to view the $189 we pay as a parting gift to SEE who should be responsible for most of that (The way I see it, breaking one screen is understandable. Then you stop. But for one less conscientious, maybe one wouldn't get it till after he 2nd screen broke. But to keep on breakign 5 screens - she should have paid for at least 3!).





    Yes, and I have finally realized that I have enough to juggle in my life with wills - my teen son has age-appropriate strong will as he is individuating and finding his voice, my Mom has her Alzheimer's driven one, my students have their Autistic-driven wills, and I have enough special-needs to flex to, I don't need to have to bend to an employee's quirky strong will too. Its too much. I need a person who just wants to be helpful. I think I am a good match for such a person because my expectations are not high, whatever way they want "being helpful" to look like, I am going to be grateful. This can be a relaxing, easy flexible job for someone with the right mindset - and probably Socionics type.

    This all sounds very frustrating and you're not aggressive enough to deal with such a situation. I see that there are a lot of things going on in her own personal life that serve as distractors for her staying focused on her job and I also see possible issues, emotional or even mental ones, that she's adopted to deal with her life situation (being financially dependent) and other such things as a way of coping with her loneliness; she's frequently distracted. All in all, I know it's terribly heart breaking for someone like you to consider these factors about her, on one hand you stay true to your values and on the other you're generous and altruistic (you're seriously looking for other ways to approach her and to help improve the situation), however she's being hired to do a job. You are already very resentful of her shortcomings and how much more will that make you if things continue to go unresolved, too much I'm assuming. This isn't headed in a pretty direction in the way it is now; it would take a great deal of effort and energy to help her revamp her life into a secure situation in the hopes that that would improve her job performance and I'm not sure this is something for you. By this, I mean providing her with a permanent residence, getting her emotional and financial assistance, etc. It would take a lot of care to see how things would evolve for her if she were in a better physical situation and even then there's no guarantee that the way she is isn't because she's just distracted, it may be that she's got a mental impediment.

    I know an LSI boss who is very aggressive; he is unremarkably "heartless" in the way he confronts and holds SEE up to their responsibility. I don't like this approach; it makes SEE workers cry, but they work quietly, coldly, emotionally resentfully; it's heart wrenching to watch it and sometimes it takes me a lot of work to help the SEE understand how these Alpha males work and that they just want the job done. I don't see this approach working for you. I'm not sure what someone like your brother would do, I'm sure he would just fire her without so much thought about her financial situation.

    I don't know if you can fire her. I would see if your brother can help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    If this is a employee, and she's incompetent, get another employee. I don't even know why you have this person as a employee.
    Thanks for getting right to the bottom line. Yes, I need to un-employ her. I got real sick with flu/fever just after I posted this thread, I think because stress was just building in me and I saw no way out til the end of the schoolyear, with this SEE and her ways being a big part of the ongoing stress. I missed a record 2 days in a row of work and it will be 3 because I am taking one more day off to be all better. I hope tomorrow to make arrangements for someone new to cover the rest of the school year. I have good leads, one a sure thing though might not be available everyday.


    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    If there is one problem with SEE's is that they tend to try to hide all the crap they mess up on when they do something wrong, they're not people I've found who own up to their bullshit, which of course everyone has. They then sweep in to fix their own messes and to try and establish their necessity.
    All SEE's I've met will do this occasionally as they're really trying to maintain good relations with folks and protecting themselves, however, the difference is that the competent ones usually offer a lot to the situation as well.
    That goes with the pattern I see but you worded it well. Yes, every type has their level of competency. And this SEE has offered some things, primarily always arriving on time, and being available and flexible, and that has been a valuable help to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    ILI's don't really give SEE's the benefit of the doubt, this is a very suspicious type who will cop the SEE, I've seen this a lot between the SEE/ILI couple I know.
    This is interesting. So they are the ones who can help SEEs overcome this flaw, and be more socially acceptable in this respect. Duals really do help us be our best! Its interesting to see what the different kinds of Dual-type couples do for each other)..

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    The biggest problem with SEE's I've found is that they constantly hide their problems and messes they cause, to others, themselves and generally everyone around them. The secrecy is there to hide this, but what is hidden isn't always important, in this case obviously it's this individual's incompetence and lack of desire to perform her duties.
    I am glad to have this confirmed; it did see tied up in her personality style, although she is certainly and exaggeration of the incompetent kind of this type...

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I would not say incompetence or irresponsibility is a problem of SEE's but rather their consistent denial of their faults, wrongs, lies, and messes they cause. They can offer a lot to people willing to smooth these issues over for them, while curbing their worst excesses. Also be very careful if they happen to reveal a fault or a problem they caused, it's probably hiding something bigger.
    Oh my gosh, thanks for that warning. The SEE employee has not offered ANY faults of problems that I can think of, but better get out while I am ahead. Actually what you said here reminds me of a sense of caution I have had with my boyfriend's young adult daughter... I have so many cautions for what she says - I often give little to no reply because I am asking myself what she really is getting at or what she is hiding or what is her ulterior motive. And this continues because there usually is something. I do like her - she just puts me on alert when she talks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Incompetent? Certainly not type related, intelligence or motivation related. Irresponsible? Certainly not type related, sociocultural values related.
    True. I think incompetent was the wrong word. The way @hkmrr said it was best.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Unreliable? I could see how other types might view both myself and other SEEs I know that way. I myself sort of think of my closest SEE friend as unreliable in a social sense, in that he may cancel plans with me if we're just hanging out at last minutes notice. I also tend to take social obligations and plans as sort of written in sand rather than stone though so it doesn't generally bother me at all. However when something needs to be done, like work or meeting with someone for business, I generally can count on my SEE friends to pull through and personally I have always thought of myself as work ethic incarnate when things need to get done.
    True and I have appreciated this SEEs reliability in showing up for work all the time.

    So perhaps since they generally pull through in work settings unreliable may not be the best word. Flaky might be a better word, that word seems to have more of a purely social connotation. I have a tendency to make plans with someone a few times before they actually happen.

    Likely still not blanket type related though, I've had stages where I've kept all my social plans for months at a time and stages where I stop caring. I also know SEEs who would never do such things. *shrugs*



    I think they best way to conceptualize a SEE in this regard is that they are finely in tune with what activities or people attract or repulse them (and to what degree). For some SEEs if something doesn't hit a certain attraction threshold they may not participate, or in regards to repulsion my participate if it's not ~that~ repulsive. Where that threshold is located however, is fairly individualistic for every SEE.[/QUOTE] Yes, and that strikes me as the other thing I was thinking about her - as I don't see evidence that she really likes anything about caring for my Mom or the household. My SLE son would agree on that.

    Thanks for SEE input!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    This all sounds very frustrating and you're not aggressive enough to deal with such a situation. I see that there are a lot of things going on in her own personal life that serve as distractors for her staying focused on her job and I also see possible issues, emotional or even mental ones, that she's adopted to deal with her life situation (being financially dependent) and other such things as a way of coping with her loneliness; she's frequently distracted. All in all, I know it's terribly heart breaking for someone like you to consider these factors about her, on one hand you stay true to your values and on the other you're generous and altruistic (you're seriously looking for other ways to approach her and to help improve the situation), however she's being hired to do a job. You are already very resentful of her shortcomings and how much more will that make you if things continue to go unresolved, too much I'm assuming. This isn't headed in a pretty direction in the way it is now; it would take a great deal of effort and energy to help her revamp her life into a secure situation in the hopes that that would improve her job performance and I'm not sure this is something for you. By this, I mean providing her with a permanent residence, getting her emotional and financial assistance, etc. It would take a lot of care to see how things would evolve for her if she were in a better physical situation and even then there's no guarantee that the way she is isn't because she's just distracted, it may be that she's got a mental impediment.
    It has been frustrating and I think this was the straw that made me get the flu this week. I never get sick in spring.

    And yes, she is a more powerful force than me, easily assertive in spite of being so child-like. I can certainly assert myself but I go to "hold back" automatically, that is my habit. I will assert myself without hesitation only in situations where I see an injustice or unfairness happening - I can be pretty quick on that. But in so many other situations I hesitate, I would rather let it go than speak up, and sometimes I am sorry later. I usually need time to think an entire situation through before I will speak up. By then the situation is usually passed, and just think, "oh well"...

    But my SLI's daughter is also SEE, and I remember realizing after much stressful interaction in their home (I had stayed there with them 3 diff. weeks at that point and this was the 4th) that I - and we - could not possibly live with his SEE daughter. (It was one of the things we were considering - add an addition, and we were busy making plans for it together, and she was inserting herself into our discussions, uninvited, with her invasive curiosity, and "filling" all the rooms, "my daughter's room, the playroom, a library room for my books...". And she was NOT kidding. She was staking her territory - which she had made and would continue to make ZERO contribution to). But it wasn't only that, it was that her personality was more forceful than either of ours, and what is so nice about us together is the peace we have together, and when she came in the door it was like she was the eye of the hurricane... Well there were even more important reasons, including SEE's own good, to decide to make our own home, and my SLI is 100% on board (relieved, actually) with our new plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    now an LSI boss who is very aggressive; he is unremarkably "heartless" in the way he confronts and holds SEE up to their responsibility. I don't like this approach; it makes SEE workers cry, but they work quietly, coldly, emotionally resentfully; it's heart wrenching to watch it and sometimes it takes me a lot of work to help the SEE understand how these Alpha males work and that they just want the job done. I don't see this approach working for you. I'm not sure what someone like your brother would do, I'm sure he would just fire her without so much thought about her financial situation.

    I don't know if you can fire her. I would see if your brother can help.
    My LSI brother I woudl not call heartless, but he is not so in tune to feelings. But having been married awhile and raised three kids and having had his ESFJ wife point out his in-sensitivities towards a daughter, he gained a certain caution and awareness he might err in the feeling department.

    But I think I will do this, I feel its my responsibility, and I am more confident of my ability to do it nicely than his... I may ask for advice here if it doesn't come to me by the time I have to talk to her.

    Oh, and I will be doing it soon. Gods ways are so perfect. I got so sick with fever Tues nite and all I could do was rest and the rest these two days did me good. The fever is gone and I will stay home tomorrow to complete the recovery but I will be well enough to make the SEE's replacement plans. On Tuesday we took our [school] kids to the zoo and I was complaining about the screens to a coworker (we are usually too busy to talk) and she said her mother is a caregiver and is just now looking for a new caregiver assignment. She says her mom is "truly amazing" and a natural helper-type person. (No one, especially SEE's kids, would describe SEE as those things!). She and her sister were just that morning worrying about their mother's situation, so God really was looking over this whole thing. And I am so reluctant to do something that might be unkind or inconvenient or disappointing that I would have kept procrastinating action if were it not for the screen craziness. God truly looks after all our interests and desires!

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    Eliza, you're whiny and you are over complicating this situation. Blaming a virus on this woman is absolutely absurd. Certainly you must see that.

    Do you have *any* idea how difficult it is to find someone compassionate at providing in home care? What you have is a slightly blundering employee who has good intentions and simply needs better direction. What you could have is a person who is pysically and intellectually abusive to your mother; or a person who expolits your/her situation for financial gain.

    Have you even asked your mother (assuming she's cognisant enough) how she feels about having her caregiver replaced? This woman is employed -- after all -- primarily to help your mother. It seems incredibly extreme to fire her because she failed to complete a few laundry cycles and because she's accident prone when it comes to HOUSEKERPING, which is NOT her job. If you want a maid hire one. You hired this woman to take care of your mother.

    Also: the way you're looking down on this woman because of her circumstances is utterly nauseating. Some Christian.
    Last edited by Scapegrace; 06-07-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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    How about listing specifically what her job entails, clearly written out expectations, before hiring? Signed contract, blah blah blah.

    Consider what you've written and complained about, and then consider how what you wrote says about how competent and responsible YOU as an employer? And then maybe reconsider if incompetence and irresponsibility are specifically SEE traits.
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    First of all she wasn't hiring this woman to be an in home care taker but a general worker, like a handi-person is a general worker and not a plumber or any specific crafts person.

    Second, stress can reduce a person's immune response to external pathogens and yes she can get a cold and even viruses if her immunity is compromised.

    Third of all, calling someone whinny because that's how you perceive them doesn't make them whiny, it makes you inability to see individuals.

    And, the list could go on from there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    First of all she wasn't hiring this woman to be an in home care taker but a general worker, like a handi-person is a general worker and not a plumber or any specific crafts person.
    "My Mom's caregiver is a SEE, she stays here while I work, and she seems to be incompetent at most things. "Light" housework goes with the job, but its really light and you basically pick your work, just any job of any duration at any point of the day."

    Does that say "my personal assistant?" No, it does not. As I said, if she wants a maid she should hire one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Second, stress can reduce a person's immune response to external pathogens and yes she can get a cold and even viruses if her immunity is compromised.
    If she is *so* stressed out by someone not being perfect that it's affecting her immune system she should probably consider life in solitary confinement. Nothing she has said about this woman warrants anything beyond bemused annoyance. She's not stealing shit. She's not taking bad care of Eliza's mother. She didn't kill the family dog by mistake. She broke some screens that SOMEONE ELSE is paying for and watched some romcoms on netflix. Give. Me. A. Break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Third of all, calling someone whinny because that's how you perceive them doesn't make them whiny, it makes you inability to see individuals.

    And, the list could go on from there...

    Nope, she's whiny because she's whiny. Remember, Maritsa, I'm Fe. I can see straight through people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    "My Mom's caregiver is a SEE, she stays here while I work, and she seems to be incompetent at most things. "Light" housework goes with the job, but its really light and you basically pick your work, just any job of any duration at any point of the day."
    Care giver is not a professional in home care taker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Caregiver is not a maid nor housekeeper.
    I'm sure a formal job name, title and description was not given per Census requirements at the time of hire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm sure a formal job name, title and description was not given per Census requirements at the time of hire.
    If the employer wasn't clear about the job description before hiring the employee, then the employer was irresponsible and/or incompetent in her own job of hiring someone to care for her mother.
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    To add on...personally, I don't think Ep make very good employers, particularly NeFi. Too much gets left unsaid, hinted at, indirect, changed, and otherwise not communicated clearly enough for a successful employer/employee relationship. This helps lead to confusion, miscommunications, misunderstandings, stress for both parties, and ill feelings towards each other, as well as distrust in each other's abilities. Being an employer requires either clearly asserting your desires/needs regarding the job, or trusting the employee to clearly know her own job and duties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    To add on...personally, I don't think Ep make very good employers, particularly NeFi. Too much gets left unsaid, hinted at, indirect, changed, and otherwise not communicated clearly enough for a successful employer/employee relationship. This helps lead to confusion, miscommunications, misunderstandings, stress for both parties, and ill feelings towards each other, as well as distrust in each other's abilities. Being an employer requires either clearly asserting your desires/needs regarding the job, or trusting the employee to clearly know her own job and duties.
    You just got done blaming her for being an incompetent employer and now you're saying NeFi don't make good employers; total contradiction. Why don't you rephrase that to "I think NeFi don't make good employers but I see that you've tried your best."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    You just got done blaming her for being an incompetent employer and now you're saying NeFi don't make good employers; total contradiction. Why don't you rephrase that to "I think NeFi don't make good employers but I see that you've tried your best."
    Do you ever bother rereading what you write to see if it makes sense?
    I called a self-typed NeFi an incompetent employer, and then said that I think NeFi don't make good employers. There is no contradiction there.
    First statement: NeFi=incompetent employer
    Second statement: NeFi=incompetent employer
    Nope, no contradiction.

    And I didn't say that I "see she tried her best" because I don't seriously believe she tried her best, not during the hiring phase, and not now. Instead of acknowledging her own part in the problem, she blames the other woman for it all, and even tried turning it into a match of wills. To the point where she has made herself sick over it. And even then she failed to acknowlege her part of that, and blames it on the other person...AGAIN. I certainly hope that is not her "best" communication abilities. If it is, then her "best" approach as an employer would be to find someone better at being an employer and who is better at interviewing and hiring a caregiver for her mother.
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