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Thread: Taxation is Theft Video

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Default Taxation is Theft [Video]


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    True.

    There are three types of taxes
    a) Services which are required: i.e. to pay for the legal system, to pay for taxes to exist.
    b) Fines/charges against activities which have a negative impact on others (externalities); e.g. I drink alcohol and the govt has to fix the extra problems this causes, or I pollute so the government has to restore the environment to near natural conditions.
    c) Wealth redistribution

    Type C is just blatant theft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Agree that taxation is theft. I'm all for a littler government.

    Keep in mind, inflation is also theft. Inflation is the hidden tax. It fuels government spending at the cost of weaker buying power to the consumer, essentially a tax, and also causes the prices of everything to increase.

    *Edit* I also want to add, government will try to downplay inflation, always, since they don't want consumers waking up to realizing it's a hidden tax. Don't listen to government propaganda downplaying it like no big deal. An economy never needs 'a little inflation' to do well- in fact, if we have deflation, that helps consumers, as our dollars have more power and prices of things go down. Governments promote inflation to screw consumers.
    deflation is also very good for the export Since the USA is autark and we don't live in a globalized world it might not be a matter.

    What is more important cheaper vacations in mexico or a countries economy?

    And when you have as many debts as the USA believe me the last thing you want is deflation

    But you're really right about the fact that the inflation is payed by the people just look at Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Yeah. Honestly, I don't believe the elite of the US have any intention of paying it back.

    If a bully steals your lunch money every day for 2 years, he's not going to one day go to you and say 'I'm going to give you $1,000 back for screwing you, to resolve this economic imbalance'. No. He has the power, so he cares less about the economics.

    The rest of the world is catching the US, both in economics & power. It's only a matter of time before a new country emerges as best. Most likely China it seems at this point. However, I don't see that happening in the next 5 years, because of all the mess in Europe - I see investors fleeing back to the safe haven of the dollar *when* the Euro collapses ('when' because I'm that positive ). But the possibility of China being #1 I believe is likely over the next 20 years long-term.
    It's not about really paying it back

    But when you have to much deflation you loose in the game of bonds because you interests for bonds will raise(they will raise because the prognose of the public economy will be bad). When the interest is to high compared to your gdp you're really screwed.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    a) Services which are required: i.e. to pay for the legal system, to pay for taxes to exist.
    Services for which there is no rational argument why free markets are incapable of providing.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    b) Fines/charges against activities which have a negative impact on others (externalities); e.g. I drink alcohol and the govt has to fix the extra problems this causes, or I pollute so the government has to restore the environment to near natural conditions.
    If the government limited itself to the enforcement of property rights, this would be the most moral use of tax revenue. Unfortunately, no government in history has ever followed this practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    c) Wealth redistribution

    Type C is just blatant theft.
    As opposed to the subtle theft in your first two examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Yes, exactly. This is why countries are inflating like crazy right now, engaging in massive money-printing, to essentially lower the amount they owe to other countries.



    Yes. It's like when you put your full income towards credit card interest, but it's not enough just to pay the interest, and your debt exponentially grows beyond your control. Yes, "really screwed". The US is nearing that level.

    This year, I'm glad to see that Obama has cut back spending compared to his previous years. *Only* 400 billion deficit for 7 months through the fiscal year is the lowest since he's been in office at this point in the year.

    I don't believe we'll see a cosmic collapse of the US, or hyper-inflation, like some people are worried about. I think what will happen, is that the Fed Funds rate could be jacked high, up to 7-8%, triggering a stock market collapse and further crashing the real estate market as the money supply shrinks, which could be rough for 2 years; but after that, the US could have 10-15% inflation per year for a decade. A situation similar to the 1970s inflation seems more likely in my opinion than another Great Depression.
    You know the situation in the USA better than i do. Your prediction seems possible are you sure about Ni-POLR? lol



    In general i don't think that wealth distribution is theft everyone profits from it. A country is more attractive for entreprises when the education level is high and for that you need public spending on good education. I don't say we need an equal society but when you look at "successfull" countries in europe 5% of the richest own as much as the other 95%. But there are constitutional rights for social healthcare and a garanteed money support to life a acceptable life for people who are longterm without a job. When the poorest can life in dignity everyone profits from a safer society.

    At the moment the USA is one of the countries in the western world where you have the lowest chance to make it from the bottom to the top. One of your amendments garantuees the right to strive for luck but when your parents are poor and you go to shitty schools even when your intelligence is above average it's unlikely you can make real use of this amendment

    But i agree that it is in end a value decission
    Last edited by DaftPunk; 05-27-2013 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Services for which there is no rational argument why free markets are incapable of providing.

    If the government limited itself to the enforcement of property rights, this would be the most moral use of tax revenue. Unfortunately, no government in history has ever followed this practice.

    As opposed to the subtle theft in your first two examples?
    Legality is an oddity because you can't have a law based on the ability to pay for protection and consider it just. The poor have as much right to protect their property as the rich.

    Well externalities are where for example I dump my shit all over your garden and then don't have any intention to pick it up. So they should charge me for the damage caused to your property.

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    Lul.

    CPig, don't get arrested again.
    Last edited by Absurd; 05-27-2013 at 04:06 PM.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Legality is an oddity because you can't have a law based on the ability to pay for protection and consider it just. The poor have as much right to protect their property as the rich.
    The laws enacted by a monopolized tribunal system rarely consider what is fair or just, and what's more, seek to limit and regulate rights of ownership as opposed to protecting them. Legislators chiefly concern themselves with politicking, rather than the defense of property rights. The law is upheld by coercion (i.e., force or the threat thereof), and obeyed because we have no other choice; we must submit to the law as read by a despot and his committee of tyrants, or else.

    What you've just described is precisely the situation as we see it today, not what I inductively infer to be the case were law and order made into a private and competitive industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Well externalities are where for example I dump my shit all over your garden and then don't have any intention to pick it up. So they should charge me for the damage caused to your property.
    I know what externalities are, they are a cornerstone justification of economic interventionism. They are also utterly meaningless, in my view, to the proper study of economics. You've made no argument here, only demonstrated a lack of imagination by implying a resolution would be impossible, were it not for the government imposing some tax or subsidy to "cover" an invisible and ambiguously calculated external cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    The laws enacted by a monopolized tribunal system rarely consider what is fair or just, and what's more, seek to limit and regulate rights of ownership as opposed to protecting them. Legislators chiefly concern themselves with politicking, rather than the defense of property rights. The law is upheld by coercion (i.e., force or the threat thereof), and obeyed because we have no other choice; we must submit to the law as read by a despot and his committee of tyrants, or else.

    What you've just described is precisely the situation as we see it today, not what I inductively infer to be the case were law and order made into a private and competitive industry.

    I know what externalities are, they are a cornerstone justification of economic interventionism. They are also utterly meaningless, in my view, to the proper study of economics. You've made no argument here, only demonstrated a lack of imagination by implying a resolution would be impossible, were it not for the government imposing some tax or subsidy to "cover" an invisible and ambiguously calculated external cost.
    *shrugs*

    Then present some alternatives wise guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    And, they are all white people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    And, they are all white people.
    ...

    Yes, racist capitalists campaigning for zero tax, so they can have more money to indulge in their racist ways...

    Well spotted, Maritsa...

    CPig's secret is out.

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    Fucking old white people. How dare they try to keep the money they have earned. Bastards. They should be forced to give it all to Armenia, land of the free and socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Fucking old white people. How dare they try to keep the money they have earned. Bastards. They should be forced to give it all to Armenia, land of the free and socionics.
    The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are. Israel is a mixed economy inclined toward socialism. But when it comes to the power of the mind—the development of industry in that wasted desert continent—versus savages who don't want to use their minds, then if one cares about the future of civilization, don't wait for the government to do something. Give whatever you can. This is the first time I've contributed to a public cause: helping Israel in an emergency - Ayn Rand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Poor Maritsa. She wishes she could be a white person too.
    Armenians are White...

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    Click me constructive more ILIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Armenians are White...
    He's a moron, what can you say.

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    Not necessarily - he can be frequenting racialist forums besides this one and get his ideas therefrom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Armenians are White...
    There's white and then theres albino like the Scottish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    There's white and then theres albino like the Scottish.
    You mean transparent. Seriously though I don't really know what you did to the Irish and English that they have mixed feelings(?) about Scottish and vice versa...

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    Theft can be kind of cool sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Keep in mind that around 1 third of our budget is borrowed from either the Federal Reserve or elsewhere, which means that each year we increase our debt and also increase inflation by introducing new bills into the economy.














    The trickster is at one and the same time creator and destroyer, giver and negator, he who dupes others, and who is always duped himself.

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    Identity theft for instance...

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    What's wrong with spending money on defense (although I'm not in favor of big retirement packages etc)? Some of you people live in a figgin bubble...don't you realize that there are nations around the world who have cruel leaders who destroy the lives of human beings in genocides, etc. You might say we do the same indirectly, but we don't have as lax morals as some other places. You live in better economic circumstances and have choices that many people don't have right now.

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    I don't mind supporting people who are in hard times. Taxes, good.

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    Oh, I see you're dealing with far-right already, Ashton. Cool.

    Although better post a vid showing Herr Hoppe inviting Volkmar Weiss giving speeches about racial inferiority. A bonus treat would be posting what Rothbard had to say about the Objectivists that Jim is fan of.
    Last edited by Absurd; 05-27-2013 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    There's white and then theres albino like the Scottish.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQlZweKNBjo

    Blue is the new white etc

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    *shrugs*

    Then present some alternatives wise guy
    There are a few ideas out there (protection agencies, an extension of the insurance industry, kritarchy, etc), but their discussion wouldn't be germane to the topic of taxation being equatable to extortion. Besides, it's difficult to accurately predict what a market on justice would truly resemble since it would arise spontaneously, and be determined by trial-and-error in the market process.

    In short, I have no idea what the alternative might look like. The details are irrelevant anyway, the market has demonstrated it's efficiency in nearly every capacity where laissez-faire has been permitted to flourish. Through inductive reasoning, one can conclude that the same general principles of economics would apply to any trade where scarcity is present. It may not be a perfect solution, but I'm convinced it would be the most utilitarian of options, and mitigate the most harmful miscarriages of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I like your avatar.
    Thank you!
    Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 05-28-2013 at 08:17 AM. Reason: stupid typos

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    Taxation is not theft, much like capitalist use of labor to produce profit which is not distributed to the workers is not theft. What do business owners do, take all of the worker's production in exchange for a fixed amount that is likely less than actual production. It's really no different, all organizations take some of the surplus and/or the production of individuals within it's sphere of influence.

    Thinking in term of theft and exploitation is moral rhetoric concerning something that happens naturally without any intervention of state/business/organization. It is simply a product of power and control which is exerted by organizations on individuals within that organization's sphere of influence. There are certainly exploitative organizations but even non-exploitative organizations need to take a portion of the production of the individuals within that organization as administration cost or as a product to sell.

    You want to avoid this "theft"? I'm pretty sure it's thermodynamically and physically impossible, and the only mechanism in which we are protected from this theft is thru some sort of economic obfuscation about the underlying physical events occurring.

    You want a society/system that doesn't take a portion of the production of its constituents? Fantasy land... Nature is taxing me right now, it's eating my ice cream so I can type this up. I'm going to have to eat again soon. Humans developed these organizing systems largely to protect, prevent and obfuscate the effects of physical problems which don't go away magically once you get rid of these organizing system.

    The no tax movement isn't interested in freedom, but rather the dissolving of the mechanism of physical protection for select members of society while maintaining their own. Ultimately what will happen for many of these individuals is that they will instead dissolve many of these physical protection mechanisms for themselves and leave themselves unprotected against the natural forces which have troubled man and mankind since the beginning of civilization. Then it all turns to shit when a tornado, hurricane, earthquake levels it all down.

    I don't think anyone likes taxes but it's not avoidable in some ways, either economically or physically. What society needs is for more progressive taxation vs regressive taxation, however most of the advocates for less taxes seek actually more regressive taxes.

    http://www.marketplace.org/topics/el...eys-47-comment

    The last US election's 47% moment is basically the gist of almost all anti-tax rhetoric. Most of the suggested policy would in fact raise the tax rate for this 47% via some sort of flat regressive mechanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    The details are irrelevant anyway, the market has demonstrated it's efficiency in nearly every capacity where laissez-faire has been permitted to flourish.
    In Chile with a Central Bank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    my mom actually did this
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    my mom actually did this
    Unfortunately, the suggested solution to this existential problem for most of the anti-tax groups is to tax the poor more and the rich less.

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    Hkkmr should volunteer to pay more tax. He's all for tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Likening taxation to entropy is an obscenely false analogy. Might as well claim rape is a natural process of the physical universe too while you're at it.
    Actually rape is a natural occurring phenomena of the physical universe, but an extremely undesired one for human civilizations.

    http://animalsbehavingbadly.blogspot...r-huggers.html Raping otters for example...

    And making the analogy of various economic forces and many of the problems of society is like entropy is definitely a way to look at this problem and often a constructive one.

    But stop trying to put words in my mouth or comparing taxation to rape, that's just a stupid straw-man you're pulling out to make this topic retarded. Taxation is nothing like rape, and trying to put these words in my mouth, by comparing taxation to something as heinous as rape is stupid and shows just how degenerate your moral thinking is. In fact, the equivilance of taxation to heinous crimes against humanity is exactly what I propose is not the case.

    This is the problem of the anti-tax rhetoric, individuals try to compare taxation to rape, murder, theft, etc. When oftentimes, taxation is nothing like rape, murder, theft but more akin to the paying of a bill for services provided. Unfortunately, ofttimes the generations before us create debts which have to eventually paid by someone of a future generation. And force become the means for debt collection. People are often simply placed in a world which they had very little hand in creating, but the solution is harder than simple abolition.

    However, there are times when taxation is onerous and undesired, especially when it's regressive taxation which keep large segments of the population in servitude. But this doesn't seem to be the concern of the anti-tax groups, their concerns seem to want to create even more onerous conditions for the already disenfranchised.

    Anyways, given that I pay 40+% taxes with most of it taxable, and people much much richer than me pay far less with most of it protected. I know how I want to the system to be more equal and that's with people making far more than me paying more and the individuals with equal/less paying less or the same. I'm not a freeloader nor am I disenfranchised, I'm ok with paying for some benefits, but I want to see other people pay their share as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Unfortunately, ofttimes the generations before us create debts which have to eventually paid by someone of a future generation.
    None of that makes taxes acceptable. That is akin to accepting slavery because your dad was a slave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    None of that makes taxes acceptable. That is akin to accepting slavery because your dad was a slave.
    Stop comparing taxation to rape/murder/slavery/theft.

    You know what's slavery, working for less then 1 dollar a day.

    Getting paid 20k a year and paying some taxes isn't slavery.

    GTFO with that bullshit.

    You know what's slavery, really bad wages, no social safety, working for pennies because the alternative is death by starvation.

    This kind of hyperbolic 1st world pretension to minor problems is appalling.

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    Actually, it is. Considering that you don't have any other option but to pay, or go to jail. It's goes as far as taxing you when you're practically living elsewhere. That is not slavery?

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Actually, it is. Considering that you don't have any other option but to pay, or go to jail. It's goes as far as taxing you when you're practically living elsewhere. That is not slavery?
    Why don't you go somewhere were you don't pay taxes then if it is such a big deal to you.

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    TIM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Why don't you go somewhere were you don't pay taxes then if it is such a big deal to you.
    I'm already there. Never paid taxes and hopefully never will. I'm still faced with overpriced fines and such but that's another topic.

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