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Thread: INTp skeptical of ESFps

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    Default INTp skeptical of ESFps

    I have a very good ILI friend who is struggling to find someone to date. He rarely goes anywhere, and has focused his dating efforts into a dating website. I have talked to him a lot about the sorts of traits he is looking for in a woman. Most of what he wants points to EII or ESI. I know those types aren't a terrible match for him. Still, I have tried to talk to him about SEEs, especially since he never goes out of the house and often seems to lack the will to do anything. However, he seems very turned off by anyone who I point out as exhibiting SEE traits.

    He is only gauging people by a stupid photo and profile, so I doubt he can really get a sense of what it would be like to be around an SEE. I am wondering if there are any ILIs here that may have been unimpressed by SEEs at first, and then later came around. Can you talk about what changed your mind? And, have any of you ILI males landed an SEE female? Did she go after you, or what?

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    Some people don't like SEEs; or they prefer to enjoy SEEs at a distance rather than in their bed or at home.

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    rahmyn's Avatar
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    You are pretty much stating the obvious. Got anything else?

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    Nope, I'm not in the business of giving people carrots when they want peas. Nor am I in the business of believing that duality is a love potion.

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    I see a lot of ILI-ESI couples around. Both types may sometimes not be very attracted by their rather brash, loud and boisterous "duals" (I don't understand how that can be possible, but hey...)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Nope, I'm not in the business of giving people carrots when they want peas. Nor am I in the business of believing that duality is a love potion.
    Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I'm not really trying to force feed him peas. I'm more like, "Hey... maybe you should try peas and see what you think." And he's like, "Peas don't look good." And I'm all, "Yeah. But maybe you'd like how they taste. Then again, maybe not. Seems like carrots aren't that satisfying to you." That might just be me being a friend. He might not like them. Whatever. I never made mention of duality being some love potion answer to his problems.

    I am really curious, though, about ILIs coming to find SEEs attractive. The ILIs I know are intellectual snobs, and tend to look down on people who are not very cerebral, and on extraversion in general.

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    What age is your friend? Maybe you could suggest he could live a little and try people he thinks he may not necessarily like, it's not the end of the world, just move on to the next target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    What age is your friend? Maybe you could suggest he could live a little and try people he thinks he may not necessarily like, it's not the end of the world, just move on to the next target.
    I think he's 26. Yeah, I agree. I pretty much said that to him last night.

    I asked him why he is using the dating site he is using, and he said that it matches people up mathematically, according to the way they respond to certain questions. For kicks, I signed up and answered a bunch of questions. The result was that he and I are only 12% suitable to be friends. I pointed this out humorously, thinking it would show him that the site was stupid. He then replied that we had both changed a lot since we'd become friends, and might not be friends if we met now. I guess he really believes in the site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I'd suggest perhaps inviting him out more to do things. Go to a party or something. Hang out with friends & other people. Get away from the television, video games, internet, or whatever else is causing him to stay cooped up in the house all day in a sheltered reality.
    Agreed. He lives across the country, so there is not much I can do from here. But I did ask him to go on a road trip with me this summer. I'm looking forward to it, but I know it is going to be super draining. I will have to muster up a lot of Se and Fi. It sucks being the flexible one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I think he's 26. Yeah, I agree. I pretty much said that to him last night.

    I asked him why he is using the dating site he is using, and he said that it matches people up mathematically, according to the way they respond to certain questions. For kicks, I signed up and answered a bunch of questions. The result was that he and I are only 12% suitable to be friends. I pointed this out humorously, thinking it would show him that the site was stupid. He then replied that we had both changed a lot since we'd become friends, and might not be friends if we met now. I guess he really believes in the site.
    Most dating sites try to match people based on their interests, something socionics doesn't code for.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    difficult to have a successful relationship with.
    C'mon now, you could define 80% of people as being that way.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I have a very good ILI friend who is struggling to find someone to date. He rarely goes anywhere, and has focused his dating efforts into a dating website. I have talked to him a lot about the sorts of traits he is looking for in a woman. Most of what he wants points to EII or ESI. I know those types aren't a terrible match for him. Still, I have tried to talk to him about SEEs, especially since he never goes out of the house and often seems to lack the will to do anything. However, he seems very turned off by anyone who I point out as exhibiting SEE traits.

    He is only gauging people by a stupid photo and profile, so I doubt he can really get a sense of what it would be like to be around an SEE. I am wondering if there are any ILIs here that may have been unimpressed by SEEs at first, and then later came around. Can you talk about what changed your mind? And, have any of you ILI males landed an SEE female? Did she go after you, or what?
    I would make friends with an SEE and then introduce them via a casual hangout. It will probably be easier than trying to get him to open up his interests. Sometimes people can be stubborn in that way, and the only course then is to present them with an alternative rather than to get them to accept that one exists. As far as the intellectual snobbery goes, just find him someone who can challenge him mentally. If that isn't possible, he will probably still respond to and respect Se regardless of what he feels about that person's intellectual qualities. Of course this is all theoretical and perhaps the best thing to do would be to find him an intelligent girl who is positive, open minded, and outgoing which sounds like is what he really needs.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    What I'm getting from this is this guy's so called "friend" being on a campaign to change him.

    But why? Why do you feel the need to judge this person's preferences so harshly that the only solution is to bombard him with his psychological opposite? Is it not possible that he likes what he likes, and that is okay? There's nothing wrong with being a homebody. There's nothing wrong with being 26 and not having an SO. If your ideas are in his best interest, that's great, but it doesn't sound like they are actually in his INTEREST. How about really listening to what he *wants* in a relationship? After all, he's the person who is going to BE in said relationship.
    The guy is a recluse who has given his dating power to an online website. If he knew what he was into, he wouldn't be using algorithms to determine what dates he goes on. I don't think there is anything wrong with attempting to expand his interests. The OP isn't even being pushy about it.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    I thought SEIs sounded boring and lame before I actually met and started interacting with a couple. Pretty much anyone I describe a dual to just doesn't find it very appealing, and "not their type". /shrug

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    I don’t find relationships to be a healthy main priority. I get really annoyed when people try to force them on me, and I hate being told what to do.It my life is. I’m pretty cynical there …

    My friends always wanting me to meet their girlfriends…I’m like Sherlock Holmes about it.



    And I'm skeptical of everyone until I get to know them better -_-
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Lots of my Idents are cool, lots of them are dickheads, and once, the only thing keeping me from knocking this pain-in-the-ass Fi-SEE 6w7 guy the fuck out was a thin and angled strip of metal positioned between my arms' reach and his stupid face. Duals rules, ILI + ESI rules, LIE + SEE rules, lots of other shit rules, it's really about the people involved. I understood my Ident in that instance perfectly well. Enneagram's also cool, and cooler still is that the stuff that fits perfectly on Enneagram makes things come apart at least a little bit on Socionics and vice-versa, suggesting that there's just different kinds of things that rule in different ways instead of some dumb ideal of perfection to strive for.

    As for me, there's a fucking severe ILI drought up in here like bad. SEEs I know; giant Fi-SEE 8w9 who's big, warm, friendly, and me and him get on great, ran across a hallway and chest bumped into each other after we hulked out our arm and chest muscles, poor dude doubled over a bit because I'm like made of bricks or some shit and I got an "I'm gonna kick your ass!" out of him which I laughed to; shitspazzing Se-SEE 7w6s everywhere who, just, there's something noisy and cluttered about the way they roll or something, and I get the impression that they're just trying to take a tinkle on my leg and run off afterwards, and I'm like what? Haha I just wanna hold them still or something and like polarize ther mojo, fucking scattered! A few Fi-SEE 6 grrlz that were cool, kinda rigid in this odd way though, which I found mostly amusing and sometimes a little irritating. LIEs I knew were all somewhere between 7w6 and 8w9, we always like pump each other up and it's indescribable and it fucking rules! Like we become instantly unstoppable. ESIs, I ran into either 6s or anything from 9 to 1. Gonna go into how the 6s seem more "adaptable" or whatever, and the 9s and 1s it's like trying to push a fucking wall of lead, but I'm on the toilet again, need to shower, wanna play drums, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    What I'm getting from this is this guy's so called "friend" being on a campaign to change him.

    But why? Why do you feel the need to judge this person's preferences so harshly that the only solution is to bombard him with his psychological opposite?
    Where did I say "only solution"? Where do you get "bombard"?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    I donít find relationships to be a healthy main priority. I get really annoyed when people try to force them on me, and I hate being told what to do.
    Y'all seem to jump to all kinds of conclusions about me forcing something on him. Not sure why. For the record he asked me for my help and opinion. I don't offer up any advice for him unless he asks. I have known him for 12 years and I have a pretty good view on what might be good to try to help him. Does that mean I claim to know for sure? No.

    I appreciate your responses, but read carefully people! I actually never say anything about trying to continue to turn him on to SEEs. I was asking the original question in an attempt to understand ILIs attraction to SEEs. My hidden agenda is to understand. That is often my goal without needing to manipulate people based on that understanding.

    More pertinent info on my ILI friend: I am his only friend. He doesn't talk to anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    However, he seems very turned off by anyone who I point out as exhibiting SEE traits.
    What are the traits that these SEEs exhibit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    Where did I say "only solution"? Where do you get "bombard"?



    Y'all seem to jump to all kinds of conclusions about me forcing something on him. Not sure why. For the record he asked me for my help and opinion. I don't offer up any advice for him unless he asks. I have known him for 12 years and I have a pretty good view on what might be good to try to help him. Does that mean I claim to know for sure? No.

    I appreciate your responses, but read carefully people! I actually never say anything about trying to continue to turn him on to SEEs. I was asking the original question in an attempt to understand ILIs attraction to SEEs. My hidden agenda is to understand. That is often my goal without needing to manipulate people based on that understanding.

    More pertinent info on my ILI friend: I am his only friend. He doesn't talk to anyone else.
    I don’t recall you stating that he asked for your help in the OP and my initial impression of your view of how he lives his life is negative and judgmental.
    Anyway, you asked for ILI feedback and I gave you mine; not your friend’s …Perhaps I have my own friends that attempt to set me up with people I don’t care to go out with?

    I answered you fairly; I’m skeptical of everyone at first, regardless of type …
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    What are the traits that these SEEs exhibit?

    Good question. Answer is below. Just to be clear, I didn't actually describe the traits to him. I was more pointing out people whose dating profiles seemed relatively more SEE-ish to me. I was basically going off of my intuitive feel for them which could have been wrong.

    The people I pointed out tended to seem extraverted, physically adventurous, inquisitive, socially conscious, confident, dominant, grounded, fun-loving, often referred to how they feel about things in self reflexive terms, political, optimistic, etc.

    He does seem very attracted to behaviors one might commonly associate with Fi. It seems to be the Se (and extraversion in general) that puts him off. As an IEI, I find Se incredibly attractive in person, but not so much in text. I have wondered if he might feel the same way. I didn't even think about finding SLE types attractive until I opened my mind to it. That doesn't mean I am going to push him toward an SEE, though. I am just trying to understand him better.

    Before all of this began, I asked him what he found attractive, and he said he wasn't sure. And then he thought about it, and a couple of the things he mentioned was someone "subdued" and "mysterious".

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    I don’t recall you stating that he asked for your help in the OP and my initial impression of your view of how he lives his life is negative and judgmental.
    Yeah, you're right. I didn't say that. Perhaps I should have been up front with that.

    It gives me the sweats to post on these boards, which sucks because I fucking love thinking about and discussing socionics. I feel like I have to cover my ass at every angle, or someone is going to tear me apart, or take the post on some giant tangent that picks apart one small detail of what I am saying. I actually appreciate the difficulty and the striving for accuracy and truth and everything. But it's also irritating to spend so much energy trying to phrase my questions in ways that take into account all of the different crappy things people might assume or project into it. It would be awesome if people just asked instead of assumed.

    Then again, maybe I need to learn to communicate better.

    Also (and this isn't directed at you), I don't get why some people respond with what is essentially "You are being stupid and I don't care to answer you." Why bother?

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    Marshmallow Foru-m chriscorey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    Yeah, you're right. I didn't say that. Perhaps I should have been up front with that.

    It gives me the sweats to post on these boards, which sucks because I fucking love thinking about and discussing socionics. I feel like I have to cover my ass at every angle, or someone is going to tear me apart, or take the post on some giant tangent that picks apart one small detail of what I am saying. I actually appreciate the difficulty and the striving for accuracy and truth and everything. But it's also irritating to spend so much energy trying to phrase my questions in ways that take into account all of the different crappy things people might assume or project into it. It would be awesome if people just asked instead of assumed.

    Then again, maybe I need to learn to communicate better.

    Also (and this isn't directed at you), I don't get why some people respond with what is essentially "You are being stupid and I don't care to answer you." Why bother?
    That’s no problem. I would cease to worry about what people on a public forum are thinking about you when you post. It’s unnecessary added stress to your life and over whom? Nobody important …

    I have no problem with SEEs IRL, but I don’t have problems with any type IRL, honestly. I have one male SEE friend IRL, but he’s gay, so I’ve never dated him. We do find each other amusing … At first he judged me rather harshly, and then later became kind of fascinated with me. He’s great! I sometimes get annoyed with him because he’s pushy, but he means well.

    I hope that was more helpful.
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Let's take this slow. For my sake. Because you make my head ache. (rhyme)

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    why is it so important to set him up with someone so seemingly against his (stated) preferences?
    It's not "so important" to do this. I'm not setting him up. He asked me for my opinion about his dating pursuits. I responded with an idea I thought my be helpful to him. I never pushed it. When he mentioned that he didn't find those SEE-like people attractive, I didn't say anything. I still haven't. Didn't have any intention to do anything in particular. Just information gathering.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    *Therapy* is viable if you want to get him out of his seclusion - a relationship is not. It is not going to magically change his personality.
    Not sure how much time you've spent with him, but from knowing him for nearly half of his life, I would argue that a relationship is MUCH more viable than therapy to get him out of seclusion in this particular individual's case. I base this on past experience with him. However, I don't have any opinion on whether or not a relationship is right for him right now. That is something he is going for out of his own volition. I don't apply pressure on this dude to do anything. I don't know where you are getting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    And it does not sound like he enjoys spending time with the "extraverted, physically adventurous, inquisitive, socially conscious, etc" individual.
    I don't think he knows if he likes it. He doesn't do it. He doesn't interact with people much at all. He might see people like this in the grocery store, or running errands, but that's about it. Maybe he thinks he wouldn't like it. Maybe he actually wouldn't like it. I don't fucking know. I don't see anything wrong with saying to him (when he asks my advice) "Hey, check out these folks... what do you think?" Which is basically all that I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Lol, Socionics seys your hidden agenda is to understand, so it shall be. And then you make a thread attempting to justify a theoretical concept because it doesn't seem to fit with your friend's preferences. Socionics is brokennnnn
    I think socionics is interesting because it very often resonates with the way I experience things. Before I knew about socionics, I knew that I was continually drawn to trying to understand. Obsessively. I didn't adopt that once I learned about socionics. I don't know if socionics is broken or not. Since I am (as far as I am concerned) neither an ILI or an SEE, and cannot confirm through my own experience the supposed compatibility of ILI and SEE, I decided to ask on the forum... to see if some other people could relate their experiences. I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I am wondering if there are any ILIs here that may have been unimpressed by SEEs at first, and then later came around.
    Maybe the answer is, "No. No, there are no ILIs that feel that way." Or, perhaps "Yes, but I am this way with every type." I was curious for ILIs to say more about their personal experiences with SEEs. And curious about how they may have felt about SEEs initially. My interaction with my friend was something that sparked my desire to know more about this. Not to manipulate him. Just my own curiosity. I find ILI and SEE to be a funky but interesting pairing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    That’s no problem. I would cease to worry about what people on a public forum are thinking about you when you post. It’s unnecessary added stress to your life and over whom? Nobody important …
    Thanks, and yes this was more helpful to me.

    As far as I can tell, I'm not so much concerned about what the person thinks of me personally. I just have a really hard time articulating my thoughts in general, and that struggle is made more difficult here. Probably good for me to keep trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    It gives me the sweats to post on these boards, which sucks because I fucking love thinking about and discussing socionics. I feel like I have to cover my ass at every angle, or someone is going to tear me apart, or take the post on some giant tangent that picks apart one small detail of what I am saying. I actually appreciate the difficulty and the striving for accuracy and truth and everything. But it's also irritating to spend so much energy trying to phrase my questions in ways that take into account all of the different crappy things people might assume or project into it. It would be awesome if people just asked instead of assumed.

    Then again, maybe I need to learn to communicate better.
    Welcome to t16t. Even if you came in like "lol I have no idea what i'm doing. I read this means this, does it actually mean that? I'm not sure and just want to learn", you'd probably get flamed at and then 2+ people would start arguing in the comments and totally ignore your question right after anyone starts trying to answer in an attempt to correct each other and prove each other wrong. We're less into "discussing" and more into bickering.

    I think we don't get enough new people, so the older people don't have anything new to bring to the table and just start ragging on each other because there's nothing else to do, and socionics plays in because that's really the only thing anyone here actually has in common with anyone else who is here. For better or worse, it's not you.

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    If you wish to obtain a more theoretical and socionics-like explanation of what happens with these intro-intro pairings, well, activity partners share a large number of reinin dichotomies, larger than duals, thus their general life outlook tends to resonate much better when compared with what your duals often have as life outlook.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Socionics is dead. Long live Socionics v2.

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    Seeing as how the ILI is the type most disposed to being critical of anything outside of itself, i dont doubt that showing them a picture led them to side with the negative. You gotta get them around SEEs. Or more pragmatically speaking, you gotta get SEEs around them.

    But also, if you're his only friend you're doing the right thing. He needs someone to give him a kick in the ass.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Hmm, if he doesn't see, experience what he's missing, he'll never know.

    Show him movies (or cartoons if he's into anime) with SEE characters. Discuss his impressions and exploit a lack of evidence and speculation on his part when he comes up with any objections. The more he insist the bigger your smile should be, let him talk and assert yourself with short sentences like pulling out of ass and physical gestures that say bullshit. Plan the evening that it ends up that you will literally pull him by the hand and drag him out. Set him up with a SEE, but preplan it, she should know, perhaps be in on it. You should either happen to end up with the SEE you want to hook him up with, with interesting activities along the way, or be tugging him by the hand keeping him in the dark. Either way his excitement should be building up. He should be curious, reluctant and interested the entire time. You should be able to feel moments where is undercover excited. Like, he's objecting, but really he wants it. When you sense that, that's a good time to give him a jolt, show force, really get in his face, make him submit. Them just as forcefully continue being cute and enigmatic. People want novel experiences but they also want safety. You being there should give him that. You should be distancing yourself slowly during the interaction with the SEE. The SEE will take matters into their own hands after a while, at that point you should freely walk away. They way to get the SEE to go with it, ask her if she wants to do something wild, tell her you have this supper cute, nerdy friend and does she want to give him a swift kick in the ass. Make her feel she is being impulsive and in control. To get the appearance of impulsive, a good way is to make the conversation short. But you being IEI that shouldn't be necessary, she should have enough of a good mood by your presence (your unconscious IEI presence) and asking her should be enough. But a person over the internet might not, if you go that way.

    This procedure is entirely a guess on my part based solely on socionics. It could completely not work or backfire. It's basically a mental exercise and more or less how I'd do it. Although I've personally never tried it, simply pulling people by the hand tends to work for me. You can sense clearly their reluctance and excitement and that they want you to grab them by the hand and do it. And you slowly get in their face and make them uncomfortable, squirming with excitement. I find that, simply, gwahhh, so fucking hot. I feel like I've won a prize and I want to rip into it right away. With my teeth. I imagine that's how wolfs feel when they kill something.

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    Honestly, the more root problem I sense here is that he's an introvert who feels uncomfortable in a society that mostly values extroversion. I also sense that if he were to show somebody who he was, he would feel like he would get punched in the face for it, so that just makes him hide more. While some shyness and seclusion is a natural part of somebody's personality, it sounds like maybe it's making him feel depressed and lonely.

    I would try to raise his self confidence level as a friend by just encouraging him to hang around people and feel comfortable with them until possibly he does find somebody he clicks with. It's a sad cold cruel world out there, sometimes the kindest and best people do not find anybody they really get along with and sometimes the hugest assholes always get what they want. It really does blow but... even if he doesn't find a mate , encourage him to build his confidence more by learning how to get outside of himself, and even if he gets a slushee thrown on his face for the times that he comes out of the closet so to speak , well - he will learn who to trust and who not to more slowly over time.

    A bit of background here: I remember when I went on my first date. I was like 22 or 23 years old about. I was scared to death. But my fear of being lonely and empty was overriding my fear to interact with people and just TRY to form a connection. I'm glad that I forced myself to give the person a chance, because it was a good relationship over-all even if it didn't work out in the end. I wouldn't overanalyze things to death here, he just seems to be struggling extra hard because his poor brain is very introverted - which is something I empathisize strongly with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I have a very good ILI friend who is struggling to find someone to date. He rarely goes anywhere, and has focused his dating efforts into a dating website. I have talked to him a lot about the sorts of traits he is looking for in a woman. Most of what he wants points to EII or ESI. I know those types aren't a terrible match for him. Still, I have tried to talk to him about SEEs, especially since he never goes out of the house and often seems to lack the will to do anything. However, he seems very turned off by anyone who I point out as exhibiting SEE traits.

    He is only gauging people by a stupid photo and profile, so I doubt he can really get a sense of what it would be like to be around an SEE. I am wondering if there are any ILIs here that may have been unimpressed by SEEs at first, and then later came around. Can you talk about what changed your mind? And, have any of you ILI males landed an SEE female? Did she go after you, or what?
    Duals tend to ignore each other at first, especially if said person has had no experience with duals growing up. Duals can appear so compleatly diffrent from an outside point of view, so its only natural to have a bit of an aversion to them. Before I knew about socionics, I found a lot of SLEs off putting and would never have figured that we'd get along so well, as they're often the loud popular jock type and I'm this quiet little artist girl. But nope, turns out we usually have the same goofy ass crude sense of humor and we connect very well.

    Also, ILI's tend to be skeptics in general, so this really comes as no surprise.
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    Ignore Negativist dichotomy, demand Positivism!

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    Relying on algorithms to determine compatibility--- sounds like he needs more help than on dating. Human interactions on a macro scale can be predicted but individual relationships not so much. Instead of focusing on dating, I would get him out of the house. Dating sites set up the meeting then it becomes up to the individuals to make it work. Last i checked people aren't two dimensional. He's kidding himself if he thinks it'll work out in the long run just by those calculations alone. ( I am assuming he wants a LTR here) His reliance on those tell me there's something more going on underneath the surface.

    Establish some sense first before feeding him his veggies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Some people don't like SEEs; or they prefer to enjoy SEEs at a distance rather than in their bed or at home.
    I have been complaining about the two SEEs in my life, but I actually do like them very much. Its just I don't want to live with one, make daily decisions with one, depend on one except occasionally, be on the receiving end of what they do or decide, or be on a work team where we'd have to make crucial decisions together. But to be around with socially and appreciate them for themselves, I am just great with that.

    I just had to say that.

    Oh, and maybe its actually exactly like that second part of what you said, Jim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I have been complaining about the two SEEs in my life, but I actually do like them very much. Its just I don't want to live with one, make daily decisions with one, depend on one except occasionally, be on the receiving end of what they do or decide, or be on a work team where we'd have to make crucial decisions together. But to be around with socially and appreciate them for themselves, I am just great with that.

    I just had to say that.

    Oh, and maybe its actually exactly like that second part of what you said, Jim.
    I can imagine that having two fairly positivist yet erratic decision making types would find it difficult to interact in such close proximity. No-one knows best like an IEE or an SEE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I can imagine that having two fairly positivist yet erratic decision making types would find it difficult to interact in such close proximity. No-one knows best like an IEE or an SEE.
    Interesting. Can you explain in what way our types are positivist and erratic decision-makers? It is true that both SEEs now in my life, like me, are pretty positive types and our decision making is erratic, though in different ways.I actually get things done and live responsibly (even though I go about things round-about a lot) and these other two - I'd say they live more "half-responsibly". Like with big BIG gaps!

    I would just like to understand the thought or theory behind what you said. Thanks.

    Last summer I realized I could not have my boyfriend's grown daughter in my everyday life, and now I am realizing that having my Mom's SEE caregiver in my everyday life has been exhausting, and its too much of this SEE in my life. I wonder since I ahve had the same sort of reaction to the two if its not relation-type related....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Interesting. Can you explain in what way our types are positivist and erratic decision-makers? It is true that both SEEs now in my life, like me, are pretty positive types and our decision making is erratic, though in different ways.I actually get things done and live responsibly (even though I go about things round-about a lot) and these other two - I'd say they live more "half-responsibly". Like with big BIG gaps!

    I would just like to understand the thought or theory behind what you said. Thanks.

    Last summer I realized I could not have my boyfriend's grown daughter in my everyday life, and now I am realizing that having my Mom's SEE caregiver in my everyday life has been exhausting, and its too much of this SEE in my life. I wonder since I ahve had the same sort of reaction to the two if its not relation-type related....
    Well there are a few aspects based on my experience.

    a) Both types are very protective of their personal space but in different and contradictory ways, for example SEEs like their environment to be 'just so' in terms of design and functionality. IEEs like their environment to be showered with their sentimental goodies.

    b) Both IEEs and SEEs are spontaneous decision makers often with little forewarning. 'I want to do this now!' was originally said by an ESFp or ENFp type. Since they are used to having things their way and they interpret situations through a very different perceptive lense I would expect both be confused by the others 'irrational' behaviour and they wouldn't understand why such bad decision making has to effect them.

    c) Both types are not very good at communicating clearly & discretely. It seems to be the only reason why they like spending time with IPs, 'oh my now I can talk and ask lots and lots of questions and the IP can give me a discrete 2-3 sentence answer in a bow! Yay'. However I can imagine that the more the other talks the more they will talk over each other leading to confusion since they are normally used to being able to talk at will.

    d) I can imagine that some IEEs would find SEEs very domineering in their close environment, whereas SEEs would find IEEs uninspiringly unwilling to talk about issues and bring them to a resolution (Se blocked Fi versus Ne blocked Fi).

    e) This would lead into problems employee-employer or parent-child relationships. Employee-employer and parent-child relationships are not about being friends (sorry delta-NFs) and are instead about appropriate compromises and boundary setting. SEEs tend to appreciate this better than IEEs as they are willing to be fractuous, but this can be highly offensive to IEEs who don't understand why the SEE wouldn't want to work 16 hours with their child after all they are part of the family now aren't they? (no they aren't, it's a job). I imagine both would take measures and courtesies that they expect are just 'normal' and should be appreciated by the other party: 'oh I'm heading out because of this.. What do you mean this is a problem? Why are you being so incredibly unreasonable?'. This could lead to some unusual back-biting.

    Cooler heads with a more direct and succinct communication style would prevail better in brokering compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    Honestly, the more root problem I sense here is that he's an introvert who feels uncomfortable in a society that mostly values extroversion. I also sense that if he were to show somebody who he was, he would feel like he would get punched in the face for it, so that just makes him hide more. While some shyness and seclusion is a natural part of somebody's personality, it sounds like maybe it's making him feel depressed and lonely.

    I would try to raise his self confidence level as a friend by just encouraging him to hang around people and feel comfortable with them until possibly he does find somebody he clicks with. It's a sad cold cruel world out there, sometimes the kindest and best people do not find anybody they really get along with and sometimes the hugest assholes always get what they want. It really does blow but... even if he doesn't find a mate , encourage him to build his confidence more by learning how to get outside of himself, and even if he gets a slushee thrown on his face for the times that he comes out of the closet so to speak , well - he will learn who to trust and who not to more slowly over time.

    A bit of background here: I remember when I went on my first date. I was like 22 or 23 years old about. I was scared to death. But my fear of being lonely and empty was overriding my fear to interact with people and just TRY to form a connection. I'm glad that I forced myself to give the person a chance, because it was a good relationship over-all even if it didn't work out in the end. I wouldn't overanalyze things to death here, he just seems to be struggling extra hard because his poor brain is very introverted - which is something I empathisize strongly with.
    That's actually great. I'd say it a bit more concisely though.

    You can't make anyone to love you, the only sure source of love in this life comes from yourself. Learn to love and take care of your own life. And by the time you manage to make it more attractive and fun it'll be just a matter of time to find someone who's willing to share it with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Well there are a few aspects based on my experience.

    a) Both types are very protective of their personal space but in different and contradictory ways, for example SEEs like their environment to be 'just so' in terms of design and functionality. IEEs like their environment to be showered with their sentimental goodies.
    True just I would say that I don't like visual clutter.. While many of my things are in some way sentimental, I like visual beauty and arrange things just so. SEE will arrange my things differently according to how she likes it - and I never like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    b) Both IEEs and SEEs are spontaneous decision makers often with little forewarning. 'I want to do this now!' was originally said by an ESFp or ENFp type. Since they are used to having things their way and they interpret situations through a very different perceptive lens I would expect both be confused by the others 'irrational' behaviour and they wouldn't understand why such bad decision making has to effect them.
    True, I am spontaneous, and will move to act now if a thing seems right. See is also spontaneous. I do see her decisions as "irrational" (and they are) and I think she finds my decisions confusing too. Which is probably why she ignores them...
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    c) Both types are not very good at communicating clearly & discretely. It seems to be the only reason why they like spending time with IPs, 'oh my now I can talk and ask lots and lots of questions and the IP can give me a discrete 2-3 sentence answer in a bow! Yay'. However I can imagine that the more the other talks the more they will talk over each other leading to confusion since they are normally used to being able to talk at will.
    LOL. I am not that chatty but I suppose sometimes I can be. I have found the 2 ILI guys I know in my life to be always easy to talk to though.

    I agree with what you said here, though not sure about the "asking" for me. I do sometimes do "asking" as conversation in the context of finding out what is of interest to a person so I can get to know them. But in the dichotomy of asking/declaring, ENFPs are "declaring". And too much "asking" can be annoying to us.

    My ISFJ mother is "Asking" and with her Alzheimers it means I am asked the same thing every 5 min.: "Do you live here? How long have you lived here? Where did everybody go?" To the last for humor I have a variety of answers, since I have not been able to figure out who "everybody" is yet: "They all got drunk and left... They are at the Merry-go-round... They were rude; I sent them home... They went out for coffee." But Mom's questions always seemed like harassing to me when I was growing up. My ESTP son is "Declaring", too, and gets irritated with her questions. Learning aobut Asking/Declaring was interesting to me and helped me understand. (Also learning I am Mom's "Supervisor" helped me realize I need to buffer my own annoyance because I may bother her more than she bothers me).

    My SLI is an "Asker", too. I realized that when we would make a meal and sit down together (often this is after hours of working together) and he immediately starts asking me one question after another. I realized he wants to talk, and this is how he does it. So I play. Only one time my mind rebelled against his "Asking"; my mind was overwhelmed with a problem that just came up and the questions seemed inane and disruptive. I explained, "I had a strong feeling-reaction to what happened today (with his SEE daughter) and I just need to be quiet and process my feelings."

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    d) I can imagine that some IEEs would find SEEs very domineering in their close environment, whereas SEEs would find IEEs uninspiring unwilling to talk about issues and bring them to a resolution (Se blocked Fi versus Ne blocked Fi).
    I don't know about the latter but I do find SEEs very domineering in close environment. Since I value peace and this disturbs it, I really, really don't like it. I don't think SEE gets who I am and it doesn't bother me. I feel she doesn't have the capacity to get me. I like when I am not needing anything from her and can just appreciate her for who she is. She is crazy to find another husband and she's both childlike and bold about the business, but I admire her single-minded tenacity and always truly hope she lands a nice ILI.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    e) This would lead into problems employee-employer or parent-child relationships. Employee-employer and parent-child relationships are not about being friends (sorry delta-NFs) and are instead about appropriate compromises and boundary setting. SEEs tend to appreciate this better than IEEs as they are willing to be fractuous, but this can be highly offensive to IEEs who don't understand why the SEE wouldn't want to work 16 hours with their child after all they are part of the family now aren't they? (no they aren't, it's a job). I imagine both would take measures and courtesies that they expect are just 'normal' and should be appreciated by the other party: 'oh I'm heading out because of this.. What do you mean this is a problem? Why are you being so incredibly unreasonable?'. This could lead to some unusual back-biting.
    Sounds rather like what we experience. Just not a good match.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Cooler heads with a more direct and succinct communication style would prevail better in brokering compromise.
    My communication is not direct and succinct naturally but I work very hard at it, having learned professionally a lot on this. However, my work at this involves me processing it internally completely before I speak, and I take too long to deal with things....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I have a very good ILI friend who is struggling to find someone to date. He rarely goes anywhere, and has focused his dating efforts into a dating website. I have talked to him a lot about the sorts of traits he is looking for in a woman. Most of what he wants points to EII or ESI. I know those types aren't a terrible match for him. Still, I have tried to talk to him about SEEs, especially since he never goes out of the house and often seems to lack the will to do anything. However, he seems very turned off by anyone who I point out as exhibiting SEE traits.

    He is only gauging people by a stupid photo and profile, so I doubt he can really get a sense of what it would be like to be around an SEE. I am wondering if there are any ILIs here that may have been unimpressed by SEEs at first, and then later came around. Can you talk about what changed your mind? And, have any of you ILI males landed an SEE female? Did she go after you, or what?
    He wouldn't want my type in reality, I assure you; he just wants it for superficial reasons.

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