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Thread: "I have little patience with indirectness"

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    Anna1921's Avatar
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    Default "I have little patience with indirectness."

    Recently witnessed an interaction where a woman (unknown type) called a guy (IEE) out for being passive aggressive. In her defense, she was right. In his defense, so what? It needn't have turned into a "thing."

    Her big gripe was that he was too indirect and didn't say what he meant, his actions didn't match his words and so he was, in her opinion, dishonest (which I suppose is technically true).

    I'd thought they might be SLI f - IEE m duals, and still think they might be. But this has me wondering, is indirectness/passive agressiveness and hatred thereof type related in some way?

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    Eh what's the situation? If I was sitting with my girlfriends parents I might be indirect about shagging their daughter, if mention it at all.

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    I don't think it's a specific situation, more of a general trend. This is him telling her he'll do such and such thing and then not following through, in her opinion because he never wanted to do it in the first place and was only saying he would to placate her in the moment. Her personal motto is ACTIONS NOT WORDS, so this kind of thing gets under her skin. She said he is always telling pretty words but with no "follow through" in real life.

    I should add, she is usually very direct herself and not always so tactful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna1921 View Post
    I don't think it's a specific situation, more of a general trend. This is him telling her he'll do such and such thing and then not following through, in her opinion because he never wanted to do it in the first place and was only saying he would to placate her in the moment. Her personal motto is ACTIONS NOT WORDS, so this kind of thing gets under her skin. She said he is always telling pretty words but with no "follow through" in real life.

    I should add, she is usually very direct herself and not always so tactful.
    Ah, I still don't know, duals can not get on as well. I don't think indirectness/passive agressive is necessarily a type related thing.

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    is anybody not bothered by someone behaving differently than what they say and not following through?

    as for indirectness, i suppose it generally bothers me. but it depends a lot on context. sometimes subtlety is nice and that can be indirect. i think people i know would describe me as kinda strict on it (my ex when asked to describe me once used my unwillingness to let him back out of what he was saying and insistence that he clarify as an example of my personality). but i can be indirect myself too. and sometimes im accused of being passive aggressive even though i usually don't see it that way.

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    I tend to dislike indirectness, but I also think that certain things are better left unsaid or said/done in an unobtrusive, less direct, manner.

    What I find repulsive and hard to tolerate is contradiction between words and actions, and inconsistency in words vs. actions dynamics.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna1921 View Post
    This is him telling her he'll do such and such thing and then not following through, in her opinion because he never wanted to do it in the first place and was only saying he would to placate her in the moment. Her personal motto is ACTIONS NOT WORDS, so this kind of thing gets under her skin. She said he is always telling pretty words but with no "follow through" in real life.
    Yeah, that kind of thing bothers me. And I'd react the same way.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    eh idk. I'm sometimes not as direct as I could be because I don't really like hurting other people's feelings. I know that no matter what happens or what is said, people are only going to remember how you made them feel...

    But there's a type of indirectness I don't like, and it's not really passive aggressiveness (my personal tolerance for that is fairly high), it's wishy washy back and forth ness. It's cute at first but then I get really annoyed.

    Anyways if one is too flippant, blunt and abrasive it sorta zaps all poetry and meaning out of the room as well so I like a balance I guess.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Um, passive aggressives are not Ep temperament, usually. I'd have to agree with Jet, I've seen all kinds of types be passive aggressive based on the situation or the person involved.

    But, inconsistency between words and actions can be Ep temp. While I think that IEE can sometimes be inconsistent, take my IEE friend who I reminded several times to send me the invite to her bday party, said she would, she did not. Eh, to me it looks inconsistent, but again, as Kim said, she may have forgotten.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-15-2013 at 03:59 AM.

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    Maritsa is not over-the-top crazy, usually.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Maritsa is not over-the-top crazy, usually.
    HAHA

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    Maybe the one being inconsistent was just pissed. Me, being Ij temp, I can be passive aggressive a lot of the time, and inconsistent when someone pisses me off because this is a way of me saying "you're not involved in my life any more so you don't need to know what goes on with me and you don't need to feel like you need to judge me. If you want to add one more 'Maritsa's bad in this way' to your effing list, then go ahead, I'll give it to you."

    ^ But see, that's a passive aggressive approach wrapped around looking/acting/being inconsistent on purpose. There's a lot of this in Dostoyevsky's writings esp in Brothers Karamasov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna1921 View Post
    I don't think it's a specific situation, more of a general trend. This is him telling her he'll do such and such thing and then not following through, in her opinion because he never wanted to do it in the first place and was only saying he would to placate her in the moment. Her personal motto is ACTIONS NOT WORDS, so this kind of thing gets under her skin. She said he is always telling pretty words but with no "follow through" in real life.

    I should add, she is usually very direct herself and not always so tactful.
    I am guilty of this, but I never intend not to follow through. I don't follow through because stuff gets in the way and I forget. I can't speak for other IEEs, but I know two others who tend to struggle with this, too. She shouldn't assume he didn't mean it, just that he is a ditz and needs a memo or two (I am not making excuses, but I really think she might be off with regards to his motivations).

    As for directness, I will always try to soften the blow when I have bad news for someone or be gentle in my criticism (unless I am on a Socionics forum).
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I am guilty of this, but I never intend not to follow through. I don't follow through because stuff gets in the way and I forget. I can't speak for other IEEs, but I know two others who tend to struggle with this, too. She shouldn't assume he didn't mean it, just that he is a ditz and needs a memo or two (I am not making excuses, but I really think she might be off with regards to his motivations).

    As for directness, I will always try to soften the blow when I have bad news for someone or be gentle in my criticism (unless I am on a Socionics forum).

    That makes sense;

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    I don't think it is type-related. I've seen some of the most "direct" types act passive-aggressively often. such as, being angry about one thing but actually pretending to be angry about another completely uninvolved thing. Pretending it's ok, when it's really not, and it comes out in a differently-related manner.

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    Whether it's a problem depends if the indirectness gets in the way of dealing with something, which it sounds like it does.
    Last edited by rat1; 05-15-2013 at 04:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna1921 View Post
    Her big gripe was that he was too indirect and didn't say what he meant, his actions didn't match his words and so he was, in her opinion, dishonest (which I suppose is technically true). I'd thought they might be SLI f - IEE m duals, and still think they might be. But this has me wondering, is indirectness/passive agressiveness and hatred thereof type related in some way?
    I wouldn't call what he's doing indirect or passive-aggressive per se, rather fickle and facetious.

    I've seen this kinds of scenarios happen between an ILE and an ESE. The ILE was very gregarious by nature. He would be telling stories or jokes almost non-stop, by which he would envelop himself with a shroud of words which didn't always match his subsequent actions. I used to compare him to squid because he too would change his outer 'colors' to fit into the conversation. The ESE took his words seriously and once he was proven otherwise would become enraged and yell at the ILE guy, even chase him around wielding whatever fell into his hands. Only to repeat this whole cycle later.

    I've also seen mentions of these kinds of disagreements in a couple of intertype descriptions, could be based on differences in sensing/intuition and rationality/irrationality:

    SEI-ILE: “When Don discloses to you the sky with diamonds, you need to clearly separate the sky and diamonds. When Don says: "it would be nice to visit the sauna" (unobtrusively), it means only "it wouldn’t be a bad idea to go to the sauna at some point in the distant future”. When Don speaks about the desired image of the future, it’s only a dream. Do not consider it to be a promise to do something!! I used to get upset with my Don for this, and also for how easily he trusts his “true friends”, his impracticality, and that he calls me irregularly.

    LSI-IEI: Over time, Maxim begins to feel disappointed in some of the illusory promises of his partner, since they often aren't backed up by any concrete justifications. Esenin's "mirages" are primarily intended for inspiration and assuaging of Zhukov, but Maxim doesn't recognize this and for a long period of time treats them as serious prospects. Even after being disappointed in the promises of his activator, Maxim, nevertheless, repeatedly gives in to the temptation and allows himself to be carried away by them.

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    Se/Ni extroverts are comfortable with directness and dishonesty. Unintentional and neurotic indirectness seems judicious, maybe intuitive.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ieist View Post
    Se/Ni extroverts are comfortable with directness and dishonesty. Unintentional and neurotic indirectness seems judicious, maybe intuitive.
    interesting.

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