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Thread: IEIs/INFps and aptitude in mathematics

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    rahmyn's Avatar
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    Default IEIs/INFps and aptitude in mathematics

    Hello,

    I'm new to this forum. I've been observing for a while, but have been hesitant to participate without a specific question. Something came to mind tonight that I wanted to share.

    I am wondering if there is any info out there (personal experience or theoretical) on why an IEI might be attracted to math. Though I work in arts education, and my background is in the arts, math has always come easily to me. Throughout school, I consistently did better in math classes with much less effort than English or Social Studies courses. This seems surprising since the stereotypical arts person is better at English than math. In 3rd grade, I recall getting an award for scoring higher than the 6th graders in math. In high school, I got a higher math SAT score than Verbal. I actually recall "studying" the math sections of the SAT practice book for fun. And when I went to take the test, it was in a math classroom, and I felt very soothed. Even as a very young girl (5 or 6 years old), I would have friends sleep over. As we lay there in the dark before bed, I would request that they give me math problems (simple addition) to do as I fell asleep.

    Is this an attraction that relates to the mobilizing function? From what I understand, the mobilizing function is weak... so I wonder why I would be good at it. I don't think I am good at all introverted logic stuff, though. So maybe it is a fluke.

    Thank you,

    Rahmyn

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Any type can be good at math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Any type can be good at math.
    I imagine that any type could be good at math. But I am wondering if there is anything about the make-up of IEIs that produces a special propensity.

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    Asian?!?
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Asian?!?
    I wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I imagine that any type could be good at math. But I am wondering if there is anything about the make-up of IEIs that produces a special propensity.
    nope

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    Define algorithm for me.


     
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    Define algorithm for me.

    Seems like an established organized logical process for solving problems efficiently. Te?

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    Define algorithm for me.

    Seems like an established organized logical process for solving problems efficiently. Te?
    so? math can be interpreted emotionally, or by pictures and images, doesn't necessarily have to be through thought out systems or methods.

    I am very good at math and I have no Te in sight, it's obvious because I miss actions around me and don't estimate things people by their behavior, I just don't watch and remember that stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    so? math can be interpreted emotionally, or by pictures and images, doesn't necessarily have to be through thought out systems or methods.

    I am very good at math and I have no Te in sight, it's obvious because I miss actions around me and don't estimate things people by their behavior, I just don't watch and remember that stuff.
    I thought the point he was making was that the focus of the math activity will lend itself to a particular function. This doesn't seem to contradict your opinion. I don't think he was saying that all math is algorithms and therefore Te.

    However, while I agree that someone from any type can be good at math, it seems likely that certain types are predisposed to enjoying math more than others. If anyone has anything to say about what IEIs might find enjoyable about it, I would be interested to hear. Particularly from another IEI.

    Maritsa, isn't Te your Suggestive function? I am confused because you said you have no Te in sight. Do you not subscribe to Model A?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post

    Maritsa, isn't Te your Suggestive function? I am confused because you said you have no Te in sight. Do you not subscribe to Model A?
    My base function is Fi, so I regularly repress Te. It's the opposite function of the STATIC and Feeling; you ideally can not be both Static and dynamic at the same time. I notice the tendency of Te repression quite often. It is suggestive when a Te type comes along and offers their program function, otherwise I'm not able to regularly produce this function.

    For example...

    I'm sitting at home now on a Sunday. As an activity, I know I have to go have Easter dinner at my parent's by 6pm; there are other things in the air for me to do, of which I am really scattered about atm and don't know which ones I should do. I could go to the Farmer's Market, grocery store, go look for new sheets (my old ones shrank), go pick up my nephew for the movies, go rent a movie, go see my niece at the hospital, all these activities hang in the air and because I'm not sure which one to do, I waste more time not doing any of them. I need a Te to come along and say "do these things."

    My dual cousin who is Te-LSE is quick at noticing what needs to be done when; she'll notice people and resources around her and will stop me, saying "Maritsa, what are you doing?" And I'm ready to do what she wants so I just stop and go to her and say "do you need me to get something done?" She'll say "yes, you get these things ready and I'll do this and we'll be set."

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    This thread

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    So my point is that any type can enjoy math; it's not type related. IEI may enjoy math for the same reason that other types who enjoy it will, because it's easy for them, it comes easily and they read that language well.

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    I have an IEI friend who is really into math and studies it in university. It's cute, though; when he describes it to me it always seems like he's more into the philosophical implications of "being a mathematician" than he is into the numbers and structures themselves.

    Also he is really bad at explaining math problems to me, it's like he's not much better at that than I am.

    I find it adorable lol.

    (but this is just one anecdote, I'm not saying it's always this way.)

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    Base Ni with Ti mobilizing. Arithmetic was super easy to do once the basics of what to do(Se) and the structure is explained. Ni just fills in the rest without effort.

    Every IEI i know has been top notch at arithmetic and eventually moved to excelling in english around geometry
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    i haven't noticed this particularly. i think math finds its way in wherever there is any level of conceptual abstraction involved, so it's not likely that the interest could be zeroed in on a specific function or type. also, as an e.g. see the breadth of different personalities being represented on this math-related youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/numberphile

    maybe it could be attributed to INXx > ENXx > others, but my ISTj friend is better at math than i am so there's that.

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    not type related, but thanks for the video @Saberstorm

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    i'm always a bit annoyed when people think along lines of "my eyes glaze over whenever i see math so it must be Ti", as if that kind of thought process doesn't occur in Ti types' brains too except with some other NT function being accused of being the culprit.

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    Rahmyn, what an excellent question. I am also an IEI who is quite technical (I am in my junior year of my mechanical engineering bachelors) and have often wondered why I am good at things like that.

    First off, socionics describes temperament, not intelligence or learning styles, although they may be correlated. I believe any person can learn practically anything given the right motivation and teacher, but rather than starting a discussion on what part of personal gifting is intrinsic to a person and what part is inspired by upbringing, let me instead relate my experience with a little bit of introspective commentary.

    Just so you know where I am at, I have completed through Calc 3 (multi variable calculus) and linear algebra.

    I liked math because I easily learned the patterns and reasons behind what is being taught. Math to me was a puzzle I could solve creatively as well as well as literally being the language of nature. I always understood that what I was learning was going to help me appreciate and manipulate the world around me as well as being useful knowledge to the kind of profession I wanted. I think this is essentially Ni to the core: cause and effect understanding, seeing the patterns in a minimal or confusing information, and learning knowledge that isn't immediately useful, but might be one day.

    The best reward I ever received was encouragement. Because I was good at math (often better than my classmates) I was always rushing to figure things out first so I could help teach my friends, who in retrospect, were often Se dominant people and thus, appreciated my Ni insights. Maybe this is an example of me using my creative Fe to connect with people to share my knowledge, but at the time, I did it because it made me friends, made me feel appreciated and necessary and made my friends happy. My best memory from second grade was when our teach was trying (unsuccessfully) to teach our class long addition. I figured it out and taught my friends at my learning pod a much more simple way to solve the problems. Then some people from the pod next to us heard what I had said and came over for me to teach them as well. Soon I had taught half the class my method and they had taught the other people who didn't understand.

    I also come from a well educated technical family. My mother, an SEI, parented me very passively, especially when it came to school, leaving my father, an LII, as my main role model for my early years. He works as a database administrator, specializing in pay role software such as PeopleSoft. I think he encourage the technical potential he saw in me because he knew that many of the quality careers were in engineering and computer science and also saw the trend of many mid level american jobs moving over seas, especially to India. My mother is disabled, so my whole life, he has singlehandedly supported our family, and has done a great job at it. I think he saw my creative potential, but was unable to model his one dimensional suggestive Fe and with his Ne, tried to give me the best possibility when I grew up to achieve career success and support my own family.

    At the same time, I was enrolled in several gifted and talented programs which emphasized math and later attended a highschool which I think has the best engineering program in the state.

    The combination of my own conceptual ability, my father's parenting and the scholastic oppertunities compounded into my mathematical ability.

    I should also note that pure math, like linear algebra, is much harder for me than say, calculus, because the whole idea is to build a logical foundation through proofs. In a sense, it is math or logic philosophy, which forced me to use my own Ti instead of my strongest Ni function. In calculus, I could picture complicated concepts in my head, like partial derivatives describing a 2D plane tangent to a hillside, but no such luck with cofactor expansion of a 5x5 matrices, let alone proofs! True to my IEI archetype, I think such math is great for other people to figure out and do for me, but I don't plan on probing the vast logical network, looking for new things.

    As for writing, probably why I'm not very good at that is because almost every English teacher I have had has be an SLI grammar natiz, with absolutely no ability to inspire and nothing to inspire them with.

    Did this help? Can you relate?

    And if anyone chooses to quote this, for the love of god, don't quote the whole thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post

    Did this help? Can you relate?

    And if anyone chooses to quote this, for the love of god, don't quote the whole thing
    Yes, thank you very much for your detailed response. From everything that has been said, I have been able to gain a bit more of an understanding of what aspects of math I have been drawn to, and why. I especially relate to how my Ni might have been engaged in a way to solve a puzzle. I love puzzles.

    I think the most attractive thing for me about math is working within a closed system. I guess not all math is like this, but this has been the case in my math experience. Life is imperfect, subject to endless variables. Trying to understand and respond responsibly to an inexhaustibly meaningful world is exhausting. I think math has provided a feeling of completeness and finitude. A feeling of being done. That is an unusual, but welcomed feeling for me.

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    IEI 2 DUM 4 MATHS
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    Hello,

    I'm new to this forum. I've been observing for a while, but have been hesitant to participate without a specific question. Something came to mind tonight that I wanted to share.

    I am wondering if there is any info out there (personal experience or theoretical) on why an IEI might be attracted to math. Though I work in arts education, and my background is in the arts, math has always come easily to me. Throughout school, I consistently did better in math classes with much less effort than English or Social Studies courses. This seems surprising since the stereotypical arts person is better at English than math. In 3rd grade, I recall getting an award for scoring higher than the 6th graders in math. In high school, I got a higher math SAT score than Verbal. I actually recall "studying" the math sections of the SAT practice book for fun. And when I went to take the test, it was in a math classroom, and I felt very soothed. Even as a very young girl (5 or 6 years old), I would have friends sleep over. As we lay there in the dark before bed, I would request that they give me math problems (simple addition) to do as I fell asleep.

    Is this an attraction that relates to the mobilizing function? From what I understand, the mobilizing function is weak... so I wonder why I would be good at it. I don't think I am good at all introverted logic stuff, though. So maybe it is a fluke.

    Thank you,

    Rahmyn
    I think it is a hidden agenda motive possibly. As an IEE, Te often manifests as me making charts of things I think about and do for fun. Sort of like I am trying to present something to myself in an orderly and aesthetic fashion.

    Absurd: You Ti dominants sure say things I don't really know where to put.
    labtard: fml
    Absurd: Hah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I am wondering if there is any info out there (personal experience or theoretical) on why an IEI might be attracted to math.
    perhaps because it gives one the ability to express oneself in a more detached and abstract language which most closely mirrors the inherent impressions of this type

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    perhaps because it gives one the ability to express oneself in a more detached and abstract language which most closely mirrors the inherent impressions of this type
    That's what appeals to me most in maths - Ni + Ti tends to like reductionism. That's also what I like about law and socionics...
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    I like math.
    It may take me a bit to get used to understand a concept but after a few examples and I'm solving them on my own, I FEEL AWESOME.

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    too stupid to math because F, derp. all of you belong in the kitchen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    too stupid to math because F, derp. all of you belong in the kitchen.
    You're confusing S-egos with us, N-types don't eat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    People talk about mathematics as it was something specific. There are several branches. It's been said that proficiency at some of the "higher" branches is correlated to intuitive thinking. And let's not be prejudiced here: "higher" doesn't mean "superior", just more complex, which intuition handles better than logic.
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    I guess we're referring to the kind of maths that is generally studied from high school up to first-year university- not very complex or higher branches, but the more common kinds of maths.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Interesting thread, as I am studying maths at this moment...
    I would not say that I am very good at it, but good. I think maths is not only about rationnal things. Actually maths is art too. You need to imagine many possibilities to resolve a problem. It's like having many tools, and need to find what tool you need. Many times you have to "rig" equations before applying a formula otherwise you can not continue. To me it is a mixing of rationnality and art.
    And maths look like a game with many rules too. If we take it as a game, it is nicer actually.
    English is my second language

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    I have always been quite good at math - there were some things i had problems with like e-functions, but the rest was pretty easy. I have to admit though, since I graduated from school and went to university I never had need for it anymore, so now I forgot a lot of stuff. Most of it is kind of useless anyway in everyday life.
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    Starfall is right, down with math and hkkmr.

    ...

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    If I only studied, I may have done better in Calc I and II. I had to take Calc II twice because I stopped going to class the first time around. Not too long ago I was interested in trying to study Calculus on my own to actually understand it on a deeper level, but I just haven't gotten to it yet. I've always thought the text book approach was incredibly boring.

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    I'm going to pretend to be IEI for a second because well most of the threads are dead and I just feel like replying to some.


    Math.
    Math and I have a love-hate relationship. Whenever I first start out a math class or refreshing for chemistry or physics I loathe it. I will literally beat the pages and want to yell, "WHHHHYYYYYYYYY?" but then I'll youtube a problem or two (usually of someone actually going over a problem and how to solve it)...and bam, I completely understand it and then become addicted to solving them...I'll actually become somewhat giddy if I'm getting answer after answer correct.

    I currently just finished two extra pages of med calculations because I was so into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I'm going to pretend to be IEI for a second because well most of the threads are dead and I just feel like replying to some.


    Math.
    Math and I have a love-hate relationship. Whenever I first start out a math class or refreshing for chemistry or physics I loathe it. I will literally beat the pages and want to yell, "WHHHHYYYYYYYYY?" but then I'll youtube a problem or two (usually of someone actually going over a problem and how to solve it)...and bam, I completely understand it and then become addicted to solving them...I'll actually become somewhat giddy if I'm getting answer after answer correct.

    I currently just finished two extra pages of med calculations because I was so into it.
    Not IEI either ;-)

    I'm the opposite to BB, In the start i go like "fuck yeah, this is totally interesting, it helps me understand stuff beter, I can use this to explain x y z a b g etc" but than the calculations start and I get frustrated: "I understand this, why don't do the numbers add up? fuck this shit isn't there a calulator that just fixes this stupid formulea etc etc". I than quit never to look at the stuff again.

    Incedentily this makes me great at explaining how someone else could do calculations, I can break it down for them, explain it, guide them through. It's when I need to do them myself I'll skip steps, miscalculate, jump to conclusions and in every other way sabotage the execution and so.... I never really score above 6 on math tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    The way you described your relationship with math kind of sounds like my relationship with Flappy Bird
    who is Flappy Bird. I'd google but I'm on a school computer.

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    Bless Mother Earth BurningIce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahmyn View Post
    I imagine that any type could be good at math. But I am wondering if there is anything about the make-up of IEIs that produces a special propensity.
    eventually IF we want to name something specific to IEIs (potentially also SEIs) and IF it applys that way: Hidden Agenda. What is more categorized and structured then maths?

    *please don't tell me an LSI *

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    uhm why doesn't the Beta Quadra contain posts only about sex

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    So I have a question for Ni folks? What in maths do you find thrilling? Can you point out specific field? Number theory?
    I'm going to give my Ne answer.
    I'm thrilled about transforming stuff into equations. So that makes me more like lousy scientist. Example: my brother called me about some specific math related problem I converted it into universal solution. Nobody asked for it but solution looked very beautiful.
    Sometimes I pick apart some statements and prove them wrong.
    I quess this is logical creative demonsrative function interplay at its best.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    My current self-type aside (being as there is some disagreement), I can relate my own relationship with math.

    Gonna be honest here, i've always gravitated away from math. My mom noticed this about myself and my sister early on, and sort of pushed us to focus more on math. As high school came around, I did see the wisdom in this, as subjective grading in the humanities subjects reared its ugly head among teachers who took sides on an issue, or worse, took the opportunity (at times blatant) to play favoritism by putting down an inferior mark without any particular reason behind it (read: just a grade, zero comments).

    Math provides little to no room for error, I also dislike that aspect of it, but it also provides for fairer assessments. it's either you got it right or you didnt, On the bright side, it's very teachable and learnable (of course this depends on the teacher, which can make all the difference in the world).

    I did end up getting through fairly advanced math in college (single- and multivariable calculus, and differential equations), never took linear algebra because it was not required and i had no desire to . I struggled a bit with single-variable calculus (luckily was on a pass/fail system for that one), but had a SUPERB multivariable calculus professor (an LII, i think?) who made it soo easy and fun -- definitely was one of my favorite classes in college... not enough to make me want to major in a math-heavy field, though

    similar to what another poster in this thread mentioned, I have not really needed to use much of this advanced math (or at all actually) in my current career. It does make me wonder why it was even required for my career path in the first place, but i like things the way they are now. That said, if I was needing to implement those skills on a daily basis, I'm sure it would still be fine and the math skills would be second nature by now, just because of practice.

    so, I stand by what several people have said -- being able to do math, even advanced math -- is not type related, but rather a matter of being explained in the right way to facilitate understanding of it.
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