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Thread: Guides for dual pairs: attracting an ISFj-ESI

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    Default Guides for dual pairs: attracting an ISFj-ESI

    Translated from the instruction for dual pairs series (original thread).
    Written by Margie, type ESI.

    ++added: see also Duality observations



    "I remember someone requested instructions about Dreiser...

    How to get Dreiser.
    Preface.
    First, think – do you need this? It is only at first glance that Dreiser seems gentle and good-natured. Do you need to be fed (with what she sees as fit) taken care of (the way she sees it fit) and taught how to live? If not, then it's better to not initiate anything. Maybe she will leave in the end, but you'll feel yourself the last bastard for at least six months.

    Chapter one. "Hi girl, may we get acquainted?" - "You may. Begin."
    Becoming acquainted with an ESI is easy. Usually it's enough to demonstrate your interest. No, not in her. In getting to know her. In response to any interest shown in her ("hey, what are you reading? do you like it?"), and other imposing questions, an inadequate reaction could follow. In general, fewer questions. Better tell something interesting yourself.
    Any questions are best formulated in the form of ideas or proposals: "I will escort you out. Do you mind?"
    Relax. If she doesn't like something, she will let you know.

    Chapter Two. Flirting or the club?
    Two of the most common ways to direct relations into a more intimate course – flirting and pressuring – here can lead to unexpected results.
    No, Dreiser will willingly flirt ... and only flirt. No guarantee that this will lead to anything else. The same with pressuring. Rude pressure will be perceived as an assault, polite – as a game.
    This means that you will be trying to seduce Dreiser, and she, with pleasure participating in this activity, will not become seduced. The activity itself is more interesting than the outcome (if the end outcome is more interesting, Drayka will seduce you herself).
    However, the "distraction" method works well on her: "I read to the beloved selected chapters from the course of differential geometry". Dreiser will be taken in by an interesting story, and relax ... here she can be taken warm. Or you.

    Chapter Three. Financial matters.
    Dreisers very much appreciate efforts and attention that were spent on them. Only they appreciate not the absolute, but the relative quantity. They are well capable of determining how much effort you have invested.
    Meaning, if you are a millionaire, an expensive gift will leave her indifferent (another matter, if you are a poor student). But if you have managed to find an hour in your busy schedule to spend this time with her ...
    If you have good imagination and conventional courting is not in your style, the most original gift will not make an impression as much as doing something traditional (and, conversely, if you are more traditional, rely on your imagination). In short, do something that you wouldn't naturally do, for her beautiful eyes.

    Chapter Four. Overview.
    An important sign that you are considered to be "her own" is an invitation to her home. If you're persistently not being invited over (and you know that she has a place), your chances are getting progressively smaller. To seduce an ESI on a foreign territory is much more difficult.
    But don't consider an invitation to her home as an invite for something more. It's much safer to interpret what she says literally. If you are asked to "go have a cup of coffee" – what was meant is a cup and some coffee.
    And along the way, it is being evaluated how decent of person you are, will you let your hands loose.
    Don't let them loose. Wait at least until a third visit.
    Better volunteer to spend the night (ideally in the same bed with her) and don't do anything.

    Chapter Five. And so, how?
    How to make an inappropriate (or any other) offer?
    There are two options. First – don't make one. Simply in the process of relaxed and informal conversation take her by the hand. If the hand wasn't taken away – you can proceed further.
    Gradually, slowly (better spend a few meetings on this), but not a step back. That is, if during the last meeting something was allowed to you, then on this meeting continue with it in a matter of a fact way.
    Second method: try to inspire her to something, playing on the fact that deep down in her soul ESI fears missing out on an opportunity.
    Meaning, calmly present your proposal formulating it as an idea: "Today I'm going to stay over at your place (tomorrow we're going to submit the application, climb the Mount Everest, etc. fill in the blank as appropriate). Do you mind or should I leave?" If she really doesn't mind – she will agree. Because otherwise you'll leave ...
    No blackmail. Especially emotional. If Dreiser notices or even suspects that you have discovered this weakness of hers, any relationship will be out of the question.

    Chapter Six. A brief dictionary
    If Drayka says "maybe", this means "yes, but not now." She was happy with everything, but she needs to think. Explain to her that "what's there to think about – simply jump".
    If Drayka says "no", it means that "under the current circumstances – no". Change the circumstances. In general, do something, anything – it will be appreciated.
    If the verdict is final and not subject to an appeal, Drayka will certainly explain why the "no".


    Written by Misha Morozov in 2000 (different poster from the above, type unknown):

    "Seduction of Dreiser is akin to rolling barrels of sand up the top of a mountain. The higher you get – the more difficult it becomes. The stronger you push, the more resistance you're met with. Only strong extroverts with good follow-through can normally seduce a Dreiser. Dreiser does not allow to get frivolous with her, will not allow herself to get groped while dancing, will become offended at overly sexual hints. This makes the task of seduction all the more difficult. If Eve was Dreiser, Adam would still be living in paradise and masturbating. You can feed Dreiser with however many "forbidden fruits", from this she will close off even more and become defensive. Those who are accustomed to seducing girls with touch and sweet words will need to learn new tactics. The only way to fuck Dreiser is to relax her as much as possible. You will have to become a eunuch for the time being and desist with any advances. Remember that any playful touches and slippery hints immediately erect a wall between you, breaking which will be very hard. The script for seducing Dreiser goes something like this:

    1. You need to make friends with her. Become a real friend, whom she trusts (this is opposite to the tactic of seduction of Huxley (IEE), with whom becoming friends should not be done under any circumstances). Dreiser should trust you as much as herself and not be afraid of any sexual advances on your part. Escort her home from school, carry the bags for her, drive her to work, try to comfort her after a quarrel with her husband and generally behave as her companion.

    2. Invite her over to your house and make her stay the night. In the mean time, don't make any hasty steps. Suppress your libido and actually go to sleep. Remember that it is in the evening that Dreiser is most set to provide resistance and ready to give her strongest rebuff. You may even lie in the same bed, but this does not mean that she is ready to give herself to you. It simply means that she trusts you enough to lie in same bed. Make sure that in the morning you don't have to hurry to be anywhere. It is likely that you will spend in bed the entire next day.

    3. In the morning you will realize that you have reached a new level of confidence with Dreiser. Perhaps she will even let you stroke her through drowsiness and morning bliss. Don't miss the moment – caress her gently and tenderly. No rough grabbing of breasts, no greedy hugs and groping. "Turn on" and use only your upper body – your hands and lips. Don't forget to continue informal conversation. Closer to the dinner time, you can try to give her sexual pleasure. Keyword - "give her", not yourself. Therefore, it is best to do this with lips and tongue. If Drayzerka resists even such an innocent form of sexual attention, then today is not your day. But if she is at least a little bit interested in you, then you won't encounter any resistance. Although at first you will probably be met with cold silence and confusion. Keep going. She's just trying to understand how to react, and can't come up with anything: on the one hand, this is nice, on the other hand, it's safe from all points of view, and in the third this is seemingly not an impingement on her honor.

    4. You have reached the highest level of "friendship" with ESI. Now, not only does she not fear you, but also considers you to be her lover. In a certain sense. And now she is more impassioned and wants to do more. Already in any form. Here you'll be greeted with a surprise. If you're still unfamiliar with the term "premature ejaculation", now you'll learn what it is.

    From bed you'll crawl out only in the evening. You would have fallen asleep perhaps, but you're hungry. Enjoy your meal. "
    Last edited by silke; 12-17-2017 at 06:39 AM.

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    Like this,



    For sure.

    I do enjoy these duality exposes!

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    Be reliable, honest, and helpful. That's really all you need to win over ISFJs. Note the upper case J, as in I'm not referring to any system other than socionics.
    Easy Day

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    Thank you siuntal; you're wonderful for taking time to do these <3 Appreciation to the power of n.

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    Find one about ESEs and SEIs!
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Obtaining is a better word than exploiting, could imply taking possession of by the act of paying.

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    chloroform.

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    Be a wimp
    Be rich
    Be boring
    Be weak
    Have a weird smile
    Talk about the weather
    Tell her she is always right
    Tell her she has awesome analytical reasoning
    Kiss her
    Bite her
    Take her dress off
    Use your bayonet
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labster View Post
    chloroform.
    I would just slip you a date rape pill in your drink, labcoat. Way faster.

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    Thanks siuntal

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    its pretty accurate in chapters one through six. dunno why isfjs are supposedly sexually prudish though. or women, lol.

    i liked the parts about comforting her after a quarrel with her husband. and premature ejaculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    its pretty accurate in chapters one through six. dunno why isfjs are supposedly sexually prudish though. or women, lol.

    i liked the parts about comforting her after a quarrel with her husband. and premature ejaculation.
    So, does this mean you're ESi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So, does this mean you're ESi?
    Yea, does that mean you're ESI, lungs?

    Okay, I'm done.

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    wha?

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    I love that the first point in that article is "are you REALLY sure you want this?".

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    ^ ESIs are pains in the ass. we take a lot. and give only when we feel like it.

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    hahaha

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    the text of the OP in music


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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Translated from the instruction for dual pairs series (original thread).
    Written by Margie, type ESI.

    ++added: see also Duality observations



    "I remember someone requested instructions about Dreiser...

    How to get Dreiser.
    Preface.
    First, think – do you need this? It is only at first glance that Dreiser seems gentle and good-natured. Do you need to be fed (with what she sees as fit) taken care of (the way she sees it fit) and taught how to live? If not, then it's better to not initiate anything. Maybe she will leave in the end, but you'll feel yourself the last bastard for at least six months.

    Chapter one. "Hi girl, may we get acquainted?" - "You may. Begin."
    Becoming acquainted with an ESI is easy. Usually it's enough to demonstrate your interest. No, not in her. In getting to know her. In response to any interest shown in her ("hey, what are you reading? do you like it?"), and other imposing questions, an inadequate reaction could follow. In general, fewer questions. Better tell something interesting yourself.
    Any questions are best formulated in the form of ideas or proposals: "I will escort you out. Do you mind?"
    Relax. If she doesn't like something, she will let you know.

    Chapter Two. Flirting or the club?
    Two of the most common ways to direct relations into a more intimate course – flirting and pressuring – here can lead to unexpected results.
    No, Dreiser will willingly flirt ... and only flirt. No guarantee that this will lead to anything else. The same with pressuring. Rude pressure will be perceived as an assault, polite – as a game.
    This means that you will be trying to seduce Dreiser, and she, with pleasure participating in this activity, will not become seduced. The activity itself is more interesting than the outcome (if the end outcome is more interesting, Drayka will seduce you herself).
    However, the "distraction" method works well on her: "I read to the beloved selected chapters from the course of differential geometry". Dreiser will be taken in by an interesting story, and relax ... here she can be taken warm. Or you.

    Chapter Three. Financial matters.
    Dreisers very much appreciate efforts and attention that were spent on them. Only they appreciate not the absolute, but the relative quantity. They are well capable of determining how much effort you have invested.
    Meaning, if you are a millionaire, an expensive gift will leave her indifferent (another matter, if you are a poor student). But if you have managed to find an hour in your busy schedule to spend this time with her ...
    If you have good imagination and conventional courting is not in your style, the most original gift will not make an impression as much as doing something traditional (and, conversely, if you are more traditional, rely on your imagination). In short, do something that you wouldn't naturally do, for her beautiful eyes.

    Chapter Four. Overview.
    An important sign that you are considered to be "her own" is an invitation to her home. If you're persistently not being invited over (and you know that she has a place), your chances are getting progressively smaller. To seduce an ESI on a foreign territory is much more difficult.
    But don't consider an invitation to her home as an invite for something more. It's much safer to interpret what she says literally. If you are asked to "go have a cup of coffee" – what was meant is a cup and some coffee.
    And along the way, it is being evaluated how decent of person you are, will you let your hands loose.
    Don't let them loose. Wait at least until a third visit.
    Better volunteer to spend the night (ideally in the same bed with her) and don't do anything.

    Chapter Five. And so, how?
    How to make an inappropriate (or any other) offer?
    There are two options. First – don't make one. Simply in the process of relaxed and informal conversation take her by the hand. If the hand wasn't taken away – you can proceed further.
    Gradually, slowly (better spend a few meetings on this), but not a step back. That is, if during the last meeting something was allowed to you, then on this meeting continue with it in a matter of a fact way.
    Second method: try to inspire her to something, playing on the fact that deep down in her soul ESI fears missing out on an opportunity.
    Meaning, calmly present your proposal formulating it as an idea: "Today I'm going to stay over at your place (tomorrow we're going to submit the application, climb the Mount Everest, etc. fill in the blank as appropriate). Do you mind or should I leave?" If she really doesn't mind – she will agree. Because otherwise you'll leave ...
    No blackmail. Especially emotional. If Dreiser notices or even suspects that you have discovered this weakness of hers, any relationship will be out of the question.

    Chapter Six. A brief dictionary
    If Drayka says "maybe", this means "yes, but not now." She was happy with everything, but she needs to think. Explain to her that "what's there to think about – simply jump".
    If Drayka says "no", it means that "under the current circumstances – no". Change the circumstances. In general, do something, anything – it will be appreciated.
    If the verdict is final and not subject to an appeal, Drayka will certainly explain why the "no".


    Written by Misha Morozov in 2000 (different poster from the above, type unknown):

    "Seduction of Dreiser is akin to rolling barrels of sand up the top of a mountain. The higher you get – the more difficult it becomes. The stronger you push, the more resistance you're met with. Only strong extroverts with good follow-through can normally seduce a Dreiser. Dreiser does not allow to get frivolous with her, will not allow herself to get groped while dancing, will become offended at overly sexual hints. This makes the task of seduction all the more difficult. If Eve was Dreiser, Adam would still be living in paradise and masturbating. You can feed Dreiser with however many "forbidden fruits", from this she will close off even more and become defensive. Those who are accustomed to seducing girls with touch and sweet words will need to learn new tactics. The only way to fuck Dreiser is to relax her as much as possible. You will have to become a eunuch for the time being and desist with any advances. Remember that any playful touches and slippery hints immediately erect a wall between you, breaking which will be very hard. The script for seducing Dreiser goes something like this:

    1. You need to make friends with her. Become a real friend, whom she trusts (this is opposite to the tactic of seduction of Huxley (IEE), with whom becoming friends should not be done under any circumstances). Dreiser should trust you as much as herself and not be afraid of any sexual advances on your part. Escort her home from school, carry the bags for her, drive her to work, try to comfort her after a quarrel with her husband and generally behave as her companion.

    2. Invite her over to your house and make her stay the night. In the mean time, don't make any hasty steps. Suppress your libido and actually go to sleep. Remember that it is in the evening that Dreiser is most set to provide resistance and ready to give her strongest rebuff. You may even lie in the same bed, but this does not mean that she is ready to give herself to you. It simply means that she trusts you enough to lie in same bed. Make sure that in the morning you don't have to hurry to be anywhere. It is likely that you will spend in bed the entire next day.

    3. In the morning you will realize that you have reached a new level of confidence with Dreiser. Perhaps she will even let you stroke her through drowsiness and morning bliss. Don't miss the moment – caress her gently and tenderly. No rough grabbing of breasts, no greedy hugs and groping. "Turn on" and use only your upper body – your hands and lips. Don't forget to continue informal conversation. Closer to the dinner time, you can try to give her sexual pleasure. Keyword - "give her", not yourself. Therefore, it is best to do this with lips and tongue. If Drayzerka resists even such an innocent form of sexual attention, then today is not your day. But if she is at least a little bit interested in you, then you won't encounter any resistance. Although at first you will probably be met with cold silence and confusion. Keep going. She's just trying to understand how to react, and can't come up with anything: on the one hand, this is nice, on the other hand, it's safe from all points of view, and in the third this is seemingly not an impingement on her honor.

    4. You have reached the highest level of "friendship" with ESI. Now, not only does she not fear you, but also considers you to be her lover. In a certain sense. And now she is more impassioned and wants to do more. Already in any form. Here you'll be greeted with a surprise. If you're still unfamiliar with the term "premature ejaculation", now you'll learn what it is.

    From bed you'll crawl out only in the evening. You would have fallen asleep perhaps, but you're hungry. Enjoy your meal. "
    this is problematic advice; consent is important. if someone goes 'coldly silent and confused,' ask them if they want you to keep going, stop, or change. ESI would appreciate this a hell of a lot more than you doing something to them when they're showing signs of being cold toward you and confused. I'm with an ESI, and I have known and adored many. For fucks sake think of the LCD when you write shit, especially advice on not stopping one-sided sexual acts. facepalm.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    ^ ESIs are pains in the ass. we take a lot. and give only when we feel like it.
    I disagree that you take relatively a lot. And when else would i want someone to give me something other than when they want to?
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Links to a couple of articles on how Jack becomes "necessary" to the seemingly self-sufficient Dreiser:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...PxmqiXe-IrEEKg

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...G2RlWQBd8PxsTg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Links to a couple of articles on how Jack becomes "necessary" to the seemingly self-sufficient Dreiser:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...PxmqiXe-IrEEKg

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...G2RlWQBd8PxsTg
    Interesting. They are both from the POV of a male ESI - female LIE, I think? Or perhaps it's just the translation.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    If Eve was Dreiser, Adam would still be living in paradise and masturbating.
    Haha!!
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    The description by Misha Morozov seems more type-specific.

    The first description reminds me more of general dating advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Interesting. They are both from the POV of a male ESI - female LIE, I think? Or perhaps it's just the translation.
    Yes, @FDG, you are correct. Sergey Beletsky is ESI, his wife and partner in crime is LIE.

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    I´ve personally had my fair share of problems with some male ESIs in my life. If they are a bit insecure, their can be quite obsessive (controlling, trying to be first, belitteling others) and completely conrasts with my . Not all of them of course are like this, but I´ve been bitten more than once...I´ve seen their LIE gfs or wives handling this by directly insulting them whenever they go overboard, but it´s not my style, I prefer to just drop the relationship.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Interesting. They are both from the POV of a male ESI - female LIE, I think? Or perhaps it's just the translation.
    about fucking time I existed in the literature
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Links to a couple of articles on how Jack becomes "necessary" to the seemingly self-sufficient Dreiser:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...PxmqiXe-IrEEKg

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...G2RlWQBd8PxsTg
    identical in my relationships with ESI except they liked when I made moves. that part in the article about it 'being wrong' doesn't apply if they guy is one of these 'woke' ESI who doesn't think women aren't people with the desire to ask people out. I keep meeting a lot of them. Saves time.
    Last edited by nanashi; 01-21-2018 at 06:26 AM.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Barring libido and desperation, most ISFjs have a preconceived notion of the expected behaviour, appearance and social status of a preferred partner, and this ideal can vary significantly among them due to variations in how they were raised and their influences. People have to appear to have most of the ideal ingredients in order to be allowed closer; otherwise they'll be kept at a distance and these rejections may not be obvious because ISFjs hold their cards rather close. ISFjs will attempt to mold people into exactly what they want should partners/friends fall somewhat short; people have to measure up in order for ISFjs to be content enough to keep them on the inside. I've seen many ISFjs who've isolated their partners even though they remain loyal. To attract them, discover their ideals and mimic it; now to maintain a relationship based on showmanship is a whole different matter - so I wouldn't suggest this approach......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Barring libido and desperation, most ISFjs have a preconceived notion of the expected behaviour, appearance and social status of a preferred partner, and this ideal can vary significantly among them due to variations in how they were raised and their influences. People have to appear to have most of the ideal ingredients in order to be allowed closer; otherwise they'll be kept at a distance and these rejections may not be obvious because ISFjs hold their cards rather close. ISFjs will attempt to mold people into exactly what they want should partners/friends fall somewhat short; people have to measure up in order for ISFjs to be content enough to keep them on the inside. I've seen many ISFjs who've isolated their partners even though they remain loyal. To attract them, discover their ideals and mimic it; now to maintain a relationship based on showmanship is a whole different matter - so I wouldn't suggest this approach......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Very perceptive, and it agrees with what I'm discovering about ISFj's.

    I've also been told that they can ignore conventional opinions if their intended partners fulfill their own requirements.

    I normally dress in a dark jacket, white shirt with an open collar, dark wool slacks and black shoes, and so probably look like what some ESI's imagine they want.

    I was talking to one 22 year-old ESI-Fi and we became friendly and I mentioned that I was recently divorced but was looking to get married again. She looked at me and said, "Maybe you should have a fling before you look for a wife." I, being a complete ignoramus, completely missed her meaning. At first. (I'm old enough to be her father, and this fact wasn't important to her at all, although it kind of put her out of my realm of possibles.)

    I was talking to another ESI-Se (33 yo, but I thought she was older), again in my work clothes/business costume, and I asked her out to lunch and she agreed before I finished the sentence. I had flirted with her for a total of only about twenty minutes over the course of two weeks, so she could only have been going on first impressions.
    At lunch, I told her I had a building full of machines which were not being used, and she suggested that I turn it into a Maker's Place, where entrepreneurs who wish to make products come in and pay to use them. (I immediately started wondering if the income from that would offset the pay of one full-time employee and the liability and damage insurance.) She was clearly trying to mold me toward her ideal. Lol.

    @Rebelondeck, I agree that it is completely useless to try to be someone you are not. But I also think it is essential for me to find out what ISFj's want, because that has to hew pretty closely to what I want. Neither of us want to be controlled, but both of us would like a helping hand toward achieving our goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Very perceptive, and it agrees with what I'm discovering about ISFj's.

    I've also been told that they can ignore conventional opinions if their intended partners fulfill their own requirements.

    I normally dress in a dark jacket, white shirt with an open collar, dark wool slacks and black shoes, and so probably look like what some ESI's imagine they want.

    I was talking to one 22 year-old ESI-Fi and we became friendly and I mentioned that I was recently divorced but was looking to get married again. She looked at me and said, "Maybe you should have a fling before you look for a wife." I, being a complete ignoramus, completely missed her meaning. At first. (I'm old enough to be her father, and this fact wasn't important to her at all, although it kind of put her out of my realm of possibles.)

    I was talking to another ESI-Se (33 yo, but I thought she was older), again in my work clothes/business costume, and I asked her out to lunch and she agreed before I finished the sentence. I had flirted with her for a total of only about twenty minutes over the course of two weeks, so she could only have been going on first impressions.
    At lunch, I told her I had a building full of machines which were not being used, and she suggested that I turn it into a Maker's Place, where entrepreneurs who wish to make products come in and pay to use them. (I immediately started wondering if the income from that would offset the pay of one full-time employee and the liability and damage insurance.) She was clearly trying to mold me toward her ideal. Lol.
    I can't imagine hearing that sentence from a young female ESI... specially to someone they aren't very close to, you're a lucky man
    Most gammas I've met, don't really care about age gap when they really like someone. Specially SEE but ESI and LIE too. Deltas however are usually very aware of the age gap, EIIs are very aware of the fact that someone is younger/older and how this fact is affecting their relationship, and LSEs agree with them. My LSE friend is "one" year older than me and she said:" it's interesting that you are younger but we understand eachother"...and I've heard some similar sentences from a LSE cousin who is also older than me, while I can communicate very easily with ESIs and SEEs much younger or much older, and they don't mind. Actually I think they enjoy the differences.

    It's odd to wear business suit to impress ESIs, 98% of the time I wear multipurpose clothes (simple shirt+jeans), the type of clothes you can go pretty much anywhere with, and as long as I'm neat/clean and athletic, the ESIs are impressed, since they care more about "natural things" meaning body shape, smell, movements, rather than clothes. I think if they had a preference it would be sports clothes rather than formal attire. But of course men look good in suits

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    The tactic that worked for me with this ESI was to appear very unnaproachable, sort of like a wild animal. Also, I acted cold towards her. At one point I changed the tactic and became warmer towards her for about a day or so, then ignored her again. Before I had noticed, she had fallen for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I can't imagine hearing that sentence from a young female ESI... specially to someone they aren't very close to, you're a lucky man
    Actually, I had been having lunch with her for several months, I just didn't consider her a prospect. I was chasing her boss, who owned the place. I don't think I'm lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Most gammas I've met, don't really care about age gap when they really like someone. Specially SEE but ESI and LIE too. Deltas however are usually very aware of the age gap, EIIs are very aware of the fact that someone is younger/older and how this fact is affecting their relationship, and LSEs agree with them. My LSE friend is "one" year older than me and she said:" it's interesting that you are younger but we understand eachother"...and I've heard some similar sentences from a LSE cousin who is also older than me, while I can communicate very easily with ESIs and SEEs much younger or much older, and they don't mind. Actually I think they enjoy the differences.
    Yes, Delta's and Betas seem to care much more about age hierarchy. My SLI ex-wife is seven years older than me, and while that never bothered me, I once overheard her tell her sister that she robbed the cradle. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    It's odd to wear business suit to impress ESIs,
    I wasn't wearing it to impress ESI's. It's what I wear when I'm working, and I don't change just to go to lunch. But on the weekends, my son has told me I dress like a homeless person. Man, I don't understand where he gets that. Just because I pick some shirt and pants randomly out of a drawer or closet and I tend to wear clothes until they are falling apart, people get judgemental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    98% of the time I wear multipurpose clothes (simple shirt+jeans), the type of clothes you can go pretty much anywhere with, and as long as I'm neat/clean and athletic, the ESIs are impressed, since they care more about "natural things" meaning body shape, smell, movements, rather than clothes. I think if they had a preference it would be sports clothes rather than formal attire. But of course men look good in suits
    A good suit can make a guy who is slightly out of shape look like a panther. I didn't appreciate this until my fourth or fifth suit. But to look really good in clothes, it is best to be thin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    The tactic that worked for me with this ESI was to appear very unnaproachable, sort of like a wild animal. Also, I acted cold towards her. At one point I changed the tactic and became warmer towards her for about a day or so, then ignored her again. Before I had noticed, she had fallen for me.
    That's very interesting. I'd have a hard time playing hot and cold, but you might be right.

    DJArendee, a man whose insight into the types was, in my opinion, unsurpassed, said this of ESI's: "Hit on them once or twice, until they know that you exist, then ignore them. Never look at them again. They no longer exist. They'll do the rest of the work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    .......... I also think it is essential for me to find out what ISFj's want, because that has to hew pretty closely to what I want. Neither of us want to be controlled, but both of us would like a helping hand toward achieving our goals.
    Often, one may not find out unless one gets really close, which may likely require revealing oneself firstly; the ISFj won't normally take the lead.

    All types prefer to have some form of control, related to self-determination and ego protection, but these mean different things to different personalities. Everybody has preconceived notions (dreams) of where they would like to be, but Eps and Ijs may be rather flexible on how and when these aspirations are accomplished so long as the end goals are eventually reached. Now, Ejs and Ips seem to like immediacy so want to steer the ship; control for them usually has a different fundamental meaning. In a sense, types from the two groupings don't go about plan execution in the same way so role delineation should be very possible. Now, all types can become control freaks where sharing is an impossibility so they look for slaves.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    That's very interesting. I'd have a hard time playing hot and cold, but you might be right.

    DJArendee, a man whose insight into the types was, in my opinion, unsurpassed, said this of ESI's: "Hit on them once or twice, until they know that you exist, then ignore them. Never look at them again. They no longer exist. They'll do the rest of the work."
    I think there's some insight that's worthwhile here but that it's also amiss in certain scenarios.



    I keep having success with ESIs (and my current fiance is one) when I do what I normally do, proclaim something they did is of quality and show I'm a (what's the version of 'gentleman' for women?) show I'm considerate, show they are in my wolf pack so to speak, even if they're a newb. If you do this all the time, be the kind of person you want to be and point out when any person does something great, regardless of type, you're on your way to being a great fit for an ISFj. But chasing anyone sort of can get addicting. Love's not easy when you get addicted to stalking, etc. Love's supposed to involve your genuine identity and confident vulnerability. That's when I have the most success with ESIs. And I've read about it in a duality description for Jack and Dreiser: Overthinking it or KNOWING you'll fit and trying to force it just gets desperate and controlling. You don't know...that's part of the great part. Love's sort of a gift to experience from life.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    DJArendee,"Hit on them once or twice, until they know that you exist, then ignore them. Never look at them again. They no longer exist. They'll do the rest of the work."
    I liked DjArendee as well, thought he had very interesting observations. I was originally into mbti and his videos sent me towards socionics. All his stuff is gone on youtube I believe.
    Wish I could see his ESI stuff.........."hitting on them and walking away......" is almost exactly my flirting style. Oddly they come around........very carefully, after you let them decide "they" want to initiate. I get bored if their walls are too high and they are too cautious and subtle about trying to close the distancel

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    The tactic that worked for me with this ESI was to appear very unnaproachable, sort of like a wild animal. Also, I acted cold towards her. At one point I changed the tactic and became warmer towards her for about a day or so, then ignored her again. Before I had noticed, she had fallen for me.
    I do a variation of this myself, not purposefully but their unresponsiveness makes it obvious to back off and wait for them to reciprocate something. Seems naturally, somehow I never doubt myself........she will or she won't. I go bold and back off. Been outright rejected sometimes, but small changes can be seen in them after you give them space. Can't be "in the face" of these girls, got to let them choose you kind of. They can be very unapproachable and have a hard exterior, but you can see them soften and become unsure of themselves ever so slightly and you have made an impression on them........sort of can tell they are thinking about you by the new way they are acting around you. I can see the gears turning in their heads and tell they are very self aware around me suddenly. They are vulnerable and you can tell. I leave them alone and let them make initiatives. Don't crowd them. Has to be their idea.
    I ignore them hard........they understand this, this is there baseline behavior around others. Strangely you gain some trust by not continuing to push their boundaries. They begin to think about you because they feel safe because you gave them space and freedom and you haven't done anything except ignore them right back. Show them you don't give your heart away quickly, as they never do. So cautious they are, but when they decide (after you let them be) they will go after you.

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    ESIs are not as passive in courtship as the article suggests. They can be very persistent, especially the Se subtype.

    This type will present with a cold reserve (the women are described as "bitchy" looking), which can be discouraging if you want to start a conversation. From what I understand, the most prudent move is actually not to approach an ESI, as they often find this uncomfortable. Instead signal signs of openness - make yourself available to him/her approaching you. ESI is Fi-lead so is very aware of what they want in a partner, and they will usually show some initiative to consolidate intimacy.

    Be available, pique their curiosity, but don't be too forward - deal in innuendo and be speculative. An air of mystery will encourage ESIs to pursue you, and this is essential to increase their investment.


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    or you can put it like this: if you need advice on how to approach/flirt/make an impression on someone, that's not your dual, or more simply that's not the person you should have a romantic affair with.

    even more simply, if you need time to create an image that is appealing to the person you're interested in, you'll be in a constant state of deceit, and stress. love comes naturally.

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