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Thread: my type?

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    Hi everyone. I was just looking for opinions on what my type might be. Ill try to keep it short and objective.

    Personality
    - varies between extremes of being serious and silly
    - said to smile unnaturally/rigidly
    - tense, "edgy" character
    - sometimes socially awkward to the degree that its funny (cute to friends, uncool to outsiders)
    - bad with people by nature. Prone to blurting out insensitive socially inappropriate stuff but I appreciate people who say they are used to it or even find it cute
    - funny expressions and mannerisms which is unintentional... think it comes from watching too much anime ;-)
    - try hard to be polite and to be liked in order to avoid criticism and future problems... been working a lot on smiling and small talk and have somehow accomplished the feat of coming across as being "bright and outgoing "... but the initial impression people get of me without having talked to me is "cold"
    - very sensitive to criticism and will brood about it for days, try to think of why (usually assuming the worst of myself) , and feel so discouraged I may not feel like working.
    - dislike having a bunch of rules imposed on me but will try my best to cooperate anyway
    - said to appear gentle and accommodating but when it comes to actions am actually quite firm and stubborn in sticking to things my way if I think a request is too much (I just don't like to openly disagree for fear of being impolite and arguing)
    - often late
    - hate uncertainty and unexpected changes... I don't like it when things are "hanging in the air"

    Work style
    - prone to stress and overwork
    - perfectionist ...will work over time if not satisfied with it or it hasn't reached a stage of completion
    - when I have a busy schedule I abide strictly to a time management system called "unschedule" which was covered in Neil fiores "now habit " system. I keep track of how many hours I spend on work, study, and play. Basically I believe in work hard play hard so if I study for 1 hour I will allow myself to rest for 1 hour and do whatever I want. If I keep on working and don't rest then that quota can be used another day. If I work only 1 hour but spend 4 hours playing then I will have to make up for that undeserved play and wasted time by working hard another day .
    Also I have "work days" where I am supposed to follow the work-play-work-play balanced approach and then "relax days" where I can just do whatever I want and stop keeping strict track of my time. I've always had trouble relaxing because I hate wasted time and the idea of spending a whole day doing nothing. So sometimes I have to schedule my relaxation and force myself to do nothing but lie on the bed for the whole day.
    - try to research and implement technology to do things faster. I get impatient with doing things slow... though I do tend to work slower anyway ( the perfectionism)
    - alternate between bursts of energy and total lack of it which is why I use a time management system to make the optimum use of my energy levels and time.
    - walk fast and try to get from a to b and get tasks out of the way ASAP because I cant relax with stuff looming overhead. Then I enter zombie mode after depleting all my energy.
    - very goal oriented and purposeful and driven when it comes to accomplishing them.
    Prefer goals you can measure with a number.

    Health
    - I try to keep my living quarters tidy because I feel stressed living in a messy environment but when I have a busy schedule I easily slack off and am always too tired to cook and keep things clean and this just becomes the neglected messy department.
    - can't take care of myself at all, need someone to take care of me. Even when I'm a sick and dying mess I will just ignore it and push myself to work and play. So my coughs can last very long.
    - always tired and sometimes sleeping in class. Definitely on the bus.

    Spending
    - I am known to buy the cheapest things but lately have been spending a lot of money on aromatherapy and massages . Will compare prices over various shops until I find the cheapest.
    - tend to be frugal and keep firm control over my spending so that I always have money in the bank (to prepare myself for unpleasant surprises)... I don't keep track though, most often I just use reverse budgeting after I've calculated all my income expenses and surplus money .

    Fashion
    I try to be fashionable. Some days I go for colorful other days I just go by functional and comfortable (but it still has to be nicely coordinated).



    that's about it for now. if you have any questions i'm happy to answer them. thanks in advance!

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    VI pls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    VI pls.
    Sorry but I'm a little sensitive about privacy and don't look too good lol. Instead I'll just share a story on a pretty defining relationship so that you can have an idea of what kind of people I like and dislike.


    Relationships
    once had the crush of my life on a guy who was esfx... was very touched because he cleaned up my room which was messy like a garbage dump at the time and restored much of my peace of mind. Also liked him because he was very expressive and funny and enjoyed joking around with him (especially over his illogicality and incompetence with numbers, which I found rather cute) ... and because he was very fashionable and sensual. Felt very comfortable and relaxed in his room because it was so tidy and he was into collecting nice fragrant stuff so I felt at home with him. He was quite the gentle mother figure and I liked him for that.
    BUT I couldn't stand his changing mood. I thought he was too sensitive sometimes and sometimes I got impatient and unsympathetic when I suspected that he was just trying to attract attention. I was also always second guessing where our relationship stood (did he like me or hate me? were we friends or not?) and often analyzed his motives and changes and behaviour with my other friend. He hated being called "emo" by me.
    He also got pissed when I was so shocked by how much money he spent per week (was really quite extravagant), I guess he took it as criticism that one time because I'd usually joke about his spending philosophy and he'd be like "please teach me how to manage my money " (which I unfortunately didn't get to do because our relationship soured so much, otherwise I am very good at that). As for me, I got hurt because he called me "dirty girl " (not in a joking way) and abandoned me when I was at a very low and lonely point in life. I don't take betrayal well so it just got worse from there as I got a little aggressive in my "revenge plan"
    Also he hung out with a lot of fake people... the kind that would be all smiles to people they like and cold gossiping bitches towards the people they didn't like, instead of those who are open and try to be friendly and fair to everyone (my kind of people) . But he was afraid to hang out with my friends for some reason .

    I respected his hobbies and his motives for participating in them but when I tried joining in I got very bored and impatient because you had to do everything in slow motion and there was no goal to it apart from sitting there looking graceful and being at peace with everyone and the whole cosmos ... or whatever. I preferred archery which involved mental and physical training and a clear goal to it.
    Last edited by echan; 03-19-2013 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    ...objective.
    What a way to destroy a personality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    What a way to destroy a personality.
    Err... not sure what you are expecting here but given the context wouldn't it be easier for people to type me if I just stick to the facts?
    Last edited by echan; 03-17-2013 at 05:47 AM.

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    @echan Some useful and detailed posts.

    I'm not going to quote because I'm in a lazy mood.

    I think in your ego block there's an introverted perceiving function balanced with extroverted thinking. I'll go with extroverted thinking because you work via. 'trends' not precision when making decisions. The precision which is described is demonstrative Ti 'I work to demonstrate capability through precision because I am monitored in my activities for quality.' but it's masked in what you described by how you choose to live your personal life through empirical guidance 'I don't worry about the bank because I make the right choices consistently', 'I don't worry about getting work done because I allocate the time to do it.'

    This is reinforced by what appears to be Fi mobilizing because you openly state that you come across as socially awkward by making statements which are emotively not in sync with the group. Those with Fe mobilizing i.e. LSI or LII tend to be socially 'amiable' characters and prefer to make non-controversial statements in groups of friends and colleagues.

    Therefore I'd put you in either the ILI or SLI boxes. I'll let you work out if either of those is remotely appropriate.

    Oh and Enneagram 1 or Enneagram 5.

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    I think you might be , same as me.
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    Personality
    - varies between extremes of being serious and silly
    The silliness goes with , but is a very "cold", serious function
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - said to smile unnaturally/rigidly
    - tense, "edgy" character
    - sometimes socially awkward to the degree that its funny (cute to friends, uncool to outsiders)
    - bad with people by nature. Prone to blurting out insensitive socially inappropriate stuff but I appreciate people who say they are used to it or even find it cute
    - funny expressions and mannerisms which is unintentional... think it comes from watching too much anime ;-)
    - try hard to be polite and to be liked in order to avoid criticism and future problems... been working a lot on smiling and small talk and have somehow accomplished the feat of coming across as being "bright and outgoing "... but the initial impression people get of me without having talked to me is "cold"
    Social awkwardness is no surprise, given a has rather poorly developed and terrible . I actually do exactly the same thing, where I practice facial expressions and social interaction in order to keep from being too rediculously awkward, but until I've engaged with someone and started intentionally projecting my emotions and such, I'm in my own little world and people tend to see me as cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - very sensitive to criticism and will brood about it for days, try to think of why (usually assuming the worst of myself) , and feel so discouraged I may not feel like working.
    criticism of what aspects of yourself? I imagine you don't act this way if someone criticises your logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - dislike having a bunch of rules imposed on me but will try my best to cooperate anyway
    - said to appear gentle and accommodating but when it comes to actions am actually quite firm and stubborn in sticking to things my way if I think a request is too much (I just don't like to openly disagree for fear of being impolite and arguing)
    and types in my experience tend to rely more on their own conclusions than input from others or society in general and in that sense tend to be intellectually independent people, and will push back (whether in a passive style or an active one) when pushed to accept "the way it is"
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - often late
    difficulty managing time is one of the curses of a , since is our ignoring function, the practical linear management of time is a type of thinking that clashes with our leading function. Furthermore, with as a polr, I think it's that much more difficult to "make things happen" so to speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - hate uncertainty and unexpected changes... I don't like it when things are "hanging in the air"
    Very j
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    Work style
    - prone to stress and overwork
    this goes with the difficulty managing time
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    - perfectionist ...will work over time if not satisfied with it or it hasn't reached a stage of completion
    - when I have a busy schedule I abide strictly to a time management system called "unschedule" which was covered in Neil fiores "now habit " system. I keep track of how many hours I spend on work, study, and play. Basically I believe in work hard play hard so if I study for 1 hour I will allow myself to rest for 1 hour and do whatever I want. If I keep on working and don't rest then that quota can be used another day. If I work only 1 hour but spend 4 hours playing then I will have to make up for that undeserved play and wasted time by working hard another day .
    Also I have "work days" where I am supposed to follow the work-play-work-play balanced approach and then "relax days" where I can just do whatever I want and stop keeping strict track of my time. I've always had trouble relaxing because I hate wasted time and the idea of spending a whole day doing nothing. So sometimes I have to schedule my relaxation and force myself to do nothing but lie on the bed for the whole day.
    - try to research and implement technology to do things faster. I get impatient with doing things slow... though I do tend to work slower anyway ( the perfectionism)
    - alternate between bursts of energy and total lack of it which is why I use a time management system to make the optimum use of my energy levels and time.
    - walk fast and try to get from a to b and get tasks out of the way ASAP because I cant relax with stuff looming overhead. Then I enter zombie mode after depleting all my energy.
    - very goal oriented and purposeful and driven when it comes to accomplishing them.
    Prefer goals you can measure with a number.
    I find I'm always trying to optimize everything, from my conceptual understand of things to how I accomplish simple tasks, this sounds like much the same personality trait.
    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    Health
    - I try to keep my living quarters tidy because I feel stressed living in a messy environment but when I have a busy schedule I easily slack off and am always too tired to cook and keep things clean and this just becomes the neglected messy department.
    - can't take care of myself at all, need someone to take care of me. Even when I'm a sick and dying mess I will just ignore it and push myself to work and play. So my coughs can last very long.
    - always tired and sometimes sleeping in class. Definitely on the bus.
    is an unconscious and weak function for us, but valued. So we tend to be bad at looking after our physical health/comfort, but we value having it looked after. Regarding the relationship you described, I'd say he was probably ESFp, that is , so although on the surface there were similarities to your dual, , at closer psychological distance the j/p difference became a serious issue, and all the introverted and extroverted functions were backwards from ideal, not to mention he probably hung out with gamma quadra people, and alpha and gamma quadras don't mix well.

    @InvisibleJim: I disagree with your assessment of the statement about not directly keeping track of how much money is in the bank. I think that's really a difference between and , plus maybe a little demonstrative creeping in. A person would tend to keep track of the current state of the account at all times, while a person would keep track of the relationships among various things at a higher level, and periodically make sure their idea of those relationships was realistic.
    Last edited by tejing; 03-17-2013 at 07:11 AM. Reason: typo
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Sorry about that, I was clearing up some unconfirmed accounts and I didn't notice you had posted.

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    poof
    Last edited by echan; 03-26-2013 at 06:24 PM.

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    Here's a description of conflict relations:
    These are relations of constantly developing conflict. Conflicting relations have the worst compatibility between partners among all other relations. However, it does not seem to be so obvious, especially in the earlier stages of development. Conflicting partners appear rather attractive, interesting and with impressive abilities.

    Both partners are usually convinced that they can coexist and collaborate quite peacefully, but soon it becomes apparent that something is always going wrong, making their relationship problematic. Both partners may mistakenly think that the cause of these problems is minor and easily fixed and that all they need to do is to show a little bit more effort in understanding their partner.

    Unfortunately, these attempts to continue pushing their relationship any further will soon provoke an open conflict between the partners. When conflict starts, partners hit each other with arguments exactly in the direction where they can cause maximum pain. In return, the other partner may counterattack even more aggressively. With every conflict these relations become worse and worse.

    Although Conflicting partners show confidence where their partner is unconfident, they are unable to protect and take care of each other's weak points. This regularly brings disagreement and disappointment into these relations. When after several fruitless attempts to establish a stable relationship the partners give up and break the relationship, they feel saved and released.
    Sounds like what you described to me.
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    poof
    Last edited by echan; 03-26-2013 at 06:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    I think I can definitely rule out Fi-valuing for my type because I read some of Maritsa's comments and she said somewhere that if she likes someone she will say straight out "I like you" in a really candid and sweet way, whereas I have big problems with expressing my deep affections because it makes me feel vulnerable and awkward.
    Aww

    Yeah, I have no problem with emotional warmth and psychological closeness.

    This doesn't rule out LSE for you

    Um, LSE are not touchy feely people, just because I'm receptive to it doesn't mean they will do it. My cousin usually just hugs me when she sees me.

    Caregivers are just good about either taking care of the physical needs of their family, or sizing the atmosphere to make sure the person rests rather than overworks, they can tell the internal/external extent of the person's nervous energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    Here's a description of conflict relations:Sounds like what you described to me.
    Sounds like marriage.

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    Sounds like a relationship with difficult emotions and emotional reactions to deal with in general. It takes two to tango and regardless of what you did and didn't do he sounds, pardon me, quite as guilty. I personally don't think socionics will sort it out. Best of luck recovering, since this sounds recent.
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  15. #15
    Creepy-male

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    Very detailed description, I'm mainly reading what you wrote comparing my actions to some of the actions he made that led to his downfall, so its hard for me to "type" the interaction. One aspect is the huge lack of accountability, its very sad (for me) to see things fail as a result of people not willing to be accountable, but inevitably this is what I think is sucking the life out of the relationship as I understand it.

    Attrition by being unaccountable. I'm very sorry things did not work out (for you).

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    That statement from Maritsa about Fi valuing thing isn't true.
    I guess INxx. Do you have blog or thumblr?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    That statment from Maritsa about Fi valuing thing isn't true.
    Right now i guess INxx. Do you have blog or thumblr?
    Whatever....

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    I took that description from here. It's not my favorite site for reference material, but in this case the description seemed good.

    This situation is clearly something you're still sorting out for yourself, and I caution you not to latch onto socionics too strongly, as it's easy to turn it into a kind of fatalism where you no longer consider the people involved as principally responsible for their actions ("socionics made me do it" so to speak). There's an article on this issue here that I think is helpful. The gist of the article is essentially that socionics should be informing how we conduct ourselves in relationships and how we self-actualize, not how we assign blame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    That statement from Maritsa about Fi valuing thing isn't true.
    I guess INxx. Do you have blog or thumblr?
    I used to blog but it was in different languages and when I tried Google translate it turned into a bunch of rubbish. Nowadays I don't blog anymore because I don't have any troubles in my life or feelings (which is a good thing!). Besides not even my best friends bother to look at my FB because I just talk about boring stuff that no one gives a shit about

    What languages do you know? If you happen to be multilingual I can post you some of my creative writings. People tend to like my creative writings and I used to have a teacher who absolutely loved them and called me a "little alien" because they were so out-of-this-world (I also kind of earned myself the "alien" nickname after I wrote something like "Ok everyone, for the sake of our survival, let's have at those alien bitches with all we've got~~!") My stories usually involve some sort of silly farfetched situation where I poke fun at myself and my own stoopidity. One of my friends was like "oh you shouldn't play your jokes on people... I've read your stories and they're funny but sometimes you go a bit too far with your jokes'... Anyway I was quite the "mischievous/playful" prankster and was eventually nicknamed "the little strangeling"

    Other times I am more romantic and symbolic, playing around with related metaphors. Since I have trouble expressing my feelings physically or even verbally they come out awkwardly that way. Here is a translation of a sample sentence that I wrote which illustrates the situation:
    "In the center of the world, I cried out my love. Only, it was a deserted world [lit. "world of vacuum"] where my true feelings could not reach [a single soul]. No matter how I cried, no one could hear me."

    This was a reference to the drama Crying Out Love, In the Center of the World and especially this one poignant scene where the guy goes out to Uluru (the center of the world) all alone and cries himself out because he lost his loved one to leukemia:



    Since I was in a similar situation I used it as a reference but with my own spin to it.
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    Last edited by echan; 03-26-2013 at 06:26 PM.

  20. #20
    Creepy-male

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    Since you seem reasonable I'll respond.

    I'm interested in hearing more about what you have to say. Which aspects do you see as being unaccountable?
    Several let me find some quotes and break it down, some of them will be unrelated to unaccountability, some will.

    - he was quite fussy especially about keeping things clean and often had panic attacks
    This isn't being unaccountable but just for the record this is something I relate to, although I had panic attacks because I had a heart surgery (and no longer have them). The clean/orderliness thing I also relate to and I've come to a realization about a few month ago after traveling to a slummy place and living there with a group of people (some friends, some people I didn't know) that I may be overly clean/orderly. I think that's a good trait because usually it means these people are conscientious about keeping things in place and order, but it can also carry over in a bad way and make people really kind of snobby. In other words I think its a useful skill to be able to deal with messes and not freak out when stuff doesn't work according to plan. This may have been a fault he had and didn't understand or fix because of his young age (I'm assuming you all where in a young relationship).

    1. he’d wake up early and spend a set amount of time on breakfast and makeup (yes, makeup)
    This I find strange, being from a very macho place -- makeup on men is usually a huge shameful thing. But it kind of ties in with the mask stuff you are talking about -- he seems very image conscious and this I'd associate to the cleanliness and orderliness. He seems to want to over control his image and events around him and has panic attacks. I think this is a fault, and maybe he would feel better if he learned to occasionally just make the best out of a shitty situation. You know laugh at himself and not always have to spend so much time fixing himself up and freaking out about things.

    2. go to classes. if he was in a bad mood he’d wear a surgical mask. if he was in a worse mood he’d wear a surgical mask, a hat, and fake glasses to cover himself up. if he felt overwhelmed by schoolwork and the world he’d go AWOL, and he acquired the reputation of being “the guy who doesn’t go to class” as a result.
    Same thing, I can relate skipping out on class. I did this a lot in university, and although I was a pretty bright student and when I worked on stuff my professors tended to like me and give me due credit, I would skip a lot and my university years where strained because of this, on paper I was seen as a really bad student. Anyways looking back I really wish I would have taken more opportunity to involve myself in class. In terms of your ex, it seems like he was still in a phase of being afraid of the world (having to wear a mask, panic attacks, going AWOL, and the like). This all doesn't have to do with accountability but if he was more accountable and acknowledged these faults I think he would have been able to better tear down his barriers and experience a better relationship with you.

    3. spend the rest of his afternoon studying at “place A” where he’d hang out with a group of people. I didn’t like this place too much because being in a group of strangers exposed me to the risk of being gossiped about behind my back which I hate. Besides it’s hard to concentrate on studying when you’re surrounded by people and getting interrupted by conversations, and I think in the end even though he appeared to be “working” a lot of the time, he wasn’t really focused.
    Oh this is completely unrelated to your guy, but I relate to this: When I started to work a job post-university I set a resolve to not let myself get bogged down by office politics. Inevitably what happened is my lack of participation in them made everyone see me as untrustworthy, potentially guilty, not that innocent, and like I have an air of superiority -- this wasn't intended but I could sense it. What would really frustrate me was how the group would spend so much time talking about other people behind their back -- I basically realized if I upset the group, this would be me in another situation. One thing I've done recently to deal with this problem is instead of talking trash, I pay attention to what exactly annoys these people about the person, I agree with them that X behavior is unprofessional (versus bashing the person) and file it in my memory to not cross said person in X way -- then I don't worry about it further.

    I may not spend as much time working but when I do settle down to work I’m very intense and focused on the task and go through them a step by step, ticking off each step as I go. For projects I first break them down into stages and plot them out on a Gannt chart so I know how much time I have to work on each. Then I break them down into tasks which I sort in a todo list with tick boxes. His working style seemed more scattered and aimless -- not that I ever commented on it.
    See this is one opportunity in a relationship that I think you could have helped him possibly. You could have supported him by using your organizational abilities, especially considering how orderly he sounded this would have been a great opportunity. The fact he's scattered and aimless in comparison to you makes me think xxxP > xxxJ in comparison to you.

    - was really sensitive to sounds and would often complain about living with other people who were "too dirty" "too loud"
    Yep overly clean/orderly. Unfortunately I can relate and see lots of other people that can, but this is something I think is a flaw personally. After working in a cube for a bit and living in an apartment, I've had to quickly adjust my standards on such issues and learn to deal with stuff. Like I said he may have just been too young and not realized this (which is understandable), but the lack of accountability is what is keeping him stuck.

    - actually he had something to complain about almost everyone. I thought he was a bit too quick to condemn and criticize people, intolerant of others' flaws, and unwilling to understand things from the other person's POV and contemplate why someone might be that way. once I asked him whether classes were going to be cancelled or not and he was like "go look it up yourself geez I don't get why you people have to ask" (something along the lines of that) and I said "you should be a bit more considerate some people have never experienced a typhoon or not and don't know what to expect... blablabla" and he just replied "watever". he was always complaining about how other people were "inconsiderate" about stuff like creating a mess in the kitchen and disrupting others' sleep with loud sounds etc. etc. but I thought he was pretty inconsiderate too. I think we had a different definition of "consideration" (and I probably ended up being the most "inconsiderate" person that he'd ever met though he never explicitly said so).
    I can relate to this. It's good you try to point these things out, but it can be tricky because saying something like "you should be a bit more considerate some people have never experienced...." could be taken as chastising him and asserting moral superiority versus him being able to see that you want to help him by relieving his stress with others by being more mindful of how his actions effect others. This ties in the overly clean/orderly/fussy aspect I've been mentioning... he needs things a certain way. It really reminds me of something xxxJ almost. ExxJ or IxxJ maybe. Then again I think xxxP types may even exhibit this but in a different way so its hard to say.

    also, he expected sympathy from others and said he liked sympathetic people but he himself was pretty unsympathetic and unforgiving of a lot of people, I think. a friend of mine thought he was "petty" and "narrow-minded" while another friend said "he has a difficult personality"
    Yep overly clean/orderly/fussy/panicky/fearful. It's typical, I think he's just young and the moment he accepts accountability he'll probably improve. Still haven't got to the parts of unaccountability yet...

    - said he respected rational people who led a routine life.
    Makes sense.... this may be xxTj-DS? or something?

    1. what made him stand out the most was his sense of fashion. He liked to wear blindingly bright, vivid clothes like neon yellow or pure blue to attract attention to himself and people would be like "whoa that's so bright" or "... is he gay?". once he bleached his hair orange/yellow and said it made him feel human again which was the weirdest thing ever. anyway he was always trying to get himself noticed one way or another: bursting into songs and dances in public, pacing around and humming around in the corridor, and other weird stuff. It was rather contradictory because on one hand he’d be so self-conscious that he’d avoid going into a place because “there’s too many people it feels like they’re all looking at me” and on the other hand he’d purposely wear bright colors and stand out like a peg. I don’t know but if you felt uncomfortable with people looking at you and judging you wouldn’t you try to make yourself unnoticeable by dressing down instead of doing the exact opposite and going over the top? But yeah that was him in a nutshell... did not make any sense.
    I think maybe he did this as a result of him trying to define his identity, experimenting around with different looks to see what fits. He sounds young, so it may be part of him experimenting to see what fits.

    He was a good actor too, one time he was in a bad mood (again) and hadn’t done anything with his hair (probably didn’t put on makeup too) and when he was talking to the teacher he was making coughing sounds and talked with a hoarse voice and the teacher was like “oh I hope you get well soon” and I just wanted to roll my eyes because it was so obvious to me that he was acting sick. When I saw him later on in the evening he was perfectly OK (and back to his usual dressed up self again. no coughing and was even dancing) and I was like “you looked like shit today mum!”
    This shows a lack of integrity and accountability, being deceptive. Although really I can understand because it's common for students to make up excuses to teachers. But they fact he's trying to act like a victim to receive benefits is somewhat troubling if that behavior carries over into other areas of life uninhibited.

    2. liked writing essays that “sound clever” and hated creative essays (which I liked). when I looked at one of his essays I was somewhat annoyed wanted to either edit the whole thing or rewrite it because it was riddled with grammatical errors and lacked structure and aim and he couldn’t organize his numbers properly. though I did like his ideas and found them quite insightful. later on he told me “oh I made some of the numbers and quotes up lol” and I was shocked “omg you what!??! I feel totally duped”
    Yea once again making up numbers and quotes, seems to lack integrity and accountability, being deceptive. Which with the overly clean/orderly/picky aspect is a little dangerous.

    3. really bad at managing his money too... he liked to buy expensive brands and went broke a few times because he spent all his money during his bad moods. at first he took it well when I commented on his “atrocious spending philosophy” and was like “please do” when I joked “can I strangle you?” and added “you have to teach help me manage my money!” but I never got around to it because when he showed me his bank statement (because he’d ran out of money again) during a dinner that he’d cooked up for me, I was mortified by the uncontrolled spending and then he snapped in the middle of my commentary.
    This is part of why I find it difficult to type him, he respects rational people and is really picky which points to xxxJ but his behavior is more in line with xxxP. It almost seems like he is seeking out that rationally and stability in his life but personally feels like things are a mess and is a bit afraid of disorder and chaos getting out of hand.

    because it was lots of fun and he’d provide me with what I needed -- but at the same time this only happened every once in a blue moon at his own discretion/whim.
    Also not a good trend, having everything to be at his whim/discretion shows a lack of mindfulness of the other person and no give/take. Like I said he sounds young.

    I was often afraid to ask him for help with practical matters like cooking or tidying up my room or helping me carry my luggage (don’t know why) and when I did ask he wouldn’t lend it to me 9 out of 10 times.
    Yep ties into lack of mindfulness of the other person. Self-Focused.

    What was most ridiculous was when I asked for help with my room since the mess was stressing me out and he said:
    “well there’s no point since you will destroy it soon anyway. u should just let the mess grow and decrease naturally. go out there and have fun!”

    While I was like “wtf does he think this is biology” and while I found it amusing it was also very disappointing.
    Yea sounds young, I don't think he was personally trying to dodge helping you out but maybe thought he was being constructive by relieving your stress by suggesting doing something fun. Still likely this came from his own personality trait to avoid doing tedious stuff in order to have more fun. Something kind of seems Fe about this and maybe a lack of Se.

    More bitterly disappointing was the time when I had a fever and was so sick I couldn’t get up and buy food for myself and asked him for help. He just said he was busy.
    That's unfortunate, once again a lack of mindfulness for other people.

    but at close emotional distance we brought out the worst, unsympathetic side in each other.
    Hmmm yea its hard to say this is a result of conflictor relations or not, because this is rather typical in young relationships. A lot of the problems on his end are associated to:
    • Low Accountability
    • Overly Picky/Orderly/Fussy
    • Lack of Mindfulness of Others


    I think if he developed these, things may have been a better success. I usually associate this to being young (because children are usually so self-focused), also the entire thing sounds like a young relationship in terms how you describe things as being good and fun and light at times.


    “you hurt me I hurt you”.
    Sounds like victim-victim relationships. But once again I think this is pretty typical in a young relationship... both sides are a little bit self-focused. I can't really give my opinions on what you could be doing wrong, but its fairly clear to me what he's screwing up.

    I always carried a grudge for some of the things he said/did but still I would look back to the fun times, so I was always the one trying to figure out what went wrong and trying to repair the relationship, and constantly apologizing for him for something that happened 1 month ago, 2 months ago, 3 months ago, 4 months ago... 2 years ago. Not that he seemed to care.
    THIS IS WHERE IT SOUNDS LIKE A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY. He should just learn to take the ego-hits if he actually cares about someone else.

    So yeah I was wondering what kind of relationship this is and whether I should run away from it before I sink into a swamp of negative emotions or just try to be more careful next time.
    Unfortunately it sounds like running away from it was a good option, he may just have to learn the hard way and you have your life to live. On my end I think I learned a lot on what not to do from reading about it, although I'm not the best source for characterizing your relationship in terms of socionics -- where able I provided my thoughts on socionics.

    I thought he was unaccountable because he wouldn't apologize for things he said and did to me that I perceived to be sexual advances, and wouldn't even acknowledge them. He either nullified entire events or conversations entirely by saying "I don't remember that" or "you're just imagining things", or waved it off as "oh I say sexual stuff to all my friends you know me". Then he'd tell my friend that it was all just a misunderstanding on my part. And maybe it was, I don't know.
    I don't know about the sexual stuff, that sounds like joking -- but I wasn't there to see. On the lack of apologizing... yes I agree whole-heartly that this is the problem. Basically if someone is important to you, you have to be able to take the occasional ego-hit and work with them -- its me and you not me and my.

    But the thing that hurt me the most was how he treated me like a stranger and said "you feel like a friend from the past life" when I was grieving over a dying relative who was very dear to me, and had no one else to share my feelings with. I thought "oh, so you've moved onto a new life and new people and now that you have no problems you don't need me as a friend anymore" and felt like a used toy that had been thrown away. Again he said he didn't remember himself saying this and I was angry because I just wanted him to say "I'm sorry".
    Lol he may have meant that positively, like he trusted you so much he felt like your bond extended very far into the past. At any rate I've already given you my full breakdown of what I'm thinking as I'm reading it.

    I think the guy is young and a little self-focused, hasn't really learned to love. You definitely shouldn't beat yourself up too much because what you gave him was probably better than nothing and leaving him may be what's needed for him to grow outside his self-focused world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    This ties in the overly clean/orderly/fussy aspect I've been mentioning... he needs things a certain way. It really reminds me of something xxxJ almost. ExxJ or IxxJ maybe. Then again I think xxxP types may even exhibit this but in a different way so its hard to say.

    This is part of why I find it difficult to type him, he respects rational people and is really picky which points to xxxJ but his behavior is more in line with xxxP. It almost seems like he is seeking out that rationally and stability in his life but personally feels like things are a mess and is a bit afraid of disorder and chaos getting out of hand.
    I think your idea of irrational types is a little off. It sounds like you think they don't tend to express strong opinions. I think it's not so much that as that their opinions don't necessarily fit into a cohesive whole. (The is referred to as "The Critic" after all) This is because of something like that their opinions are made by direct evaluation of the object in question instead of by comparing the object to an internal system of criteria.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    I think your idea of irrational types is a little off. It sounds like you think they don't tend to express strong opinions. I think it's not so much that as that their opinions don't necessarily fit into a cohesive whole. (The is referred to as "The Critic" after all) This is because of something like that their opinions are made by direct evaluation of the object in question instead of by comparing the object to an internal system of criteria.
    This seems to elaborate on what I had said

    Then again I think xxxP types may even exhibit this but in a different way so its hard to say
    It's a good example of how an INTp exhibits "expressing strong opinions". I guess though its hard to say in her example what her ex was because I'm not sure if his behavior was due to comparing objects to an internal system of criteria or because he had made a direct evaluation of the object. I was mainly thinking that maybe his rigidity was related to an IxxJ temperament, possibly ExxJ. But ExxJ seems to be more focused on direct results and action and are rigid more in that sense as opposed to "Static-Fields" of and .

    Oh also may I say good sir, I was mildly offended at you making assumptions about my ideas on irrational types and whether it was on or off. Although because I found your post to be a constructive elaboration on what I brought up I'll sidestep that fact.

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    Apologies, @Shang Tsung, I tend not to think about what I have a right to sound authoritative about and what I don't (such as other people's thoughts), I just say what I think, without moderating the authority factor, and only tend to notice it sounded inappropriately presumptive if it's pointed out to me. On the plus side though, I'm quite open to changing my point of view when given new information. Apparently my impression of you was incorrect, but hopefully expressing what I did was still helpful to someone.
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    Its not a problem, I figured it wasn't a personal slight and you were just wanting to discuss socionics and expand on something.

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    Thanks for the insightful breakdown Shang Tsung, I really appreciate it. I'm pressed for time at the moment so I'll reply on one section first and move onto the rest when I have the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    See this is one opportunity in a relationship that I think you could have helped him possibly. You could have supported him by using your organizational abilities, especially considering how orderly he sounded this would have been a great opportunity. The fact he's scattered and aimless in comparison to you makes me think xxxP > xxxJ in comparison to you.
    ... Possibly. The problem was that
    1. we were seldom in the same classroom and when we were, he worked faster than me so I assumed he was smarter and academically better than me so didn't need my help in that area
    2. we never worked on a project together so I didn't really know what his working style was like. The only times when we cooperated together was when he was trying to sell stuff and I gave him advice like “I’ll talk to A B and C since I’m close with them. You talk to X Y and Z, they’re interested in this kind of stuff”. Or when we were arranging to meet up and he’d ask questions like “Where do I go? What should I do? Where and when should we meet?” and I’d give him instructions so that he could get everything done by the time we met up and no time would be wasted.
    3. he was always working and heck he spent way more time working than me so I assumed that as long as he's working he must be on track
    4. we were always joking around when we were together so I didn't really pay much attention to his work
    5. he was working on a specialist area (which I totally failed lol) so when I DID peek at his work I had no idea what he was doing anyway

    ... It was only when I saw the results of his work that I was like "omg what has he been working on all this time?" and wished I could've overlooked his work. Then again, he probably would've rejected my help anyway, given his strong reaction to my comments about his bank statement and his spending. I didn't even mean to criticize him and couldn't understand why he got so angry. I'm not sure if it was a function thing, an intertype relation thing, or a personality thing that made him so sensitive to any hint of criticism from me.

    We also spent very little time together in real life and spent most of our time communicating over the internet because 1. I'd invite him to groups but he'd feel anxious in them while I felt safer in them 2. I was too busy running away from opportunities to be with him out of fear, like fear of being too happy with him and falling deeper in love and becoming more needy... only to be stabbed later on because his emotions and attitude towards me could flip in a heartbeat without warning. He was also always talking about the "other girl" he liked which got me jealous and sad and made it hard for me to trust him and commit to him enough to sacrifice my 101 commitments for him. It was weird in that I only took on 101 commitments in the first place because I was trying to distract myself from all the pain and sadness, and then when he approached me again and we spent time together I'd be happy and the world seemed to be alright and hopeful again, but when he brought up another opportunity to spend time together and it clashed with my social commitments, I would prioritize them over him because I never knew when he'd change his mind again and I wanted to keep them so that I always had something to fall back on just in case he did -- It seemed risky to bet my entire happiness on him.

    I don't know, I guess I really suck at showing someone I like them or something. In the early stages of our friendship when he was "just a friend" I would openly show my appreciation and affection for him in front of everyone like "omg I love that jacket of urs!!! <3 <3 <3" or "omg I love ur new hair color u look so cute! <3 <3 <3" and he'd be all ... But when I actually DID start liking him I'd act cool and hide my feelings and appreciation for him.
    Last edited by echan; 03-27-2013 at 01:30 PM. Reason: added some detail deleted some

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    I guess though its hard to say in her example what her ex was because I'm not sure if his behavior was due to comparing objects to an internal system of criteria or because he had made a direct evaluation of the object. I was mainly thinking that maybe his rigidity was related to an IxxJ temperament, possibly ExxJ. But ExxJ seems to be more focused on direct results and action and are rigid more in that sense as opposed to "Static-Fields" of and .
    I'm not sure if this helps but he once said that I pissed him off because I don't follow the instructions and because I break a lot of unspoken social "rules". The first instance was my crying over the dinner table -- he said it shows a lack of appreciation for the chef. Another one was when I dashed out of the room while we were in a group to cry in the toilet and he said "you're supposed to walk around everyone and then exit quietly, not rush out the door in a straight line"

    I can relate to this. It's good you try to point these things out, but it can be tricky because saying something like "you should be a bit more considerate some people have never experienced...." could be taken as chastising him and asserting moral superiority versus him being able to see that you want to help him by relieving his stress with others by being more mindful of how his actions effect others
    Oh um, I think my intention was to chastise him because he was being so very "helpful" and I thought he was consistently too harsh on people and someone should tell him that. I don't think he was particularly stressed about it himself. But on that note, maybe he wouldn't have been so sensitive to any unimagined or imagined criticism from others if he himself weren't so critical of others' flaws. y'nno, do unto others as you would have them do to you? Yeah, well. For some reason I was always trying to fix all his problems for him. I also had to delete my previous posts because I realized that shit I sound like I'm criticizing everything about him. Actually I found a lot of his flaws funny and often teased him for them. Just... not when he turned it around on me.
    Last edited by echan; 03-27-2013 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by echan View Post
    I'm not sure if this helps but he once said that I pissed him off because I don't follow the instructions and because I break a lot of unspoken social "rules". The first instance was my crying over the dinner table -- he said it shows a lack of appreciation for the chef. Another one was when I dashed out of the room while we were in a group to cry in the toilet and he said "you're supposed to walk around everyone and then exit quietly, not rush out the door in a straight line"
    Yea, that's , (fits with a ) which would tend to irritate a , as it's effectively an antipodal view of the world from the one they value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    Yea, that's , (fits with a ) which would tend to irritate a , as it's effectively an antipodal view of the world from the one they value.
    Yeah I got pissed off just reading that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    Yea, that's , (fits with a ) which would tend to irritate a , as it's effectively an antipodal view of the world from the one they value.
    Really? I have no idea where he pulled his judgments from but I thought "wtf how am I supposed to know these rules that no one told me about besides aren't you supposed to be asking me why I'm crying and doing something about it instead of being pissed off over something so trivial", and at the time I thought those rules were really arbitrary. Now that I think of it I think he had a point because he had gone through the trouble of cooking for me and probably felt underappreciated because I was crying over his food instead of smiling and saying thank you... or something, I don't know lol but anyway I countered with "I was crying over you because you were saying stuff that made me sad and besides you piss me off too why do you have to be so emo" and that pissed him off because he hated it when I called him an emo...

    I'm really confused because I always got the impression that he valued Si based on his hobbies and some statements he made about them, plus he was always the "mum" (though a crappy one) Anyway I pissed him off because I often didn't "behave" properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    Those 'unspoken social rules' sound more like a product of cultural influence, and not something proprietary to Fe/Fi.

    For instance, it's difficult for me to envision most Americans concluding that "crying at dinner table = disrespect of chef"—sounds silly to me, at least. Though I can more readily imagine persons from Asian or Mediterranean descent getting pissy over that sort of thing.
    Yup you've nailed it lol. What are some of the behaviors that would better demonstrate whether someone is Fe or Fi?
    Last edited by echan; 03-28-2013 at 07:51 AM.

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    The difference between and may be seen as the difference between concentrating on the content of individuals (their current emotional state) or on the content of relationships between individuals (their like/dislike for each other, for example), respectively. You see how in that situation what you thought was important was people's feelings (in that particular moment yours), but what he thought was important was your relationship?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    The difference between and may be seen as the difference between concentrating on the content of individuals (their current emotional state) or on the content of relationships between individuals (their like/dislike for each other, for example), respectively. You see how in that situation what you thought was important was people's feelings (in that particular moment yours), but what he thought was important was your relationship?
    It's hard for me to analyze and understand what goes on inside his head but I'm not quite sure how breaking social rules affects our relationship... I'm so confused lol.
    I can't even go any further every time I try to understand his emotions and reactions I just feel like I'm mindfucking myself lol
    Last edited by echan; 03-28-2013 at 11:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    Yea, that's
    No, it's not. It's likely that since you're not like this, you're attributing this to your so-called conflicting fxns. I can tell you this because I made this very mistake when I was new to socionics and had attributed "unspoken social rules" to Fe.

    (also fwiw it sounds like so-instinct in enneagram.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    This I find strange, being from a very macho place -- makeup on men is usually a huge shameful thing. But it kind of ties in with the mask stuff you are talking about -- he seems very image conscious and this I'd associate to the cleanliness and orderliness. He seems to want to over control his image and events around him and has panic attacks. I think this is a fault, and maybe he would feel better if he learned to occasionally just make the best out of a shitty situation. You know laugh at himself and not always have to spend so much time fixing himself up and freaking out about things.
    Oh, the makeup is a cultural thing. But yeah, I spent a few months in denial because it was difficult for me to reconcile to the fact that I was falling for a sensitive emo who had owned more makeup and cosmetics than me and was overall more of a woman than I am. I mean, I thought I liked strong ambitious people with ideals and had the same values as me. Then I went from thinking "god what a woman " to gradually thinking "lol he's such a woman " and becoming amused/mesmerized by his movements/speech and the whole gender reversal. The funniest gift he gave me was an eyebrow pencil actually lol wtf I still don't know what to do with it.

    You're right about the image control thing though, I think it stemmed from childhood issues and those are difficult to grow out of. I tried to help him by reassuring him that he was beautiful with or without the makeup, sacrificing my pride and giving him my love by saying the "I <3 U" words very very earnestly, and then giving him a hug, which is the most I've ever done for anyone because it's so contrary to my nature. However it seemed to just puff up his vanity instead, because he started looking very confident and proud in his subsequent photos all of a sudden in a "I'm the king of the world" way. And it backfired on me because he stopped talking to me after that and when he did reply, he'd talk to me like I was a stranger, and I felt like I'd been used all along to boost his ego. He also misunderstood my intentions and thought I wanted sex when I hugged him I was told later on that girls should never confess to guys, since guys like to play games and will lose their respect for you and throw you away if you're too easy to get...

    Lol he may have meant that positively, like he trusted you so much he felt like your bond extended very far into the past.
    Oh I'd like to think that. Sadly he said that in response to my question, "do you even remember me still?" since he was being so cold and formal with me. So I took it as meaning "you feel like a friend of the past life, I can hardly remember you now"

    Yea sounds young, I don't think he was personally trying to dodge helping you out but maybe thought he was being constructive by relieving your stress by suggesting doing something fun. Still likely this came from his own personality trait to avoid doing tedious stuff in order to have more fun. Something kind of seems Fe about this and maybe a lack of Se.
    That would be a positive way of looking at it. I thought he was deliberately putting emotional distance because he'd been denying practical help that he used to offer -- tidying up my room, advising me on what to wear, etc.

    Personally, just looking at my messy room was a source of stress and no matter how much fun I had outside the stress remained as long as the mess was still there. Not sure if he knew that.

    I don't know about the sexual stuff, that sounds like joking -- but I wasn't there to see. On the lack of apologizing... yes I agree whole-heartly that this is the problem. Basically if someone is important to you, you have to be able to take the occasional ego-hit and work with them -- its me and you not me and my.
    I think I can tell when someone just likes making sexual innuendos and when they say/do something and expect a response from you... But eh maybe I was making too much of a big deal out of it.

    In the end, I think I just wasn't important to him.

    Unfortunately it sounds like running away from it was a good option, he may just have to learn the hard way and you have your life to live. On my end I think I learned a lot on what not to do from reading about it, although I'm not the best source for characterizing your relationship in terms of socionics -- where able I provided my thoughts on socionics.
    Your post has been enormously helpful and a real eye-opener so I'm glad if you learned a little something from reading my long ass posts

    It's okay if you don't necessarily characterize the relationship socionically, I just wanted opinions on what went wrong in the relationship, really. I also wondered if it could've been Supervision at play because he was so sensitive to my criticism. I myself was not so hurt by his criticism, except when he said it with a disdainful look which made me think that he didn't like me anymore, and that was the only thing that hurt so much really.

    I think the guy is young and a little self-focused, hasn't really learned to love.
    Yeah, I always thought he needed to learn to love himself before he could learn how to love others. Sadly I tried to fill up his hole by throwing my own heart in it and got sucked into the deep pit of emo lolz.
    You definitely shouldn't beat yourself up too much because what you gave him was probably better than nothing and leaving him may be what's needed for him to grow outside his self-focused world.
    Thank you so much for this, I needed to hear this more than anything because I've been beating up myself over it for years and apologizing over and over again for almost as long. The experience was emotionally scarring and made me doubtful about my ability to handle close relationships and love someone without hurting them lol.

    But there were also very good and funny moments and even the bad ones have taught me things I didn't know about myself.

    And I guess I did give him a lot... everything except for my freedom lol

    Anyway just writing about the relationship has helped to put a lot of things in perspective too, I think the problems on my end were:
    - fear of commitment and being tied down (though in this case it was probably for a good reason because that would mean giving up my own life for someone who had the power to destroy it)
    - fear of being too happy
    - fear of love shit lol
    - denying and running away from emotions
    - too independent and reluctant to ask for help
    - trying too hard to act tough instead of admitting to being needy and weak
    - spending too much time with too many guy friends? or just talking too much about them? lol... I don't know...
    - being involved in too many clubs, most of them with lots of hot guys. I guess it takes shitloads of self-confidence to be able to stomach this.
    - not showing enough appreciation and affection
    - leaving the (wo)man to do all the cooking and dishwashing? (he didn't want me to help out because I was so bad and I just ran off thinking "whee~~" )
    - inconsistent display of feelings, not being straightforward enough
    - too quick to assume the worst intentions, misunderstandings -> stupid revenge plans that always backfire
    - taking someone for granted and treating them like shit thinking they're always gonna be there for u... until they're gone
    - overly critical? mean?
    - taking the initiative romantically too soon and too much? lol neva gonna confess again

    In short, I had emo issues he had emo issues, differences were irreconciliable and a mega emo explosion occured. Oh and like you said, we were young (and stoopid). Whatever the intertype relation is I'll probably just be more careful next time.

    Anyway, it's been great hearing from all of you, you're really lovely people.

    PS. My impression of him was ESFj FeMO subtype but I was trying to minimize bias when typing him and the relationship so yeah lol...
    Last edited by echan; 03-29-2013 at 05:17 AM.

  34. #34
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    @Radio It's not the unspoken social rules I'm attributing to . It's the fact that his concern was directed first toward people's disposition toward one another ("lack of appreciation for the chef"), rather than their internal state(she was crying).
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