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Thread: North Korea prepares for War

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    Default North Korea prepares for War

    It looks like things just got real unless its a bluff or the media is blowing it out of proportion, but we'll have to wait and see what happens. If North Korea is serious, then it's almost as if the country is committing suicide while taking others with them.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03...clear-threats/
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    To say the media is blowing it out of proportion... Well the media is all lies, but they're the same ones that make the events happen. Whatever they report, that's what ends up happening...

    This whole thing is propaganda. It's part of a script which is now unfolding. The economy edges closer to collapse, we continue to patchwork it in place... Now this. Things just got alot more complicated. ALl I know is the ultimate goal is globalization of government.

    It was widely televised that Kim Jong Un met with Dennis Rodman about a week ago, and that they are 'good friends'... It was some message at the fringe black community. It is common for the media to manipulate public opinion right before events like these occur... For example Angelina Jolie adopting a child from every country that gets carpetbombed a month later. But why target to influence fringe black males in favor of Kim Jong, I don't really know. I know there is a big anti government conspiracy following amongst that crowd. Well this would just stirr up polarity amongst the Obama supporters. Possibly to help justify an aggressive action by the united states in the minds of Obama supporters.

    It could just be to create fear in the public, which the government likes to do, but this follows the same pattern of the north african / middle eastern conflicts of last year so I kinda doubt it's a bluff... but who knows.
    Last edited by rat1; 03-12-2013 at 07:13 AM.

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    This is actually extremely relevant to the application of strategy. What is North Korea hoping to gain from their campaign? I have heard very little about this because I don't watch a lot of world news shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    This is actually extremely relevant to the application of strategy. What is North Korea hoping to gain from their campaign? I have heard very little about this because I don't watch a lot of world news shows.
    Hmm, historically North Korea receives benefits from playing these games from two parties, Chinese Material & Diplomatic support and Western Material support when it 'stops playing'.

    However, it seems the Chinese are becoming much less tolerant of actions which can threaten their trade relations.

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    it would be funny if all this meant that the new leader kid is smarter than he looks and purposely set his country up to be invaded and reformed by outside forces way more competent at doing so than anything he could muster from within the nation's rotten borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Hmm, historically North Korea receives benefits from playing these games from two parties, Chinese Material & Diplomatic support and Western Material support when it 'stops playing'.

    However, it seems the Chinese are becoming much less tolerant of actions which can threaten their trade relations.
    So you think its all posturing and if China and the West just ignored North Korea they would stop?

    It's actually pretty disturbing to consider a world superpower using "nuclear testing" as an excuse to create fear and drama so that they can receive benefits. Although its not the first time in the history of the human species that someone has resorted to intimidation to receive benefits -- its incredibly common, in fact the entire era of the middle ages involved an attitude of building castles and basically raiding other lord's keep. If you were a serf, you got the short end of the stick, and most people were serfs... so yea that really sucked, and if you were a lord you were likely going to get killed in battle (because everyone wanted to kill the king -- like chess) or get killed as a result of serfs revolting if you had strict policies and most lords/king/royalty did fight battles and oppress serfs so it was a mutual crap shoot or crap chute???? I don't know but it wasn't good. North Korea is similar to this kind of thing... although admitedly I haven't studied it in detail, it does seem like it is stuck in an unhealthy and non-progressive social state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    So you think its all posturing and if China and the West just ignored North Korea they would stop?

    It's actually pretty disturbing to consider a world superpower using "nuclear testing" as an excuse to create fear and drama so that they can receive benefits. Although its not the first time in the history of the human species that someone has resorted to intimidation to receive benefits -- its incredibly common, in fact the entire era of the middle ages involved an attitude of building castles and basically raiding other lord's keep. If you were a serf, you got the short end of the stick, and most people were serfs... so yea that really sucked, and if you were a lord you were likely going to get killed in battle (because everyone wanted to kill the king -- like chess) or get killed as a result of serfs revolting if you had strict policies and most lords/king/royalty did fight battles and oppress serfs so it was a mutual crap shoot or crap chute???? I don't know but it wasn't good. North Korea is similar to this kind of thing... although admitedly I haven't studied it in detail, it does seem like it is stuck in an unhealthy and non-progressive social state.
    When you drop all the pretense of 'progressive' and 'unhealthy' countries do whatever keeps the country churning. Do you believe that the US and Russian nuclear tests in the 50s were anything other than cock waving rhetoric between governments or that the French nuclear tests into the 80s were anything more than to maintain an illusion of french empire?

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    North Korea issues ludicrous threats of imminent annihilation so frequently that receipt of each new one is like sitting down to a Sunday chicken dinner with close kin. So this latest tantrum isn't exceptional in itself, and in fact it's wholly in accord with what the DPRK has established as normal diplomacy. What makes things interesting, however, is a growing desire to flex new muscles developed through apparent successes in nuclear weapon tests (the better to make fresh threats with), and also a need by Kim Jr. II to fortify his fledgling position before his military and his nation as legitimate successor to his family's dynasty. On the other hand, the country lacks missiles sufficiently sophisticated to reliably strike any but its closest neighbors, and grumbles of "drop North Korea" are becoming louder in certain circles of the Chinese government apparatus, to which NK owes its continued existence since policy and agricultural failures have prevented the Hermit Kingdom from being even approaching self sufficiency (Juche my ass). So this barking, barking, and barking dog does have teeth, but it's still securely held in place by a very short chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    When you drop all the pretense of 'progressive' and 'unhealthy' countries do whatever keeps the country churning. Do you believe that the US and Russian nuclear tests in the 50s were anything other than cock waving rhetoric between governments or that the French nuclear tests into the 80s were anything more than to maintain an illusion of french empire?
    Well you are assuming a bit much here, when I said progressive and healthy, I wasn't referring to USA, Russia, and France. I was just referring to an idea on what I think is the representation of a healthy step forward in social dynamics. It's not pretentious at all, but I will admit its subjective.

    Also I should mention I do think the US is more progressive in its policies on nuclear arms-- not because anything about americans makes them better people and more moral at the ground level than north korea, but because they have a different trajectory of history with nuclear arms. They've lived through the cold war, the red scare, and the political social movements in our politics concerned with that. They have more experience in that area so naturally I think they've progressed more than a new worldpower on the block with nuclear arms and technology.

    At the same time the US is connected to the world through the world political environment, this is were I think the US is mostly lacking in progress. There is a huge nationalistic bias among some americans and a need to play "policeman" and "world superhero" in world politics that can be dangerous. It could lead to the US becoming overwhelmed and weakened out of excessive ambition to "save the day", and it could lead to crippling the natural development of struggling sovereign nations. With nuclear policy there is still a lot of potential blowback to old mentalities of the cold war which could capitalize on the lack of world awareness and national pride, people may try to apply the same logic as used in iraq. This is a very bad move in my opinion as its far better to resolve conflicts without war/fighting rather than waste resources and the like, second if a conflict should arise its best to know the objectives for it, what can be gained and cleverly work strategies to achieve that clear vision, a war without a realistic vision, "a crusade or holy war" between differing ideologies almost always leads to negative results for both parties involved. In this case the US is looking to prevent North Korea from testing their warheads in bad zones and are also concerned about the potential for nuclear war -- this is easily handled diplomatically, and if not maybe some kind of strike force to cripple their ability to launch missles or setting up a blockade to prevent missle strikes (as opposed to a campaign of occupation). If it resulted in war then occupation would also be bad.... with a state like North Korea all you'd need to do is cut off the head of the snake and let politics and internal conflicts weaken the state and then lend assistance. Also North Korea's excessive pride and nationalism should be capitalized on for spying and information or baiting them into false targets via deception. Likely though war is not required, my point I guess is I hope tensions don't spark ideas from republicans to invade north korea in a manner similar to iraq. But yea also the US is more progressive I think mainly because of experience on the issue and now emerging nations are creating a revival of past eras and issues -- this is extremely common in world politics, as is war, so its worth study imo.
    Last edited by male; 03-11-2013 at 12:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    Well you are assuming a bit much here, when I said progressive and healthy, I wasn't referring to USA, Russia, and France. I was just referring to an idea on what I think is the representation of a healthy step forward in social dynamics. It's not pretentious at all, but I will admit its subjective.
    Politics is always about pretense, good government, bad government and the ideologies which people think supersede everyone elses ideologies - a bit like socionics I guess.

    North Korea has been rewarded for playing these games in the past from the international community with resources and receives a boost to internal stability by maintaining the illusion of a great and dangerous enemy for which 40% of the total population of the country have been drafted by force to 'fight'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Politics is always about pretense, good government, bad government and the ideologies which people think supersede everyone elses ideologies - a bit like socionics I guess.

    North Korea has been rewarded for playing these games in the past from the international community with resources and receives a boost to internal stability by maintaining the illusion of a great and dangerous enemy for which 40% of the total population of the country have been drafted by force to 'fight'.
    Yea no doubt there is a level of pretension and a facade to most public relations, even in miniscule every day things and the politics of small groups (like workplace politics, or neighborhood politics). I'm just saying I don't think calling North Korea unprogressive is pretense. I guess if you consider it as an objective judgment it is, but I meant it more as a subjective statement, mainly because I like to envision concepts of the future which defines what I think is progressive and unprogressive. I don't think dictatorships or social systems which place too much power in an executive head are very progressive and comparable to something like a feudal king or lord. While subjective-- my opinions aren't entirely unfounded either, they are based on analogies to historical facts.

    Anyways enough about "pretension".... I'll also mention that its a two way street many of the countries that tolerate and feed such attention seeking behavior are equally at fault. Although its a tough job, because everyone's afraid if they revoke the aid from these little games North Korea will flip shit and start attacking everyone rambo style. So its less like a willing feeding of North Korea and more like the bank teller jamming dollar bills into the bank robbers sack. Nuclear weapons are just another element to this game, and if things just continue without any intelligent resistance it may potentially just lead to North Korea wanting more and more and more, something over a much longer time needs to direct things away from that, because in this case satisifying their needs is only delaying war and not preventing it.

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    I heard that Communist Korea is about to unleash a devastating attack on godless people of U.S.A.

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    Oh, more war games. Constant political play, can be quite intricate and of course war does actually happen sometimes too. I doubt this is going to kick off anytime soon but i suppose a wild card is always possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    So you think its all posturing and if China and the West just ignored North Korea they would stop?

    It's actually pretty disturbing to consider a world superpower using "nuclear testing" as an excuse to create fear and drama so that they can receive benefits. Although its not the first time in the history of the human species that someone has resorted to intimidation to receive benefits -- its incredibly common, in fact the entire era of the middle ages involved an attitude of building castles and basically raiding other lord's keep. If you were a serf, you got the short end of the stick, and most people were serfs... so yea that really sucked, and if you were a lord you were likely going to get killed in battle (because everyone wanted to kill the king -- like chess) or get killed as a result of serfs revolting if you had strict policies and most lords/king/royalty did fight battles and oppress serfs so it was a mutual crap shoot or crap chute???? I don't know but it wasn't good. North Korea is similar to this kind of thing... although admitedly I haven't studied it in detail, it does seem like it is stuck in an unhealthy and non-progressive social state.
    All the news is is fear mongering and intimidation... It's propaganda. We really have no idea what North Korea is thinking, and it's almost a certainty Kim Jung Un is one of our pawns, just like his father, Osama and Sadam were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratfugue View Post
    All the news is is fear mongering and intimidation... It's propaganda. We really have no idea what North Korea is thinking, and it's almost a certainty Kim Jung Un is one of our pawns, just like his father, Osama and Sadam were.
    Yea well there media has a share of negative bias as well http://www.popgive.com/2010/03/anti-...rom-north.html. Although no doubt to I agree that the US news is very fear mongering and creates a view of people that are afraid. Much in the same way the North Korea propaganda displays Americans as brutal savages -- pretty much all the images imply either murder, torture, rape, forcibly seizing people's land/property, etc... the theme is that the west is out to destroy their culture. The fact people live in isolation (due to cultural censorship or xenophobia) and are taught to fear the other tribe is primarily the source of the conflict at a deeper level I think.

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    These maniacs like Osama and Sadam, who work for our CIA, their whole purpose is to create fear...9/11 was done to create fear. Fear of terrorism motivated the usa to go to war. North Korea puts fear in us, and we put fear in them too... we must be allies. We must be collaborating. We're the ones who put this regime into power. Toward what end, that's the real question.
    Last edited by rat1; 03-11-2013 at 05:34 AM.

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    Yea its part of the common fear complex, but its more like a mutual observation than it is a literal alliance -- people may think your are a conspiracy theorist if you assert they are literal allies. Their alliance is built on mutual fear and observation, not a direct phone line where they chat and plot how to impose things on the masses.

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    Oh no, it's a direct phone line. We are literally allies plotting to control the masses. Just like we literally bombed our trade centers. That part is conspiracy fact. Why did we bomb them? To convince the masses to go to war in iraq / afghanistan. Literally what you say, Osama / whoever he works for and the united states (they're the same entity) collaborating to influence the beliefs of the masses toward a certain end. The rest you can piece together if you have any common sense. And I still wonder where it's all headed.

    Like we are going to fight a war in korea to place this regime in power and then the leadership we place there "goes bad"... same story as with Sadam... what a screw up which seems to happen to us alot.

    In the words of George Bush, fool me twice shame on.... shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again.

    You should realize that fear is how the government controls its citizens. And when the fear is a sham, it's just become manipulation at that point.

    As a rule of thumb, automatically assume everything you see in the national news is a lie or manipulation of some kind... Not because you are paranoid. This is just almost always the case. Even Dennis Rodman meeting Kim Jong.
    Last edited by rat1; 03-11-2013 at 05:56 AM.

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    Please do yourselves a favor and spend an hour or two reading about Juche, NK's "military first" policy of recent years, deforestation in NK and its implications for agriculture and winter heating, and the DPRK's relationship with China as a fraternal brother in communism and as a dependent trade partner.

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    Kim Jong Un isn't the strongman his father and grandfather were. He's trying to appease to both sides of an internal struggle between the WPK and the military elite. This can be seen when he was first announced Kim Jong Il's successor, when he made moves toward extending the number of "Free-Market Zones", on China's imposition of course, but then turned around and derailed the project because the military "strongly advised" against the "security issues" such economic moves presented.

    Kim Jong Il was firm in his anti-imperialist stance, owing to his fathers legacy as a heroic figure in the Communist movement, that he inherited and felt an obligation to uphold. This has not passed down to Un, and the pressure coming from the military is posing him to take steps otherwise considered imperialist, if they are to make any pre-emptive strikes against the south.

    On that note, lets be careful in denoting the country as "Communist", they arent:

    “Until now, we Marxist-Leninists were of the opinion that between the capitalists of town and country on the one hand, and the working class, on the other hand, there is an irrencilable antagonism of interests. That is what the Marxist-Leninist theory of the class struggle rests on. But according to to Bukharin’s theory of the capitalists’ peaceful growth into socialism, all this is turned upside down, the irreconcilable antagonism of class interests between the exploiters and the exploited disappears, the exploiters grow into socialism … One thing or the other: Either Marx’s theory of the class struggle, or the theory of the capitalists growing into socialism. (Josef V. Stalin: ‘The Right Deviation in the CPSU (B)’, in: ‘Works’, Volume 12; Moscow; 1955; p. 32, 33).
    As opposed to Korea's stance:

    “The capitalist elements still remaining in town and country will have to be … remoulded along socialist lines, instead of expropriating them”. (Kim Il Sung: ‘Every Effort for the Country’s Reunification and for Socialist Construction in the Northern Half of the Republic’, in: ‘Works’, Volume 9; Pyongyang; 1982; p. 201).

    “The socialist transformation of private trade and industry … proceeded in close combination with the remoulding of men, with the result that private traders and manufacturers were reshaped into socialist working people”. (Kim Han Gil: op. cit.; p. 387).

    “Since our Party adopted a policy of transforming capitalist traders and manufacturers peacefully, instead of expropriating them, the form of class struggle could not but assume a specific character. Class struggle attendant on the socialist transformation of capitalist trade and industry was unfolded mainly by means of persuasion and education”. (‘Socialist Transformation of Private Trade and Industry in Korea’; Pyongyang; 1977; p. 26).
    Just because someone says something, doesn't make it true.
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    North Korea is a puppet of the International system. They are only shouting war for their own domestic propaganda purposes, whilst licking the boots of the U.S. and China in private. The U.S. can then use the warmongering for its own domestic propaganda purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    North Korea is a puppet of the International system. They are only shouting war for their own domestic propaganda purposes, whilst licking the boots of the U.S. and China in private. The U.S. can then use the warmongering for its own domestic propaganda purposes.
    This reminds me of the plot of the movie Wag the Dog. It is definitely an interesting theory regardless if it is true or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korpsy Knievel View Post
    Please do yourselves a favor and spend an hour or two reading about Juche, NK's "military first" policy of recent years, deforestation in NK and its implications for agriculture and winter heating, and the DPRK's relationship with China as a fraternal brother in communism and as a dependent trade partner.
    Looks nasty...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    Kim Jong Un isn't the strongman his father and grandfather were. He's trying to appease to both sides of an internal struggle between the WPK and the military elite. This can be seen when he was first announced Kim Jong Il's successor, when he made moves toward extending the number of "Free-Market Zones", on China's imposition of course, but then turned around and derailed the project because the military "strongly advised" against the "security issues" such economic moves presented.

    Kim Jong Il was firm in his anti-imperialist stance, owing to his fathers legacy as a heroic figure in the Communist movement, that he inherited and felt an obligation to uphold. This has not passed down to Un, and the pressure coming from the military is posing him to take steps otherwise considered imperialist, if they are to make any pre-emptive strikes against the south.
    Obama was very anti war when he first entered office. Very strongly against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the sentiment which ushered him into office. And that's the polarity between democrats and republicans in this country. One side is militarily aggressive and economically conservative, the other has diplomatic foreign policy and is economically liberal.. Every 4-8 years as a new president is elected, the flow shifts back and fourth.. And Obama withdrew troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, but in behind them came massive influxes of our bailout money channeled into building up the infrastructure of corporate empires in those locations. So president Obama and George Bush are two sides of the same coin. And I hope you have realized by now that president Obama is a manipulative liar.

    This is why it doesn't come as a surprise when Kim Jong backs off his fathers aggressive stances... It's all a political art of waxing and waning. He is still playing by the same rules as his father, whatever those actually were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratfugue View Post
    Obama was very anti war when he first entered office. Very strongly against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the sentiment which ushered him into office. And that's the polarity between democrats and republicans in this country. One side is militarily aggressive and economically conservative, the other has diplomatic foreign policy and is economically liberal.. Every 4-8 years as a new president is elected, the flow shifts back and fourth.. And Obama withdrew troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, but in behind them came massive influxes of our bailout money channeled into building up the infrastructure of corporate empires in those locations. So president Obama and George Bush are two sides of the same coin. And I hope you have realized by now that president Obama is a manipulative liar.

    This is why it doesn't come as a surprise when Kim Jong backs off his fathers aggressive stances... It's all a political art of waxing and waning. He is still playing by the same rules as his father, whatever those actually were.
    Every president who has ever held office was a manipulative liar. What's your point?

    As for Kim Jong Il's "aggressive stances"... what were those exactly? North Korea hasnt been to war with anybody since the arm-stance.
    "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.".

  30. #30
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    LOL

    1:00pm war starts
    1:01pm gets nooked
    1:02pm war's over.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    i would never have guessed this place was home to 14 people who just randomly happened all to be qualified experts on the north korean diplomatic situation, what a fucking coincidence.

    for those of you for whom these are not the self-evident basics, though, here's a neat scary little info graphic:


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    You are a tool, Labster.

    It didn't take a demolitions expert to convince me that the trade centers were a sham.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    Every president who has ever held office was a manipulative liar. What's your point?
    You say Kim Jong Un is negotiating... but there likely isn't an actual conflict between the two parties to negotiate over, just propaganda of one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    As for Kim Jong Il's "aggressive stances"... what were those exactly? North Korea hasnt been to war with anybody since the arm-stance.
    Aggressive posturing is not the same as being in a war. Of course it is fear mongering propaganda. The arm-stance is bullshit too... we put this regime there.
    Last edited by rat1; 03-12-2013 at 03:53 PM.

  33. #33
    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Here's a good intro article for those unfamiliar but curious about NK's continued psycho-political jiggery-pokery under Grandson Leader: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ening_new.html

    Labcoat, given your shrill appeal to expert opinion, I hope you've got something better to add than a fear-mongering illustration of mostly-unreliably missile systems and a whimsical salvation fantasy of neo-lib colonialism (white man's burden, old chap).

    There are four major issues that NK's rocket scientists and atom crackers have to solve before the country can pose a nuclear threat to any but its neighbors. The first three belong to the weapon delivery systems themselves (i.e. missiles, esp. long range ballistic types), which have a history of structural, propulsion, and guidance problems that have produced one failed launch after another. The fourth sits with the necessary miniaturization of warheads such that they're below the longer-range birds' payload limitations. The Taepodong series is plagued by these deficiencies and will remain unreliable at best until solutions for all those problems meet in the middle. Hence, at least in part, the latest round of saber rattling from Pyongyang, to provide NK more space and time to eliminate their engineering errors.

    Given that wars generally begin with a comedy of errors, the greater danger is not that NK will drop a nuke on American(-allied) soil in the next few years as their ICBM program matures1, but that that the tensions of conflicting international interests could cause a minor incident on the Korean peninsula to quickly spiral out of control and set the world's major powers at one another's throats2. The other humorous bit in all of this is that, barring human extermination from asteroid or other inexorable global catastrophe, I find at least limited nuclear attack (e.g. unanswered, unilateral theater nuke strike as in Nagasaki and Hiroshima) to be an eventuality, so if not boom today then boom tomorrow.

    1. Other hot prospects: enabling attacks on the West and its allies by transferring nuclear technology to its enemies, or detonation of a cargo container bomb on a ship in a major port city.
    2. Chemical and biological attacks are generally too localized to pose an existential danger to any but individuals, though their deployment against target populations could easily provoke a reprisal that precipitates a broader and perhaps even world war.

  34. #34
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    According to that graphic I'm out of range, so its all good...

  35. #35
    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    According to that graphic I'm out of range, so its all good...
    Unless you bounce to South America, don't expect that to remain the case after 2018 or so.

  36. #36
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    I still need to research this stuff in depth, but I noticed that all the large missles end in "DONG"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Anyways sorry for the retardation

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