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Thread: Can't see the forest for the trees

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    Default Can't see the forest for the trees

    • A man sets out to build a fence. He is a careful person and wants it to be level and attractive. He hangs a string between the posts for a guide so he can keep the top straight. The ground is uneven, so he measures and cuts each individual picket so it is exactly 1 inch off the ground. The work is done slowly and meticulously. When he is finished, the top of the fence is perfectly level and even. The bottom of the fence exactly follows all of the ups and downs in the yard and looks like a row of jagged teeth. The fence is level but not attractive. The man could see some, but not all, of the big picture. Which functions are in play in this fence-building story? (Not asking for fence-building tips, by the way.)

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    get glasses

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    That would be me.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    NTR
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Why isn't the fence attractive?
    Too perfect? Needs variety/imperfection?
    If something is too consistent, it is easy to pass by and overlook, even if it is "perfect."

    But yeah. I dunno about functions.
    Not sure it's function related.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    Why isn't the fence attractive?
    Too perfect? Needs variety/imperfection?
    If something is too consistent, it is easy to pass by and overlook, even if it is "perfect."

    But yeah. I dunno about functions.
    Not sure it's function related.
    The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.
    Sounds exactly like me. The shoveling thing could either come to me as an afterthought ("shit, I could/should have done that"), or I would have a specific reason why I chose not to do it that way.

    I haven't built a fence (yet), but the example is a great illustration of how I've dealt with many projects in the past.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Gilly's right, though. This could just be human nature more than anything.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.
    Or he could have just hammered the posts into the uneven ground until that the height was all the same. Less work overall.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    Or he could have just hammered the posts into the uneven ground until that the height was all the same. Less work overall.
    You guys are inventive, I'll give you that. But you're also "all talk and no work", so don't play all smart and shit. It gets on the nerves of those who actually do the job (your duals, duh!), mkay?


    *If practical reasons impose to have space between the fence and the ground, hammering the posts into the ground is not an option.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You guys are inventive, I'll give you that. But you're also "all talk and no work", so don't play all smart and shit. It gets on the nerves of those who actually do the job (your duals, duh!), mkay?


    *If practical reasons impose to have space between the fence and the ground, hammering the posts into the ground is not an option.
    The only reason I can think of is to let in strays and various other critters, like opossums. And let out pets if you have pets.
    But in order to not be annoying, I'll help with the hammering of the posts. Or something.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    That would be me.
    1. Dual notices the jagged tooth effect. 2. Dual gets Park a beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    The only reason I can think of is to let in strays and various other critters, like opossums. And let out pets if you have pets.
    But in order to not be annoying, I'll help with the hammering of the posts. Or something.
    Possums. UGH. It is so awful when you surprise each other out in your yard in the dark and they hiss at you.

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    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    The only reason I can think of is to let in strays and various other critters, like opossums. And let out pets if you have pets.
    I will think about those things when I build my ScarJo's fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by fen View Post
    But in order to not be annoying, I'll help with the hammering of the posts. Or something.
    That just goes without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    1. Dual notices the jagged tooth effect. 2. Dual gets Park a beer.
    Makes no sense.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post

    Makes no sense.
    What I was trying to say is that when your dual realizes you screwed up the fence, she brings you a beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    What I was trying to say is that when your dual realizes you screwed up the fence, she brings you a beer.
    A sharp dual will bring that beer and also

    a) take note of material conditions and contexts, then point out that keeping the butt-end of the boards at a distance from the ground will reduce their lifetime wear by water intrusion and particle accumulation via wicking water from grass and soil, so it's all good

    and/or

    b) say it's alright and suggestively plant a mental seed by pointing that the "error" could easily be disappeared with the planting of hedges, flowers, or other attractive vegetation around it.

    Further state c is conjectured as that wherein said sharp dual cracks her own beer and undertakes potential & actionable improvements to the fence under her own steam.

    State d is that in which she induces others to participate through the praxial example of c, with states e and onward following the previous and/or any another formally bullshitted course so whimsically excreted as to mark one's passage as a supposed human within and through the Wilderness.

    Socionick that and we'll have the material for a new card game.

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    Haikus
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    A sensor will be more likely to eyeball it and will come out nicer. This is why Mexican/builders etc. are all Alpha SF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    A man sets out to build a fence. He is a careful person and wants it to be level and attractive. He hangs a string between the posts for a guide so he can keep the top straight. The ground is uneven, so he measures and cuts each individual picket so it is exactly 1 inch off the ground. The work is done slowly and meticulously. When he is finished, the top of the fence is perfectly level and even. The bottom of the fence exactly follows all of the ups and downs in the yard and looks like a row of jagged teeth. The fence is level but not attractive. The man could see some, but not all, of the big picture. Which functions are in play in this fence-building story?
    basing off theory: process + tactical types (LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE)
    they devote more attention to the process and the selection of steps that they can undertake, and through this risk losing sight of the forest beyond the trees that they are so busy chopping down. i see this most often with LSEs but I may be just a tad biased in this evaluation

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    basing off theory: process + tactical types (LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE)
    they devote more attention to the process and the selection of steps that they can undertake, and through this risk losing sight of the forest beyond the trees that they are so busy chopping down. i see this most often with LSEs but I may be just a tad biased in this evaluation
    Should I retype myself as one if these types?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Should I retype myself as one if these types?
    LSI is always open if you have ever considered being Gilly's dual
    otherwise you cut through the extraneous bs pretty well to be anything other than SLI

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    Cutting through the extraneous bullshit... hmm.

    Gilly is interesting. He's like fire.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Si with a side of Te
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-01-2013 at 05:32 AM.

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    The thing that tends to attract my attention to Gilly is the huge difference in personalities. Whether we complement or ruin each other is yet to be discovered.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Pickets should all be the same length. He was right to leave a space between the bottom of the pickets and the ground to prevent water damage to the fence, but would've been much easier to either level the ground out more, if possible, or build the fence to rise and fall with the land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    how would estj loose sight of the forest for the trees if they are result/goal oriented and Te leading? maybe isfp. or something else non-socionics
    LSE isn't result oriented - they are process, just like their duals the EIIs, so they invest into working out the in-between stages rather than surveying the results. I see this in old smilex's threads for example, the way he meticulously grinds through every socionical aspect. Being Te-leading (rational) would only exacerbate this.

    In general, I think it's more related to one's life experience, but speaking within the bounds of socionics I'd expect process tacticals to be most prone to getting into the mix of things while not keeping track of where it's all going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    ^ i think you misunderstood me - i'm not talking about reinin. just behavior aspects of estj i've noticed, in general and not necessarily related to example in the op
    oh I have made some different observations then, from my pov their activities can seem too myopic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    to prevent water damage to the fence
    That's what I thought. Wood swells and loses its strength in water very quickly... unless it's marine grade plywood or some other specially treated resilient material.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    LSE isn't result oriented - they are process, just like their duals the EIIs, so they invest into working out the in-between stages rather than surveying the results. I see this in old smilex's threads for example, the way he meticulously grinds through every socionical aspect. Being Te-leading (rational) would only exacerbate this.

    In general, I think it's more related to one's life experience, but speaking within the bounds of socionics I'd expect process tacticals to be most prone to getting into the mix of things while not keeping track of where it's all going.
    YES

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    Didn't you ask for your account to be deleted? What happened?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    That's what I thought. Wood swells and loses its strength in water very quickly... unless it's marine grade plywood or some other specially treated resilient material.
    yes, pressure treated lumber can be used to prevent warping and rotting, but you also have to keep in mind that water could pool around the fence, making a mess of the yard. It's much better to allow run-off to pass under.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Didn't you ask for your account to be deleted? What happened?
    Jadae and I broke up and this has always been MY thing, so I came here for me, my comfort. I love the Si thanks.

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    I'm not sure how type even relates to building a fence. "Not seeing the forest for the trees" is a big picture concept, I get that, but you either know how to build a fence, or you don't. If you're not all that experienced and DIY it is common to make mistakes, that's all this seems like it was. If someone points it out to him, he probably won't make it again with a similar project. My guess is that he does something unrelated for a living; nothing wrong with that, but at least he got out there and built it, ugly or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    yes, pressure treated lumber can be used to prevent warping and rotting, but you also have to keep in mind that water could pool around the fence, making a mess of the yard. It's much better to allow run-off to pass under.
    Yeah, that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    I'm not sure how type even relates to building a fence. "Not seeing the forest for the trees" is a big picture concept, I get that, but you either know how to build a fence, or you don't. If you're not all that experienced and DIY it is common to make mistakes, that's all this seems like it was. If someone points it out to him, he probably won't make it again with a similar project. My guess is that he does something unrelated for a living; nothing wrong with that, but at least he got out there and built it, ugly or not.
    And he probably did it a lot better than some random "experienced" guy he could've payed to do it.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Jadae and I broke up and this has always been MY thing, so I came here for me, my comfort. I love the Si thanks.
    I don't care.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post

    And he probably did it a lot better than some random "experienced" guy he could've payed to do it.
    good golly, it would cost an arm and a leg to hire it out, probably pay for 4 people while only one or two actually does the work.

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    Putting so much work and effort into a fence that is less than functional (The raised ground would have a shorter fence, which would make it easier for cattle to presumably jump over) and is also less than pleasing to the eye (Non functional, and ugly.)
    Easy Day

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    Fenceman is either IJ or IP temperament. So that would rule out LSE. He is very judicious, slow and careful in everything he does. I would consider ILI for him, but his values seem more delta than gamma. I don't think he is a sensor - I say that because his general vibe is that he needs to control his physical environment (that is in opposition to him.) He is more about protecting himself from the elements, rather than understanding, enjoying them and working with them. I have had the idea that SLIs feel a harmony with their physical world and are good with the tools they need to accomplish their work, so I ruled out SLI. He is not a beta. I wish I understood process and result better, but on the surface, process seems correct. I wonder if he is EII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    A sensor will be more likely to eyeball it and will come out nicer. This is why Mexican/builders etc. are all Alpha SF.
    He is half Mexican, therefore the fence is half straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    I wonder if he is EII?
    If he seems overtly (but subtly?) guarded and "in need of control" of his physical environment then he's probably not SEI either. But why EII > LII?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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