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Thread: The Truths

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    Default The Truths

    Everybody's the hero of their own story
    No one casts themselves as the evil villain of their own story. "Listen, I'm not the bad guy here."

    A good analogy is an actor getting cast to play the grave digger in Hamlet who when asked what the show is about, will say "oh it's called Hamlet and it's about the grave digger who met the prince."

    Do you have any moral truths?

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    Welcome back to socionics.

    Do you have any moral truths?
    I have deep seated desire to alleviate the suffering of others at times, defend people who can't defend themselves, and stop people from doing things that are inhumane. No truths beyond that really. Any truths would be situational and temporary.

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    You can't really take back what you say or do to others. That's the thing. And it's easy/lazy to destroy things. It takes a lot less effort to kill/destroy/hurt an entire room than it is to build it up and save it. that's why heroes are so respected. They really do earn it.

    And it's fun to inflict pain, at least at first. the truth its depressing but when you are crashing into everybody's inner bunny and smearing the blood on the walls, it probably feels like you are alive. However, I feel like a rat if I go too far- damn guilt and empathy.

    If you do something abusive and antisocial people keep track of it. Of course sometimes people might just be taking things too sensitively but an abuser is going to use that loophole as an excuse to continue their destruction. Redemption is earned, only the person that hurt you has the power to take it away. That's why I'm really impressed when people genuinely apologize.

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    "Luck and temperament rule the world."

    A ridiculously apparent truth when it comes to warfare, politics and markets. To a lesser extent it is true for day-to-day life - as chance doesn't always play a massive role in mundane matters.

    "The heart has its reasons that reason ignores."

    Basically saying that by pure reason alone you can not know what it is you want, while at the same time adding an element of mystery to human existence. And if there are two things I love about moral philosophy, it is emphasising the mystery in being and intelligently limiting the scope of reason.

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    I don't get what Prince Hamlet has to do with morals unless you consider murder moral. Maybe I misread that and you allude stricte to the Christian act of burying people according the doctrine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I don't get what Prince Hamlet has to do with morals unless you consider murder moral. Maybe I misread that and you allude stricte to the Christian act of burying people according the doctrine.
    I should explain how I have observed this to work: if Maritsa says a round face is SEE, then it's SEE. Similarly, if Maritsa thinks hamlet quotes are moral truths, they are moral truths. Get with the program absurd!

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I should explain how I have observed this to work: if Maritsa says a round face is SEE, then it's SEE. Similarly, if Maritsa thinks hamlet quotes are moral truths, they are moral truths. Get with the program absurd!
    Neither did she quote Hamlet or is her post specifically about Hamlet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    Neither did she quote Hamlet or is her post specifically about Hamlet.
    Yep, So?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Yep, So?
    I just wanted to clear that up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I just wanted to clear that up.
    Good show sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I should explain how I have observed this to work: if Maritsa says a round face is SEE, then it's SEE. Similarly, if Maritsa thinks hamlet quotes are moral truths, they are moral truths. Get with the program absurd!
    Again, I don't really know what round face has to do with this thread and where has been uttered, I have no clue??? Besides, this thread is called "The Truths" implying moral ones, but none uttered so far, are moral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Again, I don't really know what round face has to do with this thread and where has been uttered, I have no clue??? Besides, this thread is called "The Truths" implying moral ones, but none uttered so far, are moral.
    "The truths" can be considered "moral" in the sense of being descriptions of the moral character of humanity. These are the sorts of moral descriptions you get from the French Moralists and certain Roman philosophers and poets. Although over time the use of the word moral to describe this way of thinking has become less popular, but it is still imo valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    "The truths" can be considered "moral" in the sense of being descriptions of the moral character of humanity. These are the sorts of moral descriptions you get from the French Moralists and certain Roman philosophers and poets. Although over time the use of the word moral to describe this way of thinking has become less popular, but it is still imo valid.
    Oh, you mean proverbs not tied to any kind of moral code then. Okay, fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Oh, you mean proverbs not tied to any kind of moral code then. Okay, fine.
    Traditionally the French Moralists and Romans tied them to living the good life and generally proverbs/writings like these naturally lead to matters of how to live - but they don't lead to anything as strict as a moral code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    Traditionally the French Moralists and Romans tied them to living the good life and generally proverbs/writings like these naturally lead to matters of how to live - but they don't lead to anything as strict as a moral code.
    Yeah, they don't. They mostly deal with social behaviour, the ones from under the pen of these French Moralists. They deal with questions like what is acceptable, what makes a man boring in some social circles?

    Savoir-vivre in short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Yeah, they don't. They mostly deal with social behaviour, the ones from under the pen of these French Moralists. They deal with questions like what is acceptable, what makes a man boring in some social circles?

    Savoir-vivre in short.
    It depends on the author, some are also into passion, ego (self-love), success and existentialist sounding questions.

    For example these guys are less into the polite society scene:

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Luc_de_...e_Vauvenargues
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fran%C3..._Rochefoucauld

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    You think what he [Rochefoucauld] had to say about women applies nowadays?

    I don't mean socially influential women of whom he spoke and referred to, but the women you meet everyday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You think what he [Rochefoucauld] had to say about women applies nowadays?
    I believe he sometimes exaggerates the differences between men and women when talking about virtue and love, but he isn't generally wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I believe he sometimes exaggerates the differences between men and women when talking about virtue and love, but he isn't generally wrong.
    Didn't mean that. He often wrote/talked about women and how they should behave, that is, he referred to a moral quality and in the case of women, to chastity. So, I was interested whether or not you think it applies nowadays (maybe would apply), and moreover whether or not you agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ala View Post
    Everybody's the hero of their own story
    No one casts themselves as the evil villain of their own story. "Listen, I'm not the bad guy here."

    A good analogy is an actor getting cast to play the grave digger in Hamlet who when asked what the show is about, will say "oh it's called Hamlet and it's about the grave digger who met the prince."

    Do you have any moral truths?
    There are always exceptions.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Didn't mean that. He often wrote/talked about women and how they should behave, that is, he referred to a moral quality and in the case of women, to chastity. So, I was interested whether or not you think it applies nowadays (maybe would apply), and moreover whether or not you agree.
    There are very few explicit "shoulds" in his writing, he doesn't really tell anyone to do anything and he doesn't talk that much about chastity. But I do agree that women have issues surrounding beauty and attention, and that they can be made into morally dubious (and untrustworthy) individuals if they're not careful about the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    There are very few explicit "shoulds" in his writing, he doesn't really tell anyone to do anything and he doesn't talk that much about chastity. But I do agree that women have issues surrounding beauty and attention, and that they can be made into morally dubious (and untrustworthy) individuals if they're not careful.
    Do you believe this only applies to women? Or defines them in their difference?

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    There are very few explicit "shoulds" in his writing, he doesn't really tell anyone to do anything and he doesn't talk that much about chastity. But I do agree that women have issues surrounding beauty and attention, and that they can be made into morally dubious (and untrustworthy) individuals if they're not careful.
    You're correct, not explicitly that they should, but it is indicated, besides I don't think you speak French, do you?

    What I'm trying to say is, in every language you're going to find archaic words, out of use words, etc. Nowadays it means loyal, decent, and moral. Back in his days he referred to it as chastity when speaking about moral qualities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GemOfTroy View Post
    Do you believe this only applies to women? Or defines them in their difference?
    I don't think this only applies to women, but for some reason it appears like something women have to deal with the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You're correct, not explicitly that they should, but it is indicated, besides I don't think you speak French, do you?

    What I'm trying to say is, in every language you're going to find archaic words, out of use words, etc. Nowadays it means loyal, decent, and moral. Back in his days he referred to it as chastity when speaking about moral qualities.
    I don't speak French. The reason why I question chasity (as I understand it) as his focus is that there seems to be a wider and vaguer aim in his writing when mentioning women (or anything for that matter). I feel that if you use classical Christian terms to describe his writing you'll miss his point. He is purposely making the human condition look murky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I don't think this only applies to women, but for some reason it appears like something women have to deal with the most.
    I see the angle, but I'd term it differently. For instance, I'd suggest it applies to some sets of women more so than others and that it also applies to men but is emphasised differently ...focus on slightly different areas... pride maybe, appearance and fitness... are we going down the biology-society-survival route... i'm not sure.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by GemOfTroy View Post
    I see the angle, but I'd term it differently. For instance, I'd suggest it applies to some sets of women more so than others and that it also applies to men but is emphasised differently ...focus on slightly different areas... pride maybe, appearance and fitness...
    Yeah, I definitely agree.

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    i don't feel like ranting about all the reasons why but women are obviously more powerful than men, they commit suicide less, they have greater social support by others, they might be attacked more but they know how to better ask for help in the world whereas a man, wanting to be a manly man always falls down the darkness of his own abyss. I read somewhere that women can't help but think of most men as children they must protect. With the rare exception of their romantic partner that they choose as their own ideal version of masculinity. It just made a lot of sense to me.

    And according to the book the frality myth men might not even be so much stronger physically. poor men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I don't speak French. The reason why I question chasity (as I understand it) as his focus is that there seems to be a wider and vaguer aim in his writing when mentioning women (or anything for that matter). I feel that if you use classical Christian terms to describe his writing you'll miss his point. He is purposely making the human condition look murky.
    Well, him being himself Roman Catholic and living in the times of absolute monarchy, questionable being whether or not he had been influenced by Machiavelli, I think I'll stick with modern day meaning of those moral qualities he talks about, providing that is going to make you at ease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Well, him being himself Roman Catholic and living in the times of absolute monarchy, questionable being whether or not he had been influenced by Machiavelli, I think I'll stick with modern day meaning of those moral qualities he talks about, providing that is going to make you at ease.
    I don't mean he is anti-Christian, he just isn't using strict classical Christian understanding (neither did Montaigne and he manged to get away with it). He does not appear to be saying morality for women = chastity, he has made the field broader. He is the opposite of containing character and personality in narrow definitions - just like Montaigne. Also Montaigne was Catholic.

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    Nobody intends evil for the sake of evil. There is no sane person who thinks, "I will do something evil today." That is why I am against the notion of the sinful nature of humans. All evils are either the result of ignorance, or the result of helplessness. I don't need to explain that many people who do evil believe at the time that they are doing good. And a person who says "I do not believe good and evil are important" are themselves ignorant of the importance of good and evil.

    Once again, the source of evil is ignorance or helplessness. The only way to fight evil is through education of good, and empowerment to do good.
    All the good are friends of one another. (Zeno of Citium)
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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I don't mean he is anti-Christian, he just isn't using strict classical Christian understanding (neither did Montaigne and he manged to get away with it). He does not appear to be saying morality for women = chastity, he has made the field broader. He is the opposite of containing character and personality in narrow definitions - just like Montaigne. Also Montaigne was Catholic.
    Yeah, I know, never implied you did. It seems his proverbs/maxims were written against Christian tradition, but that would be going too far without checking it. Funny, Nietzsche borrowed from him and is considered an anti-Christian moralist by some.

    Anyway, I'm off to drown myself now.
    Last edited by Absurd; 02-24-2013 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GemOfTroy View Post
    There are always exceptions.
    This thread isn't so much about finding the exceptions but recognizing the rules or better yet the processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ala View Post
    This thread isn't so much about finding the exceptions but recognizing the rules or better yet the processes.
    That is one of the rules. That was my point.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ala View Post
    Everybody's the hero of their own story
    No one casts themselves as the evil villain of their own story.
    I do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ala View Post
    Do you have any moral truths?
    One is the Hume's Guillotine. It makes me sceptical when truth is next to the word "moral".
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by GemOfTroy View Post
    That is one of the rules. That was my point.
    Oh, I misunderstood you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Everybody's the hero of their own story
    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    The heart has its reasons that reason ignores.
    i'd like to be more original but i think these two might be my only constants.

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