Blah! Critique this sucky dave super power video about Si/Fe Fi/Se!
Oh God, do i ever hate this video. The SEI is pretty clearly what dave is calling the ISFP - it is flipped from our system. The hippie girl which dave is calling a Fi/Se type is our SEI - the Si/Fe type. The woman cop is gamma. Is not this Meyers/Briggs stuff crappy?
Socionics -
the16types.info
i disagree
"the isfp, they have extroverted sensing so their not gonna like the facts and the details and do what they are told, they're gonna like to go out and do their own thing and play music and do art and go to Yosemite and do photography and stuff like this" i think this point stands for ISFj mainly since i don't think gamma SFs value education systems in general, but learn best through experience..... besides he said fitting into systems which is blatantly ti valuing.
"now look at the second function of the isfj extraverted feeling now thats really what ur gonna see of the isfj thats why alot of people think they're extraverts (same is said of ISFps) is because this big slap in the face of their tatoos their har color their wacky clothes their exagerate facial expression their over indulgence into your perosnal life (absouletly nothing to do with gamma) this is extraverted feeling" overall this holds perfectly for alpha sfs he even goes on to compare them to ESFJs.
i know its worded a little differently but still ,function wise, it holds.
You know what I found interesting -- how you mentioned the school system and SF... the american school system to me seems to be a combination of xNTx and xSxj -- Kind of a kersey rational/guardian mix. It's like job/corporate training for cube workers in the xSxj sense and the material is mainly xNTx in nature. There isn't much of a place for xSFx based development.
Further I don't think "fitting into" systems is a blatantly ti valuing thing, Ti types process information that is systematic and logical in nature, but they aren't robots they still will say criticize bad systems or refuse to fit into systems they think are poorly, built, developed, explained, and so forth. They don't just immediately conform to a system -- this is a bad stereotype imo, that Ti types are conformists.
Myers Briggs aside; have you looked into kiersey?Originally Posted by Saberstorm
instead of quadras like Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta and Clubs like ST,SF,NT,NF
kiersey divides things on the basis of dichotomies more heavily and develops ideas associated to those splits and fits things into 4 categories
- Guardians (xSxj), basically rational sensing types... they are concrete, down to earth, and orderly
- Artisans (xSxp), basically irrational sensing types... they are also concrete and practical, but more spontaneous and adventurous
- Idealist (xNFx), basically NF club... they are abstract, figurative, and emotion/feeling/ethic based. Their intelligence is called "diplomatic".
- Rational (xNTx), basically NT club... they are abstract, figurative, and logical/thinking/analytical/tough-minded/critical. Their intelligence is "strategic"
Guardians have a logistical intellect I think and artisans are something else.
Though in Kiersey the codename for the ISFj is "Protector Guardian" and the codename for the ISFp is "Composer Artisan".
Some of the ideas in your post integrate well with that system. The policewoman ISFj and the composer artist ISFp. This unfortunately also carries a slant that ISFp's are more liberal and ISFj's are more republican, by addressing the roles. In general Artisans in kiersey are seen as more liberal types due to their "free-spiritedness"... he explains the cultural phenomenon of the 60's (that liberal movement) as being an integration of artisan and idealist. I see with a lot of tech and corporate companies a huge integration of (xSxj) and (xNTx)... in many ways this seems to be the anti-thesis of the other movement.... and thus we get the hard debating tough-minded corporate republican who studied engineering and yells at people to get jobs and the liberal hippy hipster whatever that is all free spirited and like "you don't understand me" I'm going to take flight like a butterfly BS, yea love and individuality.
Socionics is much different, being from eastern europe there is probably a lack of exposure to our culture or a different slant on it. Gammas and Alphas are the main difference focused on here in socionics. Which involves comparing things such as valued functions and intertype relations. Both types are strong in SF (all sensing and ethical function), however a gamma will value Ni and Te and be threatened by Ne and Ti. And subsequently a similar analysis for alpha SF. The idea though is not that Ni is better than Ne, but its the interference created by Ne/Se.... Ne is only negative in so far that it disrupts the usage of Se (at least in theory). Why Se disrupts Ne but absolutely loves Ni, I've never really understood at a fundamental and elemental level, nor have particularly observed.
The idea from what I can tell on this forum is that "Se is so badass and tough and strong and will kick you ass" and "Ni is so prophetic, imaginative, strategic, and awesome" that they are naturally a good team... whilst "Ne is so random, unimportant, irrelevant, overly optimistic, rambly" that is obviously interferes with the Se's ability to kick ass and be buzz words like "Strong-Willed". This is also why most nerds and geeks who attend cosplay conventions and think japanese pop culture is cute will all get typed into being DELTAS and ALPHAS because they are so nerdy and irrelevant, while betas and gammas are taking care of business seriously while the old man delta types go for walks in the park and talk about their childhood and little baby alphas mentally masturbate all day long until there caregiver Si-mommy types interact with them (such a beautiful view of duality /sarcasm).
Ni works with beta in a way that immediately makes anyone who self-types beta entitled to being some soul-searching emo-artistic misunderstand prophet of poetry and truth, but there Se prevents them from being pussies, they will also kick your ass and then tell you about how you have a PoLR in Se. Ni works with gamma by making ENTj natural and superior strategists, able to conquer the hearts of women like a conquistador and bring there enemies down in the boardroom like a master of sun tzu strategy... its cause of the Ni. INTp's are similarly awesome but merely are more introverted and less action oriented, thinking ends on ends about stuff, reviewing the facts and then always being able to execute on things intelligently and without error (because they are masters of strategy). Other NT types like alpha NT's, cannot, they are merely conformist Ti types that mentally masturbate out ineffective systems and engage themselves with nerdy pursuits in an Fe-way that gets on all of productive gamma societies nerves.
Se with beta makes them both tough badasses... the ISTj is like a nazi, general, imperial grand admiral from star wars which is super conformist but effective and brutal. The ESTp is like a "I'm too cool for school, alpha male, that's misunderstood and soul-searching and is like -- I want to ride my motorcycle into the sunset and society doesn't understand my asshole domineering side but hopefully a dramatic emo NF will".... or some other banal stereotype. Se with gammas makes them all politician and effective in action moralists, they can bitch at you and then claim its there Fi that naturally makes them correct on EVERY MORAL ISSUE. And further they have more SE than you -- so you can't put it into ACTION. They are not only saints but they are warriors -- warrior saints, joan of arc style politicians. Any attempts to point out any criticism to their lack of logic will immediately result in whines to the effect of "Your conformist Ti is burning me at the stake you evil misognistic _____ (alpha, beta, delta, person I don't like)". Your ideology being imposed on my innocent saintly Fi is so unmerciful like an evil priest which values divine justice and conformity (Ti). It's ridiculous, like physicist Ti types are running around in troupes of gestapo and trying to jam their systems of belief down people's throat. It's probably just the FE, like those betas!
No the thing to keep in mind is that under no conditions is Ti ever about anything (1) Intelligent (2) Coherent (3) Logical (4) Useful (5) Moral. No there function is satan or at least functionally SATAN to the gamma SF-- this is because the conflict between the quadras must be preserved so that reality is shaped into the image of MODEL A. A Ti-type could in fact try to criticize this aspect, but inevitably it will always lead to the Fi-type feeling the equivalent of darth vader force-choking them with Ti.
CONFLICTING FUNCTIONAL MODEL MUST BE PERSERVED!!!!!!!!!!!!! Must protect my valued functions, destory and survival/evasion of unvalued functions -- they are the equivalent to mind viruses. Because if anyone developed there weak functions, they would be narcissistic fools trying to play god against the power of MODEL A.
EMBRACE THE TIBERIUM DAWN!
JOIN UP TO GAMMA AND LEARN SOCIONICS TO DO YOUR PART!
[video=ijvTiDnWJLE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvTiDnWJLE[/video]
I agree on the hybrid stj/nt as the overall system of US schools. SF's and NF's, particularly P are relegated to underfunded and discouraged backwater positions. The most esteemed students tended to be INTJ/LSE/LIE for their combination of J and NT. Then you would have the smattering of other SJ's and NT's aka "slacker" ILI and ENTP. You see it every day in the whole STEM argument that uses circular logic to justify cutting underfunded programs. However the SF's and ST's get most of the privileged sports positions, and I guess the NF's and SF's get more social clubs, bad drama and band/orchestra. ISTps get shop class lol idk. IQ tests and the SAT are basically the same thing designed to grab certain NT talents placing less importance on others.
*It is a stereotype because it tends to be true though. Stupid Ti types conform and fit to stupid Ti systems. They have problems making leaps outside of such systems.
Last edited by jughead; 03-18-2013 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Terrible structure
Well i am still not over the caricature of the colorfully dressed facially expressive loud group minded Fe-ISFps I know and the car racing adrenaline junkie detached Se-ISXj freinds of mine
"IQ tests and the SAT are basically the same thing designed to grab certain NT talents placing less importance on others."
Really? i got 1830 on 2nd shot at SAT it doesn't seem that NT actually compared to other education systems like Cambridge IGCSE
Yes it's crap as hell, fucked up and very disturbing. Some people will take years to understand how crappy it really is, or they will never understand.
The myth is also kept alive because people sometimes choose to observe those DCNH subtypes that fit the MBTI description superficially. D-ESI could be seen as havingfor example (ISFJ). Or H-ESI will get typed ISFP. It's a mess.
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