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Thread: Analysis of Erotic Attitudes Revisted

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    Default Analysis of Erotic Attitudes Revisted

    I want to discuss/find solutions to the peculiarities that were brought up in this thread

    Originally Posted by Gilly

    INTj, ENTp, INFj, ENFp
    Paranoid Se: "Sometimes it feels like the world is working against me; I never have everything I need to accomplish my goals. I just want one person who will always help me, even when it feels like everyone else is working against me."
    Basic desire: To be supported

    ESFj, ISFp, ESTj, ISTp
    Paranoid Ni: "I feel like I don't have any purpose in the world; I wander through life without really being sure of what I'm going to do with myself. I just want one person to need me so I know that, if all else fails, I have something to live for."
    Basic desire: To be needed

    ISTj, ESTp, ISFj, ESFp
    Paranoid Ne: "I'm never sure of what I'm really capable of. I'm always ready for a challenge, but I'm never really sure whether or not I have what it takes. I need a person who can test me, and help me feel reassured about my abilities."
    Basic desire: To be evaluated

    INFp, ENFj, INTp, ENTj
    Paranoid Si: "I often feel like nobody values or needs me. I want someone who is willing to strive to attain me, so that I know that I'm worth fighting for."
    Basic desire: To be desired
    To me, from what I see, it seems that finding your dual is a large part of solving these problems. I am more interested in solutions that do not require another person, instead solutions that make you more complete individually, without a dual. What do you think?

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    Browsing the archives should help.
    @k0rpsy: Fuck off.
    Reason is a whore.

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    That was an interesting POW from Gilly, but I think paranoid Ni and specially Si are not so consistent as others.

    Te basic idea is I lack superego P -> I want someone who provides it for me. Paranoid Ne and Se are very coherent with this simple principle. Ni more or less (I want somone that makes my life meaningful) but I do not clearly see why lack of Si implies "I'm not valued". That sounds more like a J thing or alternatively Ni thing. Probably the idea was mixed with the fact that all of them are victims. Paranoid Si<->I have Ni, but that's not the original approach.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 02-07-2013 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Go fuck yourself.
    that's one way of solving the problem, lol


    I don’t think it’s possible to ever get over insecurities that are so deep, however building confidence, a positive self-image and independence may make you more resistant and when people start pushing your insecurity buttons you’re able to handle it. The key to a successful relationship would be getting over your own insecurities, with duality it happens naturally, with non-dual relationships you needs to make an effort.

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    Mwahahaha.

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    I like the idea behind this thread.
    paranoid ne: always having a goal to be working on reaching.

    the other ones are harder.
    paranoid se: invest in a personal assistant
    paranoid ni: join a church
    paranoid si: become a camwhore

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    General premise is overly broad and I don't land in the prescribed square so it's all a bit suspect. The idea of paranoid Px is also rather weird since it's Jx that construes, weighs, and discriminates.

    I had a look around and didn't turn it up but Gulenko has recommendations for enhancing weak functions, such as weightlifting to boost Se and (given the silliness of them, as I hazily recall) probably wearing a clock around your neck to heighten Ni. All in all his prescriptions sounded more useful in childhood when personal values are still being established, not so much beyond that point when a mentality is fairly well set. To wit:

    The fact that often in their earliest years children display an unmistakable typical attitude forces us to assume that it cannot possibly be the struggle for existence, as it is generally understood, which constitutes the compelling factor in favour of a definite attitude. We might, however, demur, and indeed with cogency, that even the tiny infant, the very babe at the breast, has already an unconscious psychological adaptation to perform, inasmuch as the special character of the maternal influence leads to specific reactions in the child. This argument, though appealing to incontestable facts, has none the less to yield before the equally unarguable fact that two children of the same mother may at a very early age exhibit opposite types, without the smallest accompanying change in the attitude of the mother. Although nothing would induce me to underestimate the well-nigh incalculable importance of parental influence, this experience compels me to conclude that the decisive factor must be looked for in the disposition of the child. The fact that, in spite of the greatest possible similarity of external conditions, one child will assume this type while another that, must, of course, in the last resort he ascribed to individual disposition. Naturally in saying this I only refer to those cases which occur under normal conditions.

    However:

    Under abnormal conditions, i.e. when there is an extreme and, therefore, abnormal attitude in the mother, the children can also be coerced into a relatively similar attitude; but this entails a violation of their individual disposition, which quite possibly would have assumed another type if no abnormal and disturbing external influence had intervened. As a rule, whenever such a falsification of type takes place as a result of external [p. 416] influence, the individual becomes neurotic later, and a cure can successfully be sought only in a development of that attitude which corresponds with the individual's natural way.

    And in regard to tampering with one's own mental plumbing, Jung gives this warning:

    As regards the particular disposition, I know not what to say, except that there are clearly individuals who have either a greater readiness and capacity for one way, or for whom it is more congenial to adapt to that way rather than the other. In the last analysis it may well be that physiological causes, inaccessible to our knowledge, play a part in this. That this may be the case seems to me not improbable, in view of one's experience that a reversal of type often proves exceedingly harmful to the physiological well-being of the organism, often provoking an acute state of exhaustion.

    Psychological Types - Chapter 10 Section A - Introduction

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    I am more interested in solutions that do not require another person, instead solutions that make you more complete individually, without a dual. What do you think?
    I think that's a mistaken thing. We all need to be touched in life, to feel loved- if not by a lot of people then at least one other person. You can't do it alone, alone is how you got in the mess in the first place. That's what a reasonably good spiritual guru told me.

    Having healthy relationships doesn't mean you 'lose yourself' or your own independence, in another person - it means you balance your own narcissism with theirs, creating a unity that is so strong it can't even be psychoanalyzed by really skilled sadists that just want to see the whole world burn. Otherwise you miss the mark and think you have everything figured out, when really you do not.

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    I don't really relate to the ENTp description, especially in terms of erotic attitudes lmao.

    However I do like the formulation and organization of groups and how it relates to PoLR.

    The PoLR is tricky though because the way I see it =>
    NT's and NF's in general will have a lack of sensing and therefore a need for it.
    One orientation of sensing is constructive and the other destructive.

    Thus a PoLR in Se is grouped with duality in which Si is involved
    While a PoLR in Si is grouped with a duality in which Se is involved

    The underlying point though is that intuitive types seek out sensing and sensing types seek out intuition.

    This is the entire basis behind duality, if you don't agree with this premise then the formulation of duality and conflict is a useless expression of your reality.

    I've read up on other systems and MBTI systems of intertype relations which completely contradict Socionics and its based on an entirely different theory on how people get along. Augusta just assumed all that intuitives need are the right type of sensing and all sensors need are the right type of intuition. Also this assumes that over time everyone is balanced out by their relations. It's hardly a system which even begins to look at the process of self-evolution and growth psychologically -- it assumes everyone's flawed by their weaker functions and that they have to pair up in little quadras named with creepy greek letters to survive or prosper.

    Building erotic attitudes off of this has also annoyed me as sex many times is just about the nature of attraction... I don't have to be duals with some woman to be turned on by her sexually, and its entirely possible that my dual will do something that turns me off. Say if my dual is a man, then psychologically the relationship is good I guess based on the fact I'm getting that Si and Fe I need, but I don't want to have sex with him. So isn't a bit ridiculous to assume that if its a woman then we obviously are sexually compatible?

    Not to mention the banal attitude that Se = tough and Si = soft. Hence all Gammas are tough because soft stuff hits their PoLR... give me a break. All intuitives are weak in terms of sensing, so purely in terms of Se-strength an Si-dom type would be superior to an ENTj... however somehow this shortsighted idea has taken flight. If dodos could fly....

    This Se = tough has even been used to imply that sexually Se/Ni duals are some kind of sick and twisted BDSM victim-aggressor bullshit. Like an Si-dom has never watched BDSM porn because instead they are watching the carebears have an orgy of soft plushness is ridiculous.

    Although admittedly I'd probably rather be Se/Ni in socionics than Ne/Si because of the even more disturbing concept of infantile-caregiver. This sounds like some disturbing fantasy of a child having sex with their nanny and has been used to characterize the view of some childlike INTj getting it on with some nanny soccer mom like ESFj, which I've always found rather disgusting and unappealing. How the fuck do you get that from merely using your Ti and Ne from time to time.

    I think the theory could vastly be improved. Real eroticism to me is different, sexually I have a variety of internal fantasies that I try to understand, some things turn me on and some things which turn on others turn me off. Why am I not turned on by the same things this other person is? Why do the things I am turned on by do it for me and maybe not for others? How do these relate to my psychology. That's the kind of thing I'm interested in and I don't think socionics provides the answers, just some crap about how I'm supposed to stick my dick into a bunch of Fe/Si egos and that I'm an infantile and they are the caregiver. Gross.

    I'm working on a system of erotic attitudes and archetypes based on color and mythology. It's barely gone anywhere, but I think I'd prefer that to socionics... maybe find some adaptation between the two systems. Socionics is a meh..... in this way for me, always has.
    Last edited by male; 02-07-2013 at 09:50 PM.

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    Building erotic attitudes off of this has also annoyed me as sex many times is just about the nature of attraction... I don't have to be duals with some woman to be turned on by her sexually, and its entirely possible that my dual will do something that turns me off. Say if my dual is a man, then psychologically the relationship is good I guess based on the fact I'm getting that Si and Fe I need, but I don't want to have sex with him. So isn't a bit ridiculous to assume that if its a woman then we obviously are sexually compatible?
    lol did you just include this paragraph to amuse me? It's a bit narc of me to assume that, but I never really thought you were one of the guys hiding his sexuality so I don't see the need to point out your heterosexuality. or maybe this forum is just so gay; straight guys have to come out of the closet as straight?

    This is off/topic and a derail, and you can pm me this if you want, but I just genuinely wonder why you care so much about homosexuality and stuff despite being a straight guy. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. Or were you just trying to be nice and inclusive because you respect our friendship? If so: aw, but you kinda got me intrigued via your motivations.

    I don't think all guys are trying to hide their gayness on here just some. For example I think invisiblejim is straight, I think hkkmr is straight, I think heath is straight. I think cpig is straight. (there are others)

    I'm really sorry I know im being a bit narc. (sarah silverman smile) But please understand my intentions are innocent in this. I think with your high empathy you can sense this.

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    I'm not gay but I don't want to be disrespectful to others of different orientations.

    That's the simple answer. I don't want that acceptance to be taken the wrong way, as in interest. When I'm being introspective about my own sexual attitudes I tend to pay attention a lot to my own heterosexual fantasies and the archetypes involved with such.

    Say a typical archetype is the guy slays the dragon, saves the girl, and they get together and have sex. This is a classic one and is usually parodied when the guy saves the girl, she won't have sex with him and things fall apart usually in a funny way. The creator of family guy did a cartoon about this that I found clever. But this is only the tip of the iceberg man! There is so much more to explore, and I'm having a blast thinking about it so I feel like I shouldn't be a dick towards other people and hinder them from exploring their own sexuality, even if its different from my own. Its kind of offensive I guess, looking at other people's sexuality as a thing to study and not participating, but to me its a better option than being forced to accept it. I just advocate for people to let their sexuality develop in whatever way is natural to them, for me homosexuality isn't right and I don't want to go into details about it to avoid conflict. I just believe that any exploration should begin positively, and I began just for whatever reason interested in women and it hasn't been a fully positive development for me, and homosexuality to me is this thing that represents failure with women and its really depressing, which is why I avoid it. Other people for whatever reason have developed an interest in homosexuality. That's fine, as long as they don't try to pull me in as a result of my shortcomings with women, I'll let them do their own thing and I'll do mine and there can be coexistence in the world between homosexuals and heterosexuals. If I ever become interested in men it will be after success with women, and even then I just kind of feel like I'd just be content with success with women.

    So that's my long answer, hopefully that didn't rain on your gay pride parade, but I have to think about my own self-interest and being true to my identity and not letting politics or other people influence me off my own path to happiness.

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    I feel like doing an explanation.

    To use a "right-ordered" system of order to explain my left-oriented mentality - There is an observed effect in psychology wherein a person is given an analysis that supposedly pertains to someone in particular; that person is more apt to believe the analysis, this despite the reality that the analysis was catered generally, not to anyone in particular. This effect gives a persuasive explanation behind why techniques such as cold-reading work so well. This is known as the Forer effect.

    Is much of the explanatory power of socioncs attributable to a combination of both the Forer effect and confirmation bias? This is an interesting question, though I will say it is irrelevant. Ultimate truth, in the end, is not knowable or verifiable, all knowledge of things entirely dependent on our perceptions, the mechanisms behind which are faulty and limited. So as such, whenever I discuss ultimate truth, I quickly qualify the debate by asking, "To what are you referring -- Ultimate truth, or Conditional truth?"

    We can speak nothing certain of Ultimate, unconditioned reality. The reality of what we perceive, however, we can discuss without much of a problem, as long as we remember that we are not after the ultimate. An elephant is real, in this sense, that it exists phenomenologically. Socionic theories and explanations, likewise, exist. Are they ultimately true? I cannot say anything in this regard. However, putting aside the question if their ultimate essense, we may ask the perhaps better question: "Is soconics/are socionic theories useful? Do they hold water as theories with explanatory power?" I believe so, but this may change.



    The conflict between Ni/Si is interesting. In my own life, and at times, I have perceived this conflict as a struggle between what Ni "believes is right" and Si wanting to feel "good", at expense sometimes of Ni. Both ends are valid, and that is the quintessence of the role/leading conflict. My Si likes dressing to get positive social attention, fitting in, being seen by others as nice. Why? Perhaps because it feels good. This behavior sometimes conflicts with Ni directly, for example, when my Ni knows that the person who is dressed best may not have the best ideas, and a person dressed "shabbily" may be the coolest, most awesome person ever. Therefore you should go out dressed as you are in a t-shirt and sweats, to get others to understand the process. So how to go about resolving the conflict?

    Also Bulletsanddoves, some days I agree with what you said about "We all need to be touched in life.. .etc" Some days I agree, some not. Erich Fromm wrote about this. One of the arguments he makes is that a, if not the, fundamental motivator of what we do as humans, is the desire to "overcome aloneness." He goes on to describe "imperfect" ways of doing this: "orgiastic" states like drugs and sex, others such as conforming, and more. He argues that love, or mature union, is the answer to the question of aloneness. And he also argues that the paradigm of Western culture, that love is a state, a feeling (e.g. falling in love) is false. Mature union isn't falling in love, but rather standing in love. It's a conscious choice, not a feeling. I tend to agree.

    I'm going off in to left-land. Gonna end this with a modicum of coherency.

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    Oh and let me say that Paranoid Se, or Si that is Role, definitely wants to be pursued and opened.

    Maybe this has to do with us getting confirmation for our beliefs through Se.

    Seeing that we're wanted through Se is the simplest, most natural strategy to perceive this confirmation. There are alternate routes available though, but they aren't modeled anywhere. You can come up with them on your own, or if you're very lucky you can model someone else who has an alternate strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franktheplank View Post
    I want to discuss/find solutions to the peculiarities that were brought up in this thread



    To me, from what I see, it seems that finding your dual is a large part of solving these problems. I am more interested in solutions that do not require another person, instead solutions that make you more complete individually, without a dual. What do you think?
    • Paranoid Si sounds disgusting. I don't relate at all.
    • Paranoid Ne sounds sensible. I relate somewhat.
    • Paranoid Ni and paranoid Se sound familiar. I relate to both quite well.

    • That thread is old.
    • Gilly could do an update and tell us if he still agrees with these.
    Last edited by Park; 02-08-2013 at 04:24 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Shang, I agree that the descriptions of erotic attitudes are quite bad (simplistic, freudian). The can be improved, or better than this, completely redefined.

    But taking apart all bullshit, the idea that underlies is not that you have to be 100% like your identicals and like everything they like, in the same form. I think you're being too radical considering its radicalicalism. The idea is simply that everybody has certain weakness (socionics or not) and we are prone to feel attracted to those people who can compensate these weakness... without negating our self-identity. This makes quite biological sense, I think.

    Everybody likes the same? Obviously not. If we promediate what type X tends to like, we would observe certain predisposition, that's all. Inside the group, we will have a lot of diversity. Also inside the same individual. You would or could feel sexual attraction for different kind of people for different reasons. But still for many people there's certain characteristic (or set) that makes them feel comfortable around certain people more easily than around others.

    Statistical trend inside the individual, and inside a group of close individuals. That's all. Case by case is another issue.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    • Paranoid Si sounds disgusting. I don't relate at all.
    • Paranoid Ne sounds sensible. I relate somewhat.
    • Paranoid Ni and paranoid Se sound familiar. I relate to both quite well.

    • That thread is old.
    • Gilly could do an update and tell us if he still agrees with these.
    Quote Originally Posted by franktheplank View Post
    I want to discuss/find solutions to the peculiarities that were brought up in this thread



    To me, from what I see, it seems that finding your dual is a large part of solving these problems. I am more interested in solutions that do not require another person, instead solutions that make you more complete individually, without a dual. What do you think?
    I would say those descriptions are overly simplified.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Just to chime in at the opportune time, I think Gilly's work is fine, its the actual underlying socionics aspect of duality, strength/weakness, and eroticism that I have the beef with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I would say those descriptions are overly simplified.
    No shit. But besides stating the obvious, would you care to tell us if you agree with the concept and if your views have changed over time? De-simplify perhaps? If you want, have time, etc.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    No shit. But besides stating the obvious, would you care to tell us if you agree with the concept and if your views have changed over time? De-simplify perhaps? If you want, have time, etc.
    Argh

    I think they are oversimplified; I don't know how else to put it. It's too oversimplified to have any relation to Socionics.

    Honestly I think the "erotic attitudes" are a bit useless in practical application; people's sexuality and their views on relationships are much more dependent upon other factors in my experience. Generally speaking though, I think Se/Ni types tend to want someone who challenges them, and thereby affirms their self-worth in a way, whereas Si/Ne types are more apt to look for someone who compliments them well and helps make their life easier.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    Just to chime in at the opportune time, I think Gilly's work is fine, its the actual underlying socionics aspect of duality, strength/weakness, and eroticism that I have the beef with.
    Yesssss

    I agree those descriptions are very good depictions of Socionics function theory and how it is applied in Erotic Attitudes theory, but I don't really think it holds as much weight in real-world circumstances, nor manifests as specifically or clearly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang Tsung View Post
    Just to chime in at the opportune time, I think Gilly's work is fine....
    I should say when I criticized how erotic attitudes are conceptualized (freudian, etc) I was specifically talking about Gulenko's work.

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    Generally speaking though, I think Se/Ni types tend to want someone who challenges them, and thereby affirms their self-worth in a way, whereas Si/Ne types are more apt to look for someone who compliments them well and helps make their life easier.
    Merge those two together. I want somebody that gently challenges me in a way that isn't annoying, and I want to do the same thing to them.
    Last edited by bnd; 02-09-2013 at 03:30 PM.

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    Interracial love. A combination of erotic attitudes void of all paranoia.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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