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Thread: Ego Boundaries

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    Default Ego Boundaries

    So I had an interesting conversation in tinychat about ego boundaries which brought me to a few questions.

    When I entered the military I was constantly labelled as having an "Attitude problem."

    To me, I was a happy, content dude, very self confident, etc. To everyone else I was... fucked up or something. A dick.

    After 5 years I had been repeatedly told I was "arrogant," "self entitled," "bad attitude." Teachers have always hated me in high school and I never understood why. Often times, the only person who had a problem with me was authority.

    I had NO IDEA what they were talking about. Its possible they were projecting. I suspect most of the people who accuse me of such things are E3's. But that still doesn't bring about an understanding of what is happening here.

    So I have a strange dilemma in my life. If I'm open to everyone, people attempt to take advantage of me, and I even get bullied until I close back up and say enough is enough.

    When My guard is up, I become very unapproachable, and have to avoid eye contact with people because it shows that I don't view them as a person, and they'll almost always take offense and either react or seek to destroy me either through passive aggression or direct attacks.

    Both options are destructive on my life in their own way. Either I become disadvantaged in the work place, or I become psychologically damaged.

    The E8 personal growth says few will try to take advantage of you when you act with love etc.

    However, this 'unconditional love' (which I've attempted) also brings about a lot of dependant people into my life, who are rather vampiric on my energy, and get angry and vengeful when I cut off the energy supply (because they drain me).

    However there is one thing I've noticed. As many other ESTp's I've spoken to have identified with, When I am "In Love," I often feel "socially indestructible." my confidence skyrockets and I become open and loving with everyone, yet no one can harm me, and these "vampires" seem to flee. But it seems like this isn't a state I can naturally emulate on my own. It comes and goes. I don't think I'm able to make myself feel this way when not in love. So in this sense, love makes me feel secure, confident and safe.

    So my questions are thrice:
    1. Is there a psychological explanation for what I'm experiencing?
    2. Does anyone have any experience or advice for the matter?
    3. Why do people have such a problem when I close off to them? What is going on in their mind?

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    added thought:

    I recently stumbled across the fact that E5's have "permeable ego boundaries." This makes me think several possible theories. I'm an E5... or I was a disintegrated E8. Does anyone have any exerpts or articles on disintegration from 8 to 5? Most of what I find online isn't very helpful or descriptive.

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    Well military personnel (along with corporate management, many teachers, etc) saying you have an "attitude problem" is likely a sign of strong ego boundaries, because their whole goal is to break your ego and replace it with their own system of values.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    However there is one thing I've noticed. As many other ESTp's I've spoken to have identified with, When I am "In Love," I often feel "socially indestructible." my confidence skyrockets and I become open and loving with everyone, yet no one can harm me, and these "vampires" seem to flee. But it seems like this isn't a state I can naturally emulate on my own. It comes and goes. I don't think I'm able to make myself feel this way when not in love. So in this sense, love makes me feel secure, confident and safe.
    I try not to be too mechanistic about complicated human beings, but the connection you speak of between being "in love" and experience a concomitant boost in confidence and security strikes me as possibly attributable to the effects of dopamine.

    As for the people who say you need an "attitude adjustment", sometimes it's a case of personality conflicts. Other times, however, I find this is pretty common among people who thrive on having those around them scrambling for their approval. They need other people to be desperate to stay in their good graces. If you show defiance, or (worse) apathy or indifference, it's a threat to them. It makes sense in the military, a setting that's dependent on pretty one-sided power dynamics and which attracts people who get their kicks from that sort of thing.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Well military personnel (along with corporate management, many teachers, etc) saying you have an "attitude problem" is likely a sign of strong ego boundaries, because their whole goal is to break your ego and replace it with their own system of values.
    woah...

    I have had several bosses say, "I can't break [DJArendee]" as if they're perfectly aware of what they're trying to do.

    So this is a form of control? People who do this are TRYING TO CONTROL me?

    Do they not see something fucking wrong with that?

    So essentially there's nothing wrong with telling employers "I cannot be controlled?" I'm under the impression that's a huge turnoff to a lot of employers because I've been conditioned to think I need to learn how to "bend over" and be submissive when this is something that is physiologically impossible for me to do unless I feel like dealing with neuroses and gerd. Its the reason I feel as if I've been FORCED into the entrepreneurial world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I try not to be too mechanistic about complicated human beings, but the connection you speak of between being "in love" and experience a concomitant boost in confidence and security strikes me as possibly attributable to the effects of dopamine.

    As for the people who say you need an "attitude adjustment", sometimes it's a case of personality conflicts. Other times, however, I find this is pretty common among people who thrive on having those around them scrambling for their approval. They need other people to be desperate to stay in their good graces. If you show defiance, or (worse) apathy or indifference, it's a threat to them. It makes sense in the military, a setting that's dependent on pretty one-sided power dynamics and which attracts people who get their kicks from that sort of thing.
    Hmmm, dopamine! That makes sense, those times do feel rather 'chemical' in nature.

    And yes, it feels good to hear that this is simply a "personality conflict." The unfortunate side of this is that most people seem to think I'm making excuses when I say it was a "personality conflict." Gonna have to learn to ignore those people I guess.

    Awesome responses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    ITT: civilians parrot popular misconceptions about military culture.
    Try "civilians with multiple friends who have been in the military." It's actually correct that way.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    ITT: civilians parrot popular misconceptions about military culture.
    Care to make some corrections then? Gilly and Animal's statements seem to be in line with my observations.

    Why don't you provide some proper military perspective since you think I'm unfit to provide such a thing. Unless this whole time you've been taking my negative sentiments personally, in which cases it wasn't my intent to offend.

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    They're not trying to control you, they don't really give a flying toss what you're doing after your working hours, only thing they care about it you doing your job effectively so some form of organisation is required to make the job you do easier for you, so you can make most out of the time you have to do certain job(s). It pays off on both ends and works perfectly in most cases.

    Military is completely different, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    woah...

    I have had several bosses say, "I can't break [DJArendee]" as if they're perfectly aware of what they're trying to do.
    Get over yourself.

    So this is a form of control? People who do this are TRYING TO CONTROL me?

    Do they not see something fucking wrong with that?
    No, they don't think about it. It's mostly instinctual because they are in a superior position and therefore implicitly expect a servile attitude.

    By the way this bemusement definitely rules out E8 as your enneagram type. Like beyond any shadow of a doubt. Seriously. Look at E3 or E6 pleeeaaaase.

    So essentially there's nothing wrong with telling employers "I cannot be controlled?" I'm under the impression that's a huge turnoff to a lot of employers because I've been conditioned to think I need to learn how to "bend over" and be submissive when this is something that is physiologically impossible for me to do unless I feel like dealing with neuroses and gerd. Its the reason I feel as if I've been FORCED into the entrepreneurial world.
    No you definitely don't want to say that to employers. What you should do is just maintain your own boundaries while proving that you can do the work better than others without being a robot. Also maybe read Ayn Rand for consolation
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    In that case help yourself to the facts from knowledgeable sources instead of spouting falsehoods.
    Actually what I have already said is entirely based on the experiences that have been related to me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Get over yourself.
    I'm not making this up. What was said was said, I'm just being straight forward here.

    No, they don't think about it. It's mostly instinctual because they are in a superior position and therefore implicitly expect a servile attitude.
    makes sense.

    By the way this bemusement definitely rules out E8 as your enneagram type. Like beyond any shadow of a doubt. Seriously. Look at E3 or E6 pleeeaaaase.
    In the interest of appearing humble, I have. millions of times. not me. I legitimately have thought about it. I've even considered E3 and E9 because of this "hollow" feeling I sometimes experience within my protective walls.

    In the end, I cannot escape this line from enneagraminstitute.

    Basic Fear: Of being harmed or controlled by others
    No you definitely don't want to say that to employers. What you should do is just maintain your own boundaries while proving that you can do the work better than others without being a robot. Also maybe read Ayn Rand for consolation
    Well that's the problem. When I maintain my boundaries, the boss starts getting on my case for having an "attitude problem" until problems seem to snowball and I either get fired or they micromanage me until I get frustrated and quit. I'm a gymnastics instructor right now and I love my job but I haven't ruled out the possibility that this may become a problem in the future.

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    Paranoics will be paranoics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    They're not trying to control you, they don't really give a flying toss what you're doing after your working hours, only thing they care about it you doing your job effectively so some form of organisation is required to make the job you do easier for you, so you can make most out of the time you have to do certain job(s). It pays off on both ends and works perfectly in most cases.
    Right. I'm assuming DJArendee isn't just showing up at these places and being a completely unreasonable jerk. Obviously, if you're not taking your work seriously, not meeting the quality they're asking of you, or just not cooperating with the people who are in charge of the project, something needs to change. I wouldn't want to work with someone who just doesn't give a fuck.

    As for my comments about the military, obviously I don't have firsthand experience. It's simply the impression I get from guys who I talk to in the physical rehabilitation clinic and friends who have gone into the military. Also, a bad experience with a megalomaniac ex-marine supervisor (in the business-sense, not Socionics).
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    were you spoiled as a child?

    that's the impression i always get when i meet people similar to you who have issues similar to what you're describing.
    but maybe it IS just a "personality conflict." dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    were you spoiled as a child?

    that's the impression i always get when i meet people similar to you who have issues similar to what you're describing.
    but maybe it IS just a "personality conflict." dunno.
    hmm, well, I was smothered. I don't know if the line between the two sayings is thick enough for it to make a difference though. My grandfather was a 4 star admiral, so gaining admission into the naval academy was a cake walk. That caused some resentment in others. I never felt like I had a sense of entitlement, although I expect a lot of things to happen. When I get accepted into a prestigious institution, I expect a lot from it. But I suspect my "sense of entitlement" was the upperclass way of telling me to drop my expectations. Its possible they were trying to help me even if they had some spite in their tone.

    @Animal...

    I think part of my attitude problem... was the fact that I was bored in the military. Doing nothing in the office for 8 hours a day makes me crazy bored, like painfully bored. Having no responsibility on a ship makes me crazy bored and lethargic and this rubs off onto others.

    But other times accusations on my attitude problem are very sporadic and upredictable, oftentimes when I'm in my best possible moods.

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    that doesn't mean anything to me

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    ya'll need to stop talking at me like I'm full of myself. I'm being straight forward here with a legitimate issue that's very abstract and difficult for me to understand.

    I've heard it said to me by a prior enlisted, "the problem with this school was that they break you down, but make no effort to build you back up."

    I've never understood what it means to "break" someone down. I like the idea that i was broken, and have been rebuilding myself ever since. This whole concept is so abstract I'm having difficulty believing its the actual issue at stake though.

    @k0rpsy...

    What do you think about this based on your bootcamp experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    hmm, well, I was smothered. I don't know if the line between the two sayings is thick enough for it to make a difference though. My grandfather was a 4 star admiral, so gaining admission into the naval academy was a cake walk. That caused some resentment in others. I never felt like I had a sense of entitlement, although I expect a lot of things to happen. When I get accepted into a prestigious institution, I expect a lot from it. But I suspect my "sense of entitlement" was the upperclass way of telling me to drop my expectations. Its possible they were trying to help me even if they had some spite in their tone.

    @Animal...

    I think part of my attitude problem... was the fact that I was bored in the military. Doing nothing in the office for 8 hours a day makes me crazy bored, like painfully bored. Having no responsibility on a ship makes me crazy bored and lethargic and this rubs off onto others.

    But other times accusations on my attitude problem are very sporadic and upredictable, oftentimes when I'm in my best possible moods.
    It sounds like this goes beyond just boredom, though. It's one thing to be bored. It's another to allow the people around you to pick up on that boredom. Most jobs are boring. But we put up with the boring parts so we don't end up on the streets. It sounds like you are indifferent to a job as your primary income stream. There's nothing inherently wrong with that so long as you aren't being foolish. If you have enough in the bank to keep you afloat, aren't facing daily hunger or imminent homelessness and your current income allows you to sustain the lifestyle that you want, it's perfectly understandable to be indifferent to working. If that's not the case, you may want to let the threat of losing the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed sink in a little.

    In 19th century Europe, there was a class of men who basically lived off their family's wealth, ate big meals, smoked opium, hired courtesans, and generally lived it up until they'd squandered all the money, and had to become a fat barrister or civil servant of some kind, which office they attained usually through nepotism. Most people today are not those guys, however. Fear of sinking into poverty makes them grateful for what work they can get. Even if they're not particularly happy, they put on a cooperative front to save their hide from being sacked. Perhaps some of the people who have said you need an "attitude adjustment" are just people who are generally grateful for the work they've arrived at. Either through necessity or genuine interest in the field they're working in, they are willing to put up with whatever coincidental boredom or discomfort the work entails. And, especially from the perspective of necessity, your apparent indifference can be construed as... insulting. The only way to avoid this is to at least pretend to enjoy the work that you do, or drop out of the game altogether (which sounds like the path you've chosen anyway).
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    By the way this bemusement definitely rules out E8 as your enneagram type. Like beyond any shadow of a doubt. Seriously. Look at E3 or E6 pleeeaaaase.
    And ESE 5w4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Right. I'm assuming DJArendee isn't just showing up at these places and being a completely unreasonable jerk. Obviously, if you're not taking your work seriously, not meeting the quality they're asking of you, or just not cooperating with the people who are in charge of the project, something needs to change. I wouldn't want to work with someone who just doesn't give a fuck.
    I worked with someone like that. He would get drunk at workplace and go "what the hell just happened?" when one of the machines started its cycle, not to mention getting pissed at crows, trying to climb the tree, failing, and throwing rocks at them when they shat on him even though had been warned to not sit under the tree on a bench.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    were you spoiled as a child?

    that's the impression i always get when i meet people similar to you who have issues similar to what you're describing.
    but maybe it IS just a "personality conflict." dunno.
    Haha, been waiting on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It sounds like this goes beyond just boredom, though. It's one thing to be bored. It's another to allow the people around you to pick up on that boredom. Most jobs are boring. It sounds like you are indifferent to a job as your primary income stream. There's nothing inherently wrong with that so long as you aren't being foolish. If you have enough in the bank to keep you afloat, aren't facing daily hunger or imminent homelessness and your current income allows you to sustain the lifestyle that you want, it's perfectly understandable to be indifferent to working. If that's not the case, you may want to let the threat of losing the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed sink in a little.

    In 19th century Europe, there was a class of men who basically lived off their family's wealth, ate big meals, smoked opium, hired courtesans, and generally lived it up until they'd squandered all the money, and had to become a fat barrister or civil servant of some kind, which office they attained usually through nepotism. Most people today are not those guys, however. Fear of sinking into poverty makes them grateful for what work they can get. Even if they're not particularly happy, they put on a cooperative front to save their hide from being sacked. Perhaps some of the people who have said you need an "attitude adjustment" are just people who are generally grateful for the work they've arrived at. Either through necessity or genuine interest in the field they're working in, they are willing to put up with whatever coincidental boredom or discomfort the work entails. And, especially from the perspective of necessity, your apparent indifference can be construed as... insulting. The only way to avoid this is to at least pretend to enjoy the work that you do, or drop out of the game altogether (which sounds like the path you've chosen anyway).
    Yeah that seems to be it. I can't pretend I enjoy anything, this is what is physically impossible for me. If I hate what I do, it shows. Kinda sucks, I wish I could become more invisible but I suspect that's one of those things that cannot be changed. I've had other gymnastics instructors come in and talk about how much the job sucks and I've gotten a little frustrated at them before. I guess its just hard to understand because most of the people i spoke to in the military were cynnical, bitter, and generally miserable looking all the time so I feel like its acceptable behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Yeah that seems to be it. I can't pretend I enjoy anything, this is what is physically impossible for me. If I hate what I do, it shows. Kinda sucks, I wish I could become more invisible but I suspect that's one of those things that cannot be changed. I've had other gymnastics instructors come in and talk about how much the job sucks and I've gotten a little frustrated at them before. I guess its just hard to understand because most of the people i spoke to in the military were cynnical, bitter, and generally miserable looking all the time so I feel like its acceptable behavior.
    Yeah. Ideally, you wouldn't have to pretend, at least not for extended periods of time. You generally want to enjoy what you do. Ignoring your inner inclinations long-term is a set-up for misery and perhaps psychological issues later down the line. Most of us have professions that we cordon off as things we'd probably never entertain as career choices. For me, that would be sales. I am terrible at making people buy things they don't need, and I can't imagine what sorts of things a manager would spout at me at a team meeting if I didn't make quota, lol. Probably worse than needing an attitude adjustment. It seems like the military was just the wrong place for you. So long as this isn't happening with every employer, in every work setting, and so long as you HAVE found something you enjoy doing for a living and can put up with, I don't think it's necessarily deeper than... those were the wrong jobs for you. Sometimes people end up with a string of bad fits in a row.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I'm not making this up. What was said was said, I'm just being straight forward here.
    It's just...the context makes it seem like an ego-driven statement. Maybe it's not. But it seems like it.



    In the interest of appearing humble, I have. millions of times.


    not me. I legitimately have thought about it. I've even considered E3 and E9 because of this "hollow" feeling I sometimes experience within my protective walls.
    I don't think that's exclusive to any type, really.

    In the end, I cannot escape this line from enneagraminstitute.
    *shrug* I was convinced I was 7w8 or 8w7 beyond all shred of a doubt, and had read E3 descriptions, and thought they were pretty much the opposite of me. Then one day, I dunno, it just clicked, and felt undeniable from that point on. If you haven't isolated that part of yourself yet, it's expected you wouldn't identify. But then again, you're not me, so *shrug* I just don't think you are E8.


    Well that's the problem. When I maintain my boundaries, the boss starts getting on my case for having an "attitude problem" until problems seem to snowball and I either get fired or they micromanage me until I get frustrated and quit. I'm a gymnastics instructor right now and I love my job but I haven't ruled out the possibility that this may become a problem in the future.
    Just make sure you do everything they tell you, and do it well, and don't break any rules. As a person who has always had this same problem, I can tell you it's what's worked best for me, because you can't change who you are, and if you do you are a coward, so the only thing to do is make yourself worth more than your "attitude problem" is "costing" them.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    So I had an interesting conversation in tinychat about ego boundaries which brought me to a few questions.

    When I entered the military I was constantly labelled as having an "Attitude problem."

    To me, I was a happy, content dude, very self confident, etc. To everyone else I was... fucked up or something. A dick.

    After 5 years I had been repeatedly told I was "arrogant," "self entitled," "bad attitude." Teachers have always hated me in high school and I never understood why. Often times, the only person who had a problem with me was authority.

    I had NO IDEA what they were talking about. Its possible they were projecting. I suspect most of the people who accuse me of such things are E3's. But that still doesn't bring about an understanding of what is happening here.

    So I have a strange dilemma in my life. If I'm open to everyone, people attempt to take advantage of me, and I even get bullied until I close back up and say enough is enough.

    When My guard is up, I become very unapproachable, and have to avoid eye contact with people because it shows that I don't view them as a person, and they'll almost always take offense and either react or seek to destroy me either through passive aggression or direct attacks.

    Both options are destructive on my life in their own way. Either I become disadvantaged in the work place, or I become psychologically damaged.

    The E8 personal growth says few will try to take advantage of you when you act with love etc.

    However, this 'unconditional love' (which I've attempted) also brings about a lot of dependant people into my life, who are rather vampiric on my energy, and get angry and vengeful when I cut off the energy supply (because they drain me).

    However there is one thing I've noticed. As many other ESTp's I've spoken to have identified with, When I am "In Love," I often feel "socially indestructible." my confidence skyrockets and I become open and loving with everyone, yet no one can harm me, and these "vampires" seem to flee. But it seems like this isn't a state I can naturally emulate on my own. It comes and goes. I don't think I'm able to make myself feel this way when not in love. So in this sense, love makes me feel secure, confident and safe.

    So my questions are thrice:
    1. Is there a psychological explanation for what I'm experiencing?
    2. Does anyone have any experience or advice for the matter?
    3. Why do people have such a problem when I close off to them? What is going on in their mind?
    1: If you have a tendency toward psychological dependency, being in love relieves you from seeking dependency in other everyday relationships. When the psychological dependency seeking is active, the relationships formed have an overly dependent, vampiric quality.
    2: I think alot of people experience this... The more independent / self sufficient you are, the more it resolves. Sever ties of any dependent relationships you have, and then focus on developing yourself in the weak areas. If it's mainly an emotional dependency problem, I don't know. I don't really understand emotional dependency. If I saw your astrology chart I could tell you how to resolve this problem.
    3: If you're drawn to psychologically dependent people, backing off will seem like an offense to them... And the all or nothing attitude is flawed. The balance is in between, where you are dependent if it's justified and then cold when it's justified.

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    Your attitude problem in the military may be because you weren't "predictable"? I mean, isnít the military a bit like chess? All the pieces have a specific square, function, rank? The basic principle is that the player is able to control and move the pieces they want whenever they need to. The player needs you to be there when they need you. This is why you canít use a hamster as a chess piece because it would probably not stand in the same place even if itís a very smart hamster. Same principle in companies. Thatís why pepole who donít perform the way the boss want them to gets fired.

    Itís no suprise if being in the military messed you up, assuming you where the hamster.


    Could you clarify how you attempted Ēunconditional loveĒ? Because to me it sounds like a strange thing to attempt. To me, the only unconditional love I feel is towards my siblings and possible future children. Itís something that canít be switched on/off. Unconditional love is not to be confused with loyalty.


    Ēthe only person who had problem with me was authorityĒ Ė they had a problem with you because they could not predict and control you → which in their head means that they canít rely on you you to follow orders when they need you


    Your problem with E3 might be because they are performers, they will preform when they are given orders, whether they like it or not. And they donít understand why you wonít.


    So maybe in your head Ė I donít like this so I wonít do it
    In E3's head Ė I may not like this but Iím going to do it anyway and anyone who thinks differently are arrogant

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I've heard it said to me by a prior enlisted, "the problem with this school was that they break you down, but make no effort to build you back up."

    I've never understood what it means to "break" someone down. I like the idea that i was broken, and have been rebuilding myself ever since. This whole concept is so abstract I'm having difficulty believing its the actual issue at stake though.
    I believe that breaking someone down could refer to applying pressure (eg. physical, psychological) to force change someone's value or worldview. For example, do A and I'll give you a cookie/praise, do B and I'll punish/tell the crowd to boo you.

    It could also refer to the unfreezing stage of the Lewin's Change Management Model if applied in a group setting.
    Last edited by Ozz; 02-02-2013 at 12:33 AM.

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    Clunky and disorganized "corrections" of a largely yes-but manner:

    The military is an absurd pain in the ass on good days and an anti-human meatgrinder on bad ones. Some combination of toughness, gallows humor, the ability to endure complete boredom, and even masochism are necessary to get by.

    Bootcamp doesn't serve to destroy one's identity and replace it with another. It requires far more than three months of marching drills and plinking on the range to achieve that kind of brainwashing. Bootcamp serves to reject the defective and the weak so that the government doesn't waste time and money training useless motherfuckers who will only jeopardize their units and their missions later. And the culture of martial discipline exists so that when the shit goes down — which it will because the military is in the business of killing people and destroying infrastructure — that shit goes down when and where it's supposed to so that mission objectives are met without stupid quibbling and fucking around.

    Although the military's chain of command does exert its authority downward from the top, every person in a position of power along the way is still someone else's subordinate, and even the power of the president is kept in check by the legislature and the court. It's entirely possible for the lowliest recruit to refuse unlawful orders, to give feedback to higher-ups, and to air grievances with one's supervisors.

    The majority of people join the military because their hometowns are boring to them, their friends are all moving away, and they're interested in education benefits. The steady paycheck and travel aren't too bad either, plus whatever training one receives in the course of being prepared for service in the field.

    Although there are power-hungry assholes in every command who treat their subordinates like slaves, those individuals are generally disrespected, disliked, and shunned. For instance, the chief I worked for near the tail end of my six year enlistment was one of these ridiculous douchebags and he took his meals alone in the corner of the chief's mess because all the other khaki NCOs detested his ass. His cack-handedly demeaning and draconian mismanagement reached such a point that one of the silly bitches in our division actually tried to stab the guy in the throat with with a pair of scissors, and another one tried to off himself with a fistful of sleeping pills.

    When my unit had a commanding officer who respected the personnel and treated them like human adults, that attitude trickled down among the other officers, and then we'd have productive and upbeat individuals who took pride in their work, especially because they were being recognized for their efforts and dedication to excellence. However, when a new CO was one who held his subordinates in disdain or saw them as something other than human, this also was transferred to his immediate underlings and down to the lowest ranks, resulting in pissed off and overworked individuals who spent all their time awake pissing and moaning.

    What you (Gilly) have related all sounds accurate, but it's also made of the same complaints that are issued every day in the military by those who feel overworked and underappreciated, and who are probably better off in another career that doesn't require blindness, stupidity, and perhaps masochism to endure with a smile. Do the problems carped about actually exist? Yes, but the clusterfuckery borne of ignorant bureaucrats (i.e. officers) tampering with the works of a giant machine is the primary issue inside the military, not so much sociopaths and megalomaniacs drawn to subjugate and afflict others.


    DJA can barely claim to have been in the military because he flunked out of the dress-up of training without even beginning his active duty commitment. This occurred because he is a wounded simp whose brain is boobytrapped with multiple cognitive distortions, leaving him paranoiacally vigilant against anyone he even suspects might do him harm, a condition that existed prior to anything he claims "the military" did to him. DJA is daddy's homemade little enneagram six. Start with the roots of that complex and the remainder will become clear. There's your psychological answer.

  30. #30
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Off topic:

    K0rpsy, you really seem like a good guy to know.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    Off topic:

    K0rpsy, you really seem like a good guy to know.
    Every so often this is actually true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The fact that you've such a conscious preoccupation with the idea of others trying to control you, should be a dead giveaway that you're not E8. Along with your self-professed ego permeability.
    I don't have a conscious preoccupation with people trying to control me unless there is someone there that I've actually met in person sending me a big red flag. I do, however, have an interest in learning typology the same reason someone learns self defense.

    8's are not 100% impermeable ego. That's crap. It may look that way in the eyes of non 8's though.

    guys, my enneagram isn't changing until I see another type makes more sense. For some reason you guys think I'm here to profess myself as an E8 and be recognized to countless internet strangers so I can feel good about myself. This isn't true. I'm here to learn typology and to actually learn and find the solution to the problem in the OP.

    So drop the nonconstructive accusations and help or shut your mouthes and stop trolling.
    Last edited by Azure Flame; 02-02-2013 at 02:25 AM.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You have some ulterior fixation to conceive yourself as a heroic figure, hence your posturing as "E8".
    If I view myself as a superhero, Is that actually a disqualifier? I like to have fun. HYAH! *slaps horse*

    Info you don't want to hear which contradicts your errant self-concept ≠ trolling.

    If you're not okay with contradictions to what you want to believe, then cease posting these threads and never ask for advice again.
    contradictory info is fine. the fact that you don't listen to my rebuttals, is not. It makes you look like you're more interested in imposing your opinion than finding the actual truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    contradictory info is fine. the fact that you don't listen to my rebuttals, is not.
    Which function when ignored, do you think is most likely to do that?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Which function when ignored, do you think is most likely to do that?
    That would be Ti... hmm..

    So what your'e saying is... he's not trolling, he's just a dumbass?

    everybody wins!

    no wonder his ego boundaries are impennetrable to others' logic! The only ignoring function I have is Si... and I don't really know wtf that means. maybe I'm oblivious to when a room smells like ass.

    hmm, actually this explains why LXE's think I'm making excuses all the time when I'm trying to defend myself against their accusations... fascinating!
    Last edited by Azure Flame; 02-02-2013 at 03:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    That would be Ti... hmm..

    So what your'e saying is... he's not trolling, he's just a dumbass?

    everybody wins!

    no wonder his ego boundaries are impennetrable to others' logic!

    hmm, actually this explains why LXE's think I'm making excuses all the time when I'm trying to defend myself against their accusations... fascinating!
    I'm sending you a pm

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    maritsa, you get a gold star for today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    It suggests you're compensating for a lack of self-assurance.
    Correlation =/= causation. Perhaps that would be true if my brain worked the same as yours. I have a colorful self perception that I enjoy and I find stimulating to think about. Since we have an inexplicable discord for cartoons or anything colorful or fun, I would look into yourself for the answer to our differences instead of pointing the finger without even considering yourself a part of the equation.

    Just because you hate cartoons and superheroes and I love them, doesn't mean I'm insecure.
    Last edited by Azure Flame; 02-02-2013 at 04:46 AM.

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    @Ashton

    PS: why do you hate cartoons? Just curious. Is there something particular about cartoons that you find rather unstimulating? Is there a part of you that's uncomfortable and awkward when situated around them?

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    1. Is there a psychological explanation for what I'm experiencing? you are special, jk

    2. Does anyone have any experience or advice for the matter? yes, see next question

    3. Why do people have such a problem when I close off to them? What is going on in their mind?

    you're being unsociable, is there any reason for anyone to behave otherwise when you are in such a state?

    especially if you are always like that, with everyone, which I assume you aren't

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