thank you, bnd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
talk talk talk talk talk
GASLIGHTING
thank you, bnd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
talk talk talk talk talk
sounds like what they did in this project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra
Yeah, gaslighting works really well for manipulation. Things I have had to learn (still working on):
* When someone is denying or managing my basic perceptions of my own reality (for example, my likes and dislikes, which are strictly personal, or whether something that actually happened, happened), there is a problem.
* If the message I'm receiving is primarily meta- (i.e., it is mostly communicating something about how great or correct the sender is and not anything of substance), there is a problem.
I could give more specific examples of how this has worked in my experience, but keeping it general I'd say people who are good at gaslighting will start slowly and work on you over time. It can be hard to notice.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
UNABOMBER Ted Kaczynski was subjected to something like this early in life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_KaczynskiHe also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.[12] Students in Murray's study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.[13] Instead they were subjected to a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment"[13] stress test, which was an extremely stressful, personal, and prolonged psychological attack. During the test, students were taken into a room and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror. Each student had previously written an essay detailing their personal beliefs and aspirations: the essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney, who would enter the room and individually belittle each student based in part on the disclosures they had made. This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to author Alston Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study.[13][14] Indeed, some have suggested that this experience may have been instrumental in Kaczynski's future actions.[15]
Mm, also, the linked article mentioned "introjects." This is like putting a piece of malware into some else. One type of therapy I'm familiar with deals with introjects originating with caregivers/parents:
(from here)A maladaptive introject is a part of self that forms when mirror neurons fire in the presence of a significant role model who is physically or emotionally wounding (such as an abusive or rejecting parent.) In the DNMS model a maladaptive introject is conceptualized as a part of self with an intrinsically good true nature that is unwillingly wearing a mask or costume that conveys the role model’s wounding messages. The mask is the mirror neuron’s ingrained recording of a past wounding experience.
When the mask is activated (or when the recording plays) the wounding message is directed to reactive parts who perceive the wounding experience from the past is still happening in the present. (The relationship between maladaptive introjects and reactive parts in the DNMS model is similar to the relationship between top dog and underdog parts in the Gestalt model.)[10]
I think this ties into how manipulators succeed at what they do. They can get you to do most of their dirty work for them, since people have native physiological mechanisms, sociological strategies, etc., that manipulators work on.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
When you find yourself thinking that you need a tape recorder or video camera to back up your memory of events when around someone, and are continually told by them that your incredibly reliable memory is suddenly faulty, they are probably attempting this.
If it doesn't work - they'll try something else. So, your best option is to get the hell away from anyone who attempts this - very far away, and don't look back.
if all of somebody's exes have been "crazy bitches," there's an extremely good chance that you will be a "crazy bitch" too.
You don't really want to talk about it. Worked yet?
Wow, very interesting thread lungs.
I thought the link (within the link) to sociopathy and abusive relationships was spot on, I would ascribe it to psychopathy for these purposes also. It's not far off brainwashing on the whole.
Hmmm, and even there is a similarity between the confidence of a lie/trickster when told in such a way that may cause doubt too, esp if repetitive....therefore at times it is possible to not even confront or deny to the victim but purely by way of placing the self in a position of such exuberant purity/innocence can cause the victim to question themself.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
I'm iffy about giving people supernatural abilities.
It isn't in my nature to be worry of people. But I did realize at some point how valuable it is to mentally keep track of my interactions with some poeple and be a little attentive. It's easy to notice such nature in people anyway, especially if they are family/friends who have been around you a lot.
Ha. fatal mistake. Everyone overestimates themselves when dealing with very crafty manipulators. They think their keen observational skills, their intelligence, their emotional awareness, or whatever other skills they think they have above the average joe will protect them. And, they're always wrong.Originally Posted by Ryan
Every skill or quality you take pride in can easily become a liability. You can learn to recognize things of course, but don't get too cocky about how good you are at it.
Protect me from what?
From being manipulated, dipshit.
I have the skill of staying away from people. Serves me everytime.
That's one that generally does work lol.
You make it sound like it's a game. I said it's easy because I don't believe there is a skill involved. Labeling people as "crafty manipulators" is nonsense.
Gaslighting is more common than people think.
The video that I jokingly linked in Anything Goes about the Jewish woman describing her family depicts one of many, many ways she was gaslit. In other words, gaslighting can be very, very simple, yet effective.
Gaslighting is cummulative and can be related to other concepts in action of abuse. I'd suggest anyone read about it (in action, not the theory, specifically) to just know how to spot it, not make a big deal out of it (okay, I see it. Thats nice. Moving on...).
The main goal of gaslighting is for one to have either have direct control over one's perception, decisions, or sometimes its just because the other person is ill and had no rhyme or reason why theyre doing it.
The main pattern, however, is essntially convincing the receiver that their own mind cannot be trusted.
Trust y0 self.
Last edited by pikachu; 01-10-2013 at 07:15 PM. Reason: I cant type.
Its a heavy cost tho.
I take it you don't live in the real world?
yep, too heavy for me. I'd rather just stay away from specific people once they've been identified. I no longer assume I'll outsmart them - I've maybe learned something from my mistakes.
Not the world of conspiracy nuts and such, no. No offense.
You need abused, lol.
You will be one of us soon enough. Muahaha.
Reason is a whore.
And by being afraid of them WE'VE WON! Wait...
If we don't have the ability to defend ourselves from being gaslit ("we" the general populace) then how does another part of the general populace have control over us? Because every time someone tries to manipulate you it obviously always works.
I don't believe there is any right to be paranoid. Because you have failed does not mean we will all fail. Being aware, yes, this is reasonable, but assuming every suggestion is evil is just ludicrous.
Read what I wrote. I swear -- Im just going to go around slapping people that cant read when they know how to type.
If you even did not read what I wrote, you would still know the concept is individual to individual, or within a small group. Its not something lile, "My fellow Americanz, I just gaslit you, lolz. Love, Bushypoo" Thats other concepts.
And you do realize that even as an individual you are included in the general populace and when you talk about a general populace in order to include every individual you don't mean one individual affecting the populace, but each person in the populace effects every other person in the populace.
PS my response wasn't directed towards you.
No shit?
It was directed towards me, but you didn't grasp what I was saying either. Basically - don't get so cocky, because it's your own cockiness in dealing with some people that leaves you vulnerable.
I don't think anybody was saying that every attempt at manipulation works. that's not the point. I think when you are being successfully manipulated, you'll have some inner conflict and you should listen to what your gut is telling you even if it might be a little paranoid.
Obviously you didn't understand my post if you had assumed I was thinking what you had typed in the last paragraph. I was talking about individual basis' as well.
If most of us are average then either those who are gas-lighting are, for assumption of paranoia, above average intelligence, or reality, just as average, then the techniques they'll be using are foreseeable since the degree of ability they have will be similar to our ability to comprehend their actions. Their average ability will lack the nuance, and intelligence does imply nuance. Also, my cynicism doesn't reach so far as to think that anyone correcting me on what I thought was correct is a chance to maliciously prove me wrong in order to control me. My cynicism does run far enough for me to actually prove them right, or wrong, but manipulation by everyone is just misanthropy. I believe that this is as far as cynicism should be allowed to go.
Again, no shit, lol. Ive already considered this.
Gaslighting, which is one word for the concept, isnt about intelligence. If you want to go that route, thats fine, but dont drag people down into a world where the damn concept isnt about.
this takes for granted different types of intelligence as well as the dynamic of the relationship and emotions involved and how that affects how well people are able to use their intelligence. its a lot more complicated than the formula you've reduced it to. and nobody is saying that every interaction is manipulation, you're building straw men (ftr i think it could be argued that it is, but thats mostly semantics and misses the point of whats being talked about here)
I understood that. And I agree, but I do not see how telling someone to be afraid will help them either. Your original post lacks so much confidence how can being gaslit not work on you.
It is a hyperbole, yes. I was exaggerating because I believe @squark 's opinion that anyone who believes they can win against these crafty manipulators will be wrong. I agree it isn't a raw intelligence, the intelligence in the ability to interpret whether you are being manipulated is what is tested. I don't think listening to your gut is being paranoid either, I believe always assuming you will fail is a defeatist approach.
It isn't about the intelligence that most people are assuming, no. But being able to realize when you are being manipulated and not is a kind of intelligence. That is the intelligence I was speaking on.
All good points guys.
I think there are three types of Gaslighting.
Moralistic Media Gaslighting/Jew Gaslighting
This is a form of gaslighting where somebody creates a form of entertainment that is a reflection of a reality you know but with exaggerated truths and ideals to keep you interested. After all if you watched a show that was a complete replica of real life, you'd probably die. Thus, it often leaves many open-ended possibilities where the protagonists can be corrupted by evil and the antagonists can be redeemed to good, which makes things interesting and makes you want to tune in to see who will hurt your feelings next or who you will feel truly supported by. This Gaslighting is acceptable by society because as Jadae once said, deep down we all want to be deceived in a way - and since it's not 'real' it's only a form of influence to make you think about things and get further lost in a world, we accept it.
Physical sociopathic abuse/traditional gaslighting.
This type of gaslighting is just like the traditional gaslighting it says in the wikipedia article. It's when somebody changes an external circumstance themselves and makes you believe that you are going crazy. Like moving your keys themselves and then when you go look and look for them and ask 'where are my keys' the gaslighter will go "You are forever misplacing things you silly head.' When in reality, they were the ones that moved them in the first place but aren't telling you. Of course that can be interpreted as just benign 'fucking with somebody' as a sensitive person some people can't help but bite into but of course there are more extreme examples and intentions that cause serious harm. Either way it's assholeic and about control.
Psychological gaslighting in real life social skills that aren't based on anything physical/objective.
This type of gaslighting is often used by female gaslighters as it does not do any direct physical damage , but it does tremendous emotional damage. A female gaslighter will often said that they didn't say something that they actually did say, like narcissistic mommies who go "I didn't say that, June is so sensitive sometimes aren't you sweetie. We're still working on that in therapy, right?" Notice how in all these examples the offender takes no responsibility and it's always your fault. They might go "I know I can be a bitch sometimes but we all can be right?" and look around the room as if they were as beautiful as Audrey Hepburn. They are unable to take any specific damage if they hurt anybody's feelings because they just don't care. With people with normal empathy and aren't abusers, we feel natural guilt if we hurt somebody's emotions and we naturally want to 'make up.' This person is just about control and manipulation and looking like the 'strong popular person' in society's eyes. The female gaslighter here has a narcissistic sense of selfconfidence who is all dependant on June's (total random name i made up) negative downfall.
As a society we accept the gaslighting in the first example, the Media Gaslighting Done In Books/Written Word only because it is the healthiest. I suppose there's a part in all of us that gaslights, even if we are doing it subconsciously. The actress who plays the evil cunt in the stories really does work in the soup kitchen and everybody finds that entertaining and 'laughs about it' it's really harmless to us. Jews understand this well that's why you can't be too mad at them for controlling the world.
OR CAN YOU???
(okay sorry im just tired of typing so much. but yeah to me those are the 3 forms of gaslighting.)
I had a boss that attempted this whenever I caught him out giving a poorly thought out instruction. Never worked.
lol. All I have to say is - dumbass. Being told that my memory and perceptions were wrong didn't work on me, but as I pointed out, for those who are skilled manipulators, and yes, it is a skill, they will find other angles and methods. The person I was dealing with was if you believe in IQ as meaning anything was highly intelligent, and although by that measure, I may have been higher (and I don't think IQ score means much btw) and generally "smarter" - I most certainly was over my head in dealing with him. For the following reasons:
- he had no conscience. you can't depend on a person acting within general ethical measures if they don't recognize the existence of those measures
- he was very skilled, with a lot of practice, and was frankly pretty damn impressive if you were aware of what he was doing. And if you weren't aware, then tough shit for you.
- he was constantly looking for means of manipulation and was incredibly persistent in applying what gave him any advantage.
- I was overconfident in myself, didn't pay enough attention to what he was doing, and had both my weaknesses and my vanity used against me.
There's no way most people would believe most of the things he did, because to reasonable people, they make no sense. And they were hidden and denied as well, so pointing out the things that he actually did made people look at ME suspiciously, as though I was crazy, because "who would do that?" I still don't talk about most of it, because frankly, people don't believe it when I do. I look paranoid. I look crazy. And that's the whole point. The whole point behind gaslighting and it's related manipulation is to make the victim appear to themselves or other people as being unbalanced, untrustworthy, or crazy, while working the situation to your advantage.
I'm no idiot. And I certainly don't lack confidence in myself or my intelligence. And that's a large part of WHY I was able to be manipulated the way I was. So no, I'm not telling everyone that they have no hope of recognizing what's going on or when they're being manipulated - I'm saying that they're better off getting away from the person and not dealing with it at all.
It's stupid to keep giving someone that you know is trying to take advantage of you the opportunity to do so. Why would you do that? Ego? Well, screw your ego, and get out of that situation, because it is far more likely to end badly for you than positively. No matter how smart you think you are, and the more you think you're immune, smugly sure that you have nothing to worry about - the easier it is to play with and take advantage of that vanity.
This is what I see:
The first statement is saying. If you are dealing with a crafty manipulator, you will over estimate yourself and you will fail. Then you say that it is better to just avoid. But how can you avoid a crafty manipulator; when, as you have said the automatic action is to overestimate yourself? Obviously any post after that one is irrelevant because they automatically won't follow it because everyone will over-estimate themselves.
you'd be able to understand it much better if you stopped nit picking.
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