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Thread: Gun Control

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    Default Gun Control

    It is not paranoid to assume that governments can operate outside of the best interests of its citizens in drastic ways.

    Discuss.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
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    Under cerulean skies...

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    2nd amendment is actually our right to rebel. Take that away and we're scrood. Give everyone a gun and we'll have old school salloon shootouts.

    I vote for the latter, because that sounds awesome.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Violent crime rates can't really be compared from country to country. Recording is too diffucult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reporting differences
    Violent crime

    The burglary rates of selected developed countries as published by the US Bureau of Justice Statistics
    The reported US violent crime rate includes only Aggravated Assault, whereas the Canadian violent crime rate includes all categories of assault, including the much-more-numerous Assault level 1 (i.e., assault not using a weapon and not resulting in serious bodily harm).[34][35] A Canadian government study concluded that direct comparison of the 2 countries' violent crime totals or rates was "inappropriate".[46]
    This is true to most euro countries as well as they report assault 1 as violent crimes.

    Also, if you want to rebel, you better be willing to get guns illegally. Duh.. Rebellion has occurred in countries with or without gun control or arms control by many means, including foreign armament, military desertion and various coup-de-etats.
    Che Guevara was a successful revolution, and he did as much to teach his solders how to read and write and read them stories as how to use a gun. A revolution is fundamentally about the heart of the people and government is still by people and people's hearts can be turned.

    Unfortunately history has show revolutionaries are just as fallible and prone to the despotic-ism they purport to fight and it's only thru a period of great turmoil that things eventually stabilize for a time.

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    I tend to see gun control debate as sort of like abortion, people are going to do it regardless and there are individuals on both sides willing to make it a big deal. Most countries do ban/prohibit some late term abortions while allowing for legal ones and many countries have significant gun control while still allow for legal gun. Yet people tend to fight tooth and nail over the details and ideological fundamentalism. Most countries have some level of gun control and I don't see it not existing at some level. Given recent events, that's likely to change in the US, and I don't really exaggerating the issue is going to do much.

    Oh yes, as an aside some FPSRussia producer got capped in the back of the head. http://gawker.com/5974187/well+known...spect-homicide

    I'm pretty sure the American populace/constitution wouldn't allow for a full ban on guns, but I think it's also unlikely that you can pick up a .50 cal machine gun, or a 20mm cannon in a corner store in the future either.

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    Again? Holy shit, guys.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Again? Holy shit, guys.
    This is important.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    This is important.
    It's an important issue. What is said on this forum about it doesn't mean shit. You're just flogging a dead horse for the sake of having something to argue about.
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    I don't mind having a safeguard for rebellion/militia, but considering what most people who champion it are actually like, I'd end up turning my guns on them first. It's like having a choice between hanging out at a PTA meeting on a Saturday Night.. Or the redneck house party down the street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    It's an important issue. What is said on this forum about it doesn't mean shit. You're just flogging a dead horse for the sake of having something to argue about.
    Or maybe hoping that a couple more people will read this thread and actually think about it.

    You don't matter in this discussion anyways, you live in fucking Mexico.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Or maybe hoping that a couple more people will read this thread and actually think about it.

    You don't matter in this discussion anyways, you live in fucking Mexico.
    People are thinking about it already. Someone just gunned down 20 first graders while they were making ginger bread houses.

    I'm an American citizen and a human-being. Of course I care. I'm just shocked that you people are having the same conversation with the exactly the same arguments you made three days ago.

    You care? Go do something constructive. Join the fucking NRA.
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    The NRA is an extremist corporate interest lobby. I don't give a shit about them, nor do I think joining them would be "constructive."

    And I never said anything about you "caring." I'm saying that your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't live here.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    2nd amendment is actually our right to rebel. Take that away and we're scrood. Give everyone a gun and we'll have old school salloon shootouts.

    I vote for the latter, because that sounds awesome.
    Lol good luck fighting off dem predator drones with your gun, bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The NRA is an extremist corporate interest lobby. I don't give a shit about them, nor do I think joining them would be "constructive."

    And I never said anything about you "caring." I'm saying that your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't live here.
    Really? Honestly? You're one of those "GIT OUT OF MURKA" types?

    My opinion is invalid because I don't feel like living there at the moment? I'm a citizen. My opinion does matter, but it's an extremely complicate issue that I don't go spouting off about. My voice is far louder than yours. If I felt like I had anything genuinely new and constructive to add to the conversation I could publish an article that would instantly reach 15 million readers.

    By the way, my comments about the NRA were tongue-in-cheek. However, the NRA is not simply "corporate interest lobby" their "political victory fund" made 14 million dollars worth of campaign contributions last election cycle. Their 4+ million plus members are encouraged to vote on the "grades" they give politicians. Their political significance is increasing rapidly.
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    State is by definition a violence machinery oligarchy or worse. The worse being a monopoly. Let's not go there.

    I advocate this although the legislature I am forced to live by hasn't brought us a lot of trouble yet. In Finland, private citizens aren't generally allowed to carry firearms, yet we have a lot of weapons per citizen. However, permissions to own a weapon are given mostly to hunters and hobbyists.

    I like the principle that the state should be afraid of it's citizens, but there are other reasons for me to advocate this.
    Prevention/alleviation of mass murder: Within the last five years we have had 2 school shootings and one mall shooting.
    National security: We live next to Russia.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    The state is citizens, so you're saying citizens should be afraid of themselves. That actually makes a lot of sense, Aqua.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    It's an important issue. What is said on this forum about it doesn't mean shit. You're just flogging a dead horse for the sake of having something to argue about.
    It's an established tradition here in the internet.

    This thread has been viewed by almost 200 times and more will come. If even one of the readers even mildly adjusted his/her stance, it has proved to be entertaining and it made progress. Of course Gilly, Ashton and the others weren't expecting to revolutionize the debate about gun control, but it's always a better alternative than debating about socionics.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Funny thread is funny. Oh and I thought you're against traditions, Aqua. And democratic governments do operate in "the best interests of its citizens", Gilly, the citizens themselves are this democratic government, so again that would mean they shoot themselves in the foot...

    Wouldn't it be easier to say you all want to live outside of civilised and technological society in woods, in a self-made box like the Unabomber?

    Who needs tiny chat, IRC and this forum, and any kind of technological evils, right?

    http://www.anus.com/zine/db/unabomber/

    Vital quotes

    "If you think that more effective law enforcement is unequivocally good because it suppresses crime, then remember that crime as defined by the system is not necessarily what YOU would call crime. Today, smoking marijuana is a "crime," and, in some places in the U.S.., so is possession of ANY firearm, registered or not, may be made a crime, and the same thing may happen with disapproved methods of child-rearing, such as spanking. In some countries, expression of dissident political opinions is a crime, and there is no certainty that this will never happen in the U.S., since no constitution or political system lasts forever."
    Well, looks like there is a lot of Unabombers on this site.
    Last edited by Absurd; 01-10-2013 at 11:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    It's an established tradition here in the internet.

    This thread has been viewed by almost 200 times and more will come. If even one of the readers even mildly adjusted his/her stance, it has proved to be entertaining and it made progress. Of course Gilly, Ashton and the others weren't expecting to revolutionize the debate about gun control, but it's always a better alternative than debating about socionics.
    Quite right.

    Continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Guns are
    Ashton, Gilly and you are all gun-seeking victims.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Spotting/tracking a target (and nailing it) is the cool part. I've always been uncomfortable with the noise/power aspect though (maybe that's downplaying the Se). And especially dislike it from other people. It's kind of like driving. I don't trust a lot of people's skills/responsibility there either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Lol good luck fighting off dem predator drones with your gun, bro.
    I think individual rebels getting massacred by the military would do more for a rebellion than the use of weapons by rebels in-of-itself. US military men would probably have difficulties killing their own countrymen and being forced to kill their own people might bring home the horror of their situation thus possibly leading to military defections. But then again would rebels have the confidence to put themselves into a position to be martyred if they didn't have weapons?

    Edit: Also martyrs tend to lead to more people willing to fight and die for a cause (the dying bit is important).
    Last edited by leckysupport; 01-10-2013 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Really? Honestly? You're one of those "GIT OUT OF MURKA" types?
    What? You live in Mexico; therefore your opinion of what the US should be like internally means nil. Fuck your citizenship, you live THERE, not HERE, so your opinion what goes on HERE is meaningless.

    My opinion is invalid because I don't feel like living there at the moment? I'm a citizen. My opinion does matter, but it's an extremely complicate issue that I don't go spouting off about. My voice is far louder than yours. If I felt like I had anything genuinely new and constructive to add to the conversation I could publish an article that would instantly reach 15 million readers.
    Hmmm, so you have such a "loud voice" and yet you do nothing with it? Decide to sit in Mexico and play with your little doggie instead? Suuuure.

    By the way, my comments about the NRA were tongue-in-cheek. However, the NRA is not simply "corporate interest lobby" their "political victory fund" made 14 million dollars worth of campaign contributions last election cycle. Their 4+ million plus members are encouraged to vote on the "grades" they give politicians. Their political significance is increasing rapidly.
    99% of people who join the NRA already have their votes decided. I doubt they actually sway many people from the middle.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Everyones opinion who isn't American nor lives in U.S means nothing, Gilly. Change the name of this thread to "Gun Control only for Americans and White People."

    It's misleading so far and Scape has fallen prey to the deception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I think individual rebels getting massacred by the military would do more for a rebellion than the use of weapons by rebels in-of-itself. US military men would probably have difficulties killing their own countrymen and being forced to kill their own people might bring home the horror of their situation thus possibly leading to military defections. But then again would rebels have the confidence to put themselves into a position to be martyred if they didn't have weapons?

    Edit: Also martyrs tend to lead to more people willing to fight and die for a cause (the dying bit is important).
    I'm all for owning guns for the purposes of hunting or home protection. Not here trying to argue for a total gun ban or anything, but the whole, we need guns so we can rebel if we have to just makes me chuckle a bit. I mean consider Syria. Protests lead to state violence, leads to armed rebellion, deaths on a massive scale. Only instead of the Syrian military it would be the USA.
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    In Socionics America, guns control you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    I'm all for owning guns for the purposes of hunting or home protection. Not here trying to argue for a total gun ban or anything, but the whole, we need guns so we can rebel if we have to just makes me chuckle a bit. I mean consider Syria. Protests lead to state violence, leads to armed rebellion, deaths on a massive scale. Only instead of the Syrian military it would be the USA.
    It's true that the your army is huge enough to fare well against most freedom fighters in foreign soil, so why not on your own. Then again the resistance is relentless and consuming. Kill a "terrorist" and ten more will take up arms. Another issue is that American soldiers are not so eager to fight against Westerners.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    What? You live in Mexico; therefore your opinion of what the US should be like internally means nil. Fuck your citizenship, you live THERE, not HERE, so your opinion what goes on HERE is meaningless.



    Hmmm, so you have such a "loud voice" and yet you do nothing with it? Decide to sit in Mexico and play with your little doggie instead? Suuuure.



    99% of people who join the NRA already have their votes decided. I doubt they actually sway many people from the middle.
    I'm still attempting to figure how the fact that I currently live in Mexico has anything to do with this particular subject. Although I don't like the country I am, again, a citizen and I will most likely live there again (at the very least for graduate school). I have family and friends there. I don't want anyone to shoot them. I don't want them to feel as though their rights are being violated.

    No, I haven't been doing nothing. I've been helping my boyfriend (oh em gee a Canadian with a green card who lives in Mexico) research and write articles on the subject that have been widely read. Again I don't feel like I have anything profound to say on the subject. I don't think there is an easy answer and, as a victim of gun violence I understand that my tendency to shy away from ordinary citizens packing lethal weapons is biased. I'm not going to go blathering on about something that is being addressed by people far more competent on the subject than I am.

    Thanks for your well researched statement at the of your post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Ashton, Gilly and you are all gun-seeking victims.
    As an outdoorsman my pappy kept a fair arsenal in the house and instructed me in safe and respectful firearm handling from the earliest age, so guns are familiar and normal to me. I support the right of gun ownership for hunting and home defense, and I strongly advocate for proper screening and training of prospective gun owners to help ensure that firearms are operated responsibly. To the extent that there is a supposed "gun problem" in the US, this is the product of numerous other socio-cultural maladies than simple availability to firearms. That is, in the commission of ending lives, guns are a means, not a cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    As an outdoorsman my pappy kept a fair arsenal in the house and instructed me in safe and respectful firearm handling from the earliest age, so guns are familiar and normal to me. I support the right of gun ownership for hunting and home defense, and I strongly advocate for proper screening and training of prospective gun owners to help ensure that firearms are operated responsibly. To the extent that there is a supposed "gun problem" in the US, this is the product of numerous other socio-cultural maladies than simple availability to firearms. That is, in the commission of ending lives, guns are a means, not a cause.
    Agreed.

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    I don't really understand why people think the idea of having citizens armed to protect against the government is such a bad thing. It doesn't necessarily mean they will have to use them, but the fact that states could revolt will definitely add some leverage against what the Federal government might try to impose should it get too out of control. Leverage isn't a bad thing to keep power balanced; again it's not necessarily about using them, but acting as a deterrent to what the Federal Government might try and do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I'm still attempting to figure how the fact that I currently live in Mexico has anything to do with this particular subject. Although I don't like the country I am, again, a citizen and I will most likely live there again (at the very least for graduate school). I have family and friends there. I don't want anyone to shoot them. I don't want them to feel as though their rights are being violated.

    No, I haven't been doing nothing. I've been helping my boyfriend (oh em gee a Canadian with a green card who lives in Mexico) research and write articles on the subject that have been widely read. Again I don't feel like I have anything profound to say on the subject. I don't think there is an easy answer and, as a victim of gun violence I understand that my tendency to shy away from ordinary citizens packing lethal weapons is biased. I'm not going to go blathering on about something that is being addressed by people far more competent on the subject than I am.

    Thanks for your well researched statement at the of your post.
    Thank you for contributing nothing to this thread and using it as another excuse to wax your feminine intellectual phallus. Byebye.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Not that one even needs a constitution or bill of rights to recognize that this is a fundamentally good idea.
    Umm, Ashton, many do. I can imagine many gun nuts not recognizing the anarchist function of that right. Many people think think that patriotism is about following the will of the government and that the right to carry arms is about enabling to citizens to protect themselves against common criminals.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    When this is added on your satellites and you have adopted RFID chips, then you can have a war on your own soil again.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I think the entire notion of 'rights' is normative silliness.
    People believe in those things like they were universally true. It's functional to a society. If 70% of Chinese believed that they have the right to assemble, things would be quite different. Our ideals that have no basis on the physical world change the physical world.

    Bill of Rights, Magna Carta and most money are mere paper but people's beliefs about their power shape the world a lot more than cynics do.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Again this seems like an argument we both agree on, although how we put it may differ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I think cynicism gets an unnecessary bad rap—there's nothing objectionable about skeptically questioning common beliefs, or criticizing societal practices. Quite a few desirable social changes have been brought about that way, obviously, and determinatively shaped others beliefs thereafter.
    You support that it should be seen as a right, just like you support the view about extreme right of ownership. While we may see zealous clinging to rights as something with intrinsic value as nave, we should see them as means to an end. Most people will be more or less nave about this. In order to optimize this factoid we should see it as a tool to make the sheep support these overtly simplifying rigid principles for our own more complex agenda. It doesn't matter if the people believe in good things for the wrong reasons.
    I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Marxist Neer-do-well Red Villain's Avatar
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    I don't like Mao, but I don't think I've heard truer words regarding the matter at hand: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
    "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It is not paranoid to assume that governments can operate outside of the best interests of its citizens in drastic ways.

    Discuss.

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