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Thread: Guides for dual pairs: getting acquainted with an ENTj

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    Default Guides for dual pairs: getting acquainted with an ENTj

    This is a translation of a summary on meeting and getting acquainted with ENTjs posted up on Russian forums by Vladimir Mironov, who runs the Dynamic Socionics Center and self-types as LIE (original article).
    Note: Since this has been written by LIE-Ni (so/sx 7w6), this guide will be less applicable to LIEs and ESIs of other subtypes.


    ++added: see also Duality observations



    Getting acquainted with an ENTj

    Lets divide this process into stages.
    First stage: introduction, first meeting.
    I apologize in advance that my story will follow certain gender roles; it was unavoidable.

    Based on personal observations, I came to the following conclusions. Dreisers, as introverts, like to be drawn into communication and rarely take the initiative themselves. (So most often Jacks (LIEs) looks for Dreisers (ESIs), and the later wait for their “prince on a white horse”). Nevertheless, the more objectivity there is in your application*, the greater the likelihood of striking up an acquaintance. Jack receives information very concretely. I.e. for example, "I only smoke when I am in a bad mood" will not tell him anything and is likely to put him off. Or "Sometimes I smoke and sometimes I don’t smoke," also doesn’t say anything. Either you smoke or not, there is no middle point.
    [*This text was posted on a website that also has a dating section, hence the references about writing online dating profiles.]

    Putting on all available at your hands makeup is not necessary. It won’t be appreciated. First of all, LIE simply won’t notice it (out of anxiety and weakened sensing). Second, if there are significant differences in how you look with and without makeup, there will be an unpleasant feeling – “I was cheated”. Thankfully, Dreisers usually do not abuse makeup.

    The same goes for photos. It is understandable that ten years ago you were better-looking, thinner, etc. But that was ten years ago. Having seen the younger photos, when meeting you in person Jack will estimate what’s going to happen at 50, 60, 70 (add as necessary). And he will do this automatically. Do you really want this?

    Half a year correspondence with Jack via chat is unrealistic. If Jack has been corresponding with you for this long, it means he doesn’t have any further plans that involve you. Same applies to email. The moral here is: if you yourself feel any romantic interest, you should start trying to cut the distance yourself.

    "How to catch Jack."
    There are many hooks for Jacks; I won’t share them all, however.

    Inviting Jack to your home, especially if you are alone, will be appreciated. Even if (and most likely) nothing will be said or shown. But the subconscious mindset that “only selected few are allowed into the den” is present in Jack, even more so if you are alone, then it means you trust him. And trust Jacks value and cherish, no matter what is said about them.

    If Jack is traveling for a date to an unfamiliar place, it’s better to tell him how many stops he needs to go (at least approximately) i.e. provide some details about the route. A good memory for figures will not fail even if his absent-mindedness prevails and the piece of paper with scribbled address is forgotten at home.

    Don’t pay attention to the fact that Jack arrives with muddy shoes. He may have cleaned them especially for you for the first time this quarter, but stepped in a puddle on a road, or perhaps he remembered it up until the last moment, but when he was gathering he was already with you mentally (Jacks live in the future), and became aware of it only upon reaching your place. I can assure you that at this point he will feel very disappointed.

    As any intuitive type, Jack loves twilight atmosphere, so dim lights or a pair of candles on the table will be appreciated. In Jack-Dreiser dual pair, it is Jack who has to exercise foresight, so at first meeting such prudence and discernment are bound to impress.

    It would be constructive to ask Jack for some help. It wouldn’t hurt to complain a bit how life isn’t easy for you - this refuses to work, that cannot be done, without providing any further guidance for him to help. For example, make him cut a loaf of bread with a dull knife, then comment that you have already gotten used to this. The realization that someone needs help and he can provide it will be valued by Jack. Have you seen the cartoon "Chip'n Dale Rescue Rangers"? It's about us.

    Conversation.
    For a while I’ve searched for text of A.A., where she describes Dreiser’s dreams about her husband. It turned out to be a classic Jack. Unfortunately, I did not find it, so I will try to depict it in a few words. You should give Jack an opportunity to talk about what is going on around him, or rather let him talk himself out, maybe steer the conversation a little. Then you can relax and enjoy. In socionics terms this is called requesting information via the suggestive function.

    The ending of the date is better negotiated as a discussion on when it is best to leave. For example, say that it is better to do it at 22:00 because later the buses come very rarely. Or if you have been strolling around, say that you should be back no later than 10pm, otherwise your family will be worried. With this Jack can be saved from unnecessary awkwardness and uncertainty at the end of the meeting (is it or is it not the time to go? and if it is time to go, I wouldn't want to seem intrusive). In general, regulation of all such these ethical moments you should take onto your shoulders, as well as sensory ones. While Jack will contemplate (to himself) whether it is ok to kiss you or not, you can gently peck him on the cheek and briskly walk back towards your apartment.

    The state of uncertainty weighs heavily on Jack. During parting, it is better for you to say something rather than escaping as a ghost in the night. Such that Jack doesn’t once again feel himself a "lone wolf" (and Jacks are often lonely). If Jack hears from you "until the next weekend," this will be enough.

    Here it is necessary to give out a "military secret". Jacks don't love themselves. And fear that nobody else will ever love them. I'm ugly, I'm worse than others, I too thin (too fat, too short, too tall, add as needed), how can anyone love someone like this. Therefore, the awareness that someone pays attention to such an ugly duckling (very accurate image) comes as a pleasant surprise.

    On second meeting:
    Even though Jacks are extroverted and usually restless, sometimes they need rest. More precisely, to take a deep breath before the next plunge. As you may already suspect, this is the time Jacks spend in communication with Dreisers. The problem is that, in my experience, sensing types relax while "dancing", in the literal and figurative sense, but intuitive types relax by sharing ideas. Note the difference. In short, a trip to the museum or the theater, Jack can provide, as well as a club, but he won’t get any rest there. Jack can rest alone and together with Dreiser, and the less people will be around - the better. And, the more unrestrained and unburdened Jack feels, the more wacky of an idea for he will forward for joint pastime. Sensory discomforts will not frazzle him.

    How to feed Jack?
    Communicating with other Jacks I came to an unambiguous conclusion regarding the food: the simpler the food, the more Jack likes it.

    Once I was a witness to how ESE cooked for an LII - a piece of pork was rolled in so many spices that from the meat there remained not a hint. Then I tried it all… eee.. eeh… such amount of spices in the number and volume I have never consumed at the same time. I guess this is cool ... but not for Jacks. Jacks like simple food and thank God this is how Dreisers cook.

    And not only Dreisers. A big misconception exists that Jacks can’t even listen to anything that has to do with food. Jacks don’t like to eat and generally regard food with some disdain, and even contempt (a trait that allows to accurately type Jacks, Hamlets have a completely different outlook), but to show off the PoLR/mobilizing function is not a problem for him and to cook some tasty dish for some event or occasion for Jack is doable. And note, that it will all be prepared on the basis of "theory", however, in practice it often turns out pretty good. In short, ask your Jack how he can surprise you, and he will surprise you a good meal and good wine.

    To sleep or not to sleep, that is the question? And if you sleep together, then when should you do it?

    Jacks are not very brave or forceful in terms of taking the initiative to establish relations when it concerns serious relations. Flirting can be perceived as a turn down, which will immediately entail shifting of attention to another object. Any uncertain move can be interpreted wrongly. Here is an area where Jack doesn't know the answer to the question "what should be done". Unfortunately, gender stereotypes don’t allow the woman to take the initiative, though it should be taken here. Jack can talk away the entire night retelling an interesting story, but he will always wait for the first step of a partner. And it doesn't matter whether this move entails taking his hand or the first kiss. Or rather not even the first step, but a signal that such move is permissible. Even receiving such a "pass", Jacks often will not rapidly initiate sexual relations at that point.

    Seeking access to the bed, sometimes stubbornly, Jack tries not to get "access to the body” but rather earn your trust. That is a measure of confidence – “I have been admitted to the inner sanctum. I actually passed, I was really appreciated.” On the other hand, if the girl demonstrates “physical accessibility” too soon, Jack will turn away from her or will use her too much “to the purpose". Generally, if you are Dreiser, whenever you approach the area of white ethics in your relationship, it is necessary for you to make the first move. All initiative is in your hands.
    Last edited by silke; 06-18-2017 at 07:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    To sleep or not to sleep, that is the question? And if you sleep together, then when should you do it?

    Jacks are not very brave or forceful in terms of taking the initiative to establish relations when it concerns serious relations. Flirting can be perceived as a turn down, which will immediately entail shifting of attention to another object. Any uncertain move can be interpreted wrongly. Here is an area where Jack doesn't know the answer to the question "what should be done". Unfortunately, gender stereotypes don’t allow the woman to take the initiative, though it should be taken here. Jack can talk away the entire night retelling an interesting story, but he will always wait for the first step of a partner. And it doesn't matter whether this move entails taking his hand or the first kiss. Or rather not even the first step, but a signal that such move is permissible. Even receiving such a "pass", Jacks often will not rapidly initiate sexual relations at that point.

    Seeking access to the bed, sometimes stubbornly, Jack tries not to get "access to the body” but rather earn your trust. That is a measure of confidence – “I have been admitted to the inner sanctum. I actually passed, I was really appreciated.” On the other hand, if the girl demonstrates “physical accessibility” too soon, Jack will turn away from her or will use her too much “to the purpose". Generally, if you are Dreiser, whenever you approach the area of white ethics in your relationship, it is necessary for you to make the first move. All initiative is in your hands.
    Hmmm... this is an interesting contrast to the post on how to seduce an ESI (four posts into this topic).
    Johari/Nohari

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    closet lurkers of russian socionics forums SHOW YOURSELVES (and c/p the interesting stuff for the rest of us)

    aw the part ryene quoted makes entjs sound endearing.
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    Jacks don't love themselves. And fear that nobody else will ever love them. I'm ugly, I'm worse than others, I too thin (too fat, too short, too tall, add as needed), how can anyone love someone like this. Therefore, the awareness that someone pays attention to such an ugly duckling (very accurate image) comes as a pleasant surprise.
    lol aww. some LIE men are pretty attractive though (I like a bit of dorkiness.)

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    Eh, this portrait seems extremely extremely dorky. I can see his point here and there, but it's not like every ENTj is a 21 yo theorethical physics student.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I need other half of the picture. I'm out of chloroform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    I need other half of the picture. I'm out of chloroform.
    I have some. Here, rape yourself.

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    The physical descriptions more accurate when I was in my teens. The rest sounds about right. The loaf of bread is hilarious but would not take too kindly to being fooled. If individual hooks me, I'll find it funny in retrospect. If I find out before the hook, I'd find the individual weird, desperate or disingenuous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly McFluffles View Post
    Hmmm... this is an interesting contrast to the post on how to seduce an ESI (four posts into this topic).
    I actually thought the theme was similar. Dreiser has to trust first before it will allow access and the Jack seeks trust first.
    Or at least it appears so from these articles

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBaddaBoom View Post
    The physical descriptions more accurate when I was in my teens. The rest sounds about right. The loaf of bread is hilarious but would not take too kindly to being fooled. If individual hooks me, I'll find it funny in retrospect. If I find out before the hook, I'd find the individual weird, desperate or disingenuous.
    No doubt. And my ESE mother would have me fool people in this way which i find abhorrent. If Jack wants to help me I'll get prideful and not let it help. This is in contrast to how this article gives advice.

    If i actually wanted help i would just say so. I have enough respect for myself and others to at least offer the most basic form of honesty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinoches View Post
    closet lurkers of russian socionics forums SHOW YOURSELVES (and c/p the interesting stuff for the rest of us)

    aw the part ryene quoted makes entjs sound endearing.
    :') very. I'd have quite a hard time letting this person down.

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    I read this a while ago and agree with almost everything said (I actually was a 21 year old theoretical physics student, so maybe that's why it applies). When I first read it I was astounded at how much of it applied to me.
    Except I do really like to dance.

    In regard to closing the distance by asking LIE's to sharpen a dull knife, that has happened to me. I was glad to do it. I never looked past the request to see some hidden motive, I just did the 15 degree angle thing with a medium-fine Arkansas stone. Carbon steel can get wicked sharp, 'tho Zirconia has it beat.

    In meeting Duals, I think I'm getting better with practice. Only one has ever approached me first, and that was to talk about Astrophysics. Otherwise, I've had to recognize them by their unique style of dress and an attitude that says "Don't bother me, I don't want to be here and you're probably a moron or an axe-murderer", then approach them and say something totally stupid, not about them, but about the ridiculousness of the situation. They're already thinking that the situation is ridiculous (whatever it is), so you immediately have some something in common you can agree on.
    They're easy to talk to, because they are straightforward and honest (although privately suspicious of your motives and generally off-putting, so you've got to actually be honest to get past their detectors). But, as the original article said, if they are too off-putting for too long, I find that it is hard to close the distance. In those cases, the ESI is not looking for new acquaintances, so it is best to take her at her word and move on.

    With regard to intimacy, the article is also pretty correct, although I have initiated maybe most of the time (that's sx-first, maybe). Sometimes within a few hours or minutes of meeting a woman, so that part of the article is not completely correct. But most of those times were with women I didn't care about, and they weren't exactly looking for a long term relationship, either. If I care about a woman, then yes, I want to establish trust first. A lot of trust. If that makes me sound like a pussy, well, so be it, I'll have to work on being more "male" in other parts of my life. I just refuse to jerk around someone I care about.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-27-2015 at 02:17 AM.

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    D;
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    Pretty good article. Trust is important in any romantic relationship but it's double important for the victim types. We fear you'll leave us once something or someone "better" comes along. We live in fear of not being enough for our partner, and the more they show that we are the more at peace we feel in the relationship. This goes for both genders who are victim types, we want to trust you yet there's a part of our brains that's just screaming at us that something is off. That the whole situation is too good to be true and that there's some secret you're keeping and/or some vile behavior you're engaging in behind our backs.

    Thankfully, if you're an aggressor it's rather easy to fix this, and that's by having sex with your victim. Give them the carnal pleasure they desire even though they may protest a little. We like it, that close feeling you get when you're making love, like it's just the two of us in the whole world embracing each other in the most complete way possible. Makes the rest of the bullshit in our lives a lot easier to deal with, and we're thankful that you're there to provide that little island of bliss in a world filled with pain. And don't cheat, that'd pretty much kill us emotionally. If we don't got major issues we'd never cheat on you so it's only fair you reciprocate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Jack can talk away the entire night retelling an interesting story, but he will always wait for the first step of a partner. And it doesn't matter whether this move entails taking his hand or the first kiss. Or rather not even the first step, but a signal that such move is permissible. Even receiving such a "pass", Jacks often will not rapidly initiate sexual relations at that point.

    Seeking access to the bed, sometimes stubbornly, Jack tries not to get "access to the body” but rather earn your trust. That is a measure of confidence – “I have been admitted to the inner sanctum. I actually passed, I was really appreciated.” On the other hand, if the girl demonstrates “physical accessibility” too soon, Jack will turn away from her or will use her too much “to the purpose". Generally, if you are Dreiser, whenever you approach the area of white ethics in your relationship, it is necessary for you to make the first move. All initiative is in your hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    With regard to intimacy, the article is also pretty correct, although I have initiated maybe most of the time (that's sx-first, maybe). Sometimes within a few hours or minutes of meeting a woman, so that part of the article is not completely correct. But most of those times were with women I didn't care about, and they weren't exactly looking for a long term relationship, either. If I care about a woman, then yes, I want to establish trust first. A lot of trust. If that makes me sound like a pussy, well, so be it, I'll have to work on being more "male" in other parts of my life. I just refuse to jerk around someone I care about.
    I want to add something too. I agree with a lot of what Adam says. Maybe it is the 8 sx adding to it. But some elements where article says Jack is unsure, cautious, wants woman to make first move are both true and untrue for me. On multiple occasions I have kissed a woman only for her to say -- what took you so long?

    But I observe flirting quite easily and once, like the article suggests, I can see -- someone has allowed me into their space (it says inner sanctum I guess, but I mean more like physical space) then I am in, my desire is activated and mobilised. But in this situation although I can appear calm and confident, in reality I am very nervous. The military secret that Mironov reveals is quite a true one I think.

    But sometimes the article is a bit untrue, because if I am really drawn towards woman then I quite easily take the lead and make the first move, if only slight signal is shown that it would be acceptable to do so.

    (Unlike Adam, I hate dancing, btw).

    One last point on the last part:

    On the other hand, if the girl demonstrates “physical accessibility” too soon, Jack will turn away from her or will use her too much “to the purpose".

    This is broadly true. I am pretty active in the dating scene in the last year, and have had a lot of 'success' so to speak with casual relationships, but I find myself either drawn directly away from people who put out too early or I end up using too much 'to the purpose' so to speak. So I'm getting what Adam says, if reason to meet up with woman is only for mutual pleasure, I am not so much concerned and go very straight to the point. But with someone who I am really interested in I am MUCH closer to the way the article is written -- more nervous, more dorky, more patient.
    go on type me I fuckin dare u

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