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Thread: Plus/minus functions in conversation

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Default Plus/minus functions in conversation

    Ok, so being as vague as I can, I want to demonstrate, and hopefully this makes sense, how the plus minus exchange works in conversation; specifically using this chart and the following example


    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's*actual*potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something*could*be).
    +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.


    Example:

    Speaking to an LSE, who says: "I was thinking we meet this person here, because from what I know about this individual, they would feel best here."

    meet the person here - Te plus - productive action
    they would feel best here - Si minus - decision based on intensity of internal state in given situations based on memory

    Me: "I want to meet your friends, parent, in laws, maybe I should meet...; you should try sage tea, I hear that in such a such a place it's good for cough or rose hip tea for vitamin C?"

    meet everyone - Fi plus - extend friendship
    the possibility of sage tea for medicinal purpose or rose hip tea for vitamin C - Ne minus - possibility of one thing.

    Finally from me "can this work this way?" Translation: can not tell the efficiency of this action, requiring someone to JUDGE the productivity of this line of analysis or thinking in terms of it's external working/dynamic value.

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    Haikus
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    uhh.... socionics BS aside, I definitely prefer quality over quantity.

    While playing WoW the other day, I wondered why they can't make the fights a little longer- but not have as many as them.

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    + = Quantity users
    and
    - = Quality users ?

    Won't put much time writing a lot about this so I'll give a thought. I think to the level of the importance of a situation we do both where precision, focus and time gives a more quality aspect to how we think and quantity is when higher pressure is induced. In can be loosely tied to procrastination.

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    Not Bad Maritsa.

    For myself, i will say that -Ni(Reliability of Prediction) is clearly what i would favor of the two choices. And +Fe(Emotional Intensity) i can construe to make sense, in that the stronger the visceral reaction that i have to something, the more that thing can affect and help me grow. So "emotional intensity", motivates me. Meaning is inferred and purpose is derived. Happiness on the other hand, is the shadow to sadness. I prefer the idea of Joy, the state of mind that keeps your spirit in love with life.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    The FI dominants that i ran this information through(in question form), pretty much all got hung up on the term "Sacrifice". That someone +Fi sacrifices close, trustworthy relation for extending a hand of friendship to everyone. And thus would care less about those that are close, and trustworthy to them than being Fi-ey with everyone they meet.

    I felt as though it was merely a, do you keep it closed off and exclusively given to a particular bubble of people(-Fi) or are you willing to open it up to others outside that group as well(+Fi). I figured i'd ask you what you actually mean.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Where is the wikisocion article on this. I cannot find it.
     
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    Ok, found the article. It only list the plus minus aspect for the lead functions of each type. What are they for all eight functions in each type?

    Here is the article. http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...Plus_and_minus
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
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    The +Te type, which is monologue and opportunistic, is going to be acute Te, often in succession. +Te HA and +Te DS is going to want these shorter, more concise segments of +Te.

    On the other hand, the -Si type, which is monologue and algorhythmic, is going to be obtuse Si, or rather, Si that perceives more breadth of Si information, who flits from wave to wave, like even flowing water. -Si HA and -Si DS is going to want this drawn out atmosphere.

    This is pain to the other.

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    Ok so Alpha is this:

    Rational -Ti –Fi - Te - Fe

    -Ti is willing to sacrifice quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), for quality (logical correctness)
    -Te is willing to sacrifice quantity (productivity of action), for quality (efficiency of action)
    -Fi is willing to sacrifice quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), in preference to quality (close, trustworthy relations)
    -Fe is willing to sacrifice quantity (emotional intensity), for quality (happiness)


    Irrational + Ne + Se + Ni + Si

    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's*actual*potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something*could*be).
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.

    Looking at this, I had an epiphany! You see, I agree with all these plus minus aspects except I feel alot of distress with Fe: I am deeply torn on this issue. I want happiness more than anything, but I feel deep pain over the sacrifice of emotional intensity. I want both. This is troubling. Then I noticed that I experience similar distress with Te, I want effective action - I want the true solution, and I do not care about productivity. However, this causes pain as the perfectionism tests my fortitude like an unanswered prayer. I do not like redoing everything because it must be perfect. I want to launch the product, but it must be awesomely perfect. I tear it down and do it again, wearing me out in the process. Then I made a quick mental association! I am the DCHN subtype D. This means I have stronger Te/Fe than the usual LII, which makes me behave like a pseudo E/j in energy level.

    From this I deduce the following possibility. The DCHN subtype system could be connected to the plus minus functions. As a subtyping system, its theoretical foundation can be justified here. The stronger Fe/Te of the D subtype is a type of cognitive dissonance with their personality type’s core +/- breakdown on certain paired J/P functions. This causes a change in energy as the person must fight with conflicted orientations.

    My energy level wants to go to happiness and effectiveness but I wrestle against that trend! I do not want my energy to go that way. This causes a struggle to increase my energy levels to that of the E/js. This is then an unstable energy level...

    Thus the DCHN subtype system is not based on inert/contact nor is it based on accepting/producing but instead on +/-. DCHN is a plus minus subtype system!
    And the Russians did not even notice it!

    @mikesilb Check this thread out! I think we are close to finally answering some DCHN questions!

    EDIT: The DCHN subtype system could be more difficult to visualize. I need time to resolve all the possibilities. Do you think that as a C-EIE that you want to be more assertive with the Alpha style Se/Ne? Or are you conflicted with the Alpha style Se/Ne?

    It might be that Alpha D's will want to work against the Alpha Style of extraverted judging (JE is Fe/Te.) Alpha C will want to roll deeper into Alpha style extraverted perceiving (PE is Se/Ne.) Alpha H will also fight against Alpha style introverted perceiving, (PI is Ni/Si) but Alpha N will seek to roll into deeper Alpha style introverted judging (JI is Fi/Ti.)

    Alpha D is against Alpha style JE.
    Alpha C is strongly for Alpha style PE
    Alpha H is against Alpha style PI
    Alpha N is strongly for Alpha style JI.

    Maybe?
    Last edited by Saberstorm; 01-07-2013 at 09:49 PM.
     
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    Hey Saber,

    I am still at the point where I am trying to understand the gist of what you are saying. What confuses me is why alpha Ds and Hs would be against their corresponding alpha plus/minus arrangement (for either Je or Pi, respectively) while Cs and Ns would be strongly aligned with their corresponding alpha plus/minus arrangement (for either Pe or Ji, respectively)?

    Also, is the cognitive dissonance (in your case) the fact that you would rather have +Fe and +Te but since alphas don't favor that, you feel the need to overcompensate by infusing additional Fe and/or Te to make it more 'plus-like'? Or is it that you want BOTH +Fe and -Fe (as well as +Te and -Te) and since alpha only has -Fe and -Te, half of the available desired Fe and Te states are fully available, and hence you will need to overcompensate by increasing the Je elements? Which of the above two makes more sense for you?

    Before I assess my own DCNH, I still want to understand the nature of that cognitive dissonance so that I can see precisely what motivated your intriguing analysis. If you can clarify this, that would be just great!

    Thanks so much!
    Mike
    Last edited by mikesilb; 01-08-2013 at 05:09 AM.
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    I am just throwing the idea out there. I have not really thought it over.

    I am attempting to see if a general rule can be drawn from my own experience. My own experience is that I seem to line up with alpha except at the Fe/Te. There, I seem to want it both ways. Essentially, my natural "groove" is to move towards the alpha style Fe/Te in that my energy would naturally drift that way. Except that is not what would satisfy me! This forces a kind of fight against my own natural tendency. I do not know if this can be established as a general rule that can be used to explain Socionic energy dynamics.

    I do not know if this could fit into the concept of an energy subtype system, but I throw the idea out there. Your own self typing is highly dependent on energy subtyping - thus I summon you to examine this. Anyway, I began to perhaps overthink the idea, and began to create additional possibilities, like each of the DCHN types would have different types of reactions inside of each quarta.


    I presented this as an example, but what I mean is energy subtyping could be similar to fighting against one kind of quarta tendency for one DCHN type and perhaps increasing a quarta tendency for another DCHN type. This could then vary in each quarta, like a D type in Beta might try to increase quarta tendencies, while resisting it in Alpha. I was brainstorming, so the presentation might be confusing. None of these ideas have been subjected to any troubleshooting. Thus, the need for your input.

    As a C-ESE how do you feel about your quarta +/- aspects? In particular, how do you feel about the Pe elements that should be manifest strongly in you? Are they similar to the alpha tendency or against it?

    This is the brainstorming preceding any real troubleshooting.
     
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    My confusing presentation is that I am an asking type, not a declairing one! I should have asked questions while mapping out in my mind where I am going, but keeping it secret to everybody else. I should then "declare" only in a finished or polished style article. My bad. Sorry.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The FI dominants that i ran this information through(in question form), pretty much all got hung up on the term "Sacrifice". That someone +Fi sacrifices close, trustworthy relation for extending a hand of friendship to everyone. And thus would care less about those that are close, and trustworthy to them than being Fi-ey with everyone they meet.

    I felt as though it was merely a, do you keep it closed off and exclusively given to a particular bubble of people(-Fi) or are you willing to open it up to others outside that group as well(+Fi). I figured i'd ask you what you actually mean.
    well, my close relations are a constant; so in Fi plus, willing to sacrifice close relations is willingness perhaps to stick up to them or against them, and not agree with them and try not to make any waves; a good example was this weekend; I want my family to extend friendship to someone I love, but they don't want to due to certain reasons, and I was willing to say "I don't agree with you" rather than say "I agree somewhat with you" to keep the peace. In doing this, standing up to them, I'm saying "you're not going to run away, I know you love me, but I want you to except and welcome someone else." This is unlike SEI, and there are many SEI forum members typing themselves INFj but do the opposite.

    SEI "I am willing to have this person banned because they mislead newcomers."
    EII "I think everyone can find their place and I think we should try to understand and welcome people we find odd."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    My confusing presentation is that I am an asking type, not a declairing one! I should have asked questions while mapping out in my mind where I am going, but keeping it secret to everybody else. I should then "declare" only in a finished or polished style article. My bad. Sorry.
    No problem at all. I value the fact that a) you wanted to brainstorm/theorize how this might work with ought necessarily having a final product. Trust me, I do this ALL the time, and sometimes I think that I am the king of theorizing how everything fits together. I'm totally cool with that, and b) that you value my unique vantage point to enough of an extent that you wanted to summon me. I feel honored actually!

    So this is all good! Now I just have to think about how this applies to me and my typing.

    Before I start, I still think that H-ESE is slightly favored. Why? Because I am a more socially-introverted extratim (vs. a pure extrovert) and I am a more outwardly laid back (perceiving/irrational) EJ type.

    However after discussing this with Krig, he thinks that due to my scientific propensities and background, I may be either a C(ile)-ESE or an N(lii)-ESE. Both are absolutely possible too. Perhaps this thread might inadvertently also shed light as to which DCNH I actually am.

    More about all this real soon! Thanks again!
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Ok so Alpha is this:

    Rational -Ti –Fi - Te - Fe

    -Ti is willing to sacrifice quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), for quality (logical correctness)
    -Te is willing to sacrifice quantity (productivity of action), for quality (efficiency of action)
    -Fi is willing to sacrifice quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), in preference to quality (close, trustworthy relations)
    -Fe is willing to sacrifice quantity (emotional intensity), for quality (happiness)


    Irrational + Ne + Se + Ni + Si

    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's*actual*potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something*could*be).
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    I know that what I am about to say gets more into Model B as an extension of Model A (and I am honestly not sure whether or not I agree with the model), but according to Model B, the IMs that we value actually differ to a certain extent. Looking only into the valued functions (1, 2, 5, and 6, since they dictate which quadra we favor, [vs. 3, 4, 7, and 8 which address the opposite quadra's concerns]), Model B claims that alphas would value the following IMs:

    +Ne
    -Ni
    +Si
    -Se
    -Fe
    +Fi
    -Ti
    +Te

    So this would be different than the sequence above that you mentioned. I am not sure which one makes more sense (especially since I really do not understand Model B with the type of inner clarity that I have for other aspects of Socionics).

    But anyway, lets see which ones I actually personally value (in isolation from theoretical considerations):

    After looking at Gulenko's article on +/-, here are my votes:

    1. -Fe (FeSi) with a slight advantage over +Fe (FeNi)
    2. -Ti (TiNe) with a moderate/decent-sized advantage over +Ti (TiSe)
    3. +Te (TeSi) with a slight edge over -Te (TeNi)
    4. +Fi (FiNe) hugely favored over -Fi (FiSe)
    5. +Ne (NeTi) with a small-to-moderate sized advantage over -Ne (NeFi)
    6. +Si (SiFe) hugely favored over -Si (SiTe)
    7. +Se (SeFi) slightly favored over -Se (SeTi)
    8. -Ni (NiFe) with a slight/minor advantage over +Ni (NiTe)

    Note the the only one in which I go against quadra values is #7 and that preference is really slim. Also with regards to Ne and Fe, I can see myself valuing both the plus and minus versions...however, the scientist in me would certainly favor +Ne over -Ne (which has a bit more of a people concern...which would remain high since I am interested in the potential of others [-Ne] as much as in the wide ranging theoretical expansion of options [+Ne]. Likewise, regarding Fe, I definitely value authentic expression [+Fe] but perhaps even more so, I value a certain friendliness/relatedness that is all about making the other person feel comfy and 'at home' [-Fe].

    So in summary, Ne and Fe have both favored plus AND minus elements, -Ti and +Fi (the two introverted rational IM elements) both have high preferences of one version over the other version. Finally +Si (which I value a lot) has a big edge over -Si (which I often can't stand)

    Now how that all fits into DCNH, I have no clue. I still contend that I am either an sei(H)-ESE, a ile(C)-ESE or even an lii(N)-ESE.

    1) I feel that a part of me has a more receptive, laid back flavor that would likely eliminate the N variant. 2) I think that C is very possible if you consider that ILE is probably a more introverted variation of an extraverted type (since theory, imagination, and abstract possibilities run the show here). Given my enthusiasm for science, learning, and academic matters, I think that a distinct possibility exists here. I tend to think that I have way more Ne than a lot of ESEs out there! 3) Finally, regarding H, there is an inherent sensitivity and non-desire to rock the boat throughout my interactions. I think that when I still viewed myself as an EIE/beta (erroneously), I could see that sensitivity would be a dominant theme that sets me apart. However, as an ESE/alpha (with a pretty large confidence that this is correct), that desire to not rock the boat is inherent in being part of alpha already. Thus, being an H is not as much a far-gone conclusion.

    I'm curious if you (Saberstorm) find any information here that supports or refutes your observations. Let me know whatever comes to mind! Thanks again!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's*actual*potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something*could*be).
    +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.
    Fascinating. Wait, that looks familiar for some reason...
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Of course it does, it's Model B with Maritsa addons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Fascinating. Wait, that looks familiar for some reason...
    Busted!

    That aside I think this type of analysis you provided:

    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding unreliable extrapolations of the future (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
    Beta Intuition: Investigating all possibilities (+Ne) to better reduce uncertainty about the future (-Ni).

    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
    Delta Intuition: Extrapolating into the future (+Ni) to better eliminate unlikely possibilities (-Ne).

    Is more valuable in helping to refine type descriptions than the +/- descriptions of the individual components.

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    Holy shit, another post "borrowed" by Maritsa as her own. Scapegrace, time to scream "intellectual dishonesty."

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Busted!

    That aside I think this type of analysis you provided:

    Alpha Intuition: Avoiding unreliable extrapolations of the future (-Ni) to better investigate all possibilities (+Ne).
    Beta Intuition: Investigating all possibilities (+Ne) to better reduce uncertainty about the future (-Ni).

    Gamma Intuition: Eliminating unlikely possibilities (-Ne) to extrapolate further into the future (+Ni).
    Delta Intuition: Extrapolating into the future (+Ni) to better eliminate unlikely possibilities (-Ne).

    Is more valuable in helping to refine type descriptions than the +/- descriptions of the individual components.
    It's a start, anyway.
    Quaero Veritas.

  21. #21
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    It must relate to these:

    +Ti cause/effect
    -Ti holographic
    +Fi cause/effect
    -Fi holographic
    +Fe opportunistic
    -Fe algorhythmic
    +Te opportunistic
    -Te algorhythmic
    +Se cause/effect
    -Se holographic
    +Ne cause/effect
    -Ne holographic
    +Si opportunistic
    -Si algorhythmic
    +Ni opportunistic
    -Ni algorhythmic

    These, positivist and negativist, are very strict relations these 4 information styles. Further, they explain a lot about them.

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    I HAD A REALLY AMAZING IDEA:

    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's actual potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something could be).
    +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.

    OH, WAIT, THAT IS STUFF I COPY-PASTED FROM KRIG.

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    To be fair, she didn't say she had come up with it. But neither did she give credit to Krig, nor link to where she got it, despite it being an obvious copy/paste. If she had been recalling it from personal memory, that's one thing, though could still make clear that it was something she was recalling having read somewhere.
    But @Maritsa Darmandzhyan, I believe a blatant copy/paste deserves SOME credit to it's creator.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Fascinating. Wait, that looks familiar for some reason...
    Yes that's where it comes from. I just put it into works.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    To be fair, she didn't say she had come up with it. But neither did she give credit to Krig, nor link to where she got it, despite it being an obvious copy/paste. If she had been recalling it from personal memory, that's one thing, though could still make clear that it was something she was recalling having read somewhere.
    But @Maritsa Darmandzhyan, I believe a blatant copy/paste deserves SOME credit to it's creator.
    Do you have to supervise what I'm doing? can't you do it at lease imperceptibly, that is without mentioning me?

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    From my email notification:

    Maritsa Darmandzhyan has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - plus/minus into works - in the General Discussion forum of Socionics - the16types.info forums.

    Here is the message that has just been posted:

    ***************
    ---Quote (Originally by anndelise)---
    To be fair, she didn't say she had come up with it. But neither did she give credit to Krig, nor link to where she got it, despite it being an obvious copy/paste. If she had been recalling it from personal memory, that's one thing, though could still make clear that it was something she was recalling having read somewhere.
    But Maritsa Darmandzhyan, I believe a blatant copy/paste deserves SOME credit to it's creator.
    ---End Quote---
    FU and you're a big B.

    I didn't say anywhere that it was mine and I didn't know the original author of it either. So go die.
    ***************

    @Maritsa Darmandzhyan,
    I DID point out that you didn't claim that it was yours in the "To be fair" portion of my post. (first sentence, even)
    I know, ....I'm such a B for standing up for you, even if momentarily.

    I mentioned you so that you would see that when you copy/paste someone's work, that it's BASIC RESPECT for their work/effort to give them credit or to link your reader to it. There was a chance that maybe you didn't know about such a simple thing, hence the mention so you could maybe keep that in mind for your future posts.

    One of the things I do (and I sometimes still forget, myself) is that when I copy/save someone's work into my notes, I try to include a copy of the link, or a name of the person or website which I got it from. And when I've forgotten to do that, I try to be sure that I make it clear that this was something I had read somewhere so that it's clear to my reader that the work isn't mine.

    I think the original post was a good stab at encouraging conversation about a part of socionics theory. It would be nice, imo, to see more such threads. Hopefully next time you'll consider your reference's emotions/thoughts when(if) you copy-paste his/her work. A little bit of empathy for him/her goes a long way, in those kinds of situations.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    It must relate to these:

    +Ti cause/effect
    -Ti holographic
    +Fi cause/effect
    -Fi holographic
    +Fe opportunistic
    -Fe algorhythmic
    +Te opportunistic
    -Te algorhythmic
    +Se cause/effect
    -Se holographic
    +Ne cause/effect
    -Ne holographic
    +Si opportunistic
    -Si algorhythmic
    +Ni opportunistic
    -Ni algorhythmic

    These, positivist and negativist, are very strict relations these 4 information styles. Further, they explain a lot about them.
    I like where you're going here (looking for connections to other dichotomies), but in this case it doesn't work. ILE has Cause-Effect cognition, and LII has Holographic, but both use -Ti (i.e., Ti blocked with Ne). Same problem with all the Mirror pairs. I haven't found any Reinin dichotomies which correlate with plus/minus, other than the quadra values.
    Quaero Veritas.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I like where you're going here (looking for connections to other dichotomies), but in this case it doesn't work. ILE has Cause-Effect cognition, and LII has Holographic, but both use -Ti (i.e., Ti blocked with Ne). Same problem with all the Mirror pairs. I haven't found any Reinin dichotomies which correlate with plus/minus, other than the quadra values.
    Thats creative. Each dominant function is unique onto its own, with no other type metabolizing information from the same dominant pattern. Each dominant function relates to each quadra value. Creative function itself has no command over the dominant process of judging or perceiving. There should be articles somewhere describing this. Creative relates to its own dichotmies, however. Further, one could not be -Se dominant w/ -Ti creative. In other words, creative is intimately linked to the dominant function, but not in the way you described.

    Also, dominant function relates to both HA and DS within the same quadra. The same function of the opposing type is going to react differently over prolonged periods of time. This all doesnt matter, however, because each set is unique onto its own.

    Direct relations of the creative are relational styles (victim:caretaker, etc), quadra values (Betaelta), and such.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I like where you're going here (looking for connections to other dichotomies), but in this case it doesn't work. ILE has Cause-Effect cognition, and LII has Holographic, but both use -Ti (i.e., Ti blocked with Ne). Same problem with all the Mirror pairs. I haven't found any Reinin dichotomies which correlate with plus/minus, other than the quadra values.
    Actually this isn't exactly right, +/- as originally discussed have to do with ring of social progress and the sign of the first function and not quadra values.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Functions-(-)
    Quote Originally Posted by plus/minus
    6. Findings

    The result of the following conclusions:
    In the process of identifying IMT (typing) can reveal signs of the functions on the basis of the properties that were originally described in B. V. Gulenko considering revisions B. D. Ermak (the "area of competence.")
    Sociotype "left" ring of social progress have the first function "minus" sign, and "right" ring of social progress- "plus" sign.


    Functions of one vertnosti(translation needed) throughout the model have the same sign.
    Properties signs "scale" and "quality" are observed in the groups TIMov united in a ring of social progress( VV Gulenko property "quality" attributes "Positivism / negativism").
    The concept of character has become an important addition to the Model A, clarifying the description of each model, TIM, gave an additional tool for distinguishing between Socionics processing the first (basic) functions in the related pairs, as well as the practical definition of IMT of the psyche in general.
    Of course there are other articles which uses a different way of using this terminology, so confusion is very prevalent on this topic.

    I tend to not use +/- very much because of this confusion and focus on rings of social progress(left/right AKA process/result) as the terminology for analysis. This is one of the fundamentally important dichotomy in socionics as it proposes the transformation of information as well as the reversibility(nominal) of this transformation.

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    mikesilb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I like where you're going here (looking for connections to other dichotomies), but in this case it doesn't work. ILE has Cause-Effect cognition, and LII has Holographic, but both use -Ti (i.e., Ti blocked with Ne). Same problem with all the Mirror pairs. I haven't found any Reinin dichotomies which correlate with plus/minus, other than the quadra values.
    Krig, I find what you just wrote highly interesting as I am very interested in the difference between the thought patterns of the two alpha NT types (and how that may also relate to the corresponding thought patterns in the alpha SF types). Could you explain a bit more about how LIIs have a holographic thinking style while ILEs utilize a more cause-effect style? Is this identical to what Gulenko states about this topic or is this something that you thought of (and if it is Gulenko's, I could re-read his articles to have a better sense about this)?

    Let me know your thoughts about this. Thanks!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    I think Gulenko said that, in the one quadra (e.g. Alpha) you have:
    Holographical-Panoramic INTj
    Causal-Deterministic ENTp
    Algorithmic ISFp; and
    Synergetic ESFj

    If we take the dominant function as the "primary concern" of the type (well, more so than the creative one) then we could still use Gulenko's thinking styles. Like, if I am INTj, then my "goal" is +Ti which is achieved via -Te and -Ne. That is, perhaps the creative function is more of a means than the function which regulates how the type thinks.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Haikus
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    Dang, maritsa has stepped up on the totem pole from nutcase to clusterf**

    'Grats, gurl

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