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Thread: Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti and personal boundaries

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    Default Te/Fi vs. Fe/Ti and personal boundaries

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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    If I'm e.g having a conversation with someone, watching a movie or whatever she often tries to join in. -.-'

    My mom also had a habit of drinking whatever alcoholic beverage anyone puts in the fridge if she happens to feel like it.
    Haha, no frigging way, your mum sounds like the mum of some guy I know. I got to know him through a friend of mine, we used to drink at his place, she did the same and still does I think. Once she stormed in and drank his booze and I heard "mum, stop that", it was 7 years ago, but I still laugh out loud when I recall that, plus she would ask that guy "what are you watching, what are you watching?" all the time.

    Funny thing is, it's the same guy after a few shots started arguing with my friend there is oxygen on the Moon and telling my chipped tooth is growing back, weird family. He has a younger brother whom I first saw and thought it is a monkey, it was even more hilarious when I learned friends call him monkey.

    Does anyone have any advice on how I could deal with these issues more effectively?
    Lock your door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Lock your door.
    I tried installing a latch to my door once but my parents found it disrespectful. I got into a lot of trouble for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Creepy-pikachu

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    Wrong dichotomy.

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    Maybe there is some tendency but I don't think it's very strong. It sounds like this is more an issue you have with your mom and not so much socionics related.

    Since you value Te/Fi yourself it could be that you naturally percieve their behaviour as less intruding. Or maybe as an Se polr you are very sensitive to intrusions generally. Just some speculations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I tried installing a latch to my door once but my parents found it disrespectful. I got into a lot of trouble for that.
    Well, you're going to have to lock it somehow for the time you're busy in some way/don't want intrusions. Tried telling her beforehand you're busy and do not want to be disturbed for some time?

    Your mum may be overprotective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    Maybe there is some tendency but I don't think it's very strong. It sounds like this is more an issue you have with your mom and not so much socionics related.
    Yep. When I lived with my parents, they used to enter in my room all the time without knocking, even when I was concentrating on homework or w/e. Usually the reason being "it's my house, I do what I want". Even though they are both Te-Fi.
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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yep. When I lived with my parents, they used to enter in my room all the time without knocking, even when I was concentrating on homework or w/e. Usually the reason being "it's my house, I do what I want". Even though they are both Te-Fi.
    Same here, although, doing homework is/has been an obligation. Don't think private stuff is and as it's called, it's private, that is, one doesn't want the other person to know for some time(?)

    There is a difference, but it's just me and I can be wrong...

    I mean, this way, you're signaling you're going to do the same to your kids, okay, but there are bounds.

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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I tried installing a latch to my door once but my parents found it disrespectful. I got into a lot of trouble for that.
    Wedge a shoe under the door to impede anyone trying to enter. It's an impermanent obstacle that can be excused as mere accident. When encountered it will create enough of a delay that you'll be prepared to receive a parental intruder.

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    yeah, Agarina, i am with @FDG on this... i really dont think what you are describing is type-related.
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    Why so pessimistic? The tone that you assume is very negativist; Fi is meant to adjust relations not open up threads and complain about what you see as inadequate when it comes to other human beings and especially to relationships.

    " since my mom is one of the worst and affects me the most "

    Fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    One thing I constantly find myself conflicting about with Fe/Ti people is the limits/rules for what sort of behaviours are socially appropriate.
    This is the voice of nature impelling you to find your own roost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I just wonder how I should communicate this to others (Fe people) since the strategies I've tried earlier haven't really produced any desirable results.
    You're not very good with relations Agarina, especially if you have to ask about this here.

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    This sounds more like introverted/extroverted problem to me (provided that it is type related). I would have exactly the same problems with her if she was my mother. I even see some parallels to the behavior of my IEI brother. But that's the point, we don't often annoy each other that much, because wer're both introverted. It's the same with my mother and father.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    You're not very good with relations Agarina, especially if you have to ask about this here.
    You don't even know what she already tried. Maybe it's not her fault, did you ever think of this? No, because your only goal is to refute her self-typing.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    yeah, Agarina, i am with @FDG on this... i really dont think what you are describing is type-related.
    Everything is type-related.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Why so pessimistic? The tone that you assume is very negativist; Fi is meant to adjust relations not open up threads and complain about what you see as inadequate when it comes to other human beings and especially to relationships.

    " since my mom is one of the worst and affects me the most "

    Fix it.
    Positivism & negativism aren't synonymes for optimism & pessimism in Socionics. As far as I'm concerned they're tendencies to see what is present vs. what is absent. A positivist can well be pessimistic and a negativist can be optimistic. I don't know how they work in Maritsionics, and, frankly, I don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    This is the voice of nature impelling you to find your own roost.
    Yeah, I'm working on it. The accommodation situation for students happens to be pretty bad so the wait is probably going to take a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I don't think so. Like I said, IME this problem is almost non-existent among Te/Fi people and very common with Fe valuers. ESEs maybe a little less so, but my sample of them is very small. We've also talked about this with Aqua and he'd spotted a similar trend. I remember him saying that he doesn't get why he should ask for a permission to e.g. borrow something if he believes he'd get the permission anyways or search through someone's drawers unless there was some situation-specific reason not to do it.
    There is almost always tension when a person lives with her parents after childhood, the territory, intrusions etc. Your problem is a global one. Parents are still getting used to the fact that their child has grown up and has her own personality and boundaries. Some parents never understand that. It's annoying but very human.

    I think Aqua seems ILE, but don't generalize his behaviour over the whole type or Fe/Ti valuers. I know many ILEs who are very polite, ask permission and respect boundaries. In his videos Aqua seems like the Se-creative subtype, that might also have something to do with it.

    I'm not saying that you're totally wrong though. The most intrusive type is EIE imo. It could be a personal thing though

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    I called you both pessimist and negativist. Two separate ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    You're not very good with relations Agarina, especially if you have to ask about this here.
    Neither are you. You have already proven your advice are terrific. Remember how you changed my typing, from gamma to alpha - even though you had CONFIRMED it and all, several times even. What a catastrophe if would've been if I had followed your relationship advice back then; I would've ended up with my superego or conflictor. I'm afraid I'd probably have killed myself by now, or worse, ended up an alcoholic single mom with no future. That's the kind of humanist you really are, Mariza. Think about it. Just think.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    There is almost always tension when a person lives with her parents after childhood, the territory, intrusions etc. Your problem is a global one. Parents are still getting used to the fact that their child has grown up and has her own personality and boundaries. Some parents never understand that. It's annoying but very human.

    I think Aqua seems ILE, but don't generalize his behaviour over the whole type or Fe/Ti valuers. I know many ILEs who are very polite, ask permission and respect boundaries. In his videos Aqua seems like the Se-creative subtype, that might also have something to do with it.

    I'm not saying that you're totally wrong though. The most intrusive type is EIE imo. It could be a personal thing though
    Yeah, well, I'm not saying every Fe/Ti acts like that or that any Fi&Te couldn't. I'm also not saying that sort of behaviour is bad or good per se, it's all a matter of how people feel about it. I can totally understand why someone like Aqua could think having to ask for a permission to borrow something relatively unimportant, for example, would be a waste of time/a sign of mistrust/nitpicking/whatever. This is not meant to be an attack towards non-Fi-valuers. It's merely a personal observation on how people from different quadras seem to often act/feel differently about boundaries and how this can cause misunderstandings and conflicts. I'm not generalizing anyone's behaviour over all Fe/Ti-people, I used Aqua&my mom as examples of something I've seen in a lot of people. This includes folks that aren't ILE or EIE. I'm sorry if I sounded overtly aggressive or something. I clearly need to put more effort into shaping my posts.

    I created this thread to get to hear other's experiences and ideas (- be they similar or contrary to mine) and thoughts/experiences on how these things can be dealt with. In the end I really don't care if the dichotomy we're talking about is merry vs serious or something else. It was just an assumption that made a lot of sense to me. In any case I'd rather not have this thread turn into a pointless Fe vs Fi rant.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Everything is type-related.
    a HUGE misconception about socionics. Could be why your typings are wacky. To understand socionics, first you need to get a better understanding of what socionics addresses. It's not something that is easily understood or explained.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Neither are you. You have already proven your advice are terrific. Remember how you changed my typing, from gamma to alpha - even though you had CONFIRMED it and all, several times even. What a catastrophe if would've been if I had followed your relationship advice back then; I would've ended up with my superego or conflictor. I'm afraid I'd probably have killed myself by now, or worse, ended up an alcoholic single mom with no future. That's the kind of humanist you really are, Mariza. Think about it. Just think.
    I'm a little doubtful you're delta as well, to be honest with you. I leave the possibility open, since we haven't interacted all that much so i dont know you too well. But with some doubt, especially in context with your intertype relations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    a HUGE misconception about socionics. Could be why your typings are wacky. To understand socionics, first you need to get a better understanding of what socionics addresses. It's not something that is easily understood or explained.
    By saying that something is not type-related you are saying that every type has the EXACT same possibility of having that trait/committing that action. Which in almost all cases is utter bullshit. Are you really saying that an EII, for example, has the exact same possibility to cross people's personal boundaries and act in socially inappropriate ways than, let's say, SLE? Sounds a little wacky, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I'm a little doubtful you're delta as well, to be honest with you. I leave the possibility open, since we haven't interacted all that much so i dont know you too well. But with some doubt, especially in context with your intertype relations.
    Which is?
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Yeah, well, I'm not saying every Fe/Ti acts like that or that any Fi&Te couldn't. I'm also not saying that sort of behaviour is bad or good per se, it's all a matter of how people feel about it. I can totally understand why someone like Aqua could think having to ask for a permission to borrow something relatively unimportant, for example, would be a waste of time/a sign of mistrust/nitpicking/whatever. This is not meant to be an attack towards non-Fi-valuers. It's merely a personal observation on how people from different quadras seem to often act/feel differently about boundaries and how this can cause misunderstandings and conflicts. I'm not generalizing anyone's behaviour over all Fe/Ti-people, I used Aqua&my mom as examples of something I've seen in a lot of people. This includes folks that aren't ILE or EIE. I'm sorry if I sounded overtly aggressive or something. I clearly need to put more effort into shaping my posts.
    Oh, you didn't sound aggressive at all I am always sceptical towards generalizations, weak . I just think peoples behaviour and circumstances maybe vary too much in this case.

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    That behavior goes against every description of Fe that I have encountered, as well as enneagram 3, most common type for EIEs.

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    Soooo much subjectivism going on in this thread.

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    Either this is not related or is related to something else..

    Because this is my problem with a lot of folks as well. The only people to properly respect this stuff is a few LII's and ESE I've met. Otherwise people are just impolite assholes. I can be impolite due to my weak ethics, but I've learned not to be as intrusive. The most intrusive individual I've known is a ILI guy and a SEE girl who I don't know that well.

    Some of this is learned as well, people don't naturally become polite overnight, but as people get older these patterns become more set. It could also be related rather then ethics/logic related.

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    I agree that it's probably Se related.

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    On another note, I think there is the possibility that Agarina is LII not EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Everything is type-related.
    ...except with parents.

    Honestly, I have never had this problem, except with parents. In most cases, they will always see you as their kid and never listen to you. I could bet that even if I were to become the most recognized expert in the world in subject X, my mother and father would still think my advice is nonsensical. What can you do! Makes life more varied...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ...except with parents.

    Honestly, I have never had this problem, except with parents. In most cases, they will always see you as their kid and never listen to you. I could bet that even if I were to become the most recognized expert in the world in subject X, my mother and father would still think my advice is nonsensical. What can you do! Makes life more varied...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    My mom also had a habit of drinking whatever alcoholic beverage anyone puts in the fridge if she happens to feel like it. It doesn't matter to her that that someone might have been saving the drinks for an event, for example, and since selling alcohol is forbidden between 9pm and 9am here it's not always possible to buy more of them early enough. She buys them back when she happens to feel like it, and that can be sometime next month just as well as the next day.
    I'm with your mom you asshole. It's a long topic but I'd just say that you don't understand the concept of public space. Everyone today knows that there is a document called Constitution ("Magna Carta") but very few know that there used to be a parallel document called "Charter of the Forest". It existed with the very specific purpose of limiting the extension of what is considered private property.

    Egoistical people don't seem to understand the concept that something doesn't belong to anyone in particular, so it's free for anyone to take it as they please. This is exactly what happens with the contents of the fridge when you live in a family. It's absurd that you expect people to wonder whom's that piece of cake or that soda. If it's in the fridge you can take it unless you've been told to keep something for a special purpose. They have no right to reproach you for taking it if they don't.

    But most important thing of all is that you buy stuff to share it with your people and leave it in the fridge for them to take. It's not normal that you put stuff in the fridge only when it's four yourself. This parents understand well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I'm with your mom you asshole. It's a long topic but I'd just say that you don't understand the concept of public space. Everyone today knows that there is a document called Constitution ("Magna Carta") but very few know that there used to be a parallel document called "Charter of the Forest". It existed with the very specific purpose of limiting the extension of what is considered private property.

    Egoistical people don't seem to understand the concept that something doesn't belong to anyone in particular, so it's free for anyone to take it as they please. This is exactly what happens with the contents of the fridge when you live in a family. It's absurd that you expect people to wonder whom's that piece of cake or that soda. If it's in the fridge you can take it unless you've been told to keep something for a special purpose. They have no right to reproach you for taking it if they don't.

    But most important thing of all is that you buy stuff to share it with your people and leave it in the fridge for them to take. It's not normal that you put stuff in the fridge only when it's four yourself. This parents understand well.

    Learn to live in a group or live alone in a cave.
    lol, wow. when you live with people theres an understanding of public property but there's also basic human respect and understanding that people like having their own space and stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Yeah, well, I'm not saying every Fe/Ti acts like that or that any Fi&Te couldn't. I'm also not saying that sort of behaviour is bad or good per se, it's all a matter of how people feel about it. I can totally understand why someone like Aqua could think having to ask for a permission to borrow something relatively unimportant, for example, would be a waste of time/a sign of mistrust/nitpicking/whatever. This is not meant to be an attack towards non-Fi-valuers. It's merely a personal observation on how people from different quadras seem to often act/feel differently about boundaries and how this can cause misunderstandings and conflicts. I'm not generalizing anyone's behaviour over all Fe/Ti-people, I used Aqua&my mom as examples of something I've seen in a lot of people. This includes folks that aren't ILE or EIE. I'm sorry if I sounded overtly aggressive or something. I clearly need to put more effort into shaping my posts.

    I created this thread to get to hear other's experiences and ideas (- be they similar or contrary to mine) and thoughts/experiences on how these things can be dealt with. In the end I really don't care if the dichotomy we're talking about is merry vs serious or something else. It was just an assumption that made a lot of sense to me. In any case I'd rather not have this thread turn into a pointless Fe vs Fi rant.
    I haven't noticed anything of the kind tbh so I'm with the NTR crowd. A couple of suggestions concerning this problem: parents are generally poor at observing boundaries of their children; Aqua may have less regard for personal boundaries being sx/so, sx/sp's seems to erect more boundaries and have a greater need for privacy (is your mom so/sx by any chance?); you're not communicating the extent of your boundaries in a way that Fe/Ti-valuers can easily pick up on and your requests are getting lost in translation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I'm with your mom you asshole. It's a long topic but I'd just say that you don't understand the concept of public space. Everyone today knows that there is a document called Constitution ("Magna Carta") but very few know that there used to be a parallel document called "Charter of the Forest". It existed with the very specific purpose of limiting the extension of what is considered private property.

    Egoistical people don't seem to understand the concept that something doesn't belong to anyone in particular, so it's free for anyone to take it as they please. This is exactly what happens with the contents of the fridge when you live in a family. It's absurd that you expect people to wonder whom's that piece of cake or that soda. If it's in the fridge you can take it unless you've been told to keep something for a special purpose. They have no right to reproach you for taking it if they don't.

    But most important thing of all is that you buy stuff to share it with your people and leave it in the fridge for them to take. It's not normal that you put stuff in the fridge only when it's four yourself. This parents understand well.

    Learn to live in a group or live alone in a cave.
    Lol. I don't live in Mexico. In this part of the world taking something that belongs to someone else is called stealing, and it's defined as a crime by law. If you don't like the idea then I advice you to stay where you are, but don't try to force your own ideals down my throat. It's certainly not up to you to decide what sort of things are or aren't acceptable in my family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Lol. I don't live in Mexico. In this part of the world taking something that belongs to someone else is called stealing, and it's defined as a crime by law. If you don't like the idea then I advice you to stay where you are, but don't try to force your own ideals down my throat. It's certainly not up to you to decide what sort of things are or aren't acceptable in my family.
    Do it, make my day. Call the police and tell them your mom stole one of your beverages from the fridge.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    If Mike is right about anything, it's that one should probably be more definite about who shares what with whom.

    Absurd: You Ti dominants sure say things I don't really know where to put.
    labtard: fml
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    A couple of suggestions concerning this problem: parents are generally poor at observing boundaries of their children; Aqua may have less regard for personal boundaries being sx/so
    These may both well be true, though there are still lots of other people in my circles who don't care much about boundaries, and who almost all happen to be Fe/Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    sx/sp's seems to erect more boundaries and have a greater need for privacy (is your mom so/sx by any chance?);
    She is, actually. And it happens to be that the person that most disturbs me with this sort of behaviour outside of my family is also so/sx (and ti/fe, for that matter). Interesting. I didn't even think of the stackings, but maybe there's something to it. I can think of a few people that are fi/te & so/sx, but I don't find them intrusive at all. Maybe it's the combination of Fe and so/sx itself that annoys me, or I'm just better at communicating my expectations to Fi/Te folks so with them the problem gets fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    you're not communicating the extent of your boundaries in a way that Fe/Ti-valuers can easily pick up on and your requests are getting lost in translation.
    Yeah, that's what I thought would be (at least a part of) the problem. Any suggestions on how to get better at it?
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Do it, make my day. Call the police and tell them your mom stole one of your beverages from the fridge.
    There are probably more productive ways than that, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by HandiAce View Post
    If Mike is right about anything, it's that one should probably be more definite about who shares what with whom.
    Who said I haven't been definite? The general rule in this house is that people buy their own food, the fridge is collective, and other's stuff is not to be touched unless you get a permission. Very simple. I've also asked my mom never to drink my drinks even with the intention to buy them back later before asking me first, because alcohol is not sold here after 9pm and I might be (and usually am) saving it for the night.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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