Connecticut shooting, gun control
Voice your opinions...
Preliminary reports that a sig sauer assault rifle was used... so it's likely another ban will be up for even more serious discussion due to the 3 shooting this year involving these weapons....
I wouldn't be very surprised if the ban comes in 2013.
Yea... kindergarten class...
Troll smarter...
Anyways, with sufficient training and suprise, even people trained to shoot back will be mowed down quite easily.
Doubt it. Also he was in a bullet proof vest.
He might drop down in pain but people can have a good deal of pain tolerance and can be fairly stout. Anyways, generally untrained individuals have a hard time doing much of anything when bullets are flying around, even people who know how to shoot. Even going to a paintball field, you will find people generally find cover, and that's just to hide from paint balls. Human instinct needs to be overcome thru training in order to respond to this sort of situation. So it would require teachers to be trained and to have them be in the right place at the right time. That's not exactly feasible either. Given this individual only killed 6 adults, it's entirely possible none of them would have guns as well.Originally Posted by Ashton
Wut?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_fire_exercise
One big training part of live fire exercise is not the bullets coming at you, it's the noise. Anyways, with surprise, even individuals with guns may have no time to react. I seriously doubt one teacher with a 9mm will be able to take this guy down unless the teacher got lucky or is well-trained.
9 out of 10 times, I would expect a individual with a bullet proof vest and a assault rifle to steam roll any individual with a hand gun.
Maybe banning guns would help, maybe not. But there are people I know who I am glad have guns and I feel safe(r) around them. Granted, they also have other qualities and skills that make them reliable and good citizens/people.
Also,
Violence starts in people's minds and hearts. I don't think there's any one simple solution (other than invasive totalitarian control, a la TSA...).
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
LMAO americans.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I would say banning guns wouldn't help any specific instance, but may reduce frequency. These shooters tend to attack areas of weakness where they will be able to do what they intend without resistance so it's unlikely there to be individuals who can stop them.
It's really hard to stop an assault weapon carrying and vested individual with a handgun, regardless of how skilled or capable. Also most individuals are simply incapable of responding in this sort of situation, even well trained individuals.
You kinda of proved the point.
An individual with a assault rifle and vest has a huge firepower advantage against almost anyone with a handgun. I think most cops are just going to hide behind a barrier much like any teacher with a gun. So your original point of a couple of teachers with guns is fallacious and only infrequently would any defensive individual be capable of preventing the situation.
I doubt it, the moment this individual entered the classroom, and killed his mother, the body count was going to be in the double digits.
Most individuals can't deal with paintball situations much less live fire situations unless one is acclimated and somewhat expecting it, ala combat zone.
Well this guys was going to kill his mother... so it was kinda of a personal thing...
Schools aren't really gun free zones, my high school had two police officers on staff full time.
I can't help but think that people who want to shoot others will be able to get ahold of a gun somehow and I would rather have one too. I guess for me its more interesting to try to figure out why these shootings are happening... what is the psychology behind them and why can't we catch them sooner.
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
You've been doing a good job of making yourself unappealing lately.
Yes, which is one reason why I think this is a multi-faceted problem without any one clean solution. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure it out and make changes where we can, of course.
My father has a slightly racist view of it all - he notes that in the vast majority of incidences like this, it's a young white male. He thinks it's because they see guns as toys to get them attention. In contrast (according to him), young black men--who are stereotypically linked to crime and violence--don't do things like this because the are used to dealing with guns as tools.
...in case anyone's looking for yet another perspective on things...
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Generally people who commit these sort of acts aren't going to worry about a rent-a-cop or a cop on the locale, much less an armed teacher.
They have probably rehearsed what they are going to do a lot in their head before doing it, they are prepared if a cop comes up and etc.
The aurora shooter and the shooter in the mall both had their assault rifle jam. This shooting the assault rifle did not jam. So this will be a significant point in the gun control debate.
It's very likely in my mind next year or 2014 some sort of assault weapon ban will make it thru congress which will prohibit the distribution of assault weapons and large capacity magazines.
American gun ownership is still the highest. The laws generally don't cover existing firearms.
IMO, gun violence is more likely to be associated with gun ownership then gun laws. I don't think laws have much effect except to reduce increase in gun ownership.
I don't think banning specific weapons is going to magic stop these types of scenarios occurring, the difficulties are deeper wound in society, idk what happened but i imagine the person murdering innocent people was a victim him/herself. The whole thing makes me very sad on a larger scale, humanity lets down humanity.
I'm not sure if i will need to explain further or if people will 'get it' but i see similarities between these (as in thread title) and these...
http://www.msf.org/msf/articles/2012...ct-in-kivu.cfm
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
It's like I just expressed a little bit ago on Facebook -- guns are not the issue, people are. People who want to kill will find a way to kill. Take note of similar news. So what if we ban guns -- will we eventually have to ban butter knives and spoons because people are beginning to kill others with those?
You mean because it's Batman premier...
The guy was prepared for a firefight with the swat team, no he did not pick a gun free zone because of the lack of resistance.
If you put on a bullet proof vest/swat uniform, you expect eventual resistance. Even in gun-free-zones people can still carry. I know my friend carries his pistol to all sorts of gun-free-zone/restaurants which aren't supposed to have guns within 1000 feet.
Almost every restaurant/bar/shopping area in the US is a gun-free-zone... yet guns are everywhere. The gun culture in America basically makes a gun very much a possibility even in the majority of gun free zones. Trust me, I go to the theatre in Atlanta, a lot of individuals are packing heat... ^_^
The thing is that even individuals that are packing heat, isn't going to take on someone in body armor and a assault rifle. The first instinct is to run.
Well that man only wounded 20 kids not killed 20 kids...
Also almost all the multi-individual knife attacks in China are against small children because knifing 20 adults is fairly difficult to accomplish.
A gun is a extremely efficient killing mechanism for multiple individuals, adult or otherwise. Range/ease of use etc, I quite like them.
Maybe he didn't want to actually kill. If he wanted to kill, I'm sure he could have. He had access to the kids long enough to wound them, I'm sure if he wanted to kill he could have aimed for the throat, slit a little harder, and killed them.
Kids in the class need to be taught SWAT team kinda stuff. Throwing books (as a weapon, as moving cover, as a distraction, and as a general deterrent all at once), knocking desks over to be used as makeshift cover, just all-out bumrushing the bastard, etc.; in the end, there's twenty or so students and one gunman and those twenty need to viscerally know that they aren't totally helpless, that a gun must be aimed and shot by a mortal human being and it ain't a free pass to be superman or nothing...
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
People are just generally shit with knives... also he was likely using something like a kitchen knife or a vegetable cleaver, not something like a k-bar or a knife made for killing.
First you need to be trained to not run and hide when the first shot goes off. It's probably easier to teach kids to do it then adults tho...
*sarcasm Maybe we just need all kids to be Sudanese child soldiers, who are brought up on rape and systematic violence...
When has someone with a concealed carry permit EVER stopped something like this?
Most people can't act when they are shocked and mentally unprepared.
I'm not taking a position one way or another, but the concealed carry spiel when a mass shooting happens always makes my eyes roll. I would love to say one example of a gun carrying hero saving the day.
Now if Herzog had been there...
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
Switzerland is low on that list, with a high rate gun-ownership: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland
Like Minde suggested, there are multiple factors in gun-deaths, and the number of guns is not the only (nor imo the most important) factor
come back when you have a real response.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
I can't even find it if I search for it though. That's the thing.
It's easy to sit back and say "blah blah it's not true that people are incapable of action when faced with danger," but I would like to see what you would do it someone came into a store you were shopping at and started shooting the place up.
I've been in a similar situation twice and I had to forcibly remove myself from the situation the second time and I couldn't get my brain together to do it for two days. I'm no sissy girl, but I felt absolutely paralyzed. People can react in these situations if they have a fuck of a lot of training. For an average person? Eh.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
Switzerland is also quite different as almost all males know how to handle guns and have military training.
A multitude of factors are involved in gun death which is obvious, however, per location there will generally be a most important factor. In a warzone, it might be war, etc etc etc...
It's impossible to generalize these things across all regions which is why nations/states/municipalities often have their own rules and regulations concerning arms.
In the US, it's hard to say what is the most important factor. However I think due to the crimes, much of the public and legislature will be motivated to pursue some sort of assault weapons ban.
A lot of people heard the gunshot from around the school and called the police, how many of those individuals had guns and went to help. I don't think concealed weapons are a huge deterrence. Given how many concealed weapons I know are at movie theatres across the nation, I don't think that's a deterrent either.
People are just generally too chickenshit to use their gun imo.
Also Gabby Giffords was protected by multiple body guards and still was shot.
Someone in the thread about the summer movie theatre shooting said something to the effect of: "Basically, in terms of gun control, America is FUBAR." I agree with that person, whoever it was. There are now too many guns out there, with too many feeling entitled to owning these weapons... I actually felt numb to the last shooting, but this one did break through my jaded misanthropy because it's a fucking elementary school. The kids that aren't dead are now horribly traumatized. The parents and teachers must be going halfway insane. What a nightmare our race has fashioned.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
I think most people have never been in a fake gunfight with paintballs and airsoft weapons much less a real gunfight or major traumatic situation.
Even trained individuals will often choose to find cover against an assault weapon and say in a movie theater when people are in a panic, it's almost impossible to get a clear shot on the gunman while the gunman doesn't care who he hits. An opportunity to respond only arises once enough people have cleared and died that it becomes possible for a response, which means already there will be a fairly large casualty count.
It generally takes a lot of individuals to take down even a lone gunman, and often the gunman will be able to get some shots off, ala Gabby Giffords, etc...
That's an interesting list. But it depends what countries you want to compare yourselves. To me the rate for USA sound very high considering that most countries with higher rates than the US are third world countries or countries in the former USSR. Countries like the UK, France, Germany, Denmark are way lower on the list.
What kind of situation was this btw. I'm pretty good in some traumatic situations and bad in others... but I've had some experience which probably made me more adept. Still I'm no hero, and it would still require a lot of opportunity to go against someone with a lot more firepower.
Shoot him in the gun hand or the legs or the face.
Or forget the whole gun idea. Sure-make guns illegal. And pass out hand grenades to protect children from people who have guns illegally.
Most people wish they could make a headshot under fire.. but I doubt many could.
This debate repeats over and over and always with the same stupid arguments on both sides.
First of all, indeed, gun ownership increases the risk of major violence. Guns are weapons after all and are among the most sophisticated we know today. But guns still don't fire themselves, though, so the true origin of violence lies somewhere else.
Politicians are very good at sidetracking issues. They don't want to deal with them on a very deep level. Likely because they don't really care but even if if they do, they probably still don't understand them. So they like to present things that seem like relevant to the issue but that are unlikely to change things by much, if at all. And one of such things is gun ownership laws.
Why someone takes a gun and starts a killing spree escapes my mind. Surely, every incident has different motivations. But one thing that is common is that such incidents are typical in the US. It could be that there are many more guns in the US than any other place or it could be something else. And like I said, since weapons still don't fire themselves, then the problem is other than the quantity of guns.
I don't know many details about the culture over there but I surely know a few important facts. And one of them is that families are far less important there than in other parts of the world. I still can't understand the obsession of youth over there to leave their parent's home early. Or maybe is it the urge of the parents to get rid of their children as fast as possible? Otherwise you can't explain the colonies of retired in other places.
Here in Mexico students go to the university and usually still sleep in their parents house. They are in constant contact with their family. You see, in your family there is an specific reason to treat you well (at least in theory): you're sharing a blood link. But in the US it's very commonto send them to student-only dormitories. This is relevant because, from what I've observed, when you throw a bunch of people of about the same age but who have nothing in common in a place and force them to be together, problems are likely to arise. Such places do not have hard rules in reality and when you allow people to live in anarchy and make their own, they usually end up with some nasty ones product of raw force and competition. Think about it. We know socionics. If you don't filter people by types, in any large group there are big chances that you're always surrounded by people who rubs you the wrong way. But since they are strangers they have absolutely no reason to be polite toward you. So conflicts get ugly.
Being honest, I've seriously considered about killing someone who keeps rubbing me the wrong way at several points in my life. And I'm pretty sure that lots of people would say the same. But since I'm not a psychopath, I've never got past the idea. It's just a matter of finding someone with weaker inhibitions to turn such ideas into a real disaster.
But let's be concise here: shootings aren't but the tip of the iceberg. Violence starts much earlier and is far more widespread that we're used to admit. It's not a coincidence that such things happen in places I described above: school, work, etc.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Everyone should learn socionics. That would solve evurything.
Mexico doesn't have a lot of gun violence outside the drug shit, but mikes prices made me wanna shoot someone.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
This might be true for general gun violence, but I don't see that factor into the mass shootings. Those were mostly screwed-up white Americans shooting in largely white American settings.
I honestly don't get the resistance to banning assault weapons. It baffles me. I would much rather be in a setting where the killer comes in with a knife or a handgun, thank you very much. Seriously, which civilian needs an assault weapon?
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Violent people will result to other violent means. Gun control is not the solution. Guns are just an easier way of dealing with their violence.
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Personally, I think if I went psycho, guns would be a horrible way of being violent. Push button-loud noise-someone falls over wouldn't be as satisfactory as, say, knifing small animals.
(Maybe this is the wrong time to say something like that...but I'm pretty sure it's not the wrong place.)
Last edited by DirectorAbbie; 12-15-2012 at 03:54 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
