Connecticut shooting, gun control

[Gilly]

This quote doesn't really have anything to do with civic duty. I don't really see much revolution happening today. Mostly just complaining. Also a revolution is in it's nature a act of civic duty, to sacrifice one's life in the battle for freedom.

You take too much for granted.

In what fashion will any noble sacrifice proceed if we can't even put up a fight?

Seriously, I just don't see how you can trust society/collective organization so much that you think you can just give other people a taste of ultimate power and expect to go on generation after generation with nobody ever overstepping their bounds...it just seems so incredibly naive. All it takes is one charismatic, ill-intending leader to make send things down the wrong path; see ******.

Anyways, the assault weapon ban is imo the fault of the gun nuts, they essentially shot themselves in the foot by letting lunatics and such have easy access to these high powered weapons. Now the political trend will be to reinstate the ban. I doubt I will ever have trouble getting access to guns in the US, and the slippery slope fallacies that get throw about are shrill and borderline hysterics.

No, the assault weapon ban rests on the shoulders of frightened suburban moms and their PTA meetings who think sweeping the problem under the rug will make it go away. The problem is our laws, and the reasons people wind up wanting/needing guns. The problem is with PEOPLE, not guns. It's like airport security: the people who are really committed and want to make something happen, will figure out a way no matter what lengths we go to. You know how you can ask for the can of soda? Or bring your own onboard, purchased from convenience after the checkout? A ripped open coke can is a lot sharper than a box cutter. All it takes is one rip, a couple of folds, and a piece of cardboard; wham, instant knife. Sharper than most kitchen knives, and way more menacing once it has blood on it. As a matter of fact, a ceramic kitchen knife can be made VERY sharp, without metal, and hidden on one's person. You could break a cell phone screen: piece of glass, cardboard - knife. Ever take apart a cell phone or computer? Any range of small sharp objects could be stashed inside a properly doctored electronic device, and be made to look like internal components. A plastic knife or shiv could easily make its way through security in a crowded purse.

This is just me sitting here thinking stuff up. Imagine the lengths people will go when they really want something, and you will see just how futile bans on things in such high demand, like alcohol, marijuana, firearms, etc. really are.

[Creepy-male]

This quote doesn't really have anything to do with civic duty. I don't really see much revolution happening today. Mostly just complaining. Also a revolution is in it's nature a act of civic duty, to sacrifice one's life in the battle for freedom.

In what fashion will any noble sacrifice proceed if we can't even put up a fight?

"It is the cause, not the death that makes the martyr."

-Bonaparte, Napoleon

There is a difference between glorifying the death of people in the struggle for freedom posthumously and actually undertaking intelligent actions to improve one's position with respect to freedom in society. Sometimes actions of fanatics have the effect of working against a particular cause such as more freedom and autonomy. Likewise in any real battle or struggle, focusing on any idealization of defeat or victimization actually works against successfully achieving a goal or cause. This is what I think Napoleon means -- its not the death that makes the martyr but the fact that they had died in pursuit of a cause and actively working towards it. It's that cause that is important and not the individual or there death. Further as a strategist I'm sure Napoleon saw the value of keeping people alive, rather than brashly allowing people to die for some cause so that people would make them matyrs and sentimentalize his struggle.

Eitherway regardless of what napoleon had to say about deaths and causes, I'd also remind you that napoleon arose as a military leader and absolute head of state from the ashes of the french revolution, as did Mao, ******, Stalin, and several other entities. Medieval Kings even arose primarily as Barbarian Cheiftans which acquired power in the slow demise of the western roman empire which underwent a revolution which involved the rise of the roman catholic papalcy and the fracturing of power away from the roman empire into separate entities in Italy. Anyways the important trend is when someone looses power there is always a vulture nearby waiting to pick at the scraps, and probably convinced that they deserve to be in charge. All the more reason to weigh both the cost of the deaths of your allies as well as the cost of the deaths of your enemies.

My point is that the current struggle for civic freedom shouldn't involve highly romanticized heroic attempts to go to some war-like revolution against the government. Much of the problems I perceive personally are concerned with the illusion and manipulation inherent in the mass media and marketing as well as an overwhelming status anxiety which places the focus on unhealthy extremities in competitiveness, neuroticism, and a disproportionate focus on the self/individual/narcissism that isn't properly balance with a realistic focus on others. The trend is to virtualize the commodity for connection to other people and sell it rather than directly experience it. The construction of such a system is what I really think enslaves people from a higher form of freedom. I think the government plays an equal hand, mainly in maintaining order and stability to allow the process to continue. The process itself involves those capable of controlling the commodity and those incapable of controlling the commodity. Those capable of controlling the commodity tend to raise enough wealth and power in order to purchase more of that commodity and feel ironically more valued. The problem is though that as those rise to the top they feel less satisfied in some ways. They are surrounded by status anxiety conscious go getter vultures ready to do whatever it takes to replace them and may even feel the process of making things a commodity or virtualized takes away the satisfaction in things. Ironically these people are the architects of their own prison.

[munenori2]

End the war on drugs (another attempt to ban something) and you will see gun-related homicides in America decline. End entitlement spending and public schooling too while we are at it. Do you want to see an even bigger black market for guns, so gangs with guns can kill each other over guns? The motives come first, guns are the tool.

Oh, and the reason the 21st century citizenry needs to have access to automatic weapons is the same reason why the 18th century citizens needed access to muskets. When the police state military-industrial complex bangs out some lasers, pain rays, and drones your hunting rifles and handguns are going to do exactly fuck. Think of the future when you make policies now. I'm not actually a conspiracy nut, but slippery-slopes will aggregate at some point on the horizon. Don't sell future generations off because you were too busy getting caught up in your page rank hive-mind to actually peak at some context.

Archon, it's weird how you remind me of this guy I used to work with, only you're the anarcholibertarian version and he's the socialist one.

[mu4]

You take too much for granted.

In what fashion will any noble sacrifice proceed if we can't even put up a fight?

Seriously, I just don't see how you can trust society/collective organization so much that you think you can just give other people a taste of ultimate power and expect to go on generation after generation with nobody ever overstepping their bounds...it just seems so incredibly naive. All it takes is one charismatic, ill-intending leader to make send things down the wrong path; see ******.

I don't care about gun control, so I expect plenty of arms in society. Anyways, if I wanted a arsenal I can get a arsenal. I could probably get full auto military grade weapons if I tried hard enough and was willing to risk the jail time. It's all a matter of capital and will. I don't trust society since I'm willing to you know break the law and do civil disobedience if I need to. The people who need all their needs to be legal are the ones who are slaves to society.

No, the assault weapon ban rests on the shoulders of frightened suburban moms and their PTA meetings who think sweeping the problem under the rug will make it go away. The problem is our laws, and the reasons people wind up wanting/needing guns. The problem is with PEOPLE, not guns. It's like airport security: the people who are really committed and want to make something happen, will figure out a way no matter what lengths we go to. You know how you can ask for the can of soda? Or bring your own onboard, purchased from convenience after the checkout? A ripped open coke can is a lot sharper than a box cutter. All it takes is one rip, a couple of folds, and a piece of cardboard; wham, instant knife. Sharper than most kitchen knives, and way more menacing once it has blood on it. As a matter of fact, a ceramic kitchen knife can be made VERY sharp, without metal, and hidden on one's person. You could break a cell phone screen: piece of glass, cardboard - knife. Ever take apart a cell phone or computer? Any range of small sharp objects could be stashed inside a properly doctored electronic device, and be made to look like internal components. A plastic knife or shiv could easily make its way through security in a crowded purse.

This is just me sitting here thinking stuff up. Imagine the lengths people will go when they really want something, and you will see just how futile bans on things in such high demand, like alcohol, marijuana, firearms, etc. really are.

Given how deadly you can be with hand made weaponary and IEDs as has been show in various insurgencies around the world. A revolution is fundamentally about people and not about guns. If you want to fight back, you can fight back. I don't care about the assault weapon's ban since I can get these weapons and items at any given time regardless of the ban.

I don't care if a special forces soldier can take out a school with a penknife but I don't want some skill-less asshole being able to take out a classroom of six year olds with a assault rifle. I'm not sure if people here really know how much firepower difference a military grade rifle is vs a handgun or a penknife.

Given that I am born in Beijing and people I know have disappeared or been suppressed in my life, you pay a price for rebellion. Without that price, it might as well be disney world. American wants to buy their rebellion from Mcdonalds, well they don't sell that there..

[munenori2]

BUT WHAT IF I NEED A GUN IN FIVE MINUTES TO FIGHT CRIME?!

[Creepy-pikachu]

If gun restrictions aren't going to stop criminals from getting their hands on them, surely gun restrictions won't stop virtuous freedom-defending people from getting their hands on them either?

How very polarizing of you.

[Gilly]

I don't care about gun control, so I expect plenty of arms in society. Anyways, if I wanted a arsenal I can get a arsenal. I could probably get full auto military grade weapons if I tried hard enough and was willing to risk the jail time. It's all a matter of capital and will. I don't trust society since I'm willing to you know break the law and do civil disobedience if I need to. The people who need all their needs to be legal are the ones who are slaves to society.

Don't you see, though, that you are the anarchist here? The criminal? Do you really not believe in the idea that the law can improve and come closer to representing a truly civilized code of behavior? Because that's what it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be the rules your parents give you that you thwart out of juvenile spite for your feelings of being suppressed. I break the law when I feel that it is at fault for the violation of my freedoms, not because it's convenient or inevitable. That's not what "real rebellion" is, either. Real rebellion is knowing what needs to be changed, and what can be changed, and pushing on the parts of society that are dragging behind the rest. Rebellion has and always will only ever occur when people feel like there is a better option than the one they are living under, whether that be a new law, a new party, a new regime, or entirely new political system.

As far as getting guns illegally once shit has already started going down goes, well, you have fun with that.

I want the law to change because I believe the law can do what it's supposed to, assuming it is written and enforced conscientiously (this second part is a bit of an uphill battle, obviously, but it can be done better than it is now).

Given how deadly you can be with hand made weaponary and IEDs as has been show in various insurgencies around the world. A revolution is fundamentally about people and not about guns. If you want to fight back, you can fight back. I don't care about the assault weapon's ban since I can get these weapons and items at any given time regardless of the ban.

I don't care if a special forces soldier can take out a school with a penknife but I don't want some skill-less asshole being able to take out a classroom of six year olds with a assault rifle. I'm not sure if people here really know how much firepower difference a military grade rifle is vs a handgun or a penknife.

Again, if the guy wanted to kill 20 kids, he was gonna kill 20 kids.

The difference between you and me is, you see assault rifles and think "How many fewer kids will be killed if they are banned?" while I, "How much better odds will our freedom have if a few more people are packing for the inevitable breakdown?"

Given that I am born in Beijing and people I know have disappeared or been suppressed in my life, you pay a price for rebellion. Without that price, it might as well be disney world. American wants to buy their rebellion from Mcdonalds, well they don't sell that there..

Quit dragging your cultural "credentials" around like they make you any more sincere about rebelling against anything.

[Gilly]

"It is the cause, not the death that makes the martyr."

-Bonaparte, Napoleon

There is a difference between glorifying the death of people in the struggle for freedom posthumously and actually undertaking intelligent actions to improve one's position with respect to freedom in society. Sometimes actions of fanatics have the effect of working against a particular cause such as more freedom and autonomy. Likewise in any real battle or struggle, focusing on any idealization of defeat or victimization actually works against successfully achieving a goal or cause. This is what I think Napoleon means -- its not the death that makes the martyr but the fact that they had died in pursuit of a cause and actively working towards it. It's that cause that is important and not the individual or there death. Further as a strategist I'm sure Napoleon saw the value of keeping people alive, rather than brashly allowing people to die for some cause so that people would make them matyrs and sentimentalize his struggle.

Eitherway regardless of what napoleon had to say about deaths and causes, I'd also remind you that napoleon arose as a military leader and absolute head of state from the ashes of the french revolution, as did Mao, ******, Stalin, and several other entities. Medieval Kings even arose primarily as Barbarian Cheiftans which acquired power in the slow demise of the western roman empire which underwent a revolution which involved the rise of the roman catholic papalcy and the fracturing of power away from the roman empire into separate entities in Italy. Anyways the important trend is when someone looses power there is always a vulture nearby waiting to pick at the scraps, and probably convinced that they deserve to be in charge. All the more reason to weigh both the cost of the deaths of your allies as well as the cost of the deaths of your enemies.

My point is that the current struggle for civic freedom shouldn't involve highly romanticized heroic attempts to go to some war-like revolution against the government. Much of the problems I perceive personally are concerned with the illusion and manipulation inherent in the mass media and marketing as well as an overwhelming status anxiety which places the focus on unhealthy extremities in competitiveness, neuroticism, and a disproportionate focus on the self/individual/narcissism that isn't properly balance with a realistic focus on others. The trend is to virtualize the commodity for connection to other people and sell it rather than directly experience it. The construction of such a system is what I really think enslaves people from a higher form of freedom. I think the government plays an equal hand, mainly in maintaining order and stability to allow the process to continue. The process itself involves those capable of controlling the commodity and those incapable of controlling the commodity. Those capable of controlling the commodity tend to raise enough wealth and power in order to purchase more of that commodity and feel ironically more valued. The problem is though that as those rise to the top they feel less satisfied in some ways. They are surrounded by status anxiety conscious go getter vultures ready to do whatever it takes to replace them and may even feel the process of making things a commodity or virtualized takes away the satisfaction in things. Ironically these people are the architects of their own prison.

Believe me, I do not want to go to war with the government. I have no desire to face down trained soldiers with better weapons and more training. I'm not a fucking retard.

I do think that the threat of citizens having automatic weapons is a good motivator for politicians to perform well.

[Gilly]

If gun restrictions aren't going to stop criminals from getting their hands on them, surely gun restrictions won't stop virtuous freedom-defending people from getting their hands on them either?

Well, if criminals are people who are involved in breaking the law, they probably have better access to illegal guns than people who aren't normally involved in breaking the law.

[mu4]

Don't you see, though, that you are the anarchist here? The criminal? Do you really not believe in the idea that the law can improve and come closer to representing a truly civilized code of behavior? Because that's what it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be the rules your parents give you that you thwart out of juvenile spite for your feelings of being suppressed. I break the law when I feel that it is at fault for the violation of my freedoms, not because it's convenient or inevitable. That's not what "real rebellion" is, either. Real rebellion is knowing what needs to be changed, and what can be changed, and pushing on the parts of society that are dragging behind the rest. Rebellion has and always will only ever occur when people feel like there is a better option than the one they are living under, whether that be a new law, a new party, a new regime, or entirely new political system.

As far as getting guns illegally once shit has already started going down goes, well, you have fun with that.

I've always been kinda of anarchist. ^_^

I want the law to change because I believe the law can do what it's supposed to, assuming it is written and enforced conscientiously (this second part is a bit of an uphill battle, obviously, but it can be done better than it is now).

Again, if the guy wanted to kill 20 kids, he was gonna kill 20 kids.

The difference between you and me is, you see assault rifles and think "How many fewer kids will be killed if they are banned?" while I, "How much better odds will our freedom have if a few more people are packing for the inevitable breakdown?"

Quit dragging your cultural "credentials" around like they make you any more sincere about rebelling against anything.

You think Che or Zhou Enlai packed for the inevitable breakdown? Che studied to be a doctor, to heal people and Zhou Enlai studied to be a official. Being a rebel when the world isn't ready for it is just a stupid sacrifice or petty vanity.

You don't even understand rebellion, and what it entails and who are the rebels. Frankly, I rather not be a rebel. I want a fat happy life where I'm loved, get to learn a lot of stuff and pass it on to some folks and generally be left alone. Generally people don't pick being a rebel, you just get caught up in the whole bloody business.

Anyways, you don't even know my position, since I'm not for assault rifle ban. Prohibition is likely going to happen due to these events. I just don't want assault weapons as easy to buy as computer parts.

[Gilly]

I've always been kinda of anarchist. ^_^

Ok...

You think Che or Zhou Enlai packed for the inevitable breakdown? Che studied to be a doctor, to heal people and Zhou Enlai studied to be a official. Being a rebel when the world isn't ready for it is just a stupid sacrifice or petty vanity.

Or it's the difference between defeat and victory.

You don't even understand rebellion, and what it entails and who are the rebels. Frankly, I rather not be a rebel.

Nor I, as stated previously.

I want a fat happy life

Fat is gross

where I'm loved, get to learn a lot of stuff and pass it on to some folks and generally be left alone. Generally people don't pick being a rebel, you just get caught up in the whole bloody business.

I mean I'm with you, I don't care to be a rebel either, but I'd rather be prepared if it happens to fall to my lot.

Anyways, you don't even know my position, since I'm not for assault rifle ban. Prohibition is likely going to happen due to these events. I just don't want assault weapons as easy to buy as computer parts.

I agree. I would prefer some kind of brain scan but I know that would be going down the wrong path.

[Bardia]

I think it is easy to blame guns, gun control laws or the lack there of for this incident, but I think it more accurately represents a societal failure. A failure for people to get to know each other well enough so that others feel like they have a place to fit in or at least well enough to pick up on some warning signals that someone is dangerous. Maybe the solution has nothing to do with guns at all.

[munenori2]

I think I should own all the assault weapons.

[Saberstorm]

I own an AK-47.

[Creepy-male]

Believe me, I do not want to go to war with the government. I have no desire to face down trained soldiers with better weapons and more training. I'm not a fucking retard.

I do think that the threat of citizens having automatic weapons is a good motivator for politicians to perform well.

I was more agreeing with you than disagreeing with you.

[Absurd]

I've always been kinda of anarchist. ^_^

You'll fit in nicely with the rest if Anarchists in here, plenty of them around...

[InvisibleJim]

Someone on a facebook wall just said 'guns save more lives than they take'. I don't want to live on this planet any more

[Raver]

I found an interesting article and a link concerning this issue stating that the killer's medication could of been a notable factor:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/339151
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

[Absurd]

I found an interesting article concerning this issue stating that the killer's medication could of been a notable factor:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/339151

Don't ban medication.

[Raver]

Don't ban medication.

Well they shouldn't be banned, but doctors should stop giving them out like candy. Medication could help some people's conditions, but worsen others' conditions so doctors should consider alternatives rather than just give out medication as the only option imo.

[Absurd]

Well they shouldn't be banned, but doctors should stop giving them out like candy. They might help some people's conditions, but worsen others' conditions so psychiatrists should consider alternatives rather than just give medication as the only option imo.

Okay, time to admit, I was on a roll making fun of "don't ban this, don't ban that" in a true kvlt libertarian spirit this board has to offer. Well, as for meds, you get addicted to them the moment certain dose is not enough, so you go for more, and when more is not enough anymore as well, you go for "hard meds."

Blind circle.

Besides, smart docs know when it is enough, this is why people get appointments and some of them are actually taken off meds when situation gets better, don't have to mention the meds one takes to combat some kind of dilemma can produce same effects the meds were meant to combat.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

From looking at various opinions on the issue, I see an overall failure to ask the obvious question: why did he have such easy access to his mother's guns? Why weren't they kept in a more secure area, say a locked closet to which she hid the key? From what I've heard, she obtained them legally. He tried to go out and buy a gun but gave up after being confronted with a 14-day wait policy, presumably at which point he stole his mother's.

[Saberstorm]

I would bet that most mothers will operate on the basic assumption that their kid is not going to shoot them in the head several times. They therefore do not reflexively hide / lock away all dangerous implements in the house.

[mu4]

I would bet that most mothers will operate on the basic assumption that their kid is not going to shoot them in the head several times. They therefore do not reflexively hide / lock away all dangerous implements in the house.

Actually he was assigned a psychologist for being a threat to his own life so the guns shouldn't have been accessible due to the danger they poised to his own life. He was viewed as possibly suicidal in his teens and obviously this has proven true, it's just he took a lot of kids with him along the way.

Also his mother was part of the "prepper" movement..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-disaster.html

[Saberstorm]

Yes, he had the symptoms of early, emergent paranoid schizophrenia. He should have been placed in an asylum, along with James Holmes and Jared Loughner. We need to return to the concept of the asylum! Outpatient treatment of Paranoid Schizophrenia is obviously not viable.

[Iris]

Actually he was assigned a psychologist for being a threat to his own life so the guns shouldn't have been accessible due to the danger they poised to his own life.

What kind of mother allows her son who struggles with a personality disorder to have access to her guns? I have read on CBS news that she also took her sons to practice shooting at a gun range and that relatives reported that she had very high standards for her sons regarding their shooting skill.