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Thread: Connecticut shooting, gun control

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Default Connecticut shooting, gun control

    Voice your opinions...

    Preliminary reports that a sig sauer assault rifle was used... so it's likely another ban will be up for even more serious discussion due to the 3 shooting this year involving these weapons....

    I wouldn't be very surprised if the ban comes in 2013.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Yea... kindergarten class...

    Troll smarter...

    Anyways, with sufficient training and suprise, even people trained to shoot back will be mowed down quite easily.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Doubt it. Also he was in a bullet proof vest.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    A bulletproof vest just prevents a bullet from killing you, it doesn’t turn a person into an invincible terminator that can take bullets and keep on fighting—he’d still drop the floor and be in a great deal of pain if shot.
    He might drop down in pain but people can have a good deal of pain tolerance and can be fairly stout. Anyways, generally untrained individuals have a hard time doing much of anything when bullets are flying around, even people who know how to shoot. Even going to a paintball field, you will find people generally find cover, and that's just to hide from paint balls. Human instinct needs to be overcome thru training in order to respond to this sort of situation. So it would require teachers to be trained and to have them be in the right place at the right time. That's not exactly feasible either. Given this individual only killed 6 adults, it's entirely possible none of them would have guns as well.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    If the guy had bullets coming back his way, he’d be much more suppressed in terms of what he could do.

    Also I’m not sure “training” you think exists out there that makes people more capable of keeping cool under fire. There is no such thing in the police force, or the military for that matter.
    Wut?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_fire_exercise

    One big training part of live fire exercise is not the bullets coming at you, it's the noise. Anyways, with surprise, even individuals with guns may have no time to react. I seriously doubt one teacher with a 9mm will be able to take this guy down unless the teacher got lucky or is well-trained.

    9 out of 10 times, I would expect a individual with a bullet proof vest and a assault rifle to steam roll any individual with a hand gun.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Maybe banning guns would help, maybe not. But there are people I know who I am glad have guns and I feel safe(r) around them. Granted, they also have other qualities and skills that make them reliable and good citizens/people.

    Also,
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.
    Violence starts in people's minds and hearts. I don't think there's any one simple solution (other than invasive totalitarian control, a la TSA...).
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    But there are people I know who I am glad have guns and I feel safe(r) around them. .
    LMAO americans.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Maybe banning guns would help, maybe not. But there are people I know who I am glad have guns and I feel safe(r) around them. Granted, they also have other qualities and skills that make them reliable and good citizens/people.

    Also,


    Violence starts in people's minds and hearts. I don't think there's any one simple solution (other than invasive totalitarian control, a la TSA...).
    I would say banning guns wouldn't help any specific instance, but may reduce frequency. These shooters tend to attack areas of weakness where they will be able to do what they intend without resistance so it's unlikely there to be individuals who can stop them.

    It's really hard to stop an assault weapon carrying and vested individual with a handgun, regardless of how skilled or capable. Also most individuals are simply incapable of responding in this sort of situation, even well trained individuals.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Sure, active-duty combat troops do some simulations in it, esp. if they’ve a deployment coming up. And being exposed to the sights/sounds/environment of such conditions can help promote some marginal desensitization when faced with the real thing… though mentally conditioning one’s self for operations in Baghdad is going to be a much different psychological experience, compared to taking on a madman at a kindergarten school in your own hometown.

    How does one prepare for that sort of contingency? Because your police aren’t getting trained in this sort thing, and likely wouldn’t fare much better than a typical gun-owner.
    You kinda of proved the point.

    An individual with a assault rifle and vest has a huge firepower advantage against almost anyone with a handgun. I think most cops are just going to hide behind a barrier much like any teacher with a gun. So your original point of a couple of teachers with guns is fallacious and only infrequently would any defensive individual be capable of preventing the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by unlikely to happen
    A teacher or two on scene with concealed carry likely could’ve prevented this from escalating into the bloodbath
    I doubt it, the moment this individual entered the classroom, and killed his mother, the body count was going to be in the double digits.

    Most individuals can't deal with paintball situations much less live fire situations unless one is acclimated and somewhat expecting it, ala combat zone.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The overriding point isn’t about having an actual gun battle with the assailant, but having the deterrence present in the situation to either make the individual reconsider and not carry out the act in the 1st place, or to at least contain them in the event they decide to try anyway.

    Schools are a wonderful place for crazies to rationalize carrying out violence, considering they usually “Gun Free Zone” signs posted outside.
    Well this guys was going to kill his mother... so it was kinda of a personal thing...

    Schools aren't really gun free zones, my high school had two police officers on staff full time.

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    I can't help but think that people who want to shoot others will be able to get ahold of a gun somehow and I would rather have one too. I guess for me its more interesting to try to figure out why these shootings are happening... what is the psychology behind them and why can't we catch them sooner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    LMAO americans.
    You've been doing a good job of making yourself unappealing lately.


    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I would say banning guns wouldn't help any specific instance, but may reduce frequency. These shooters tend to attack areas of weakness where they will be able to do what they intend without resistance so it's unlikely there to be individuals who can stop them.

    It's really hard to stop an assault weapon carrying and vested individual with a handgun, regardless of how skilled or capable. Also most individuals are simply incapable of responding in this sort of situation, even well trained individuals.
    Yes, which is one reason why I think this is a multi-faceted problem without any one clean solution. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure it out and make changes where we can, of course.





    My father has a slightly racist view of it all - he notes that in the vast majority of incidences like this, it's a young white male. He thinks it's because they see guns as toys to get them attention. In contrast (according to him), young black men--who are stereotypically linked to crime and violence--don't do things like this because the are used to dealing with guns as tools.

    ...in case anyone's looking for yet another perspective on things...
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Even people with fucked up intents still act rationally to attain their desired ends.

    Ah, most of the schools here still have those signs.

    Our posted security dude just had pepper spray and a baton, which was fine because basically nothing bad ever happened. Though my last year there he got mauled pretty awful by a student, so they brought in an armed officer after that and the signs came down.
    Generally people who commit these sort of acts aren't going to worry about a rent-a-cop or a cop on the locale, much less an armed teacher.

    They have probably rehearsed what they are going to do a lot in their head before doing it, they are prepared if a cop comes up and etc.

    The aurora shooter and the shooter in the mall both had their assault rifle jam. This shooting the assault rifle did not jam. So this will be a significant point in the gun control debate.

    It's very likely in my mind next year or 2014 some sort of assault weapon ban will make it thru congress which will prohibit the distribution of assault weapons and large capacity magazines.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Correct. There’s a number countries in the world with comparable and even more liberal policies re: gun ownership than the United States, yet they don’t have much in the way of gun violence.

    Some of the gun/capita rates for different nations have apparently been compiled here—albeit this is just a measure of quantity, and doesn’t necessarily correspond to the content of what’s readily available for ownership.
    American gun ownership is still the highest. The laws generally don't cover existing firearms.

    IMO, gun violence is more likely to be associated with gun ownership then gun laws. I don't think laws have much effect except to reduce increase in gun ownership.

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    I don't think banning specific weapons is going to magic stop these types of scenarios occurring, the difficulties are deeper wound in society, idk what happened but i imagine the person murdering innocent people was a victim him/herself. The whole thing makes me very sad on a larger scale, humanity lets down humanity.

    I'm not sure if i will need to explain further or if people will 'get it' but i see similarities between these (as in thread title) and these...
    http://www.msf.org/msf/articles/2012...ct-in-kivu.cfm

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    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

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    It's like I just expressed a little bit ago on Facebook -- guns are not the issue, people are. People who want to kill will find a way to kill. Take note of similar news. So what if we ban guns -- will we eventually have to ban butter knives and spoons because people are beginning to kill others with those?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The Aurora theatre also happened to be a gun-free zone, so it makes perfect sense why the shooter chose that location, doesn’t it? Obviously the potential presence or absence of individuals who might be able to shoot back, affects the rational calculus of the perpetrators quite a bit.
    You mean because it's Batman premier...

    The guy was prepared for a firefight with the swat team, no he did not pick a gun free zone because of the lack of resistance.

    If you put on a bullet proof vest/swat uniform, you expect eventual resistance. Even in gun-free-zones people can still carry. I know my friend carries his pistol to all sorts of gun-free-zone/restaurants which aren't supposed to have guns within 1000 feet.

    Almost every restaurant/bar/shopping area in the US is a gun-free-zone... yet guns are everywhere. The gun culture in America basically makes a gun very much a possibility even in the majority of gun free zones. Trust me, I go to the theatre in Atlanta, a lot of individuals are packing heat... ^_^

    The thing is that even individuals that are packing heat, isn't going to take on someone in body armor and a assault rifle. The first instinct is to run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roro View Post
    It's like I just expressed a little bit ago on Facebook -- guns are not the issue, people are. People who want to kill will find a way to kill. Take note of similar news. So what if we ban guns -- will we eventually have to ban butter knives and spoons because people are beginning to kill others with those?
    Well that man only wounded 20 kids not killed 20 kids...

    Also almost all the multi-individual knife attacks in China are against small children because knifing 20 adults is fairly difficult to accomplish.

    A gun is a extremely efficient killing mechanism for multiple individuals, adult or otherwise. Range/ease of use etc, I quite like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Well that man only wounded 20 kids not killed 20 kids...
    Maybe he didn't want to actually kill. If he wanted to kill, I'm sure he could have. He had access to the kids long enough to wound them, I'm sure if he wanted to kill he could have aimed for the throat, slit a little harder, and killed them.

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    Kids in the class need to be taught SWAT team kinda stuff. Throwing books (as a weapon, as moving cover, as a distraction, and as a general deterrent all at once), knocking desks over to be used as makeshift cover, just all-out bumrushing the bastard, etc.; in the end, there's twenty or so students and one gunman and those twenty need to viscerally know that they aren't totally helpless, that a gun must be aimed and shot by a mortal human being and it ain't a free pass to be superman or nothing...

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roro View Post
    Maybe he didn't want to actually kill. If he wanted to kill, I'm sure he could have. He had access to the kids long enough to wound them, I'm sure if he wanted to kill he could have aimed for the throat, slit a little harder, and killed them.
    People are just generally shit with knives... also he was likely using something like a kitchen knife or a vegetable cleaver, not something like a k-bar or a knife made for killing.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Kids in the class need to be taught SWAT team kinda stuff. Throwing books (as a weapon, as moving cover, as a distraction, and as a general deterrent all at once), knocking desks over to be used as makeshift cover, just all-out bumrushing the bastard, etc.; in the end, there's twenty or so students and one gunman and those twenty need to viscerally know that they aren't totally helpless, that a gun must be aimed and shot by a mortal human being and it ain't a free pass to be superman or nothing...
    First you need to be trained to not run and hide when the first shot goes off. It's probably easier to teach kids to do it then adults tho...

    *sarcasm Maybe we just need all kids to be Sudanese child soldiers, who are brought up on rape and systematic violence...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Shrug. A teacher or two on scene with concealed carry likely could’ve prevented this from escalating into the bloodbath that it did.
    When has someone with a concealed carry permit EVER stopped something like this?

    Most people can't act when they are shocked and mentally unprepared.

    I'm not taking a position one way or another, but the concealed carry spiel when a mass shooting happens always makes my eyes roll. I would love to say one example of a gun carrying hero saving the day.

    Now if Herzog had been there...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    For further context, one may wish to compare the intentional homicide rates for various countries. The winner is Honduras at 91.6—the US is over halfway down the list at a paltry 4.2, topped by many countries with rigorous bans on private gun ownership:

    UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
    Country Rate Count Region Subregion
    Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
    El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
    Côte d'Ivoire 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
    Jamaica 52.2 1,430 Americas Caribbean
    Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
    Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
    U.S. Virgin Islands 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
    Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
    Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
    Zambia 38.0 4,710 Africa Eastern Africa
    Uganda 36.3 11,373 Africa Eastern Africa
    Malawi 36.0 5,039 Africa Eastern Africa
    Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
    Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
    Colombia 33.4 15,459+ Americas South America
    South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
    Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
    Central African Republic 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
    Bahamas 27.4 94 Americas Caribbean
    Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
    Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
    Dominican Republic 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
    Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa
    Sudan 24.2 10,028++ Africa Northern Africa
    Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9 25 Americas Caribbean
    Guinea 22.5 2,152 Africa Western Africa
    Ethiopia 22.5 20,239 Africa Eastern Africa
    Dominica 22.1 15 Americas Caribbean
    Burundi 21.7 1,726 Africa Eastern Africa
    Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7 13,558 Africa Middle Africa
    Panama 21.6 759 Americas Central America
    Brazil 21.0 40,974 Americas South America
    Equatorial Guinea 20.7 137 Africa Middle Africa
    Guinea-Bissau 20.2 294 Africa Western Africa
    Kyrgyzstan 20.1 1,072 Asia Central Asia
    Kenya 20.1 7,733 Africa Eastern Africa
    Montserrat 19.7 1 Americas Caribbean
    Cameroon 19.7 3,700 Africa Middle Africa
    Greenland 19.2 11 Europe Northern Europe
    Angola 19.0 3,426 Africa Middle Africa
    Guyana 18.6 140 Americas South America
    Burkina Faso 18.0 2,876 Africa Western Africa
    Eritrea 17.8 879 Africa Eastern Africa
    Namibia 17.2 352 Africa Southern Africa
    Rwanda 17.1 1,708 Africa Eastern Africa
    Mexico 16.9 25,757+ Americas North America
    Chad 15.8 1,686 Africa Middle Africa
    Ghana 15.7 3,646 Africa Western Africa
    Ecuador 15.2 2,638 Americas South America
    North Korea 15.2 3,658 Asia Eastern Asia
    Benin 15.1 1,262 Africa Western Africa
    Sierra Leone 14.9 837 Africa Western Africa
    Mauritania 14.7 485 Africa Western Africa
    Botswana 14.5 287 Africa Southern Africa
    Zimbabwe 14.3 1,775 Africa Eastern Africa
    Gabon 13.8 200 Africa Middle Africa
    Nicaragua 13.6 785 Americas Central America
    French Guiana 13.3 30 Americas South America
    Papua New Guinea 13.0 854 Oceania Melanesia
    Swaziland 12.9 141 Africa Southern Africa
    Bermuda 12.3 8 Americas Northern America
    Comoros 12.2 85 Africa Eastern Africa
    Nigeria 12.2 18,422 Africa Western Africa
    Cape Verde 11.6 56 Africa Western Africa
    Grenada 11.5 12 Americas Caribbean
    Paraguay 11.5 741 Americas South America
    Barbados 11.3 31 Americas Caribbean
    Togo 10.9 627 Africa Western Africa
    Gambia 10.8 106 Africa Western Africa
    Peru 10.3 2,969 Americas South America
    Myanmar 10.2 4,800 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Russia 10.2 14,574 Europe Eastern Europe
    Liberia 10.1 371 Africa Western Africa
    Costa Rica 10.0 474 Americas Central America
    Nauru 9.8 1 Oceania Micronesia
    Bolivia 8.9 884 Americas South America
    Kazakhstan 8.8 1,418 Asia Central Asia
    Mozambique 8.8 1,925 Africa Eastern Africa
    Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7 3 Americas Caribbean
    Mongolia 8.7 239 Asia Eastern Asia
    Senegal 8.7 1,027 Africa Western Africa
    British Virgin Islands 8.6 2 Americas Caribbean
    Cayman Islands 8.4 5 Americas Caribbean
    Seychelles 8.3 7 Africa Eastern Africa
    Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
    Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
    Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
    Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
    Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
    Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
    Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
    Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
    Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
    Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
    Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
    Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
    Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
    Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
    Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
    Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America
    Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe
    Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean
    Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia
    Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia
    United States 4.2 12,996 Americas Northern America
    Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia
    Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe
    Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa
    Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia
    Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia
    Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe
    Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa
    Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America
    India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia
    Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia
    Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America
    Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia
    Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe
    Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia
    Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia
    Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa
    Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe
    Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia
    Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia
    Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia
    South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia
    Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe
    Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa
    Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia
    Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia
    Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia
    Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia
    Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe
    Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia
    Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia
    Israel 2.1 159+ Asia Western Asia
    Bulgaria 2.0 147 Europe Eastern Europe
    Romania 2.0 421 Europe Eastern Europe
    Iraq 2.0 608+ Asia Western Asia
    São Tomé and Príncipe 1.9 3 Africa Middle Africa
    Macedonia 1.9 40 Europe Southern Europe
    Jordan 1.8 100 Asia Western Asia
    Cyprus 1.7 19 Asia Western Asia
    Belgium 1.7 180 Europe Western Europe
    Czech Republic 1.7 181 Europe Eastern Europe
    Maldives 1.6 5 Asia Southern Asia
    Canada 1.6 554 Americas Northern America
    Vietnam 1.6 1,346 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Bosnia and Herzegovina 1.5 56 Europe Southern Europe
    Slovakia 1.5 84 Europe Eastern Europe
    Somalia 1.5 138+ Africa Eastern Africa
    Greece 1.5 176 Europe Southern Europe
    Algeria 1.5 516 Africa Northern Africa
    Armenia 1.4 44 Asia Western Asia
    Croatia 1.4 62 Europe Southern Europe
    Morocco 1.4 447 Africa Northern Africa
    Andorra 1.3 1 Europe Southern Europe
    Hungary 1.3 133 Europe Eastern Europe
    Ireland 1.2 54 Europe Northern Europe
    Serbia 1.2 123 Europe Southern Europe
    Portugal 1.2 124 Europe Southern Europe
    United Kingdom 1.2 722 Europe Northern Europe
    Egypt 1.2 992 Africa Northern Africa
    Samoa 1.1 2 Oceania Polynesia
    Tunisia 1.1 117 Africa Northern Africa
    Netherlands 1.1 179 Europe Western Europe
    Poland 1.1 436 Europe Eastern Europe
    France 1.1 682 Europe Western Europe
    Tonga 1.0 1 Oceania Polynesia
    Malta 1.0 4 Europe Southern Europe
    Bhutan 1.0 7 Asia Southern Asia
    Sweden 1.0 91 Europe Northern Europe
    Australia 1.0 229 Oceania Australasia
    Saudi Arabia 1.0 265+ Asia Western Asia
    China 1.0 13,410 Asia Eastern Asia
    Federated States of Micronesia 0.9 1 Oceania Micronesia
    Vanuatu 0.9 2 Oceania Melanesia
    Qatar 0.9 13 Asia Western Asia
    New Zealand 0.9 39 Oceania Australasia
    Denmark 0.9 47 Europe Northern Europe
    Italy 0.9 529 Europe Southern Europe
    United Arab Emirates 0.8 39 Asia Western Asia
    Spain 0.8 390 Europe Southern Europe
    Germany 0.8 690 Europe Western Europe
    Macau 0.7 4 Asia Eastern Asia
    Slovenia 0.7 15 Europe Southern Europe
    Oman 0.7 18 Asia Western Asia
    Switzerland 0.7 52 Europe Western Europe
    Guam 0.6 1 Oceania Micronesia
    Bahrain 0.6 6 Asia Western Asia
    Norway 0.6 29 Europe Northern Europe
    Austria 0.6 56 Europe Western Europe
    Brunei 0.5 2 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    French Polynesia 0.4 1 Oceania Polynesia
    Iceland 0.3 1 Europe Northern Europe
    Singapore 0.3 16 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Japan 0.3 442 [8] Asia Eastern Asia
    Hong Kong 0.2 17 Asia Eastern Asia
    Monaco 0.0 0 Europe Western Europe
    Palau 0.0 0 Oceania Micronesia
    Switzerland is low on that list, with a high rate gun-ownership: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland
    Like Minde suggested, there are multiple factors in gun-deaths, and the number of guns is not the only (nor imo the most important) factor

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    First you need to be trained to not run and hide when the first shot goes off. It's probably easier to teach kids to do it then adults tho...

    *sarcasm Maybe we just need all kids to be Sudanese child soldiers, who are brought up on rape and systematic violence...
    come back when you have a real response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The fact that you don’t hear about it is sort of the point—i.e., some bad shit was prevented from transpiring into tragically bad shit, so a headline like “Psychokiller madman slaughters 20 people in hail of gun violence” doesn’t happen.



    If that were actually true, then clearly nobody should bother owning guns at all, not even police. If every human merely devolved into blobs of apoplectic fear incapable of action when faced with danger, this species wouldn’t be here.
    I can't even find it if I search for it though. That's the thing.

    It's easy to sit back and say "blah blah it's not true that people are incapable of action when faced with danger," but I would like to see what you would do it someone came into a store you were shopping at and started shooting the place up.

    I've been in a similar situation twice and I had to forcibly remove myself from the situation the second time and I couldn't get my brain together to do it for two days. I'm no sissy girl, but I felt absolutely paralyzed. People can react in these situations if they have a fuck of a lot of training. For an average person? Eh.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Switzerland is low on that list, with a high rate gun-ownership: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland
    Like Minde suggested, there are multiple factors in gun-deaths, and the number of guns is not the only (nor imo the most important) factor
    Switzerland is also quite different as almost all males know how to handle guns and have military training.

    A multitude of factors are involved in gun death which is obvious, however, per location there will generally be a most important factor. In a warzone, it might be war, etc etc etc...

    It's impossible to generalize these things across all regions which is why nations/states/municipalities often have their own rules and regulations concerning arms.

    In the US, it's hard to say what is the most important factor. However I think due to the crimes, much of the public and legislature will be motivated to pursue some sort of assault weapons ban.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The fact that you don’t hear about it is sort of the point—i.e., some bad shit was prevented from transpiring into tragically bad shit, so a headline like “Psychokiller madman slaughters 20 people in hail of gun violence” doesn’t happen.

    If that were actually true, then clearly nobody should bother owning guns at all, not even police. If every human merely devolved into blobs of apoplectic fear incapable of action when faced with danger, this species wouldn’t be here.
    A lot of people heard the gunshot from around the school and called the police, how many of those individuals had guns and went to help. I don't think concealed weapons are a huge deterrence. Given how many concealed weapons I know are at movie theatres across the nation, I don't think that's a deterrent either.

    People are just generally too chickenshit to use their gun imo.

    Also Gabby Giffords was protected by multiple body guards and still was shot.

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    Someone in the thread about the summer movie theatre shooting said something to the effect of: "Basically, in terms of gun control, America is FUBAR." I agree with that person, whoever it was. There are now too many guns out there, with too many feeling entitled to owning these weapons... I actually felt numb to the last shooting, but this one did break through my jaded misanthropy because it's a fucking elementary school. The kids that aren't dead are now horribly traumatized. The parents and teachers must be going halfway insane. What a nightmare our race has fashioned.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I can't even find it if I search for it though. That's the thing.

    It's easy to sit back and say "blah blah it's not true that people are incapable of action when faced with danger," but I would like to see what you would do it someone came into a store you were shopping at and started shooting the place up.

    I've been in a similar situation twice and I had to forcibly remove myself from the situation the second time and I couldn't get my brain together to do it for two days. I'm no sissy girl, but I felt absolutely paralyzed. People can react in these situations if they have a fuck of a lot of training. For an average person? Eh.
    I think most people have never been in a fake gunfight with paintballs and airsoft weapons much less a real gunfight or major traumatic situation.

    Even trained individuals will often choose to find cover against an assault weapon and say in a movie theater when people are in a panic, it's almost impossible to get a clear shot on the gunman while the gunman doesn't care who he hits. An opportunity to respond only arises once enough people have cleared and died that it becomes possible for a response, which means already there will be a fairly large casualty count.

    It generally takes a lot of individuals to take down even a lone gunman, and often the gunman will be able to get some shots off, ala Gabby Giffords, etc...

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    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    For further context, one may wish to compare the intentional homicide rates for various countries. The winner is Honduras at 91.6—the US is over halfway down the list at a paltry 4.2, topped by many countries with rigorous bans on private gun ownership:
    That's an interesting list. But it depends what countries you want to compare yourselves. To me the rate for USA sound very high considering that most countries with higher rates than the US are third world countries or countries in the former USSR. Countries like the UK, France, Germany, Denmark are way lower on the list.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I can't even find it if I search for it though. That's the thing.

    It's easy to sit back and say "blah blah it's not true that people are incapable of action when faced with danger," but I would like to see what you would do it someone came into a store you were shopping at and started shooting the place up.

    I've been in a similar situation twice and I had to forcibly remove myself from the situation the second time and I couldn't get my brain together to do it for two days. I'm no sissy girl, but I felt absolutely paralyzed. People can react in these situations if they have a fuck of a lot of training. For an average person? Eh.
    What kind of situation was this btw. I'm pretty good in some traumatic situations and bad in others... but I've had some experience which probably made me more adept. Still I'm no hero, and it would still require a lot of opportunity to go against someone with a lot more firepower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Doubt it. Also he was in a bullet proof vest.
    Shoot him in the gun hand or the legs or the face.

    Or forget the whole gun idea. Sure-make guns illegal. And pass out hand grenades to protect children from people who have guns illegally.

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    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Shoot him in the gun hand or the legs or the face.

    Or forget the whole gun idea. Sure-make guns illegal. And pass out hand grenades to protect children from people who have guns illegally.
    Most people wish they could make a headshot under fire.. but I doubt many could.

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    This debate repeats over and over and always with the same stupid arguments on both sides.

    First of all, indeed, gun ownership increases the risk of major violence. Guns are weapons after all and are among the most sophisticated we know today. But guns still don't fire themselves, though, so the true origin of violence lies somewhere else.

    Politicians are very good at sidetracking issues. They don't want to deal with them on a very deep level. Likely because they don't really care but even if if they do, they probably still don't understand them. So they like to present things that seem like relevant to the issue but that are unlikely to change things by much, if at all. And one of such things is gun ownership laws.

    Why someone takes a gun and starts a killing spree escapes my mind. Surely, every incident has different motivations. But one thing that is common is that such incidents are typical in the US. It could be that there are many more guns in the US than any other place or it could be something else. And like I said, since weapons still don't fire themselves, then the problem is other than the quantity of guns.

    I don't know many details about the culture over there but I surely know a few important facts. And one of them is that families are far less important there than in other parts of the world. I still can't understand the obsession of youth over there to leave their parent's home early. Or maybe is it the urge of the parents to get rid of their children as fast as possible? Otherwise you can't explain the colonies of retired in other places.

    Here in Mexico students go to the university and usually still sleep in their parents house. They are in constant contact with their family. You see, in your family there is an specific reason to treat you well (at least in theory): you're sharing a blood link. But in the US it's very commonto send them to student-only dormitories. This is relevant because, from what I've observed, when you throw a bunch of people of about the same age but who have nothing in common in a place and force them to be together, problems are likely to arise. Such places do not have hard rules in reality and when you allow people to live in anarchy and make their own, they usually end up with some nasty ones product of raw force and competition. Think about it. We know socionics. If you don't filter people by types, in any large group there are big chances that you're always surrounded by people who rubs you the wrong way. But since they are strangers they have absolutely no reason to be polite toward you. So conflicts get ugly.

    Being honest, I've seriously considered about killing someone who keeps rubbing me the wrong way at several points in my life. And I'm pretty sure that lots of people would say the same. But since I'm not a psychopath, I've never got past the idea. It's just a matter of finding someone with weaker inhibitions to turn such ideas into a real disaster.

    But let's be concise here: shootings aren't but the tip of the iceberg. Violence starts much earlier and is far more widespread that we're used to admit. It's not a coincidence that such things happen in places I described above: school, work, etc.
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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    Everyone should learn socionics. That would solve evurything.

    Mexico doesn't have a lot of gun violence outside the drug shit, but mikes prices made me wanna shoot someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Which is the cardinal error that Europeans (as well as Asians) make comparing the nature of their societies to the US.

    Euros live in societies that tend to have a high degree of cultural homogeneity, and I don’t think they quite understand how much more balkanized the US is by contrast. IMO, some of the propensity for violence stems from the fact that you’ve a diversity of different sub-cultures all packed in the same area, which can make empathic reciprocity difficult.
    This might be true for general gun violence, but I don't see that factor into the mass shootings. Those were mostly screwed-up white Americans shooting in largely white American settings.

    I honestly don't get the resistance to banning assault weapons. It baffles me. I would much rather be in a setting where the killer comes in with a knife or a handgun, thank you very much. Seriously, which civilian needs an assault weapon?
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    Violent people will result to other violent means. Gun control is not the solution. Guns are just an easier way of dealing with their violence.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Guns are just an easier way of dealing with their violence.
    Personally, I think if I went psycho, guns would be a horrible way of being violent. Push button-loud noise-someone falls over wouldn't be as satisfactory as, say, knifing small animals.
    (Maybe this is the wrong time to say something like that...but I'm pretty sure it's not the wrong place.)
    Last edited by Director Abbie; 12-15-2012 at 04:54 AM.

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    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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