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Thread: Absolute freedom

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Default Absolute freedom

    In a society, such thing does not exist but where exactly are the limits?

    Not all of us see things in the same light. For example, for people with with high empathy, it would be hard to remain neutral in a situation where a person is likely to get hurt. Would you allow someone to set himself on fire? In theory, it's a matter of personal freedom to do so but something tells me I won't allow it to happen if it was in my power to prevent it.

    That example is a bit extreme but what about religion? I don't think belief is harmless because if you trust some external force to fix your problems (for example) then you'll be prevented from attempting to fix them yourself. Like praying instead of giving medical assistance. Also, religions tend to consolidate into political organizations and often such organizations use the political power to do harm. If you support an organization you're accomplice at some level, maybe not directly, but then the supposed neutrality goes away.

    I think it's mostly a matter of the capacity of an individual to see long term connections between positions and actions and their consequences. Those who are more inclined to be individualistic tend to be shortsighted when it comes to such consequences, this is, they fail to acknowledge the negative implications of their actions and postures when it's not plain obvious.

    I know this area it's been discussed to death but we could apply some Socionics to it.
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    Imo, absolute freedom is somewhat unattainable even when external influences are removed from the picture as there are powerful internal influences in us that play a large role in our actions and decisions that we had little to no choice in creating. What we are is a result of coincidental factors stemming from genetics and early environmental factors at a young age that molded us into the human beings we are today, which we had little to no choice in determining. These factors have and continue to play a large a role in how we treat others and the decisions we make. However, I am only stating the deterministic point of view up to this point.

    On the other hand despite these overwhelming factors, we still contain a moderate amount of free will and we can modify our overall behavior patterns by increasing self awareness via meditation or hallucinogenic drug use. Other methods that are less esoteric include simply conditioning oneself through sheer will power to ignore one's instinctual natural course of action and operate via one's actual rational desire, which is the more difficult route to take. One effective solution would be to enhance yourself in the most optimal way by taking advantage of the brain's plasticity to elevate yourself via a variety of ways to a more superior version of yourself thus being able to possess sufficient free will and self awareness to not fall victim to your primitive instincts.

    In terms of Socionics, it doesn't matter what your type is because even though your type may give you specific strengths and weaknesses in different areas, in the end it's about utilizing those strengths effectively and controlling your weaknesses via sufficient self awareness. This also applies to psychological aspects of your personality that have little to nothing to do with Socionics or any other personality system as well.
    Last edited by Raver; 12-09-2012 at 09:30 AM. Reason: proofreading
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    That example is a bit extreme but what about religion? I don't think belief is harmless because if you trust some external force to fix your problems (for example) then you'll be prevented from attempting to fix them yourself. Like praying instead of giving medical assistance. Also, religions tend to consolidate into political organizations and often such organizations use the political power to do harm. If you support an organization you're accomplice at some level, maybe not directly, but then the supposed neutrality goes away.
    Religion isn't completely negative, it gives hopes and strenght to follow your dream. Most of the people who believe in religion don't prevent themselves from medical assistance.
    You see everything as black and white and hiperbolize things.

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    Mikemex is 5w6 intellectual in his own paint, this is where black and white thinking comes from...

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    In my opinion, absolute freedom can only be attained by single individuals, since the freedom to do everything necessarily includes the infringement of the freedom of others (or else, it wouldn't be "absolute" freedom). This is the limit of freedom, it has to end where it infringes anyone else's.

    In your "fire" example, I would not intervene as long as the person knows what they're doing and is aware of the consequences (I'm thinking of the Buddhist monk who lit himself on fire during a protest). If it was someone close to me, I'd of course try to convince them not to do it, but ultimately, I couldn't stop them. It's the same with most other situations I can think of right now.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    (I'm thinking of the Buddhist monk who lit himself on fire during a protest).
    TOKYO, Japan, 12 November 2006 — The Dalai Lama, opposing capital punishment and reiterating his appeal for its abolition, called for amnesty for the deposed Iraqi president Saddam Hussein for the death sentence against him.

    He didn't put fire to himself though...

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Absolute freedom is a mental orientation and cannot be located in externalities.
    You quoted Camus extensively where he spoke about killing himself to attain freedom.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    He didn't put fire to himself though...
    Do you even know what I'm talking about?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Yes, I do, unfortunately, I am familiar with the many various Buddhists sects, yes, sects, and this in not an isolated example, many did the same, not even being "Buddhist".

    Anyhow, lay your eyes on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom...et_controversy

    I know it is wikipedia, but there is more to it. Oh well, people see what they want to see.
    Last edited by Absurd; 12-09-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You quoted Camus extensively where he spoke about killing himself to attain freedom.
    Incorrect, I quoted Alan Watts mentioning Camus' opinion that there are only two serious philosophical questions, an expression which I'd guess came from The Myth of Sisyphus, a book that used to sit atop my toilet tank. And while Camus disqualified his moral fitness to halt the spiritual, intellectual, or corporeal suicides of those persons who sought relief from existential anguish through such acts of annihilation, he elucidated a philosophy advocating constructive engagement with life, and self-affirmation and self-definition through life. Camus didn't even enter my thoughts regarding my comment on freedom.

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    My point stands for I know your stance, so it is fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    My point stands for I know your stance, so it is fine.
    That is an unusual way of admitting that your reading comprehension and memory are complete shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    That is an unusual way of admitting that your reading comprehension and memory are complete shit.
    It doesn't have anything to do with that, and it is nothing personal, korpsey, I admit, I don't read what most people post on here, but like I said, it's nothing personal. And again, my point still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    It doesn't have anything to do with that, and it is nothing personal, korpsey, I admit, I don't read what most people post on here, but like I said, it's nothing personal. And again, my point still stands.
    Your personal point is incorrect, though that's on the normal side with you, personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Your personal point is incorrect, though that's on the normal side with you, personally.
    Fuck what? You want "personal points" go post more in that assumption thread, ye father of assumptions. You're blabbing about beliefs here, "personal points" are beliefs one holds, just like the one you uttered in this thread.

    Try harder turning this to your advantage next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Fuck what? You want "personal points" go post more in that assumption thread, ye father of assumptions. You're blabbing about beliefs here, "personal points" are beliefs one holds, just like the one you uttered in this thread.

    Try harder turning this to your advantage next time.
    Everything I've stated is true and so there is no advantage to be gained. If you took a moment to ask rather than pretending to know then you might actually understand, and if you understood you'd be able to describe what I mean. However, you've shown yourself incapable on either count so far, and so to escape the feeling of shame at your ignorance you falsely lay blame for your handicaps on me. This is how it is, and how it has been, because this is what you are. Now surprise the world: rise above your failures and disprove that this is also how it will also continue to be. Free yourself from yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Everything I've stated is true and so there is no advantage to be gained. If you took a moment to ask rather than pretending to know then you might actually understand, and if you understood you'd be able to describe what I mean. However, you've shown yourself incapable on either count so far, and so to escape the feeling of shame at your ignorance you falsely lay blame for your handicaps on me. This is how it is, and how it has been, because this is what you are. Now surprise the world: rise above your failures and disprove that this is also how it will also continue to be. Free yourself from yourself.
    Great, I can admit I went astray but you're going to have to do the same, so I am going to ask now. What is this absolute freedom that cannot be attained as long there is an antithesis to a thesis?

    Lolwut.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-an-assumption

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    In this thread.



    There are two problems I see with the idea of absolute freedom:
    1) If I did everything I want then I would limit other peoples freedoms, so a middle ground is most often useful
    2) Most of the time I think people don't know what they want or should have done until after the event anyway.

    These aren't new ideas, I don't think socionics is that helpful with problem number 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Great, I can admit I went astray but you're going to have to do the same, so I am going to ask now. What is this absolute freedom that cannot be attained as long there is an antithesis to a thesis?

    Lolwut.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-an-assumption
    First describe my stance you presume to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    First describe my stance you presume to understand.
    Now that was funny, very. I don't presume anything, it is you who wants to me to actually, I never claimed I "understand" you, and if I were, produce some tangible evidence to support your claim there, first.

    Two can play this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Now that was funny, very. I don't presume anything, it is you who wants to me to actually, I never claimed I "understand" you, and if I were, produce some tangible evidence to support your claim there, first.

    Two can play this game.
    If you took a moment to ask rather than pretending to know then you might actually understand, and if you understood you'd be able to describe what I mean. However, you've shown yourself incapable on either count so far, and so to escape the feeling of shame at your ignorance you falsely lay blame for your handicaps on me. This is how it is, and how it has been, because this is what you are. Now surprise the world: rise above your failures and disprove that this is also how it will also continue to be. Free yourself from yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    If you took a moment to ask rather than pretending to know then you might actually understand, and if you understood you'd be able to describe what I mean. However, you've shown yourself incapable on either count so far, and so to escape the feeling of shame at your ignorance you falsely lay blame for your handicaps on me. This is how it is, and how it has been, because this is what you are. Now surprise the world: rise above your failures and disprove that this is also how it will also continue to be. Free yourself from yourself.
    You once shit yourself that I don't have to repeat myself and I did come up with a question but seeing you dodged it once again, as you do, I'm going to make it double:

    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Absolute freedom is a mental orientation and cannot be located in externalities.
    Do you liek soup?

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    In your "fire" example, I would not intervene as long as the person knows what they're doing and is aware of the consequences (I'm thinking of the Buddhist monk who lit himself on fire during a protest). If it was someone close to me, I'd of course try to convince them not to do it, but ultimately, I couldn't stop them. It's the same with most other situations I can think of right now.
    This is where Socionics matters. A high level of empathy causes extreme levels of distress when in presence of other people's pain, so it's not a neutral act, it is equivalent to hurting others directly. This attitude of using your own freedom to hurt others is a typical behavior of defiant and rebellious children against their parents (or between two people who love each other in general): they may cut their veins or engage into drugs just to make them suffer. If you ask me, this is where true black-and-white thinking comes because they fail to acknowledge that it can't be considered an individual decision if there is other people involved. Feelings toward each other tends to blur the frontiers between people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    Religion isn't completely negative, it gives hopes and strenght to follow your dream. Most of the people who believe in religion don't prevent themselves from medical assistance.
    You see everything as black and white and hiperbolize things.
    I tend to see religion as negative because of the simple fact that it is sustained over false assumptions. And to support something false it is necessary to promote negative values such as ignorance, lack of criticism and such.

    Besides, I don't see the necessity for magical thinking at all as we can have hope, faith, feeling of support and others things without it. Although fictional, the best example of this is the Jedi Order of the Star Wars saga. They based their belief on secular concepts such as peace and justice and existed as a force to provide practical support. If you think we're far from that, just look backwards; the Red Cross, the International Brigades, etc.
    Last edited by mikemex; 12-09-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Absolute freedom is a mental orientation and cannot be located in externalities.
    Keep talking nerdy to us, baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    In a society, such thing does not exist but where exactly are the limits?

    Not all of us see things in the same light. For example, for people with with high empathy, it would be hard to remain neutral in a situation where a person is likely to get hurt. Would you allow someone to set himself on fire? In theory, it's a matter of personal freedom to do so but something tells me I won't allow it to happen if it was in my power to prevent it.

    That example is a bit extreme but what about religion? I don't think belief is harmless because if you trust some external force to fix your problems (for example) then you'll be prevented from attempting to fix them yourself. Like praying instead of giving medical assistance. Also, religions tend to consolidate into political organizations and often such organizations use the political power to do harm. If you support an organization you're accomplice at some level, maybe not directly, but then the supposed neutrality goes away.
    There once was a guy named Poopoo. He once read an article that said religious belief and praying can help sick people get better and give people hope when there is no action for them to take. Then Poopoo here's that such belief keeps people from taking action when they could have. So he thought, who is right and why does it matter?

    Once upon a time, some bored guys who were probably nerds, didn't have science to play with, so they invented philosophy. Philosophy eventually came to the conclusion that we live in a world of "unknowing". Magical "unknowing" *swooooosh*. And so the Mikemex believed that he didn't believe, but that the others believed; and the others believed they didn't believe, but that Mikemex believed. Tell me, where's the harm in that?

    I think it's mostly a matter of the capacity of an individual to see long term connections between positions and actions and their consequences. Those who are more inclined to be individualistic tend to be shortsighted when it comes to such consequences, this is, they fail to acknowledge the negative implications of their actions and postures when it's not plain obvious.

    I know this area it's been discussed to death but we could apply some Socionics to it.
    Or maybe the individualistic person is just bold and willing to deal with the elephant in the room to the social risk of being branded the black sheep? Maybe, maybe not, but anyhow, what suddenly made you Judge Judy?
    Last edited by strangeling; 12-10-2012 at 02:38 AM.

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    Even though your question is about social freedom, I want to see if legal freedom is even possible. If there cannot be legal freedom then there is no way there can be social freedom. I paint a picture of two states, which can be separately be described as "absolute freedom to property" and "absolute rights to property." The reason why I choose property is because it is a convenient illustration, but the assumptions can apply to other rights and freedoms that the state gives us. "Rights" and "freedoms" in this context are not compatible in their extreme forms. We have them in our society only through moderation.

    The State of Absolute Freedom to Property
    There is no ownership of property. You can go anywhere you want. There is no such thing as "trespassing" or "stealing" or "vandalism" as these are all crimes against property. There is no owner, and therefore no victim of these crimes. People may build houses and live in them, but there is no legal recourse if someone else chooses to dwell in them. Violence is not an option because only freedom to property rights exist in this society; in all other situations, the law is similar to ours, including the rights to safety, etc.

    The State of Absolute Right to Property
    There is no free property. All the land has already been discovered and taken by private owners, and therefore exploration is not possible. You cannot go onto the street, the park, or anywhere else without explicit permission from the owner. You are otherwise isolated onto your own property. This one is less fleshed out than the other, and I have yet to consider all of the implications.

    These are not complete illustrations, but it's something I have been thinking about for a while now. I think it has relevance to your question so it seemed constructive to discuss it here.
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