The Secret to Finding your Dual

[Azure Flame]

I think I might have found the secret to finding your dual.

You have to cross the emotivist/constructivist barrier.

Constructivists
Constructivists try to get into the right mindset for an activity and it takes time for them to get from one mindset to another. When they are at home, they are mentally prepared for anything that could happen at home and when they are at work, they switch over to work-mentality. They can get overwhelmed by emotions because once they get into an emotional state, they stay in that emotional state for a long time. Constructivists avoid emotional contact with others and they don't think it's necessary to adjust to the conversation emotionally. They use automatic polite responses and customs, like starting with "how are you?" or offering their guests coffee or tea. Practical conversation (talking "business") is easier for them. They like to repeat emotional states - rereading books, watching movies that they have already seen and revisiting places they liked. They avoid movies, situations and people who give them a negative mindset, because they have a difficult time getting rid of that mindset. Constructivists use emotional anchors (carefully chosen music, books, movies) to keep or strengthen their internal emotional state.

Emotivists
Emotivists try to enter the emotional atmosphere of the conversation and they try to keep the emotion in the conversation positive. They can talk about various things they have no interest in or do not believe in simply for the sake of maintaining a "positive spirit". Talking business is more difficult and the conversation topic can wander off into emotional exchange. They try to get new experiences and new emotions, which is why they travel to new places and rarely watch movies they have already seen. In emotivists calls for action/requests are not critically estimated and because of it they can get overwhelmed by them. After getting into a theme they stay in that mode of operation for a prolonged period of time and have difficulty switching, "disconnecting" (and because of it try to avoid unpleasant requests).

A pattern I've noticed based on this chart is that every dual pair has 1 emotivist, and 1 constructivist.

So stop for a second and think about "where" you would be if you were of the other dichotomy... that is most likely where you will find your dual.

A constructivist might be nervous to enter an emotivist community, because those emotions stick around for a long time.

An emotivist might be intimidated to enter a constructivist community, because the emotions and "themes" change abruptly and quickly.

So in essence, the two dichotomies intimidate one another, and generally don't enter one anothers' communities.

Thoughts?

[ashlesha]

there are some other reinin dichotomies that duals are opposite on.
is there any particular reason that constructivist/emotivist should be more of a barrier, or is it just your general "feeling?"
i think you might be latching onto this a little too heavily.

[Pa3s]

An extrovert might be nervous to enter an introvert community.

An introvert might be intimidated to enter an extrovert community.


Yet all of our duals are the opposite.

[Azure Flame]

there are some other reinin dichotomies that duals are opposite on.
is there any particular reason that constructivist/emotivist should be more of a barrier, or is it just your general "feeling?"
i think you might be latching onto this a little too heavily.

True, but those dichotomies don't necessarily describe the types of places to meet your dual.

For example: Positivsm/Negativism isn't very descriptive. How are you going to isolate the physical location of Positivists? How are you going to isolate the location of negativists? I suppose you could join a community of positivists if you're a negativist and hope for the best, but I really feel as if Emotivist/Constructivist is the most precise dichotomy in narrowing down the location of your dual.

Even asking/declaring isn't very descriptive.

I think I could even be latching onto emotivism/constructivism because of my Ni dual seeking function. But if you had, say, a Te dual seeking function, you might have some idea of what the opposing declaring/asking community would be?

[krieger]

wait until you see sparks flying and fairy dust puff up when a person walks by. thats when you've found duality.

[Absurd]

For example: Positivsm/Negativism isn't very descriptive. How are you going to isolate the physical location of Positivists? How are you going to isolate the location of negativists? I suppose you could join a community of positivists if you're a negativist and hope for the best, but I really feel as if Emotivist/Constructivist is the most precise dichotomy in narrowing down the location of your dual.

In Philadelphia?

wait until you see sparks flying and fairy dust puff up when a person walks by. thats when you've found duality.

In a factory?

Hmm, that would narrow down the location to Philadelphia and some factory, which one though?

[ashlesha]

True, but those dichotomies don't necessarily describe the types of places to meet your dual.

For example: Positivsm/Negativism isn't very descriptive. How are you going to isolate the physical location of Positivists? How are you going to isolate the location of negativists? I suppose you could join a community of positivists if you're a negativist and hope for the best, but I really feel as if Emotivist/Constructivist is the most precise dichotomy in narrowing down the location of your dual.

Even asking/declaring isn't very descriptive.

I think I could even be latching onto emotivism/constructivism because of my Ni dual seeking function. But if you had, say, a Te dual seeking function, you might have some idea of what the opposing declaring/asking community would be?

These things about emotivist/constructivist being unique in having specific locations and about fi/te being better contextualized with asking/declaring are things you just made up and I don't really feel like dealing with these new constructs. Maybe somebody else does.

[Azure Flame]

These things about emotivist/constructivist being unique in having specific locations and about fi/te being better contextualized with asking/declaring are things you just made up and I don't really feel like dealing with these new constructs. Maybe somebody else does.

ok ok. I'll revert back to the original and bold the important parts in my OP.

[Absurd]

http://thesecret.tv/

The saga continues.

[willekeurig]

I think using the S/N and T/F dichotomies & clubs is more effective. ESE and ILI, for example, are both constructivists, but they belong to "opposite" clubs and their interests/hobbies tend to be pretty different.

There are plenty of examples.. My sister is an ESE, and half of the people in her synchronized skating team are SF types. I'm studying social work and rougly 75% of my class are ethical types. Almost all NTs I know like role-playing games, video games and science fiction.. LSE and IEI are both emotivists, but I bet the number of LSE engineers greatly outnumbers the IEI ones. Etc.

[Suz]

The thing that confuses me the most about many of the Reinin dichotomies, this one included, is that they dont seem to be mutually exclusive.

I relate to both descriptions - constructivist and emotivist.

[Azure Flame]

Some random thoughts:

SLE-Se live in a world of sensation
SLE-Ti live in a world of creation and accomplishment
IEI-Ni live in a world of imagination
IEI-Fe live in a world of community and emotional connections

IEI-Ni's (who I usually attribute to also being E4's most of the time) tend to have crazy inner worlds that kinda scare me.
IEI-Fe's (who I usually attribute to being E2's) outgoing and emotionally exciting world is intimidating to me, it feels like I can't keep up.

In either case my dual's world intimidates me when I am introduced to them. Different flavors. Personally I like the Fe more than Ni, but I wouldn't be opposed to setting for Ni either.

If I continue this analogy to other quadras, I wonder if other personalities Identify with what I'm saying... about feeling overwhelmed by their dual partner's lifestyle. Overwhelmed, yet attracted to.

[Scapegrace]

You guys are over thinking this. Just pay Maritsa to find your dual for you.

[Minde]

I think using the S/N and T/F dichotomies & clubs is more effective. ESE and ILI, for example, are both constructivists, but they belong to "opposite" clubs and their interests/hobbies tend to be pretty different.

There are plenty of examples.. My sister is an ESE, and half of the people in her synchronized skating team are SF types. I'm studying social work and rougly 75% of my class are ethical types. Almost all NTs I know like role-playing games, video games and science fiction.. LSE and IEI are both emotivists, but I bet the number of LSE engineers greatly outnumbers the IEI ones. Etc.

Yeah, I've read that club differences can help you find your dual (and other types) because they gravitate toward the same kinds of activities and contexts. That's why it's called "clubs." But that can also make getting along with your dual, particularly early on, more difficult, because they have different habits/patterns and likings in terms of behaviors. I've actually read that in some instances duals initially don't like each other, and it's really only after being around each other a lot, and then separating, that they realize they actually get along well and "need" each other.

So, theoretically, one way to find your dual is to think about what kinds of hobbies their club tends toward, brace yourself (since it might be very different from what you're normally comfortable with) and insert yourself into where those hobbies occur. Then find ways to get to know the individuals better and on deeper levels.

[Scapegrace]

Do any of the authors of these socionics papers/book y'all read even have relevant degrees from reputable institutions? Sure doesn't seem like it.

[InvisibleJim]

Good news everyone, we have solved socionics.

Next week we will refocus on colonising Mars.

[Minde]

Do any of the authors of these socionics papers/book y'all read even have relevant degrees from reputable institutions? Sure doesn't seem like it.

Nope, I don't recall reading any such credentials in the vicinity of most socionics literature I've seen.







Then again, some of the best advice I've received throughout my life has come from really very uncredentialed sources; and some of the silliest has come from irrefutable institutions. So what's a girl to do?

[Azure Flame]

The following is a video of me going to a book club to meet IEI's. This is why duality is hard.

[Absurd]

No you frigging didn't post that, DJA.

[Scapegrace]

Nope, I don't recall reading any such credentials in the vicinity of most socionics literature I've seen.







Then again, some of the best advice I've received throughout my life has come from really very uncredentialed sources; and some of the silliest has come from irrefutable institutions. So what's a girl to do?

Shocker.

There is a difference between receiving good every-day advice and following it and treating the imprecise ramblings and google translated documents of a few Soviet trained wackjobs as both scientific fact and fairytale fantasy.

[Minde]

Shocker.

There is a difference between receiving good every-day advice and following and treating the imprecise ramblings and google translated documents of a few Soviet trained wackjobs as both scientific fact and fairytale fantasy.

Indeed. Though I personally wouldn't limit myself to only those two options. There's a lot more to look at, listen to, and choose from, particularly if you allow your brain to get involved.

Why the antagonism?

[Suz]

Yeah, I've read that club differences can help you find your dual (and other types) because they gravitate toward the same kinds of activities and contexts. That's why it's called "clubs." But that can also make getting along with your dual, particularly early on, more difficult, because they have different habits/patterns and likings in terms of behaviors. I've actually read that in some instances duals initially don't like each other, and it's really only after being around each other a lot, and then separating, that they realize they actually get along well and "need" each other.

So, theoretically, one way to find your dual is to think about what kinds of hobbies their club tends toward, brace yourself (since it might be very different from what you're normally comfortable with) and insert yourself into where those hobbies occur. Then find ways to get to know the individuals better and on deeper levels.

But within a club, you can just as easily (perhaps more easily) stumble upon your conflictor.

[Minde]

But within a club, you can just as easily (perhaps more easily) stumble upon your conflictor.

Yep, that's true. However, I think going into things knowing what you like and what you're looking for can help.

[zomgqwantz]

I don't think dualization is real. I prefer helen fishcher's types but I'm not a big fanboy or anything.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

DJ arendee:

You are a sweet person who knows how to touch people's hearts and make them care in ways that other people do not. This naturally comes with a 'victim mentality' that some people criticize you with (since naturally most people want to bite into things that are sweet, not things that are tough), but that's a hyper objective/rational point of view. Ie the scientific approach that I never take completely into account, especially with somebody of my advanced empathy levels. (I'm allowed to congratulate myself there cuz everybody knows it's true) But you know, knowing how you come off to *everybody* (not just people who personally enjoy you) is an important part of life too, I guess.

Anyways I personally like you. I know this gives ammo for everybody on the forum to tease us as being gay lovers, but you just have to ignore them if that somehow personally bothers you, which it shouldn't. Anyways, you would do very well with somebody like me- so just find the girl version of me. We are actually incredibly compatible romantically, as you are seriously fond of me even if it isn't necessarily good for your social image. I know you really liked it in tinychat that day when I helped you with your issues and I was patient and kind with you. I am also a sweet, sugary person myself and so I appreciate your genuine heartedness. However, I like it more when people realize this about themselves rather than have this 'defeatist' attitude about themselves about it. It's like 'I am a happy loving unicorn and I'm proud of it damnit!' I don't know... that sounds so silly but that's what I wish for you. You really are a loving, charming, handsome young man and you don't really need to drive yourself crazy overly-intellectualizing every little thing.

Anyways, a lot of people don't like it when you touch their hearts in such a pure way that you are capable of. Because it's like, they want this sense of balance. They get the point but they aren't completely satisfied with it. It's 'corny' to them but to me, I actually prefer it. You just really shouldn't care what people think so much. I know it's human nature but it just makes you insecure because your own perception gets drained out by people with their OWN agendas.

anyways you are definitely my dual in socionics. I also laughed so much when you said 'no homo' after you touched my heart in a loving way. I know you like me and I like you too. Don't be afraid of love! It can be so rare so precious... embrace it. Don't hold on too tightly but don't let go completely either.

[Creepy-pikachu]

Do any of the authors of these socionics papers/book y'all read even have relevant degrees from reputable institutions? Sure doesn't seem like it.

Depends on which source and for what is looked at

[Creepy-pikachu]

IEI-Ni live in a world of imagination
IEI-Fe live in a world of community and emotional connections

You just described ENFp and INFj, respectively.

[fen]

The Secret:

Stop looking/caring/tunnel-visioning yourself. knthxbye

[Eliza Thomason]

You could say I met my SLI Dual in a "club"; it was an online discussion group that is very heavily populated by ST's because of the subject (sorry I am being evasive, its for the sake of my SLI's privacy). Not that I knew what ST was at the time. Also this group is largely male. Its heavily moderated to stay on topic so there was a lot of PM'ing going on to finish thoughts. I had a lot of male attention with the PMs. It was nice but I was married, unhappily and lonely, and though I loved the attention I stopped it since I intended to be true in every way to my vows forever. But I trusted my SLI because he was strictly Catholic and I knew he would respect my vows in every way and he did. As it turns out my bad marraige did not last much longer, but we kept writing.

I was drawn to my SLI from the start. I could see he thought different from me but I loved how he thought and I could tell he appreciated how I thought. It just made this instant dynamic of attraction. I wanted to know his thoughts on everything and it was so nice he wanted to know mine too. It made for a very prolific email friendship. I don't think we would have kept up this way if we were Conflictors. I think because of all the Model A differences, it just would not have stayed rewarding and interesting. I was interested in every email he wrote, and he mine, because we answered each others emails fast always.

[the rest of that story is that we met after 9 years of writing - though not writing the last three when our lives got complicated - just last October and unexpectedly fell quite in love and are now working on putting our lives together forever].

At any rate, I noticed on that same discussion group there really are not very many NFs who write, so its noticeable when one does. Recently an NF introduced herself and a short time later posted, 'Goodness gracious! So much attention in pm's!!" I could not help but think it was her Duals reaching out to her.

So I am agreeing with DJ that the Constructivists/Emotivist group thing might be a good way to meet your Dual, as its how I met mine.

DJ I sure hope you find a nice IEI-Fe. My son is SLE, not sure what subtype or Enneagram yet. But I am praying he find a nice IEI to marry someday! He was dating all last year a skater/skier who was a very nice EII - his conflictor. He said he did like her talking about her feelings and such; that was not the problem. But the conflicts developed, which I saw early on once when she was very pointedly criticizing him for his haphazard homework effort. I know he is lax in this way at times but I don't see it does good to get on him in a negative way about it and it surprised me she that she lit into him so critically. But now I see that a conflictor really does get bothered with such differences.. Also she did not like how he was different" when with his friends, he is more of a goodfball cut-up around them; with her, they stayed home and snuggled and talked and watched movies and took walks or kayaked (at her home); she did not like to go out. I think he was tolerant/accepting of her different ways, but not the conflict which was good for neither.

[By the way, DJ, my son is looking into joining the Coast Guard. Trying for officers academy but that might be a long-shot. I know you did Navy. What do you think of his choice for a SLE??]

[willekeurig]

I think the best way to find the best dual for you is to just do what you'd normally do and keep your eyes open. If you start a new hobby (or whatever) only because it's stereotypical for your dual type the chances are you'll not be that compatible after all, duals or not. If you want a companion that shares your values/life goals/interests/etc I'd advice you to focus on finding people who are similar to you in those aspects, even if your dual type is less common around those circles.

E.g. It appears to be that many LSEs work as police men, but, not being a big fan of the police myself & living the kind of life that I do, trying to find a mate by going to a police school party would be a somewhat dumb choice. It's kind of an extreme example but you get the point.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Do any of the authors of these socionics papers/book y'all read even have relevant degrees from reputable institutions? Sure doesn't seem like it.

They may have received degrees in various fields at accredited institutions, but not in socionics. There are "socionics institutes" that issue degrees, probably as much to generate revenue for themselves as to zombify according to their respective schools' preferences, but those sheets of paper are useless anywhere but among other wizards of socionics.

Russia and the Soviet Union have had a long history of susceptibility to cranks and charlatans abusing the name of science to advance their ends:

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20100708/159711903.html

Often times it has been done with State patronage, and in the service of its political interests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggis..._schizophrenia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...341504/?page=1

Of special interest are articles and interviews by the recently-croaked physicist, Eduard Kruglyakov, who dedicated much of his career to combating the woo-woo and bunkum masquerading as science in his country:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_is...ence_dangerous
http://humanism.al.ru/en/articles.phtml?num=000070
http://humanism.al.ru/en/articles.phtml?num=000010
http://humanism.su/en/articles.phtml?num=000081

[InvisibleJim]

The secret to finding your dual is to spend as much time socialising with potential duals and as little time discussing the concept of dual as possible.

Results are everything.

In other news, I agree 100% with k0rpsys post above.

[Azure Flame]

You just described ENFp and INFj, respectively.

both NF's. Same shit. I meet INFj's all the time. Boulder Colorado is freaking delta town. If anyone wants to meet delta NF's, live in boulder colorado. I danced with 3 of them last friday, then sorta lost interest and left the bar halfway through the dance. Where was the chase? where was the drama? Where were the tears and raindrops and me on my knees crying out her name in the streets? None of it was there.

"Hey you with the fuzzy hat, come here and dance with me."
"derp ok."

[Azure Flame]

[By the way, DJ, my son is looking into joining the Coast Guard. Trying for officers academy but that might be a long-shot. I know you did Navy. What do you think of his choice for a SLE??]

I knew 6 SLE's while I was at the naval academy. I quit the navy after 1 year. 1 went surface warfare and seemingly enjoyed it, 1 SLE woman became a marine corp officer and I haven't heard from her since. I also get a very heavy sad vibe every time I made eye contact with her. the other 3 were either kicked out or quit.

Are SLE's built for the military? YOU BET! Do they belong in the military? Nope. The LSE's have taken over. Now that fist fights and breathing wrong will put you in the brig, there's really not much room for SLE behavior unless he joins the Marine Corps, where that sorta behavior is expected. Yet the Marine corps consciously tries to keep its marines angry at all times, because anger makes marines stronger fighters apparently.

If he's an SLE, the best advice I can give is: ignore 90% of the "advice" people give him. Talented, genuinely loving leaders are often cast aside or made fun of because they're a threat to the majority of horrible leadership in the military. Most of the military officers are there because its a cheap easy fix for narcissistic supply. If having children salute you and call you "sir" gives you a hard on, become a Naval Officer. Be prepared to learn how to deal with backstabbers, as over roughly 40% of the people you meet will be one.

As for my own personal advice, do not let him join the military, he will come out the other end fucked up in the head. All military members do, except deltas, for whatever reason. Deltas seem to be perfectly ok and love the military. I'd be careful your delta ass isn't accidentally pressuring him into it or making it seem like a good idea. SLE's are very impressionable young lads.

Pros of military academy: you meet many people and get really close to them. Excellent network. Secure job.
Cons: psychological damage. Expect him to be a very different person when he comes out.

Expect to get yelled at because:
-not standing upright enough when you walk
-standing too upright when you walk (arrogance)
-not making eye contact with people
-making too much eye contact with people (SLE's often avoid eye contact with strangers because we're percieved as hostile)
-not smiling enough (you're ruining other peoples' moods)
-being too happy (you're not taking it seriously enough)
-Being scared of superior officers (they pick on you even more when you're scared)
-not being scared enough of superior officers (there can't be 2 narcissists in 1 room at a time)
-not joining in on the giant beta male penis contest
-having ambitions
-not having any ambitions
-being genuine
-not being genuine
-telling the truth too often
-caught lying

the list goes on...

How to make an SLE cry:
Tell him to do something irrational and illogical else be punished. Wait for him to get angry then lecture him on how to behave properly, and have one on one conversations with all of the SLE's close friends on why you believe the SLE is mentally disturbed. Everytime the SLE speaks in his defense, inform him he is making excuses, and remove 1 day of his summer vacation.

[Zero11]

@BulletsAndDoves

Thanks for confirmation I commented on his youtube video that he comes across as an IEI / INFp and he deleted it

[Scapegrace]

How does one not stand upright when they walk? haha

[Saberstorm]

Poor DJ had four years of boot camp!

[Azure Flame]

6, actually. 2 of those were training outside of bootcamp, observational training mostly, with worse punishments.

[Ozz]

How to make an SLE cry:
Tell him to do something irrational and illogical else be punished. Wait for him to get angry then lecture him on how to behave properly, and have one on one conversations with all of the SLE's close friends on why you believe the SLE is mentally disturbed. Everytime the SLE speaks in his defense, inform him he is making excuses, and remove 1 day of his summer vacation.

Wow... I am reading this and I am speechless. How does one get out of this no-win situation? Just follow the illogical order? Start psychoanalyzing back them in return?

[Creepy-pikachu]

The secret would be realizing what you idealized self actually is.