View Poll Results: Richard Feynman's type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    2 50.00%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    1 25.00%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    1 25.00%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: Richard Feynman

  1. #1

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    Default Richard Feynman...

    ... some have said he was ENTP. I don't know about that.

    People explained his problem solving method as such. He wouldn't worry so much about the math behind it, but would try and tie the question to a real life problem. If the question did not make sense, he would often find out that it didn't line up with reality, and claim that the equation or whatever was wrong... he won the Noble Prize...

    This doesn't really sound Ti to me. It sounds like Te (well, this, plus he was said to be competative, that doesn't really sound like ENTp).

    Me thinks ENTj.




    quotes:

    We are at the very beginning of time for the human race. It is not unreasonable that we grapple with problems. But there are tens of thousands of years in the future. Our responsibility is to do what we can, learn what we can, improve the solutions, and pass them on.

    It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.

    The real problem in speech is not precise language. The problem is clear language. The desire is to have the idea clearly communicated to the other person. It is only necessary to be precise when there is some doubt as to the meaning of a phrase, and then the precision should be put in the place where the doubt exists. It is really quite impossible to say anything with absolute precision, unless that thing is so abstracted from the real world as to not represent any real thing.

    We are not to tell nature what she’s gotta be. … She's always got better imagination than we have.

    Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. ... Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers of the preceding generation.

    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.

    What I cannot create, I do not understand.

    Physics is to mathematics what sex is to masturbation.

    Each piece, or part, of the whole of nature is always merely an approximation to the complete truth, or the complete truth so far as we know it. In fact, everything we know is only some kind of approximation, because we know that we do not know all the laws as yet. Therefore, things must be learned only to be unlearned again or, more likely, to be corrected. … The test of all knowledge is experiment. Experiment is the sole judge of scientific “truth”.

    There is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. … It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty — a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid — not only what you think is right about it; other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked — to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

    We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science.

    Energy is a very subtle concept. It is very, very difficult to get right.

    Nature isn't classical, dammit, and if you want to make a simulation of nature, you'd better make it quantum mechanical, and by golly it's a wonderful problem, because it doesn't look so easy.

    There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers.

    Western civilization, it seems to me, stands by two great heritages. One is the scientific spirit of adventure — the adventure into the unknown, an unknown which must be recognized as being unknown in order to be explored; the demand that the unanswerable mysteries of the universe remain unanswered; the attitude that all is uncertain; to summarize it — the humility of the intellect. The other great heritage is Christian ethics — the basis of action on love, the brotherhood of all men, the value of the individual — the humility of the spirit.
    These two heritages are logically, thoroughly consistent. But logic is not all; one needs one's heart to follow an idea. If people are going back to religion, what are they going back to? Is the modern church a place to give comfort to a man who doubts God — more, one who disbelieves in God? Is the modern church a place to give comfort and encouragement to the value of such doubts? So far, have we not drawn strength and comfort to maintain the one or the other of these consistent heritages in a way which attacks the values of the other? Is this unavoidable? How can we draw inspiration to support these two pillars of western civilization so that they may stand together in full vigor, mutually unafraid? Is this not the central problem of our time?

    God was always invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you're taking away from God; you don't need him anymore. But you need him for the other mysteries. So therefore you leave him to create the universe because we haven't figured that out yet; you need him for understanding those things which you don't believe the laws will explain, such as consciousness, or why you only live to a certain length of time — life and death — stuff like that. God is always associated with those things that you do not understand. Therefore I don't think that the laws can be considered to be like God because they have been figured out.

    You say you are a nameless man. You are not to your wife and to your child. You will not long remain so to your immediate colleagues if you can answer their simple questions when they come into your office. You are not nameless to me. Do not remain nameless to yourself — it is too sad a way to be. Know your place in the world and evaluate yourself fairly, not in terms of the naïve ideals of your own youth, nor in terms of what you erroneously imagine your teacher's ideals are. - Letter to Koichi Mano (3 February 1966)








    Last edited by silke; 07-08-2017 at 10:21 AM. Reason: updated links
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    I've always thought ENTJ for Feynman too. It's interesting watching the different mentalities between physicists, which essentially boils down to vs. . Feynman took more the attitude of, "Models be damned, this is what the experiments show!" and reveled a lot in how contrary to common sense the experimental results of QM were/are. I think an ENTP would tend to be more model-dependent, and spend more time attempting to reconcile new experimental evidence with stable models/viewpoints that were held before. Again this is contrast to Feynman, who would have pretty much said, "So what? Maybe everything we thought we knew is wrong and this is what reality is like."
    My thoughts exactly.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  3. #3

    Default

    I believe Feynman was the guy who coined the phrase that an idea can be so bad that it's not even wrong which sounds like the type of comment an ENTJ might use to counter the kind of "pie in the sky" thinking an extroverted intuitive might be prone to. I have an ENTj acquaintance who loves discussing various scientific breakthroughs and theories he reads in science magazines and science-fiction, but I notice he talks a lot about how he can invent with them since he is always inventing zany and bizarre things like artificial venus fly-traps that do sadistic things to flies, robots that fetch snacks out of the fridge, and lawn equipment that uses environmentally friendly engines. He's always trying to pitch the business case for these things. He'll talk about far out concepts, but usually only in the sense in how they can be implemented in the real world through technology. Discussing the theory for the sake of the theory without application seems not to be his particular interest. I always thoroughly enjoy speaking with him since he has this groundedness about him but also possesses a quick wit and creativity.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    I've always thought ENTJ for Feynman too. It's interesting watching the different mentalities between physicists, which essentially boils down to vs. . Feynman took more the attitude of, "Models be damned, this is what the experiments show!" and reveled a lot in how contrary to common sense the experimental results of QM were/are. I think an ENTP would tend to be more model-dependent, and spend more time attempting to reconcile new experimental evidence with stable models/viewpoints that were held before. Again this is contrast to Feynman, who would have pretty much said, "So what? Maybe everything we thought we knew is wrong and this is what reality is like."
    First of all: my personal take on his type is still undecided. Some time ago I took interest in this question, but the evidence was inconclusive; I'm going to post later some excerpt from a famous lecture.

    Anyway, An ENTP is a memeber of the Alpha quadra, and an Extraverted Intuitive, and he's the type known as to be the one least interested in upholding society's morals. Therefore your argument supports exactly the opposite conclusion

    Rocky: Feynman upheld, developed and supported a theory of time travel. How's that for absolute alignment to reality?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I tend to agree with most people's result but most arguments are shitty. (At least as a creative functions) is as well understood on this forum as was a year ago. By using bad interpretations of as facts, you guys will only create a paradox. No offense BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    would try and tie the question to a real life problem. If the question did not make sense, he would often find out that it didn't line up with reality, and claim that the equation or whatever was wrong... he won the Noble Prize...

    This doesn't really sound Ti to me. It sounds like Te (well, this, plus he was said to be competative, that doesn't really sound like ENTP).
    Why would ENTP hold on to a model that doesn't work in real life? Ti makes models and categorizations that are changing fluently, at least if it's a creative function subordinated to Ne, I think. I believe the goal of ENTP scientist would be a functioning model. ENTP wouldn't respect the earlier mathematical models too much, if they seem incompatible with new results/ideas which seem reliable.

    The ENTPs I know are quite competitive. I go for the win in all sports and games, I want to do a good job compared to my colleagues etc.

    Feynman might well be ENTJ, but does this sound more like ENTP or ENTJ:
    "He took up painting at one time and enjoyed some success under the pseudonym "Ofey", culminating in an exhibition dedicated to his work. While at Los Alamos on the Top Secret Manhattan Project, he earned the notoriety of being a master safe-cracker. He learned to play drums (frigideira) in acceptable samba style in Brazil by persistence and practice, and participated in a samba school. Feynman even translated Mayan hieroglyphics. Such actions earned him a reputation of eccentricity.

    According to Genius, the James Gleick biography, Richard Feynman experimented with LSD during his professorship at Caltech."
    ENTP

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Anyway, An ENTP is a memeber of the Alpha quadra, and an Extraverted Intuitive, and he's the type known as to be the one least interested in upholding society's morals. Therefore your argument supports exactly the opposite conclusion
    I disagree with this...

    Rocky: Feynman upheld, developed and supported a theory of time travel. How's that for absolute alignment to reality?
    ... are ENTJs absolutely lined up with reality? I was going more with, he didn't get "stuck" within the established models or math as much, not that he was entirely realistic.

    If Feynman was Ti... then everyone's view of Ti on this board is probably wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    If Feynman was Ti... then everyone's view of Ti on this board is probably wrong.
    It is mostly, though i think ENTj for Feynman is plausible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detail
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    If Feynman was Ti... then everyone's view of Ti on this board is probably wrong.
    It is mostly, though i think ENTj for Feynman is plausible.
    Fine, then tell me how it'd be different... a couple Ti types like Mystic have complained as well, but haven't given an alternative view... just explain how Ti would think similarly to the way someone like Feynman would. Or just give a better definition of how Ti works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    just explain how Ti would think similarly to the way someone like Feynman would.
    Here's what i identify with, for example:

    He wouldn't worry so much about the math behind it, but would try and tie the question to a real life problem. If the question did not make sense, he would often find out that it didn't line up with reality, and claim that the equation or whatever was wrong
    he was said to be competative
    Feynman took more the attitude of, "Models be damned, this is what the experiments show!"
    "So what? Maybe everything we thought we knew is wrong and this is what reality is like."
    A binary concept i think E*Tps are familiar with is the concept of "compatible/incompatible with reality" because while they are interested in both, they get to learn where to draw the line (Fairly young in some cases) and how to use both concepts. At least from my observations. Maybe your abstract model tells you otherwise though.

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    Another curious detail about Feynman is that he was a famous woman chaser (after his wife died). In a book I read about him it said that his hosts at different events invariably would introduce him to some women, and that he would charm them, take them dancing (he was a great dancer), treat them well, sleep with them for a few days, and then leave them when business took him elsewhere. He was very gallant, and women liked him a lot, even if they couldn't keep him for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detail
    he was said to be competative
    Something I heard about him, don't remember where, was something along the lines of he'd only work, or have the enthusiasm to work, if he knew another scientist was working at the same time. THen he'd quite being lazy, and accomplish a bunch of stuff. This sounds ENTJ to me.

    I've known a number of ENTPs, and yes, you can doubt whether or not they really were what I claim, but we all can do that here, so just go with it for know, and the often didn't worry about this kind of stuff. One of my ENTP friends, who I've know for basically my whole life, was like this. I swear to god, I've asked him in the past things like, "Did you get your grades yet?" (school), and he'd answer, "Yeah, but I haven't opened them yet". This type of thing is mindboggling to me. And it's not like he was a bad student and didn't make to see the grades; just didn't care. He was also oblivious when he was going to start college, didn't know what classes he had to take, how many credits he had, when classes started, etc...

    I see this as an ENTP trait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    If I'm correctly reading what dynamicism and Rocky are saying, it sounds like ENTp's are slow to want to take on new information and are stuck to yesterday's news.
    In my mind, Te= more and more and more information, Ti= closed off, wanting as little information as possible to get by.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Another curious detail about Feynman is that he was a famous woman chaser (after his wife died). In a book I read about him it said that his hosts at different events invariably would introduce him to some women, and that he would charm them, take them dancing (he was a great dancer), treat them well, sleep with them for a few days, and then leave them when business took him elsewhere. He was very gallant, and women liked him a lot, even if they couldn't keep him for long.
    This has little to do with type.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I didn't say it was , but it was a prominent trait of his.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    If I'm correctly reading what dynamicism and Rocky are saying, it sounds like ENTp's are slow to want to take on new information and are stuck to yesterday's news.
    In my mind, Te= more and more and more information, Ti= closed off, wanting as little information as possible to get by.
    Then why is your worldview so tiny?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    I'm not saying ENTps are S...L...O...W on the uptake of new information - but an ENTj will be faster at it
    This largely independant from type, and besides I see no motivation for this assertion.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    I'm not saying ENTps are S...L...O...W on the uptake of new information - but an ENTj will be faster at it
    Duh, this largely independant from type, and besides I see no motivation for this assertion.
    Sounds like bullshit at its finest to me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    It's a general trend I've observed and I would assert that it's not type independent and that there are indeed typological (Socionics) influences that play a role in encouraging this sort of disposition. However, while I stand by my claim, I have no means to prove this to you so in the context of this conversation I'm not going to debate it.
    Good call. Thank you for being reasonable and not making unnecessary assertions; it's an improvement
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    @Ashton: yes but we both know the concept (type) is too limited to describe potential correlations noted so we need not phrase our responses to it as though we view it as substantial. we should respond to it from outside of its point of reference

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Good call. Thank you for being reasonable and not making unnecessary assertions; it's an improvement
    Cool, maybe you can follow my lead sometime. :wink:
    I'm working on it.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    If I'm correctly reading what dynamicism and Rocky are saying, it sounds like ENTp's are slow to want to take on new information and are stuck to yesterday's news.
    In my mind, Te= more and more and more information, Ti= closed off, wanting as little information as possible to get by.
    Then why is your worldview so tiny?
    I'm an Introvert.

    If anything, Te comes out slower in IxTPs than ExTJs... but I find ExTJs the ultimate in terms of amount of information. The Te is still there, but to save energy, the number of interests is still less than ExTJ... think of Ganin's ISTP "Uncovered", I still think that's a good example of Te. It's hard to explain, since there's a pull from the more prefer Introverted state, to the Te, "Fuck, I have to be good at and know everything about this" state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Just for the record, I've noticed and commented in the past about the fact that some Socionics sites show Feynman as ENTj. It's MBTI sites that consistently call him ENTP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Some correlations, though not at all. I think the bulk of this discussion fits well within the domain of type as an acceptable background for reasoning the cases that are being made (Feynman being ENTj, etc.).
    Sometimes I get the impression that you have experienced so little of what it means to be human that you truely believe this

    /edit

    that was more "provoking" than I intended it to be. no slight intended just a nudge toward the craziness :wink:

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    Fryman is obviously INFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Sometimes I get the impression that you have experienced so little of what it means to be human that you truely believe this

    /edit

    that was more "provoking" than I intended it to be. no slight intended just a nudge toward the craziness :wink:
    Hah, no. I'm just trying to be optimistic in that some of our theories can at least encompass a minute sliver of what it means to be human. And perhaps some of the marked general trends. I make no absolutist claims. But discourse of this nature, as you well know and have discussed at length, is limited and hence can remain unclear despite the most painstaking attempts otherwise.

    Have you read the book, "Programming the Human Biocomputer" by John C. Lilly? I picked it up on a whim last week and I think you might find some of what it has to say to be interesting.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157...lance&n=283155
    HERE, HERE! MERRIMENT!!!

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    bump!

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    Bump!
    Video
    https://www.ted.com/talks/richard_feynman

    I think Feynman had a very imaginative Si. Mathematical formulations and concepts are merely a tool for him. Could he be a very peculiar SLI? He gives very concrete examples without lots of concepts. He tries to "empathize" with objects. Generates situations where he imagines himself in it. I'm amazed at his capability to immerse himself in a specific situation and its dynamics. Temporal aspects of dynamics are rather limited (Ni role?).
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 10-20-2015 at 07:23 PM.

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    H-ILE-Ne 7w6-2w1-1w9
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    He is not a very dramatic person. His relation to life is very deltaish. Beta!?!?! IEE? That would explain his strange indulgence in Si experience accompanied with Fi and Te. There is a very clear Fi bent in his speech.
    Just listen how he is trying to put himself in shoes of rubber bands and molecules.
    How come he is Ti valuing? Understanding things in perspective of objects clearly trumps theory. Very peculiar Ti PoLR manifestation nonetheless (maybe it is that he has very little place for rules ).
    Reading more about him it seems that his sensing was not his strongest suite. I see same aspects of it in myself. Maybe duals become more a like when they age (at least it has happened to me). He became a scientist because his father encouraged him to take that path throughout his childhood. I don't see Fe PoLR.

    Delta NFs are not poor at science when they have gotten support for it. I have seen EII mathematician. They all have weird ability imagine themselves to be vectors or something. He was very generous with his grading unlike LIIs.
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 10-20-2015 at 09:25 PM.

  30. #30
    Tigerfadder's Avatar
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    Im watching this for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyqleIxXTpw
    First idea got from someone else is LSE, second one is ILE. Third one is probably LIE. No beta haha.

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