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Thread: How does subtype affect Reinin Dichotomies?

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    Default How does subtype affect Reinin Dichotomies?

    Since the Reinin dichotomies are based on 16 types, which subtype are they supposed to correspond to (accepting or producing)? And how would the other subtype that it's not based on change the Reinin dichotomies?

    What I'm thinking
    an ILI-Ni would spend more energy on their HA, as if able to swap with the Leading. This would contradict the prerequisites many of the dichotomies are based on.
    an ILI-Te would have a much more balanced function ordering, one that seems to fit all the Reinin prerequisites.

    I'm then tentatively "assuming" the Reinin stuff is based on the producing subtype and is axiomatic to it. But what would you say and why?

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    From what I've seen, subtype doesn't affect Reinin dichotomies at all. I humored the notion that creative subtypes would take on superficial appearances of their mirror's differing dichotomies, which would be basically everything excluding static/dynamic, merry/serious, judicious/decisive, aristocratic/democratic, and asking/declaring. Upon observing others, as well as myself, to see if this theory holds up, I just don't see any differences there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    From what I've seen, subtype doesn't affect Reinin dichotomies at all.
    Galen, not to pick on you but that cannot be right. If you believe "subtype" and "Reinin dichotomies" are useful construct, then they necessarily affect each other. Reinin dichotomies go in "waves" that tend to peak either at a given type, or at a given quadra-separation (say, merry peaks at the border between Alpha and Beta quadra).

    So, it has to generally be that creative subtypes in rationals are nearer to the values of their "preceeding" quadra, while the opposite is true for irrationals. Ofc this phenomenon would only be visibile in rather extreme versions of each subtype.
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    I think the R-Ds should be fairly constant. How can one waver at being obstinate? Statics should have a certain dullness in their immediate appreciation of change, but a sharp grasp of what they specifically choose to assign a static value to. All this should be fairly constant.

    The creative subtype I do not think acts like their mirror. They instead "reach out into the world" with their producing functions while remaining whatever their core type is.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Galen, not to pick on you but that cannot be right. If you believe "subtype" and "Reinin dichotomies" are useful construct, then they necessarily affect each other. Reinin dichotomies go in "waves" that tend to peak either at a given type, or at a given quadra-separation (say, merry peaks at the border between Alpha and Beta quadra).
    How does this happen? I've never observed any such sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So, it has to generally be that creative subtypes in rationals are nearer to the values of their "preceeding" quadra, while the opposite is true for irrationals. Ofc this phenomenon would only be visibile in rather extreme versions of each subtype.
    There are many more Reinin dichotomies than merry/serious and judicious/decisive, and if subtype were to play any effect in these dichotomies then it would have to effect all of them in some way. Fi-subtype ENFps don't suddenly become less judicious simply because of a more Fi-oriented mindset, at least not from what I've seen.
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    Yes they do, when compared to very Ne ENFps. They will, for example, care more about the worldwide impact of the causes they decide to endorse, while ENFp-Ne will be happier to toy with theoretical ideas and models.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes they do, when compared to very Ne ENFps. They will, for example, care more about the worldwide impact of the causes they decide to endorse, while ENFp-Ne will be happier to toy with theoretical ideas and models.
    And how does this make either one more or less judicious or decisive, merry or serious, etc?
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    Unfortunetly did not understand much of the topic. Just want to say briefly how it is in my approach. Rreinin dychotomies like static - dynamic is a basic one togehter with extro-intro and ratio-irratio.
    What the tests show that there are certain possibilities for subtypes, for ENFP for example: ENFJ -if the extroversion is very strong from the 3 basic dychotomies; INFP - if the irrationality is very strong from all three dychotomies; INFJ - if the statics is the strongest.
    What exactly you are talking about?
    Before and even now some people differentiate just by the first two function fro the Ego block of model A. Which is in fact very primtive way to decide upin the type but it works. And it does relate well with the theory. If the NE is leading - you will see an extrovert and this means subtype ENFJ. If you will see ENFP as ore introverted type - that could be either INFJ or INFP -sybtype.

    And you understand that this subtypes come either from Ego-, Superego- or Superid TPE. Does it make sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga View Post
    Does it make sense?
    No, not really. Jung defined eight functions and talked about them, with the creative function (and HA) as complementary, but not nearly as important. He was describing one-sided personalities as a way to help people better understand themselves. Because of this, he also talks a little about how a type utilizes their inferior (suggestive) function by utilizing the creative (combination of rationality and irrationality); and how using one's leading function, implies using one's HA as well. An extroverted person becomes more balanced (and hopefully fulfilled) by becoming more introverted and an introverted person more extroverted. I don't think it should be hard to understand that someone who is say irrational Ne-leading can also have a focus on either rational Te or Fe that supplements it.
    So because his focus wasn't on describing two functions to make a type, but one as an all-encompassing extreme in a person, one could talk about people who are more balanced between extroversion and introversion and those who aren't - two subtypes.

    So, socionics has ideas of PoLR, superego, ego, etc. that explain function ordering and strength that requires the creative function to be significant. In a way, I think this is something socionics extends on from Jung and produces its own unique and valid ideas from it. It makes sense then that socionics wouldn't focus on one function making up a person, but two. And I think that's relatively true, as those who think they fit creative subtypes seem to agree that the dichotomies fit them.

    But because of this, someone who is highly introverted or extroverted has a much stronger HA focus and probably not much of a PoLR either, since they don't produce anything to create that vulnerability or weakness. So I was wondering then, if someone is either strongly introverted or strongly extroverted, if they would swap some dichotomies, mainly evaluatory/situational dichotomies with their activity partner, and be somewhat in-between on things.
    As someone that doesn't fit that well into socionics, but knows what Jungian functions I relate to, this seems true to me. In a way, I'm guessing most people who find socionics insightful without too much questioning are producing subtypes then, since the accepting subtypes might not find socionics as describing them? whereas Jung probably does a better job.
    Last edited by strangeling; 11-29-2012 at 02:43 AM. Reason: i meant evaluatory/situational, not inert/contact, whoops

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    Tackk, what does it mean HA?
    Did not understand much but I will look into your post very carefully and ask question - not to miss on anything. I would be greatful if you or anybody will be very concrete in the wording and tell me exactly where you agree or disagree with me and why. It will help me better and quicker to understand your point.
    The problem is that we all have different baggage of knowledge and do assumptions which may be not quite what the author means. That is why it is very important to make sure that we understand each other right.
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    HA -> Hidden Agenda

    If what I said doesn't stand out to you, maybe it's best to forget about it. Sometimes I think about stuff for the sake of trying to understand and end up regretting it later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    And how does this make either one more or less judicious or decisive, merry or serious, etc?
    The two examples are pretty much clear real-life applications of a resolute-judicious difference...

    merry and serious distiction should not be noticeable, since it's a large cycle dichotomy whose "peak" is on the other side of the socion (transition from alpha to beta).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    No, not really. Jung defined eight functions and talked about them, with the creative function (and HA) as complementary, but not nearly as important. He was describing one-sided personalities as a way to help people better understand themselves. Because of this, he also talks a little about how a type utilizes their inferior (suggestive) function by utilizing the creative (combination of rationality and irrationality); and how using one's leading function, implies using one's HA as well. An extroverted person becomes more balanced (and hopefully fulfilled) by becoming more introverted and an introverted person more extroverted. I don't think it should be hard to understand that someone who is say irrational Ne-leading can also have a focus on either rational Te or Fe that supplements it.
    Do you want to say that sybtypes can be defined by the strength of any function among the 8? You are talking about the approach to define subtypes like in Gulenko theory?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    So because his focus wasn't on describing two functions to make a type, but one as an all-encompassing extreme in a person, one could talk about people who are more balanced between extroversion and introversion and those who aren't - two subtypes.
    If the person is balalnced on extro - intro, then there will be disbalance somewhere else, something will be too much or too little. The disbalance will be important for subtype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    So, socionics has ideas of PoLR, superego, ego, etc. that explain function ordering and strength that requires the creative function to be significant. In a way, I think this is something socionics extends on from Jung and produces its own unique and valid ideas from it. It makes sense then that socionics wouldn't focus on one function making up a person, but two. And I think that's relatively true, as those who think they fit creative subtypes seem to agree that the dichotomies fit them
    I do not understand the last sentence - how the talk about two functions relate to agreeig with creative subtype? Are you IEE?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    But because of this, someone who is highly introverted or extroverted has a much stronger HA focus and probably not much of a PoLR either, since they don't produce anything to create that vulnerability or weakness. So I was wondering then, if someone is either strongly introverted or strongly extroverted, if they would swap some dichotomies, mainly evaluatory/situational dichotomies with their activity partner, and be somewhat in-between on things.
    I am a bit confused: hidden agenda and PoLR - is it the same function - the pain function (4)? How being highly introverted or extraverted relates to PoLR ? Very strong focuse on the pain function usually means psychological problem and disbalance.


    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    As someone that doesn't fit that well into socionics, but knows what Jungian functions I relate to, this seems true to me. In a way, I'm guessing most people who find socionics insightful without too much questioning are producing subtypes then, since the accepting subtypes might not find socionics as describing them? whereas Jung probably does a better job.
    It must be my fault that I do not have the background knowledge which you have - I coud not understand much. I think you have strong intuition and abstract thought, could be irrationality as well?
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    I don't think subtypes have any effect on renin as most dichotomies are derived on a 'block by block' basis.

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