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    Default synchronicity

    to me its an interesting concept that i don't really know what to make of or how to wrap my head around exactly.
    so i'm curious what you guys have to say about it.
    i'm not sure if jung meant it as something mystical or if its just a fancy name for coincidence, or what?

    Synchronicity is the experience of two or more events that are apparently causally unrelated or unlikely to occur together by chance, yet are experienced as occurring together in a meaningful manner. The concept of synchronicity was first described in this terminology by Carl Gustav Jung, a Swiss psychologist, in the 1920s.[1]

    The concept does not question, or compete with, the notion of causality. Instead it maintains that, just as events may be grouped by cause, they may also be grouped by meaning. A grouping of events by meaning need not have an explanation in terms of cause and effect.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity


    This concept was inspired to him by a patient's case that was in situation of impasse in treatment. Her exaggerate rationalism (animus inflation) was holding her back from assimilating unconscious materials. One night, the patient dreamt a golden scarab - cetonia aurata. The next day, during the psychotherapy session, a real insect this time, hit against the Jung's cabinet window. Jung caught it and discovered surprisingly that it was a golden scarab; a very rare presence for that climate.

    So, the idea is all about coincidence: in this case, between the scarab dreamt by the patient and its appearance in reality, in the psychotherapy cabinet.
    http://www.carl-jung.net/synchronicity.html

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    You should read the book; it goes into a lot more detail and has some pretty insane/unbelievable stories in it.

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    Many people might say that it's bullshit but they don't see that synchronicity is an experience, not a mystical theory that criticizes causality.

    I once met this girl in a park drinking beer. I joined her and had a nice chat with her. She showed me a game where you twist the opener thingy in the can lid of a beer can back and forth. When you do this you recite the alphabet until the opener thingy in the lid breaks. The letter which you were on is the first letter of the first name of your next lover. I got the initial letter of her first name. Soon after we started dating.

    Did I objectively believe that the can showed us our fate? No.
    Do I enjoy this silly thing that happened and did it give nice flavor to our relationship? Hell yeah.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa Bob View Post
    You should read the book; it goes into a lot more detail and has some pretty insane/unbelievable stories in it.
    what book? i came across the word reading man and his symbols.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Many people might say that it's bullshit but they don't see that synchronicity is an experience, not a mystical theory that criticizes causality.

    I once met this girl in a park drinking beer. I joined her and had a nice chat with her. She showed me a game where you twist the opener thingy in the can lid of a beer can back and forth. When you do this you recite the alphabet until the opener thingy in the lid breaks. The letter which you were on is the first letter of the first name of your next lover. I got the initial letter of her first name. Soon after we started dating.

    Did I objectively believe that the can showed us our fate? No.
    Do I enjoy this silly thing that happened and did it give nice flavor to our relationship? Hell yeah.
    i like that. that's how i'm inclined to interpret the idea, too. but i wasn't sure if that was what jung intended or how its widely understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    what book? i came across the word reading man and his symbols.
    .
    it's in The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche

    http://www.amazon.com/Synchronicity-Connecting-Principle-Collected-Bollingen/dp/0691150508/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353428968&sr=8-2&keywords=synchronicity



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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i like that.[...]
    Yes, yes, I get a notification everytime you do lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    ...She showed me a game where you twist the opener thingy in the can lid of a beer can back and forth.
    Apparently there's a word for it in the English language! They're called stay tabs.
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    +1 for synchronicity as an experience rather than an actual factual reference or source of real information.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    +1 for synchronicity as a magical land with unicorns and James Blunt that I can never get to on purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    to me its an interesting concept that i don't really know what to make of or how to wrap my head around exactly.
    so i'm curious what you guys have to say about it.
    i'm not sure if jung meant it as something mystical or if its just a fancy name for coincidence, or what?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity
    http://www.carl-jung.net/synchronicity.html
    It doesn't call the direction of causality into doubt AT ALL. It doesn't point out magically that we should date someone. It is the quality of separate events resembling each other AT THE SAME TIME without having been caused by or causing each other. Syn + chronos +ity = "with, together, united"*+"time"**+"quality or state"* For instance, if you are a twin and you have twins because of the same genes for twins, your babies WERE affected by your genes, and this is NOT SYNCHRONICITY because your genetics contributed. Conversely, if you are a twin and you meet someone who is ALSO a twin, you are in a synchronicitous situation because you are independently experiencing the same state at the same time.

    I describe it by saying that because there is a universe with certain, and therefore limiting, characteristics (even if only slightly limited, like 'we all experience gravity or its absence') , the beings inside this universe experience these characteristics of their universe and can pick up on the pattern of the other beings experiencing them, too. I love that synchronicity is recognized and named. it's one of my favorite concepts. *http://www.macroevolution.net/medical-suffixes-h-j.html **Wikipedia.org
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    Where can I get the Jung Bible oh and nice post, nanashi. Gammas ought to be proud.
    Last edited by Absurd; 11-20-2012 at 06:59 PM.

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    People tend to notice those things that they're already thinking about and draw connections between them. The whole "I bought a red car, and now there are red cars everywhere!" concept that is familiar to most people. You mind tunes into those things that are already occupying it, giving it fodder for connections

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    People tend to notice those things that they're already thinking about and draw connections between them. The whole "I bought a red car, and now there are red cars everywhere!" concept that is familiar to most people. You mind tunes into those things that are already occupying it, giving it fodder for connections
    so observing synchronicity can be useful for self-awareness. ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    so observing synchronicity can be useful for self-awareness. ?
    Squirrel!

    Hugely imo. I use divination in this way.

    I found this in an article here: Another physicist who takes synchronicity seriously is F. David Peat. Peat believes that Jungian-type synchronicities are not only real, but offer further evidence of the implicate order. As we have seen, according to Bohm the apparent separateness of consciousness and matter is an illusion, an artifact that occurs only after both have unfolded into the explicate world of objects and sequential time. If there is no division between mind and matter in the implicate, the ground from which all things spring, then it is not unusual to expect that reality might be shot through with traces of this deep connectivity. Peat believes that synchronicities are therefore "flaws" in the fabric of reality, momentary fissures that allow us a brief glimpse of the immense and unitary order underlying all of nature.

    Put another way, Peat thinks that synchronicities reveal the absence of division between the physical world and our inner psychological reality. Thus the relative scarcity of synchronous experiences in our lives shows not only the extent to which we have fragmented ourselves from the general field of consciousness, but also the degree to which we have sealed ourselves off from the infinite and dazzling potential of the deeper orders of mind and reality. According to Peat, when we experience a synchronicity, what we are really experiencing "is the human mind operating, for a moment, in its true order and extending throughout society and nature, moving through orders of increasing subtlety, reaching past the source of mind and matter into creativity itself." This is an astounding notion. Virtually all of our commonsense prejudices about the world are based on the premise that subjective and objective reality are very much separate. That is why synchronicities seem so baffling and inexplicable to us. But if there is ultimately no division between the physical world and our inner psychological processes, then we must be prepared to change more than just our commonsense understanding of the universe, for the implications are staggering.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    so observing synchronicity can be useful for self-awareness. ?
    yeah, it can be.

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    I'm not sure how to bite it, but this is not what I knew under synchronicity, in fact, that article squirrel posted is more towards the direction synchronicty takes and occupies itself with, Second Law of Entropy for instance. And as far that wiki page lung's quoted it is non-casual.

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    Synchronicity is the principle assumed to stand behind coincidences. Coincidences per se are just arbitrary, but synchronicity tells that there is something out there connecting the two or more events, not just chance. I think - and it's reasonable to believe so - that there is no way to tell what is merely a coincidence and what is synchronous events, so each one believes what their intuition tells them.

    I for one am a believer in synchronicity, since I myself performed magic before, which is IMO the same thing - one's action coincide with the expected magical result, it could be as well considered a coincidence [1]. My way of determining what is a coincidence and what is not is a feeling of too improbable/amost impossible, when the odds for it to happen are very low. In my most representative case I was fortunate enough to be able to weight the odds: around 1/14000 - which to me is virtually impossible to happen in one try.
    ---

    [1] - there is an apparent possible contrary argument (alternative explanation): prediction due to extrasensory perception - your will would fit what would have happened anyway. However in some cases this can be debunked: in my case someone else came with the symbol/idea, then the magic was performed, then its result took shape. Now, this result was "coincidentally" related to that idea from that person, which in turn was found in his then recent experience, so it basically was not generated in this person's head, but came from outside. Again, these causally-independent occurances were meaningfully connected.
    Last edited by The Ineffable; 12-12-2012 at 10:06 AM.
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    Synchronicity is a synonym for coincidence. The only difference is that the former denotes a coincidence where casual phenomena is reduced to something outside the control of, and dependent upon the consciousness of, the subjective observer. But, since coincidence- to find something coincidental- is already dependent upon ones subjective experience of casually occurring phenomena, "synchronicity" lends itself to a superfluous existence.
    Last edited by Red Villain; 12-14-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    Synchronicity is the principle assumed to stand behind coincidences. Coincidences per se are just arbitrary, but synchronicity tells that there is something out there connecting the two or more events, not just chance. I think - and it's reasonable to believe so - that there is no way to tell what is merely a coincidence and what is synchronous events, so each one believes what their intuition tells them.

    I for one am a believer in synchronicity, since I myself performed magic before, which is IMO the same thing - one's action coincide with the expected magical result, it could be as well considered a coincidence [1]. My way of determining what is a coincidence and what is not is a feeling of too improbable/amost impossible, when the odds for it to happen are very low. In my most representative case I was fortunate enough to be able to weight the odds: around 1/14000 - which to me is virtually impossible to happen in one try.
    ---

    [1] - there is an apparent possible contrary argument (alternative explanation): prediction due to extrasensory perception - your will would fit what would have happened anyway. However in some cases this can be debunked: in my case someone else came with the symbol/idea, then the magic was performed, then its result took shape. Now, this result was "coincidentally" related to that idea from that person, which in turn was found in his then recent experience, so it basically was not generated in this person's head, but came from outside. Again, these causally-independent occurances were meaningfully connected.
    You're fucking retarded.

    First off, coincidences are not arbitrary; "coincidence" is a term used to describe the occurrence of two or several casual, and seemingly unrelated, phenomena experienced at the same time, and where the observer realizes a new relationship actually existing between them. But since the content of a coincidence is of physical phenomena, and since all reality is governed by the law of action-reaction (with the exception of special-relativity), it follows that calling anything "arbitrary" simply expresses that either the real cause behind a phenomena is outside the comprehension and experience of the observer, or that the cause behind some effect produces unintended results with every repetition. This coincidentally (no pun intended) brings me to my next point...

    Secondly, the only thing synchronicity (actually Jung) tells us is that coincidence can be relative to the observer; "no shit", it's a fucking tautology. What really connects phenomena is not our ability to experience such connections, or our subjective dispositions about these connections, but through the fact that all phenomena is composed of matter and that matter is governed by definite laws; even the brain, that vapid dolts like you waste on trying to assert the existence of magic, is composed of matter and thus governed by these very same laws. The reason there is no way to distinguish synchronicity from causality is because they are one in the same in regards to experiencing seemingly unlikely or impossible phenomena; the latter merely swaps an unknown objective cause for a subjective one.

    Why not use your magic to conjure some intellect, or use your extrasensory perception to project yourself to the nearest bookstore?
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    may possibly be indicative of holographic model of reality and/or retrocausality imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    You're fucking retarded.

    First off, coincidences are not arbitrary; "coincidence" is a term used to describe the occurrence of two or several casual, and seemingly unrelated, phenomena experienced at the same time, and where the observer realizes a new relationship actually existing between them. But since the content of a coincidence is of physical phenomena, and since all reality is governed by the law of action-reaction (with the exception of special-relativity), it follows that calling anything "arbitrary" simply expresses that either the real cause behind a phenomena is outside the comprehension and experience of the observer, or that the cause behind some effect produces unintended results with every repetition. This coincidentally (no pun intended) brings me to my next point...
    Sorry dude, when I said "arbitrary" I meant due to chance, random. No need to be pedantic about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    Secondly, the only thing synchronicity (actually Jung) tells us is that coincidence can be relative to the observer; "no shit", it's a fucking tautology. What really connects phenomena is not our ability to experience such connections, or our subjective dispositions about these connections, but through the fact that all phenomena is composed of matter and that matter is governed by definite laws; even the brain, that vapid dolts like you waste on trying to assert the existence of magic, is composed of matter and thus governed by these very same laws. The reason there is no way to distinguish synchronicity from causality is because they are one in the same in regards to experiencing seemingly unlikely or impossible phenomena; the latter merely swaps an unknown objective cause for a subjective one.
    I'm not sure you will understand, having that you are that confused and a fanatic of the religion called Scientism which makes you dismiss my statements based on your ad hominem disqualification. If you continue to do that, then go fuck yourself. Meantime, I will try to explain:

    The connection between two or more events of this nature is subjective, is human, has nothing inherently to do with causality or the laws of physics. It's all about *meaning* which is purely subjective, it requires a conscience to exist. If you drop by mistake several scrabble chips and they settle on the ground forming your name, that objectively means nothing but some chips on the ground. This is where your confusion comes from, you have not clearly disctinguished the objective and subjective aspects of events. In the latter case, the cause is irrelevant. In the former, you simply don't pay attention to the meaning of the letters.

    Now, talking about meaningful events - and this is the topic here - you can either believe that they occured accidentally, which makes the occurance a "coincidence", or think of it as having behind some sort of principle (outside any human action) that connects this meaning to the physical world, the causality, which synchronicity does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Villain View Post
    Synchronicity is a synonym for coincidence. The only difference is that the former denotes a coincidence where casual phenomena is reduced to something outside the control of, and dependent upon the consciousness of, the subjective observer. But, since coincidence- to find something coincidental- is already dependent upon ones subjective experience of casually occurring phenomena, "synchronicity" lends itself to a superfluous existence.
    Wrong. The identification as both depends on the consciousness of the observer, at the same time not being the same thing. What distinguishes them is that in the case of coincidence it is chance assumed to stand behind the meaningful outcome, while in the case of synchronicity there exists some sort of teleological "force" that manifests that way.
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    Is there a point to this word, other than in science and whatnot? It doesnt seem like a useful concept to care about, but I dont track alien sightings either.

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    Everything Jung has said/wrote dealt with mysticism and the occult, lungs. You can even find people in the occult that do not agree with some of his works if you search for it.

    Not only does he rest on Blavatsky, but goes for Kabbalah, Neoplatonism and the like. Interestingly, that peaceful fellow that branded himself pacifist in India, and allegedly, fought for India's freedom and independence, did so as well.

    Synchronicity?

    Hmm, I think Aushra licked some of it too, but that's another topic...
    Last edited by Absurd; 12-14-2012 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    Is there a point to this word, other than in science and whatnot? It doesnt seem like a useful concept to care about, but I dont track alien sightings either.
    that's kinda what i was trying to figure out with this thread, and i found squark's post most helpful in that regard.

    i think the basic gist is that you can analyze the meaningful coincidences you come across for clues about your own internal state, in a similar way that you can analyze your dreams.

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    i've been thinking it amounts to little more than this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

    when you can decide the criterion for what counts as a coincidence after the event, coincidences turn out to be very commonplace things.

    the crucial distinction is between:
    specific coincidence - very uncommon
    any coincidence - very common

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    that's kinda what i was trying to figure out with this thread, and i found squark's post most helpful in that regard.

    i think the basic gist is that you can analyze the meaningful coincidences you come across for clues about your own internal state, in a similar way that you can analyze your dreams.
    Squark is my hero.

    I think we can find patterns in our states, yes, but I dont think it needs a theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    It doesn't call the direction of causality into doubt AT ALL. It doesn't point out magically that we should date someone. It is the quality of separate events resembling each other AT THE SAME TIME without having been caused by or causing each other. Syn + chronos +ity = "with, together, united"*+"time"**+"quality or state"* For instance, if you are a twin and you have twins because of the same genes for twins, your babies WERE affected by your genes, and this is NOT SYNCHRONICITY because your genetics contributed. Conversely, if you are a twin and you meet someone who is ALSO a twin, you are in a synchronicitous situation because you are independently experiencing the same state at the same time.

    I describe it by saying that because there is a universe with certain, and therefore limiting, characteristics (even if only slightly limited, like 'we all experience gravity or its absence') , the beings inside this universe experience these characteristics of their universe and can pick up on the pattern of the other beings experiencing them, too. I love that synchronicity is recognized and named. it's one of my favorite concepts. *http://www.macroevolution.net/medical-suffixes-h-j.html **Wikipedia.org
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    Quote Originally Posted by labster View Post
    i've been thinking it amounts to little more than this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
    Always a good read, even for someone who is already accustomed to the fallacy.

    However they use to interpret Nostradamus, I once read such one (an interpretation) which concluded that skyscrapers in New York would allegedly be assaulted with rockets - which sounded improbable but in that same text, IIRC, it was linked to the unrest in the Middle East. This brochure was printed in 1994. I think in this case, it is not a fallacy to connect to the events, first because it was an actual and pretty precise interpretation, second because it occured before the events. I don't remember what predictions were speculated by the author of the brochure - if any - and which were taken from Orson Welles, neither where the link to Middle East was made (if it was in the same context with the New York assault), but if I find that brochure again I could find out.

    Edit: IIRC it was speculated to be New York the city with mountains made of man and "at 45 steps" - interpreted as degrees N.

    Edit 1:
    "Cinq & quarante degrez ciel bruslera,
    Feu approcher de la grand cité neuue,
    Instant grand flamme esparse sautera,
    Quand on voudra des Normans faire preuue,

    At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
    Fire to approach the great new city:
    In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
    When one will want to demand proof of the Normans."

    Edit 2: WTF, I recall "steps" not degrees, which is explicit there . NWM.
    Last edited by The Ineffable; 12-17-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    However they use to interpret Nostradamus, I once read such one (an interpretation) which concluded that skyscrapers in New York would allegedly be assaulted with rockets - which sounded improbable but in that same text, IIRC, it was linked to the unrest in the Middle East. This brochure was printed in 1994. I think in this case, it is not a fallacy to connect to the events, first because it was an actual and pretty precise interpretation, second because it occured before the events. I don't remember what predictions were speculated by the author of the brochure - if any - and which were taken from Orson Welles, neither where the link to Middle East was made (if it was in the same context with the New York assault), but if I find that brochure again I could find out.
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    All this synchronicity stuff seem related to introverted intuition, isn't it ?
    "The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."

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    I think synchronicity is supposed to be the ability to use the future to define the present. It would be like me seeing or imagining how I am immortal and then later being put in harms way and coming out fine, which supplants the idea that I'm immortal. It's reacting in the present to the future, in a then acausal manner. Basically, causality couldn't infer that I am immortal because it doesn't depend on the past, but the future.

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    I had some seriously wicked synchronicity moments with an LIE I was on very good terms for a while until our relationship suddenly turned sour. The depth of which our synchronicity occurred at was one of those things you need to see in order to believe it. It wasn't just random things like letters related to the first name of someone you'll date but went so far as to express our sexual desires despite not knowing what the other person thought or liked before we brought it up, then it turned out we liked EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS. And so on. I've never felt I've been as attuned to another person as I was to him. If that's what a dual or semi-dual relationship is like, then holy moly, I am never doubting the validity of duality ever again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    I think synchronicity is supposed to be the ability to use the future to define the present. It would be like me seeing or imagining how I am immortal and then later being put in harms way and coming out fine, which supplants the idea that I'm immortal. It's reacting in the present to the future, in a then acausal manner. Basically, causality couldn't infer that I am immortal because it doesn't depend on the past, but the future.
    I would really have to get wasted to continue this.

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    Synchronicity is a mutual calibration between things. Two people connected in a relationship with one other is synchronistic.

    A month or so ago Hitta told me about a bizarre synchronized experience where he was watching videos fen was playing, and the concepts illustrated in the videos seemed totally random to him. So he said "fen, the videos you play are so random. Next video you play is gona have fish dancing in the desert"; and right as he said that the next video came on with fish standing up on their hind fins 'dancing' on sand.

    So basically his mind was calibrated / synchronized with fen / her random videos, both the comment produced by his mind and the video fen played next fell within those mutual parameters... His mind was in a relationship with the video being played next before it was played.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    then it turned out we liked EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS.
    Hmm, sounds a bit familiar. Anyhow, I'm a bit curious, but shouldn't two intuitives fare a bit better at the start when it comes to intertype relations, this semi-duality you spoke of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Hmm, sounds a bit familiar. Anyhow, I'm a bit curious, but shouldn't two intuitives fare a bit better at the start when it comes to intertype relations, this semi-duality you spoke of?
    Probably, I wouldn't know. I don't think I have really dated a sensor or been good friends with a sensor before except one person back in grade school who I think was an MBTI ISTP. I don't know if she was a sensor in socionics or not, my memory's too vague of her to remember and I can't type people that well in socionics.

    I suppose sensors could have similar experiences more pertaining to the sensory stimuli they experience though, but it would be harder for them building such a relationship over the internet that occurred with this person I experienced semi-duality with.

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    Well thanks...

    I'm going to use it someday, maybe in your thread.

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