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Thread: Rationality, chaos and disorganization for ESIs-ISFjs

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    Default Rationality, chaos and disorganization for ESIs-ISFjs

    The ESI description fits like a glove, especially the Fi dom.....minus one finger.

    By any standard I'm considered what people would call a VERY STRONG "P" in the MBTI. I'm chaotic both internally (my mind is a messy maze of things, right hemisphere tendedncies all over) and externally, inductive (from detail to global picture), hands on and random absorbtion of information (reading manuals and guides, going step by step is BORING so I prefer to "just get in and do it), disorganized and messy. I don't plan, I adapt, navigate, figure out and go with my flow. I don't care about order, neatness and such, do what I feel like doing. Tend to leave things last minute, work in bursts of interest and energy, am NOT "steady as she goes". somethnig is wrong here.

    am I missing something? The description is the opposite of this.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    As opined previously, a lot of things you describe within yourself sound closer to EXXp temperament > IXXj temperament. So, it doesn't seem like ISFj fits you all that well, if you claim to exhibit qualities that would be highly unusual for said type. IXXj types are more often externally restrained, controlled, and predictable rather than chaotic, more likely to plan, least likely to adapt, among other things.

    Maybe try ESFp or ENFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    As opined previously, a lot of things you describe within yourself sound closer to EXXp temperament > IXXj temperament. So, it doesn't seem like ISFj fits you all that well, if you claim to exhibit qualities that would be highly unusual for said type. IXXj types are more often externally restrained, controlled, and predictable rather than chaotic, more likely to plan, least likely to adapt, among other things.

    Maybe try ESFp or ENFp.
    Externally I am restrained and controlled, emotionally unexpressive, withdrawn, and now that I have gotten mostly over my social anxieties, I increasingly find that being "social" is boring, uninteresting, leaves me cold, so something like this:

    SEEs are active, energetic, and assiduous individuals who try to apply their energy and initiative to worldly tasks. They may often be natural leaders who do not hesitate to take the initiative in any endeavor, and possess the ability to motivate others into levels of greater activity and determination. They may, even moreso than SLEs, adopt a strategy of solving problems through sheer force of will rather than depth of strategy or insight. SEEs may have an unerringly proactive, real-world focus; their ambitions are usually centered around furthering some real world cause or doing some good in society rather than compulsive power-seeking. They can be shrewd, tactful, and sensitive negotiators and often apply their energy to the arena of persuading, activating, and motivating others.

    SEEs are typically extroverts in every sense of the word. They are socially spontaneous, hyperactive, engaging, and enthusiastic. They may be predominantly oriented towards parties or other social gatherings, and may frequently and compulsively seek out new acquaintances, stimuli, or experiences. They often seek to augment the depth or intensity of their involvement in any affair -- including but not limited to exerting their emotional and physical energy. They may periodically seek out new stories, gadgets, media, or other things to obsess themselves over. Often they direct their energies to the sphere of social relations, in which they can exhibit a sense of obsessive attachment, intimacy, or closeness with others, sometimes leading contacts to feel smothered or uncomfortable due to a lack of emotional space. They may go about developing close relationships with a variety of acquaintances, effectively developing widespread social networks with a wide range of close contacts.

    SEE are sensitive to the physical stimuli around them and may seek to overload themselves with the experience of the moment. They may tend towards materialistic lifestyles, sporting large collections of various kinds of gadgets or media. They adapt quickly to the changing needs of their environment and may shift quickly from hedonistic indolence to a state of vigor and vitality. They can often appear to act in a sudden, impulsive, uncontrolled, and confused fashion.
    ...is NOT what I manifest. SEE creative Fi function isn't how I use my Fi either. Emotions on my sleve my ass. :/ I'm too agressive, direct and conflictual, uncompromizing to be IEE, its a closer fit thou.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    Externally I am restrained and controlled, emotionally unexpressive, withdrawn, and now that I have gotten mostly over my social anxieties, I increasingly find that being "social" is boring, uninteresting, leaves me cold, so something like this:



    ...is NOT what I manifest. SEE creative Fi function isn't how I use my Fi either. Emotions on my sleve my ass. :/ I'm too agressive, direct and conflictual, uncompromizing to be IEE, its a closer fit thou.
    Okay. Well, I'm only going by what you claim you are like, I have no (strong) impression of your personality to contrast how you really act with how you think you act like, to be able to prescribe a type. Only suggestions for which directions you could alternatively look into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Okay. Well, I'm only going by what you claim you are like, I have no (strong) impression of your personality to contrast how you really act with how you think you act like, to be able to prescribe a type. Only suggestions for which directions you could alternatively look into.
    ^^ looking into IEE....according to personal experience and what I established my trifix to be...I'm kinda very reactive (used to think 4-6-8), which translates into sudden out of nowhere sudden uncompromizing emotion fueled willfullness (for which I apologize in advance). Overall IEE kinda makes sense as well.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Irrationality in MBTI is not the same as in socionics.
    Temperaments in the first go refer here to usage of energy. Ij tend to keep stable energy most of the time and on a low level. Ej on the other hand tend to work his guts out and lose all their energy. Ip are able to spend their energy on max level only for a short period of time and are more flexible in changing their state. Ij also don't like too much when other people change their state rapidly and they don't like anything unexpected but this doesn't necessarily mean that it is about events - rather more on temperamental/energetic changes.

    The problem that you don't care about e.g. order might refer to your IM.

    And general descriptions of TIMS suck most of the time.

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    I can relate to your post and I'm sure I'm INFj. There are factors outside of socionics that can make you look/act different from what is stereotypical to your socionics temperament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alklonth View Post
    Irrationality in MBTI is not the same as in socionics.
    Temperaments in the first go refer here to usage of energy. Ij tend to keep stable energy most of the time and on a low level. Ej on the other hand tend to work his guts out and lose all their energy. Ip are able to spend their energy on max level only for a short period of time and are more flexible in changing their state. Ij also don't like too much when other people change their state rapidly and they don't like anything unexpected but this doesn't necessarily mean that it is about events - rather more on temperamental/energetic changes.

    The problem that you don't care about e.g. order might refer to your IM.

    And general descriptions of TIMS suck most of the time.
    Hmm I'm internally reactive, intense, neurotic, chaotic, and fluctuatiing-jumpy-random, contradictory and basically live in my head, suffer a lot of push-pull, but this is a constant and never changes. Externally pleasant but subdued and cold, unexpressive, distant, controlled, seemingly logical...unless disturbed, in which case stuff boils to the surface in "colorful" reactions, I can cross borders and make others very uncomfortable, get too close, too intense...and defensively pushy, willful. Its likem I'm ICE and FIRE in one :/. Have a tendency to be "chameleonic" when dealing with people, I may manifest whatever is needed unless I need to become very Fe-ishly expressive...which I can't do.

    Unsure how I can explain the complexity of it or how to convey a complete image in order to translate into type. I'd say ESI>=IEE and everything else falls short.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    I know plenty of ESIs who are not as rigid as the description, but combining the negation of all their typical characteristics is...strange. Most of those I know are very neat and orderly when compared to the *average* population. They might not be good time-managers and thus might work more as the deadline approaches. They might not work in a very even way either, but still much more even than your typical ESFp or ENFp.

    Edit: I also know one ESI who is rather direct, aggressive and uncompromising - some sort of sx 6. However, she is very neat, tense, orderly, and planned - qualities that (in my book) make her even more uncompromising...(she´s got an ENTj 8 boyfriend, they fight every day, but they like it that way...).
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    How comfortable are you leaving things up in the air? I don't just mean stuff like plans, but stuff like opinions, relationships, understanding. Are you cool with watching the pieces fall where they will or do you feel compelled to pluck them and place them on the ground? Do things HAVE to make sense? How do you feel when they don't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    How comfortable are you leaving things up in the air? I don't just mean stuff like plans, but stuff like opinions, relationships, understanding. Are you cool with watching the pieces fall where they will or do you feel compelled to pluck them and place them on the ground? Do things HAVE to make sense? How do you feel when they don't?
    I NEED things to make sense, to work things out, to reach understanding, to have certainty, confirm or disprove, want to talk things out...and not leave them up in the air. It bothers me if I have to leave things in the air....but I'm also doubting and tend towards indecision at times....which is frustrating.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    I NEED things to make sense, to work things out, to reach understanding, to have certainty, confirm or disprove, want to talk things out...and not leave them up in the air. It bothers me if I have to leave things in the air....but I'm also doubting and tend towards indecision at times....which is frustrating.
    Do you realize how very different ESI is from IEE; that just because you say you're not organized, you can't contribute that to p in Socionics, although it may be valid in MBTI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Do you realize how very different ESI is from IEE; that just because you say you're not organized, you can't contribute that to p in Socionics, although it may be valid in MBTI
    you also have to realize that I'm me and not my type, I wouldn't dream conforming to any description - theory, it either is flexible enough to get me at my core and include my tendencies or I'll find where its broken and discard it as bullshit with some pockets of truth that are of further use / will refuse the label. It is pretty cut and dry. I don't like ambiguous aproaches.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    I NEED things to make sense, to work things out, to reach understanding, to have certainty, confirm or disprove, want to talk things out...and not leave them up in the air. It bothers me if I have to leave things in the air....but I'm also doubting and tend towards indecision at times....which is frustrating.
    I don't know your type yet, but same. This difference in comfort level and motivation is a difference I've seen between myself and other people even if from the outside I look more open ended and chaotic because of doubt.

    Also with Fi being an individual and implicit thing I think it can look more fuzzy and loose even when things have been concluded and settled internally since it doesn't always lend itself well to being articulated definitively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    you also have to realize that I'm me and not my type, I wouldn't dream conforming to any description - theory, it either is flexible enough to get me at my core and include my tendencies or I'll find where its broken and discard it as bullshit with some pockets of truth that are of further use / will refuse the label. It is pretty cut and dry. I don't like ambiguous aproaches.
    LOL; I think that would make you a rational type because rationality in a sense is folding in the occurrences and things of life into well defined perspective either one made up of subjective boundaries or objective. It seems like your "method" of approaching reality is a "well defined approach;" if that works then you'll go along, if not then you exclude yourself; much contradictory to P approach which may be just being there and letting the environment dictate where it's going. J types have such extraordinary conflicts with the environments around them; the extraverts judge the things that happen as being efficient, too much of a head ache, too time consuming, etc...LOL.

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    Maybe you´re ESFj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Maybe you´re ESFj.
    I suck at both Te and Fe, slightly more at Fe. They are probably my worst functions. I don't express my internal self well, which is a problem and while I'd like ppl to be happy and all that, I don't know how to affect them towards this end or another. I can suggest solutions or directly fix the problem. I find it difficult to feel what they feel or to do things, like console people and hugging....


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Well, in this thread and in many others, you seem to be expressing yourself quite a lot Another option could also be ENFj.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, in this thread and in many others, you seem to be expressing yourself quite a lot Another option could also be ENFj.
    Extraverted ethics (feeling) internal dynamics of objects Fe Socionics symbol Fe.svg Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.

    I'm a natural at green (aka reading body language, tonality of voice, context and intention is second nature to me) and poor at red....so so very bad at it offline.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    Maybe try to look for an element which you know for sure is weak. If this helps anyway, for a long time was I wondering what my TIM is.

    Albeit I'd known from the beginning that my form of thinking is algorithmic, I couldn't match it to any TIM at that time. Then I caught as a weak and eliminated it from 5-6 as I am conscious of its weakness. Then I tried with temperaments, compared IEI to ILI, finally checked all the dichotomies.

    And btw, I was mistaking for for some time. I just thought I'm withdrawing because of while I think I'm more conscious of problems and don't want to be directed with any strong feelings. I tend to feel anxiety with things connected with too but still, I was mistaking them.

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    Rim, I think you're very well an ESI. I don't see why you're conflicted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Rim, I think you're very well an ESI. I don't see why you're conflicted.
    o.o type 6 doubt===>analysis===>inconsistency===>suspicion=== >questioning====>doubt===> analysis infinite loop x.x......plus I can't stop my thoughts and my mind is constantly active when I do boring office work so I keep thinking all the freaking time. I'm cursed I tell u! ^^;


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    @alklonth

    K, I finally got a handle on my IM elements and this is how I relate to each:

    Te - bad at it, very bad and I dislike it's approach to things.
    Fe - suck at it and seeing it around me annoys and stresses me out. O.o but I admire and love people who use drama in a bad-ass way.
    Si - I don't tend to think about it, I like dressing well and looking good, but that is about it.
    Ni - not sure I even understand this one.
    Ti - I use it for defense or criticism, for fun, but things related often feel dry and lack a human element.
    Fi - basically my default mode, i'm so used to this I barely even notice.
    Ne - I'm unsure if I'm good at things related to it, but I find it FUN and weather I want to or not I use it constantly...but mostly in a negative sense as I tend to get caught up in it and frustrate myself over time.
    Se fuck yeah I will never surrender, dig my heals in and with a grin on my face I taunt the world to overtake me! The stronger the opposition the more my resistance, exhilaration and will grows, to face it head on, overcome and crush it before me...ahh I live for that feeling! <===this is inhibited by what I'd call Fi stuff, so I only take it to a certain point....my guilty conscience will crush me if I go overboard too much.

    o.o any thoughts?
    Last edited by Rim; 11-11-2012 at 12:06 PM.


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    ISTj maybe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ISTj maybe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rim View Post
    Te - bad at it, very bad and I dislike it's approach to things.
    Ti-doms don´t dislike a Te approach on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    Ti-doms don´t dislike a Te approach on things.
    Things changed...no surprise there. Reevaluating ILI vs. IEI. I'm Ni dom...go figure. :/ best guess as an explanation for the above is that I'm a superego type 6 with a 1 fix. Also aparently Se would make me more active and less inclined to overthnk and stay in my room analyzing, thinking, being lazy and inactive with lack of motivation (which is mostly what I do...sadly...I'm the stuck in his head lazy type who doesen't like sleeping....and doesen't get out much)


    Big5 rxUa|I| 6w7- 4 - 1 So/Sx
    = Fear is a cage where you locked yourself up. Courage & faith in yourself is the key to freedom. =
    = Shit happens. Realx and make the most of it. You can not control what is outside of yourself. =
    Alignment: Neutral Good-ish / Snarky-Needy Bastard

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    post pictures of your sexy face so we can judge you

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