Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Translation Request: On Possibility of Falsifying Type

  1. #1
    alklonth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    TIM
    LIE
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Translation Request: On Possibility of Falsifying Type

    http://socionicasys.ru/biblioteka/st...i-falsifikacii

    The article seems interesting. Is anyone willing to translate it?

  2. #2
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Google Chrome will try:

    The results of experiments conducted by a team socionists working on the site of the School of Socionics system which has set itself the task to check the possibility of fraud typeable dimensional model of their mental functions TIM psyche and deception expert (tipirovschika) in verbal typing.
    The need to investigate the possibility of fraud typeable his psyche TIM and, if necessary, to detect fraud tipirovschikom there because of the prevalence of communicative models ("masks"), people have to be used in a complex social reality. [1] Under the fraud we understand:
    intentional misrepresentation typeable tipirovschikov about his psyche TIM (artificial creation communication model, "mask" of a TIM psyche);
    involuntary commitment typeable tipirovschiku present information which corresponds to communication model ("Mask"), forced or induced typeable desire to match the desired social reality, or "good" (from his point of view!) Tim psyche.
    The idea of the experiment prompted the authors situation that now exists in the socionics forums on the Internet. Number socionic index increased. Many are being identified TIM psyche. The level of training tipirovschikov poor. The bulk of those who tipiruet - autodidact same socionics forums. As a result, lots of people "walks" on socionics forums to get different TIMs mind, "try on" over these TIMs. As a result of our website, " The school system Socionics "(SSS) were typed people come psyche TIM which was many times someone defined (and sometimes imposed) which will have some idea of the psyche Timah (mainly by the descriptions) and often in a "mask" of a psyche TIM 1 . This is reflected in their responses while typing and may pose additional challenges tipirovschiku, which we intend to test.
    Cause of unintentional fraud can become man's desire to provide favorable conditions of communication, to show themselves in the best light, inadvertently cover unfilled ("weak") of the model. Even if the person had never been for the identification procedure (definition of TIM psyche, typing), he unwittingly (estestvenno!) tends not to open tipirovschiku (and not only tipirovschiku but any stranger) the characteristics of his psyche. So there is the problem of distinguishing communication model ("Mask") and true TIM psyche. This problem is particularly acute in the two cases:
    typeable with good filling model of mental functions (broad erudition, read a lot, has a wealth of experience verbal) 2 ;
    typeable, for whatever reasons, considers "his" mind and a TIM intentionally or not "playing" on small functions as a multi-dimensional.
    Responses of such people can be misleading tipirovschikov because many typeable and "confident" speaks undersized functions and often exhibits self-confidence for Small function [2, 3].
    The organizers of the experiment started with the following theoretical position : TIM mentality does not change for the life and dimension of mental function does not change from filling with age. In this case, the dimension of the functions should be a tool that provides the ability to distinguish good content from the multidimensionality of mental function, and self-confidence typeable by low-dimensional features of good filling function and multidimensionality.
    How should an experiment to determine the effect on the result of typing fraud? We have seen two ways:
    We can assume that deliberately falsify answers in the identification process (typing) can those who know and can verify the model TIM psyche has dimension theory, practice, its definition, ie, experts tipirovschiki. Knowing psyche TIM tipirovschika, can he set the task consciously show greater dimension in the responses of low-dimensional features.
    Can provoke respondent's unintentional fraud. Since these respondents do not know purpose of the experiment, the task must be placed so as to make it necessary to speak on another TIM psyche (communication model). To be able to compare the result with their original Tim psyche, the experiment should be involved with the respondents reliably known Tim mentality defined by our experienced tipirovschikami HSS in the paradigm.
    Part 1:
    An experiment to deliberate falsification TIM psyche
    Experiment was carried out as follows. In the experiment, the respondents took part, that:
    A well-known model (paradigm in HSS);
    have experience of identification (typing) TIM psyche;
    well aware psyche TIM to be fake, have a long experience of communication with its members;
    TIM model of the psyche of the respondents reliably identified and verified long relations.
    In fact, the respondent, which were in the role of HSS experts on hand were "all the cards" in order to deceive the alleged tipirovschika.
    The respondents (typeable) in the experiment were: TIM psyche EII - 5 people, psyche TIM FEL - 4 people.
    Respondents were asked one question on the aspects of the 1st and 5th of mental functions of the model, "black logic" (PY) and "white ethics' (BE).
    Questions:
    PY : What tools do you use in your daily life? What is a useful tool? How do you select a tool for work, give examples? How would you rate your ability to pick the right tool? How others rate your ability in this?
    BE : What are the ways of establishing relations? Which one is the most elegant? What you prefer to use, and why? What is the skill in a relationship?
    The tasks assigned to the respondents:
    to answer as fully as possible to the question, to prove himself a "real expert" in this aspect;
    with the response from the 5th to demonstrate the model's "mask" Douala;
    track your reactions, thoughts, status, which were caused by the procedure itself, and the question of the experiment.
    We evaluated how well the respondent failed to simulate multi-dimensional response of the low-dimensional (5th) functions. Reply from multidimensional (1st) function is considered as the reference.
    Result : None of tipirovschikov failed to answer a question about his one-dimensional function to go beyond the dimension of experience, ie the answer was still "one-dimensional".
    The conclusions from the responses to the question on PY
    EII
    In answering the aspect PY seeking to enter BC (and, if possible, in the CHI), ie trying to enter the thinking on mental superblock.
    In response to PY look to the "experience."
    In response to PY identified indicators of vitality, as well as some of the individual (original) idea of perspective.
    Competence sought to show a lot of knowledge, analysis of the "situation" respondents failed to show.
    Can show knowledge of the "rules."
    Self-assessment aspect gives undersized function. Of self-assessment on low-dimensional functions or tried to leave, or have been forced to recognize that rate themselves on low-dimensional functions is difficult.
    FEL
    Self-confident, but do not pay attention, quietly accept errors aspect.
    Narrow your answers, showing the "plus" PY.
    Elapsed time is clearly visible: there is a consideration in relation to the time and situation, showing a long process.
    There are indicators mentality.
    No conversion of thinking in other functions.
    Conclusions from the answers to a question about BE
    EII
    The dimension of the parametric time manifested itself in considering the development of relations in the vision stage.
    Clearly visible "plus" function BE: consider only the positive relationship.
    BE - Set value - EII do not consider relations manipulation, use of relationships for personal gain.
    Clearly showed the block BE from CHI.
    Sounded global, when it comes to people in general (possibly from the "minus" CHI).
    Sometimes manifested opposition BE and ES.
    FEL
    Do not work at all FEL adjust to EII in the reply to EB.
    "Establish a relationship" was understood as a "get acquainted."
    Identified indicators of vitality and low-dimensional features.
    Answers clearly heard from the one-dimensional function.
    Showed "negative" function EB.
    For example, the responses sounded one-dimensional indicators of individual vital functions:
    for me it is more convenient
    I like
    you just have to get used
    somehow familiar
    I was more habit brings peace with flaws that I noticed out of fear that I could not find a better and have to return to the same store
    I'm lost
    hard to choose
    very angry in such situations
    want the choice was made for me
    often it is a matter of turns
    Examples of problematic responses from the one-dimensional function:
    EII : "When was responsible for PY noticed that just do not know where to start. Feeling that the ball head of information and do not know how to structure it, where to start, what is important to watch out for what to include. "
    LSE : "Frankly speaking, popotela the text. Briskly written two sentences, suddenly fell into a stupor, because the phrase "establish relationships" does not translated into any images, words and meanings. Went to drink coffee and think about how to get out. The biggest problem when writing on low-dimensional functions - even think of anything to write. Struggle to find a thought that you can somehow develop. It seems to be something you know and understand, but hard to say. At a loss for words with. In the end I realized that more than anything I can squeeze out of myself. "
    Conclusion of all responses
    attempts to forge extra dimensions in the responses of the one-dimensional mental function did not work;
    completely failed to "go" on the sign of the function;
    living with a dual, constantly communicating with them, knowing their value, knowing the signs and indicators of multidimensionality, the experts have not been able to do to transfer this knowledge to not "own" language.
    Part 2:
    Experiment unintentional falsification TIM psyche
    We tested the possibility of falsification dimension of mental function (and hence the psyche TIM) and the convergence tipirovschikov. For this question was made by a "black" intuition (CHI), which has never been used in typing:
    The probability that it is? What place in your life is the probability? What do you know common, obvious likelihood? What is not obvious? Give examples. Assess your ability to see the probability and compare it with the abilities of others. What is the "Incredible, but true"? Give examples.
    Respondents - study participants (18 people) were previously protipirovanny in HSS, their psyche TIMs was verified in a more or less long to proceed.
    In this experiment were presented such TIMs psyche:
    Timna composition of the respondents of the second experiment
    TIM LII ESE SLE EIE SEE OR EII FEL SLI IEA
    Number of respondents 4 1 1 1 1 2 4 2 1 1
    Number tipirovschikov - 4 people, their mentality TIMs: FRI - 2 people, LSE - 1 person, EII - 1 person.
    Experiment was carried out as follows.
    Replies expelled one person who encrypted the names of the respondents and to change the form type verbs.
    Tipirovschiki not know who is involved in the experiment.
    Tipirovschiki commented answers independently.
    Not counting their "know" responses when the content of the answer tipirovschik guessed's text.
    The tasks assigned to tipirovschikami:
    define the dimension function "black intuition" of the respondent;
    note other indicators: sign, vitality / mentality;
    possible to put forward the version of TIM psyche.
    The tasks assigned to the respondents:
    to answer as fully as possible to the question, to prove himself a "real expert" in the field;
    no cheating! .. (This assumes that the respondent is not known to cheat will be - in the worst case, it may unconsciously hide some information.)
    The experimental results (see table) showed a coincidence analysis of responses to the parameters previously defined TIM psyche in terms of:
    dimension of functions 81%
    vitality / mentality 78.5%
    sign 87.5%
    block 80%
    average match 81.5%
    Thus, the error in determining the dimensions of the functions provided if determined tipirovschiki TIMs mind independently, was 19%. When sharing typing - 11% (2 patients out of 18). The convergence of conclusions tipirovschikov each other in low-dimensional parameter / multidimensionality of mental function was 82%.
    The obtained experimental results (19% of errors in determining the dimension functions) include not only the dimension of possible fraud, but also the factor of the level of competence and tipirovschikov enough information to the right conclusions. In "pure" experiment to falsify the dimension of mental function authors is extremely difficult.
    However, the result of the experiment still strongly suggests that a tool such as the dimension of the features is precise enough to get good results on the convergence of communication and to identify tipirovschikov models ("masks") TIM psyche . Additional findings of the results of the experiment answers the question of whether one can correctly define the dimension function typeable in assessing response if tipirovschika function of the corresponding aspect of undersized. In our case, it turned out - you can! .. Tipirovschik (№ 2) with low-dimensional intuition showed results no worse than their peers.
    We are fully aware of the fact that the number of respondents who participated in the experiment, is not enough for a statistically valid conclusions and assume that the experiment will continue.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  3. #3
    alklonth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    TIM
    LIE
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes, I read it through google translator, thx, but meant sth rather more professional than a machine
    I'd do it by myself but none of the languages is my mother tongue.

  4. #4
    silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    3,786
    Mentioned
    317 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alklonth View Post
    Yes, I read it through google translator, thx, but meant sth rather more professional than a machine
    I'd do it by myself but none of the languages is my mother tongue.
    I'm probably the only active russian-english translator at this time. The article you linked looks interesting but it's a rather lengthy and would take many hours to translate & edit the tables. Are there any specific sections or paragraphs that you're interested in getting a better translation of?

  5. #5
    alklonth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    TIM
    LIE
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Maybe you could just summarize the main / the most important points then?

  6. #6
    silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    3,786
    Mentioned
    317 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alklonth View Post
    Maybe you could just summarize the main / the most important points then?
    Ok, I did a crude translation rushing through it and condensing some paragraphs. It didn't take as long as I expected it to.

    Prereq. reading: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-functions & http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-functions
    Some of my own comments are in [] brackets.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    On Possibility of Falsification of Type in Verbal Typing
    I. M. Eglit, H. G. Epemeeva, G. V. Tenetilov, N. N. Floman

    The results of experiments conducted by a group of socionists, working on the site of the School of Systematic Socionics, which has set itself with the task of checking the possibility of falsification of dimensionality of functions and deception of whoever is conducting a typing in verbal communication. By falsification we understand the following:

    - Intentional deception by the person to be typed by methods of artificially forming communicative model ("mask") designed to mislead those attempting to type him or her. [e.g. someone attempting to play into the prevalent type stereotypes and imitate corresponding intertypes to convince others of being a certain type]

    - Unintentional wearing of a false "mask" due to having to fill in a particular social role or fit into what the person thinks constitutes a "good" type. [e.g. someone molding into type that's not their own in order to fit in socially, avoiding types that are associated with negative stereotypes and instead trying to adopt a type that one deems to be better for whichever reason]

    This experiment was prompted by the current situation on socionics forums, which have proliferated. Many people request typings but get typed by novices or type themselves orienting solely by descriptive profiles [and forgo studying the theory in any depth and thus of course succumb to typical type stereotypes when trying to type themselves] Thus when people come to our school, their type has often been predetermined by someone (and sometimes even imposed!). They usually have their own conception of TIMs and are often wearing a mask of one or another type, which is reflected in their replies during typing.

    Motivations for unintentional falsification of TIM could be a desire to show oneself in a better light, to create more favorable and advantageous social conditions, or to "cover up" one's weaknesses. Even if a person has never been typed, he/she will not disclose total contents of his/her psyche. This problem is especially acute under these conditions:
    - The person to be typed is erudite, has broad experience, and communicates well verbally.
    - The person for some reason considers some TIM to be "his or her" TIM and willingly or unwillingly exercises the lower dimensionality functions of this TIM as if they are high dimensional ones. [for example, someone claiming to be a logical type may strive to point of errors in reasoning of others]

    The premise of this experiment was that one's TIM is stable and does not change throughout the course of one's life, and thus dimensionality of functions does not change from being filled with new information. Thus dimensionality should prove to be one of the instruments for differentiating broad knowledge of the person to be typed from him/her possessing a high dimensionality function, and his/her confidence in areas of weaker functions from high dimensionality.

    How to set up experiment to show effects of falsification on typing results? We saw two ways:
    - It can be assumed that intentional falsification can be undertaken by those who are very knowledgeable of the model of TIMs, who are aware of the methods of how types are usually assigned and verified, and who know about dimensionality of functions. They can be set with the task of intentionally demonstrating high dimensional response concerning areas of low dimensional functions.
    - The subjects of the experiment can be provoked to demonstrate a different TIM by being exposed to different situations.


    Part 1
    Experiment on deliberate falsification of TIMs


    Participants in this experiment were those who
    - know the model A well
    - have experience with identification of TIMs
    - are well-versed in TIM that they needed to falsify
    - their true TIMs have been established and verified through prior extensive communication

    Essentially these people had "all cards" to falsify types.
    Among participants 4 belonged to TIM INFj, 5 belonged to TIM ESTj.

    They were given 1 question each about aspects of 1st and 5th functions: and

    Te : What tools/instruments do you use in your daily life? What makes for a convenient tool/instrument? How do you select a tool for specific task, give examples? How would you rate your ability to pick the right tool? How others rate your ability in this?

    Fi : What are the ways of establishing relations? Which of these is the most elegant? Which you prefer to follow, and why? What constitutes mastery in relations?

    The tasks assigned to respondents:
    - answer as fully as possible to the question, to prove oneself a "real expert" in this aspect
    - in response about the 5th aspect try to demonstrate the "mask" of the dual
    - track your reactions, thoughts, condition, which were caused by the procedure itself, and the question of the experiment

    We evaluated how well the respondents count emulate multi-dimensional response from a low-dimensional (5th) function. Responses from multidimensional (1st) function were used as a reference.

    Result: None of participants managed to answer a question about their 1-dimensional function to go beyond the dimension of experience, i.e. the answer was still "one-dimensional".

    Observations of responses to questions concerning Te aspect

    INFj:
    - In answering on aspect of Te, they sought to reply from Ti (and possibly Fi), i.e. trying to engage in this kind of thinking via mental superblock.
    - In responses requiring Te, they recollected their "experience."
    - In their responses indicators of vital functions could be identified, as well as some of the individual ("original") ideas of this aspect.
    - They strived to demonstrate their competence in this aspect through large quantities of knowledge; analysis of the "situation" they could not show.
    - They could show their knowledge of the "norms".
    - Self-assessment on this aspect showed low dimensionality of this function. They either attempted to leave it out, or admitted that rating themselves on a low-dimensional functions was difficult.
    ESTj:
    - Confident in self-assessment, but do not pay attention to this, calmly accepting of mistakes.
    - Concretize their answers, demonstrate +Te.
    - Time parameter was clearly visible: their consideration of the questions were given in relation to time and situation, showing duration of processes.
    - There were indicators of mentality.
    - No translation of thinking to other functions.

    Observations of answers to questions concerning Fi aspect

    INFj:
    - The dimension of the parametric time manifested itself in considering the development of relations as seeing of stages.
    - The "plus" sign of Fi was clearly demonstrated: EIIs were considering mostly positive relations.
    - White ethics is the function that sets value - EIIs did not consider maneuvering within relations.
    - The block Fi:Ne has clearly manifested itself.
    - There were generalizations, statements of global nature, when EII participants made comments concerning people.
    - Sometimes there were oppositions of Fi and Se.
    ESTj:
    - Attempts to "mask" type EII have, for the most part, failed.
    - LSE participants interpreted "establishing relations" as "becoming acquainted".
    - Indicators of vital nature of function and low-dimensional features were present.
    - Answers clearly written from the 1-dimensional function.
    - Responses showed negative Fi. [I guess this means they were considering negative aspects of relations as LSEs are negativists]

    Replies given from vital 1-dimensional function sounded like this:
    - for me this is more convenient
    - I am satisfied with this
    - simply get used to this
    - it's somehow more familiar/habitual
    - I am most upset with the habit of getting used to the flaws that I noticed out of fear, but I could not find a better place so I had to return to the same one
    - I feel lost
    - it is difficult to choose
    - I get very angry in such situations
    - it is desired that the choice was made for me
    - often it just happens by itself

    Examples of problems participants were having with replies to one-dimensional functions:

    EII: "When I was responding to question about Te I noticed that I simply did not know where to start. The feeling is that there is a ball of information in my head, and I do not know how to structure it, where to begin, what is important to watch out for, what to include."

    LSE: "Frankly speaking, I was sweating over this text. After writing down two sentences, I suddenly fell into a stupor, because the phrase "establish relations" did not translate into any images, words and meanings. Then I went to drink coffee and think about how to get through it. The biggest problem when writing from low-dimensional function is even to think of anything to write. You struggle to find a thought that you can somehow develop. It seems to be something you know and understand, but it's very difficult to explain. I was at a loss for words. In the end I realized that I cannot squeeze anything more out of myself."

    Conclusions from all responses:

    - Attempts to forge extra dimensions in the responses to questions concerning the one-dimensional mental function did not work.
    - Respondents could not evade the "sign" of the function;
    - Even after living with duals, constantly communicating with them, knowing their values, knowing the signs and indicators of multidimensionality, the participants have not been able to transfer this knowledge in their "own" language.


    Part 2
    Experiment on unintentional falsification of TIMs


    We tested the possibility of falsification of dimension of mental function (and hence of the TIM) and the convergence of the typers. To this effect, question was made about Ne which has never been used previously:

    What is probability? What place in your life does it have? Which common, obvious likelihoods do you know of? Which ones are not obvious to you? Give examples. Assess your ability to see the probabilities and compare it with the abilities of others. What is "obvious-improbable"? Give examples.

    The respondents (18 people total): LII-4, ESE-1, SLE-1, EIE-1, SEE-1, ILI-2, EII-4, LSE-2, SLI-1, IEE-1
    The typers: LII-2, LSE-1, EII-1

    Experiment was carried out as follows.
    - The names and gender on verbs were concealed.
    - Typers did not know who was involved in the experiment. [since they are all from the same socionics school they all know each other and each other's types]
    - Typers made their comments independently.
    - Any replies where the typer was able to guess the identity of the person to be typed through content of what was written were discarded.

    The main tasks set before the typers:
    - determine the dimension of function "black intuition" of the respondent;
    - note other indicators: sign, vitality/mentality;
    - possibly put forward an estimate of TIM of their psyche.

    The main tasks assigned to respondents:
    - to answer as fully as possible to the question, to prove oneself a "real expert" in the field;
    - no cheating! .. (It was assumed that the respondent is not going to lie intentionally - in the worst case, he/she may unconsciously hide some information.)

    The results of the experiment showed a convergence of results of analyses to previously determined TIMs on the following parameters:

    Dimensionality of functions - 81%
    Vital/mental aspects - 78.5%
    Sign of functions - 87.5%
    Block - 80%
    Average convergence - 81.5%

    Thus, the error in determining the dimensions of the functions, provided that typers were working independently, was 19%. Under conditions of working together - 11% (2 people out of 18).

    The obtained experimental results (probably of 19% in determining the dimensionality of functions) reflect not only possible falsification, but also the level of competence of typers and the quantity of information that was provided. Conducting a "pure" experiment on falsification of the dimension of mental function authors surmise to be extremely difficult.

    However, the result of the experiment still suggests that a tool such as the dimensionality of the functions is sufficient to get good results on the convergence to identify communicative models ("masks") of the TIM of psyche. Additional findings answer the question of whether one can correctly pick up on the dimension of the function of another person if one's own function is not of high dimensionality. In our case, it turned out that yes you can do it! Typer #2 with low-dimensional intuition showed results no worse than his peers.

    We are fully aware of the fact that the number of respondents who participated in the experiment is very small for statistically valid conclusions, and assume that these experiments will continue.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •