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Thread: Enneagram: Anger

  1. #1
    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Enneagram: Anger

    Please describe what you think or feel anger is, how it relates to the enneagram, and/or how it relates to us as people.

    As a starting diagram, anger in the enneagram is represented by 8, 9, and 1. Their generalized attributes in relativity to each of the anger triad types are:

    8: Anger Triad. Reactive Triad (4.6.8) Rejectivist (2,5,8) Assertive Triad (3.7.8)
    9: Anger Triad. Positivist Triad (2.7.9) Relating Triad (3.6.9) Withdrawn Triad (4.5.9)
    1: Anger Triad. Compentency Triad (1.3.5) Idealist Triad (1.4.7) Compliant Triad (1.2.6)

    The entire anger triad, in theory, is characterized by low noradrenaline levels. Noradrenaline is responsible for the alertness and arousal level within the mind and body. It is therefore critically linked to survival, since it is the key component of fight or flight response. The levels of which correspond to a continuum of perception of life or death situations.

    8s, in theory, are characterized by low serotonin, or the chemical responsible for general well-being and perception of resources.
    9s, in contrast, are characterized by high serotonin, which would, in theory, perceive resources as more than they may or may not be.
    1s, in the above regard, would be moderate.

    8s, in theory, are characterized by high dopamine, or the chemical responsible for both priming and the receipt of reward, whether sensual or abstract.
    9s, in contrast, are characterized by low dopamine, which would, in theory, perceive reward as less worthwhile or more effect than its value.
    1s, again, are moderate in the regard of dopamine.

    Note that all 3 chemicals interplay one another within the body and mind.

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    The issue I have with this explanation is, what counts as a "moderate" level of neurotransmitter, or a high/low one for that matter? It makes the enneagram sound like some sort of sliding scale where depending on one's brain state at any given time our type inherently changes.


    My experience of anger is more often than not simply frustration: things not going my way, shit breaking at inopportune times, etc. There are moments though where my anger becomes so fixated that it's hard to break free, which generally comes when dealing with stupid people (aka people I disagree with hurr). When I see someone disseminating false information to others, and I know that what they're saying isn't true or deceitful in some way, then I start to go berserk internally and as much as I try to contain it this eventually boils over and I eventually call them out as a false prophet of some sort. Mind you this happens very rarely, but when it does you'll know it.

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    My assumption would be relativity of receptors. I do know that extraversion and introversion have very different relationships to dopamine, for example. That has been proven.

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    8s get angry when someone belittles their opinion, 9s get angry when someone messes with their stuff, 1s get angry when someone refuses to be corrected?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post

    The entire anger triad, in theory, is characterized by low noradrenaline levels. Noradrenaline is responsible for the alertness and arousal level within the mind and body. It is therefore critically linked to survival, since it is the key component of fight or flight response. The levels of which correspond to a continuum of perception of life or death situations.

    8s, in theory, are characterized by low serotonin, or the chemical responsible for general well-being and perception of resources.
    9s, in contrast, are characterized by high serotonin, which would, in theory, perceive resources as more than they may or may not be.
    1s, in the above regard, would be moderate.

    8s, in theory, are characterized by high dopamine, or the chemical responsible for both priming and the receipt of reward, whether sensual or abstract.
    9s, in contrast, are characterized by low dopamine, which would, in theory, perceive reward as less worthwhile or more effect than its value.
    1s, again, are moderate in the regard of dopamine.

    Note that all 3 chemicals interplay one another within the body and mind.
    This is so crude it made me angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    8s get angry when someone belittles their opinion, 9s get angry when someone messes with their stuff, 1s get angry when someone refuses to be corrected?
    I enjoy when someone disgrees with me. I'm not angry, I'm excited. The more steam billows from my ears the more I like you probably.

    Personal vague thoughts on anger - too often misunderstood as a negative when really it's neutral and can be constructive or destructive. The positive side of anger is that it creates momentum, forces decisions and brings change. It can also consolidate and unite people. It's really useful to stop you dying and stuff too. But you have to let it out healthily and get to know its source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirreltual View Post
    This is so crude it made me angry
    I'm not above neutering squirrels and feeding tehir nuts to other squirrels

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    I'm not above neutering squirrels and feeding tehir nuts to other squirrels
    bring it chicken little


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    My anger seems to stem from feeling blocked by seemingly arbitrary things, blocked by my own incapabilities, and/or feeling as if someone else is attempting to control me, or watching someone else attempt to control others who have no desire to be controlled in that way or by that person. Mostly it's the control thing that will spin me into a rage, the other stuff is just frustration because the block is there, but the desire doesn't abate, heh. At that point though, I feel as if I'm being controlled by parts of my body/mind which I can't regain control of, which can build up the rage as well.

    One of the sites I am currently exploring suggests that we have network hubs which are designed for certain behaviors, and certain neurotransmitters. That if we use a network for the wrong purposes, it encourages neurotransmitters into that network which can impede or counter what that network was physically built for.

     

    For example, in the network designed for seeking, wherein we both seek for benefits (interests, desires, etc) and seek for dangers, it uses primarily dopamine and norepinephrine. But if this network is overused, or used wrongly, or if it extends too far into another network, it can increase those chemicals, and lead to paranoias and aggressions in the behaviors those other networks were designed for. In my case, I spent 8 of my formative years having to be in hyperalert mode for dangers that could spring unpatternly at any moment. My 'awareness of danger' network spread into mutliple areas of my life, including the 'befriending and bonding', 'interacting and cooperating', 'fight or flight' of course, and also 'resource allocation' and 'decision making'. Basically, when I finally ran away from home, I was a neurotic aggressive mess (led up to the diagnostics of borderline pd, post traumatic disorder, and intermittent explosive disorder). I was hyper-reactive back then. Which didn't help my cortisol levels at all.

    I've worked hard at obtaining more balance, and reducing a large portion of that reactivity, but a lot of it has been learning how to lock it up (trying to gain self-control over it). (one of the reasons i'm looking into the mentioned site is because I am hoping it will help me clear this issue up even more so that I can achieve more mental/emotional balance. So far it has given me hope...and helping me sleep better at nights.


    As for how it relates to the enneagram, i'm not familiar enough with the enneagram to make associations. But based on what the OP wrote, I would say that when I was in my late teens and 20s, the 4,6,8 Reactive triad would easily have described me. Now though I think the 8 is being replaced by the 1. I hope to further my efforts towards finding a balance without going into the complete opposite direction, heh.
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    My anger is deep within me...it motivates me subtly. It stems from my weak Fi and Fe. As a child growing up even till now at the age of 20 I still fuck up with ethics. I used to be picked on, made fun of, physically/emotionally abused, everything you could name that shouldn't be done to a child. Always me agaisnt the world. I was just a child trying to have fun and make friends...just didn't know how due to my weak ethics. That's where the lose of innocence comes from. At an very young age I realized that the world is fucked up and that most people are out for themselves. 8s desire is to not be vulnerable, that is from weak fi, and to be in control which is Se. The lust and expansiveness, and awareness, being grounded is from SeTi.

    I never forget shit done to me, so although I might be cool calm and lighthearted (intergrating to 2), deep down there is always this natural inclination to destroy everything in my path, to take what I want, out of revenge for what's been done to me in the past...which is SeTi pushing through Fi.

    Also yeah due to weak Fe its hard to control my emotions at times..because I feel them so strongly...the easiest emotion is either happyness or anger so at times I do have a quick temper. But that's when I'm stressed out, the anger builds up and I might lash out impulsively at a simple thing without thinking. But I usually try to control my emotions with reason. The anger ends up coming out anywats through my aggressive actions that I take without any consideration for others simply because I am in a bad mood...but catch me in a good mood and ill buy you a house.
    Last edited by Leader; 10-31-2012 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirreltual View Post
    bring it chicken little



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    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    My anger is deep within me...it motivates me subtly. It stems from my weak Fi and Fe. As a child growing up even till now at the age of 20 I still fuck up with ethics. I used to be picked on, made fun of, physically/emotionally abused, everything you could name that shouldn't be done to a child. Always me agaisnt the world. I was just a child trying to have fun and make friends...
    Touching story.

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    Its touching? Wasn't aware you had a heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    Its touching? Wasn't aware you had a heart.
    I've got it and more - all humans do. As for this thread, I don't know what to write here.

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    I'm not sure I like the chemical level thing -- I think it's ultimately more complex as chemical systems and neurotransmitters exist in dynamic flows and equilibriums.

    For example consider Endorphins
    Endorphins ("endogenous morphine") are endogenous opioid peptides that function as neurotransmitters.[1] They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during exercise,[2] excitement, pain, consumption of spicy food, love and orgasm,[3][4] and they resemble the opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.
    Endorphins are released during exercise, but they have to be triggered through that activity. Over time an experience athlete can improve their physical systems to release these endorphins in an optimal manner. I'd imagine most chemical systems work this way -- they have certain flows or cycles to them.

    I'd imagine say an e8 would have a large amount of serotonin as well but after feeling as though they have dominated or overcome a challenge. It's also mentioned that sometimes e8's will bolster their own ego and pretend like something isn't a threat and they are invulnerable to deal with things as a defense mechanism -- this would seem to be like triggering serotonin.

    I think it comes down to the specific character of the cycle of these chemicals and what triggers them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Interesting correlations to other personality inventories (p15 has Big-5 z-scores).
    That's exactly what siuntal posted long time ago, I still remember it when Jadae was arguing Enneagram 8 isn't one of the extraverted types.

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    So are 9s immune to depression?
    >.> Being high in serotonin and all. I call BS on this.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    So are 9s immune to depression?
    >.> Being high in serotonin and all. I call BS on this.
    They're immune to everything actually, even terminal illness...

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    To add to my post: Hypocrisy, blatant Hypocrisy pisses me the fuck off! Little hypocrisies not a big deal. But when Person A constantly seeks out ways to attack other people, ignores those people's emotions/needs, and then Person A attacks other people for not being 'sensitive' to Person A's emotions/needs....when that shit happens constantly by the same person, that shit really. fucking. pisses. me. off.

    Edited to add: I'm not sure where this would fit into enneagram stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    So are 9s immune to depression?
    >.> Being high in serotonin and all. I call BS on this.
    See mah post to Luci, incommingz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I'm not sure I like the chemical level thing -- I think it's ultimately more complex as chemical systems and neurotransmitters exist in dynamic flows and equilibriums.

    For example consider Endorphins

    Endorphins are released during exercise, but they have to be triggered through that activity. Over time an experience athlete can improve their physical systems to release these endorphins in an optimal manner. I'd imagine most chemical systems work this way -- they have certain flows or cycles to them.

    I'd imagine say an e8 would have a large amount of serotonin as well but after feeling as though they have dominated or overcome a challenge. It's also mentioned that sometimes e8's will bolster their own ego and pretend like something isn't a threat and they are invulnerable to deal with things as a defense mechanism -- this would seem to be like triggering serotonin.

    I think it comes down to the specific character of the cycle of these chemicals and what triggers them.
    I would put more emphasis on the system already in place than the chemicalc roaming around at any given time. What would be interesting as a study, if we ever get that far in neuroscience, is how reshaped plasticity from damage alters temperament itself.

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    I wouldn't call all 6s compliant - I think some 6s often pretend to be compliant for reasons relating to their needs or wants. In other words, if you have a manipulative 6, then you have one who can pretend to be, but isn't necessarily, compliant. (What about counterphobia??) At the same time, I don't think one can correlate alertness and arousal with enneagram. Socionics/MBTI types are too strong for such a thing to occur. (Think ISTP 6 for example - ISTP is pretty aroused and alert obv - lol )

    I also don't understand how any triad would be "an anger triad". Anyone can feel anger moreso than any other emotion.
    Last edited by jet city woman; 11-02-2012 at 04:27 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    I would put more emphasis on the system already in place than the chemicalc roaming around at any given time. What would be interesting as a study, if we ever get that far in neuroscience, is how reshaped plasticity from damage alters temperament itself.
    Well I think the system itself is complex -- you have to take the rhythm, intervals, and stimuli into account that releases the chemicals. You'd also have to take into account how chemical systems can improve or dampen over time... a runner, meditation specialist, or cocaine addict would all have substantially altered their system due to prolonged external conditioning.

    The system is like an entire machine in and of itself that builds, stores, and releases the chemicals subject to variety of complex conditions that may change over time as well as genetic predispositions.

    If I was a researcher in neuroscience this would be what I'd want to know. Just simply measuring the raw amount of dopamine or something seems pretty primitive and devoid of biological insight at first glance from what I understand about the human body and biology (which I could understand more).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    The issue I have with this explanation is, what counts as a "moderate" level of neurotransmitter, or a high/low one for that matter? It makes the enneagram sound like some sort of sliding scale where depending on one's brain state at any given time our type inherently changes.


    My experience of anger is more often than not simply frustration: things not going my way, shit breaking at inopportune times, etc. There are moments though where my anger becomes so fixated that it's hard to break free, which generally comes when dealing with stupid people (aka people I disagree with hurr). When I see someone disseminating false information to others, and I know that what they're saying isn't true or deceitful in some way, then I start to go berserk internally and as much as I try to contain it this eventually boils over and I eventually call them out as a false prophet of some sort. Mind you this happens very rarely, but when it does you'll know it.
    Yea, gotta be an ethical type. It's amazing to me how sure you are that your views are perfect and all these "false prophets" are looming around you. Fucking weirdo. Uhhh, lemme clue you in - you don't know it all, bitch. Learn to calm yourself. Just because someone isn't agreeing with you, that doesn't make them deceitful - lol.

    *Take this post with a grain of salt*

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    eh, fuck it. I'm channeling Chronic Asshole Syndrom today:


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    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    Yea, gotta be an ethical type. It's amazing to me how sure you are that your views are perfect and all these "false prophets" are looming around you. Fucking weirdo. Uhhh, lemme clue you in - you don't know it all, bitch. Learn to calm yourself. Just because someone isn't agreeing with you, that doesn't make them deceitful - lol.

    *Take this post with a grain of salt*
    you must be a lot of fun to take to parties

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    [B]
    9s, in contrast, are characterized by high serotonin, which would, in theory, perceive resources as more than they may or may not be.
    For one, and only one -

    I'm not going to totally blow this shit out of the water because I don't have the interest but -

    ffs

    9s can be depressive. If they have such high serotonin, why are many nines I know on anti-depressants like prozac? This would mean they have low serotonin. WTFF is this shit?!
    And 9s, they've gotta be the most angry people I've ever known - like a meowing cat who follows me around like a love puppy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    For one, and only one -

    I'm not going to totally blow this shit out of the water because I don't have the interest but -

    ffs

    9s can be depressive. If they have such high serotonin, why are many nines I know on anti-depressants like prozac? This would mean they have low serotonin. WTFF is this shit?!
    And 9s, they've gotta be the most angry people I've ever known - like a meowing cat who follows me around like a love puppy.
    Do you like pickles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Do you like pickles?
    kOrpsy, why is the only thing I know you're thinking about when you talk to me is sex?

    WTF is it with you Russians

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    For one, and only one -

    I'm not going to totally blow this shit out of the water because I don't have the interest but -

    ffs

    9s can be depressive. If they have such high serotonin, why are many nines I know on anti-depressants like prozac? This would mean they have low serotonin. WTFF is this shit?!
    And 9s, they've gotta be the most angry people I've ever known - like a meowing cat who follows me around like a love puppy.
    So when cocaine is pleasing your brain with dopamine love, that is the only thing that happens?

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    cocaine I believe is a re-uptake inhibitor so when a neurotransmitter is released in the brain, usually after the signal is sent, reuptake is triggered and the chemical is returned to storage. Cocaine inhibits this re-uptake and so the neurotransmitter remains active and stimulating the particular synapse. This creates a prolonged sense of euphoria from usually slight reward based stimulation. It also radically alters the chemical equilibrium in the brain and wears out the neurotransmitter supply... so that when one is not on cocaine they are depleted of the neurotransmitter, this creates a depressed sensation which can easily drive one to continue to do cocaine. Over time though the neurotransmitters become progressively depleted and the drug is used to mitigate depression and to "feel normal". People who regularly do cocaine sometimes have radically altered brain chemistry due to the prolonged depletion of the the neurotransmitters in their system. Over time though the chemical system can re-establish themselves.

    ^ this at least is my understanding from what I've researched

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    cocaine I believe is a re-uptake inhibitor so when a neurotransmitter is released in the brain, usually after the signal is sent, reuptake is triggered and the chemical is returned to storage. Cocaine inhibits this re-uptake and so the neurotransmitter remains active and stimulating the particular synapse. This creates a prolonged sense of euphoria from usually slight reward based stimulation. It also radically alters the chemical equilibrium in the brain and wears out the neurotransmitter supply... so that when one is not on cocaine they are depleted of the neurotransmitter, this creates a depressed sensation which can easily drive one to continue to do cocaine. Over time though the neurotransmitters become progressively depleted and the drug is used to mitigate depression and to "feel normal". People who regularly do cocaine sometimes have radically altered brain chemistry due to the prolonged depletion of the the neurotransmitters in their system. Over time though the chemical system can re-establish themselves.

    ^ this at least is my understanding from what I've researched
    lol, thats not quite what I meant, but okay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    lol, thats not quite what I meant, but okay
    Lol it's a tangent from your comment-- I get what you meant

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