Us vs Them

[Azure Flame]

Is an "us vs them" mentality type related?

[Creepy-pokeball]

I see 3 main tangents:

1. Aristocracy (type related)
2. Something or a span of time happened where threat became a lifestyle. (NTR)
3. Familial raised value. (NTR)

I am sure other tangents exist, too.

[Azure Flame]

hmm, good point. I bet aristocracy does play a big part in it though.

[Gilly]

hmm, good point. I bet aristocracy does play a big part in it though.

Fisher.

[Trevor]

If I don't get more context I'll have to answer with ISFj the guardian.

[Azure Flame]

I guess the answer was simpler than I expected. I don't really have a well formulated question at the moment, so I'll get back to you when I do, but the subject is on my mind, I'm just not sure what I want to know about it yet.

[Gilly]

I have no reason to fish for that information.

You could have any number of reasons. People do all kinds of silly things: hurt themselves, kill themselves, do all a manner of embarrassing and degrading and stupid shit. You fishing for an answer you want to hear would hardly seem absurd.

[DirectorAbbie]

1. Aristocracy

Works for me.

[Azure Flame]

You could have any number of reasons. People do all kinds of silly things: hurt themselves, kill themselves, do all a manner of embarrassing and degrading and stupid shit. You fishing for an answer you want to hear would hardly seem absurd.

I'm confused as to why my motivation is relevant to you other than generating a biased answer.

It was a simple question, and the answer I got was unbiased information. That's really all you need to know.

[Gilly]

I'm confused as to why my motivation is relevant to you other than generating a biased answer.

It was a simple question, and the answer I got was unbiased information. That's really all you need to know.

Nice diversion. I'll let you go for now.

[Gilly]

He's fishing for a way to rationalize why he isn't E6.

Idk he seems more curious about Socionics. I mean I agree he's probably not an 8 but he doesn't really seem to talk much about enneagram.

[Absurd]

Oh come on. Don't hate on your gamma DJA brethren.

[Azure Flame]

If I give you guys any context to any question I ask, the thread will become useless to me because everyone will be more focussed on who I am as a person and not the question at hand. So by not giving you any sort of context, my questions actually get answered. I win. You may continue theorizing and stewing as to the purpose of this thread all you want you will never know why, and you really don't need to.

kthxbai

[Absurd]

If I give you guys any context to any question I ask, the thread will become useless to me because everyone will be more focussed on who I am as a person and not the question at hand. So by not giving you any sort of context, my questions actually get answered. I win. You may continue theorizing and stewing as to the purpose of this thread all you want you will never know why, and you really don't need to.

kthxbai

Now you showed them, cowboy.

[Gilly]

If I give you guys any context to any question I ask, the thread will become useless to me because everyone will be more focussed on who I am as a person and not the question at hand. So by not giving you any sort of context, my questions actually get answered. I win. You may continue theorizing and stewing as to the purpose of this thread all you want you will never know why, and you really don't need to.

kthxbai

Except that we've seen people "be new" to this forum a gajillion times and we know exactly what happens with certain types of people, so trying to hide the context is completely futile because we already have a good idea what's going on in your head, having been there once ourselves and seen dozens of others pass the same way.

[strrrng]

I guess it's related to aristocracy on some level. my delta parents always had a solemn appreciation for the concept behind gated communities. but I think an explicit us-vs-them attitude can be self-defeating, better to just know how others align with your boundaries.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Competition is natural and healthy, although it can get out of hand.

[Azure Flame]

@strrrng

yeah I think it could be aristocracy related, I knew an ENFj who had an us vs them attitude: the trickers vs the gymnasts. So I didn't feel like going with him to tricking class because of it (as I am a gymnast and he is a tricker). I do it too, often without realizing it until after the fact, although the reasons I do it are different, probably a more SLE competitive scenario kinda thing. If introverted betas do it they're probably quiet about it. My LSI friend refers to anyone not in the Robert Kiyosaki mindset as a "bitch" haha, although he doesn't actively set a boundary between him and said "bitches". Its almost like he views anyone who doesn't understand rich people or how money works as if they're those ignorant people in the matrix who deserve to die. I haven't seen any examples of IEI aristocracy or us vs them though.

As for deltas in the military, there was a clear line between "us and selfish civilians" that often pissed me off. Why separate yourself from the people you're fighting to protect? It didn't make any sense. I know my gamma mother and alpha brother get irritated when I refer to them as, "you people" (meaning, anyone who doesn't believe me).

I wonder if aristocracy and "us vs them" are one in same, actually.

[Absurd]

Interesting nobody typed you yet, as in really.

[strangeling]

This is from wikisocion (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Democratic). It seems to focus on the difference between Gamma and Beta, but even so, I think it explains it well:

Aristocratic

A possible explanation for this trait regarding group thinking goes as follows. Aristocratic reasoning merely structures logically() characteristics they have observed () in several individuals, being thus a logical "connecting of the dots" applied to people. From a purely logical perspective applied to perceptions and goals, it makes perfect sense to assume that, if you perceive an individual as belonging to a group posssessing some traits you have already concluded are characteristic of that group, said individual will exhibit those traits. For example, if in your experience so far () all persons belonging to a particular division in a company have been unhelpful, it makes sense to conclude logically () in a purely impersonal way that that is a characteristic of that division, and extrapolate that to further persons from that group. From the point of view of primitive societies or situations of non-organized warfare and conflict, such a reasoning may even be crucial for survival since it allows you to estimate who your enemies are before they attack you.

Democratic

By contrast, the Democratic reasoning focuses on observations on a case-by-case basis, that is of the individual they happen to be interacting with at the moment (). A focus on does not lead to creating logical structures, but to forming stable connections to persons on individual-to-indvidual basis, and in that case there is no point to, and no inclination for, considerations of whether the observed reality of the person fits into a broader logical structure of a group ().

Does that help? It makes a lot of sense to me and what I've understood about myself and observed in other people who use Ti, so maybe it will to you. But then again, I think it's just explaining how Gamma democracy differs from Beta aristocracy.

Does anyone have explanations for why Delta is aristocratic and Alpha democratic?

[Absurd]

Does anyone have explanations for why Delta is aristocratic and Alpha democratic?

God said so.

[Ryan]

Feelers > Fi valuers > Aristocratic

I read it somewhere and the arguments were sensible. Fi plays a huge part in that so anyone can actually end up with that mentality, but individually it's observed in feelers and Fi valuers. In term of groups it will be more pronounced in Aristocratic quadras.

[Pa3s]

Beta aristocracy > Delta aristocracy > Gamma democracy > Alpha democracy

imho

[ashlesha]

i'm curious for people who identify with "us vs. them" what the specifics are. who is us and them?

my mind automatically goes to the obvious cultural stuff like race and money but i'm wondering if its more subtle things.

[strrrng]

Does anyone have explanations for why Delta is aristocratic and Alpha democratic?

they share a focus on stabilizing the environment, but with delta it's seen as a functional necessity, and people are individualized with respect to this.

i'm curious for people who identify with "us vs. them" what the specifics are. who is us and them?

my mind automatically goes to the obvious cultural stuff like race and money but i'm wondering if its more subtle things.

I can't say I literally identify, as the mindset is ultimately hypocritical, but the tendency is somewhat unconscious so... basically every person I encounter is assessed on two planes: the first is defined by the immediate social context, the second by how their energy resonates on a purely subjective level. for example, I may walk by a bum helplessly munching a cereal bar, and notice his cowboy hat, the texture of his face, the quaint nostalgia of his plaid shirt, and associate this with a host of impressions from other experiences, that will ultimately lead me to anchor the social/economic designation with a more personalized sense of his purpose, or meaning. so the two aspects are inseparable in that way. however with the internal, it's always spontaneous and so mood-dependent; I'm pretty obsessive about tweaking my psychosomatic rhythms with respect to any environment, so typically I just maintain the operational standard so I don't lose footing and let undeserving people get the better of me... because ultimately it doesn't matter what happened in our past lives, just how we're coordinating now, and I am just a server.

[Absurd]

It's easy for me. Anyone who is against me, is against me.

[sicklittlepuppy]

It's more like me vs everyone else.

[Absurd]

It's more like me vs everyone else.

Don't tell me you hate gays as well.

Hehe.

[sicklittlepuppy]

Who's talking about gays ?

[Absurd]

Who's talking about gays ?

Ye, who does that?

Anyway, seems like my plan went to hell, well, some other time.

[The Ineffable]

Is an "us vs them" mentality type related?

Aristocracy then Ethics, IME. For different reasons; if the mentality you indicate is specific, then you should explain: I may identify it with only one of the two, or maybe with both at once (NF Ego).