Fi Types! How do you assist your dual's weak Fe?

[Diaphanous]

Wikisocion: "When people are criticized for their lack of attentiveness to their role function, they are often irritated because they are already well aware of the deficiency and have already tried and failed to correct it."

"Compared to the vulnerable function, role function criticism is easier for a person to respond to or dismiss, since they believe that it has some value, in theory."

How do I get my dual to listen to Fe advice?

So supposedly we're supposed to know that our role function is weak. For example, as an Fi type, I am acutely aware that my Ti is underdeveloped and I consider it a personal weakness that needs to be worked on (but which is ultimately not as useful or important as Fi in my worldview). I try to be receptive to well-intentioned "Ti advice." However, I tried to give an LSE a bit of role function advice since he made an Fe faux pas while in a social setting last night. It didn't end well.

This NT was trying to make jokes and they were just not very appropriate. They were either kind of risqué or "you had to be there" kind of jokes. But the NT was just trying to get everyone to laugh. So my very close LSE friend (who was drinking) would make a joke that made fun of the NT's joke, which would make everyone at the table laugh but then the poor NT would get all quiet because he was embarrassed. The LSE didn't mean to hurt the NT's feelings, obviously, but I wanted to let the LSE know that it seemed like he had.

I told the LSE on the phone today (thinking it would be better if I waited a day) that perhaps when someone creates an awkward moment it's typically better not to draw attention to that awkwardness because it might hurt the person's feelings. I told him it depends on the company he's in and that if he's not sure how the person will react, that it's better to just chuckle and skim over it, changing the subject or something.

Then I got called the "ethics police," was accused of creating my own awkwardness by not talking enough and then lectured for "scrutinizing" the LSE's "every comment and interaction," when it was the NT's "fault for saying awkward shit in the first place" and the LSE "was just trying to show him that to make him stop."

Am I supposed to help the LSE's weak Fe by smoothing over the situation WHILE it's happening? Because I didn't really know what to do last night, in the moment. So I talked to the LSE about it today, like I mentioned, and it just made him self-conscious and now I feel terrible. Perhaps it's better to just say nothing when that kind of thing happens. I mean, I'm sure the NT is fine and it doesn't really matter. And I know the LSE didn't mean any harm, but I thought I could help him avoid that in the future...

[Reuben]

Maybe that LSE was SLE with Fi-PoLR and hence hated your correction.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Bear in mind that this sort of advice is like hearing "You're stupid and I'm trying to make you less dumb."

[Diaphanous]

Maybe that LSE was SLE with Fi-PoLR and hence hated your correction.

I'm 99% sure he's LSE-Te. Also definitely an Enneagram 8, which might explain his reaction.

[ashlesha]

what makes you sure he didn't know what he was doing? was it a matter of informing him, or a matter of just telling him that he shouldn't?

[Diaphanous]

Bear in mind that this sort of advice is like hearing "You're stupid and I'm trying to make you less dumb."

I think there's always a risk that someone will hear that when they get any kind of criticism. I know I can be very sensitive. But I do a pretty decent job at being non-confrontational, polite, and diplomatic about it. I knew that there was a risk he would be offended and angry before I brought it up, but I also knew there was a chance he would view it as good advice to avoid hurting someone's feelings later, since it's important that he be on good Fi terms with the person.

[Diaphanous]

what makes you sure he didn't know what he was doing? was it a matter of informing him, or a matter of just telling him that he shouldn't?

Well, he knew what he was doing. I do think he had a mission in making fun of the guy's jokes. However, he did not intend to hurt the guy's feelings, which was an unfortunate side effect of his "correctional method." I informed him that it seemed like he hurt the guy's feelings and gave him a way to avoid doing that in case of a similar scenario. I tried really hard to not sound pedantic and give him a "mom speech," but maybe I failed.

[fen]

I wish this thread was more informational.

[ashlesha]

I'm not going to tell you how to type the guy but for me personally the only time I've had that problem has been with people I've typed fi polr. they're also the only ones I've had that kind of extensive "talk"with, cuz with people I communicate better with it happens more organically. just giving them a look or pulling them aside and saying hey why are you acting like a dick, and if it ends up being a conversation just telling them how I felt seeing it or my interpretation of it in an equal and conversational way, not with the intention of "teaching" something but just talking. I'm not sure of this is applicable as advice or anything, just my general experience with the kind of thing you're talking about.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Well, he knew what he was doing. I do think he had a mission in making fun of the guy's jokes. However, he did not intend to hurt the guy's feelings, which was an unfortunate side effect of his "correctional method." I informed him that it seemed like he hurt the guy's feelings and gave him a way to avoid doing that in case of a similar scenario. I tried really hard to not sound pedantic and give him a "mom speech," but maybe I failed.

Since it sounds like your LSE pal intended to put this other fellow in his place I doubt he's displeased at having succeeded in doing so. For that reason he probably interprets your correction-minded commentary as an effort to fix something that isn't broken. Similarly, one of my supposed duals recently upbraided me over something I found amusing and harmless, and her attempted socio-ethical fix didn't go over too well either.

Anyhow, if maintaining good ties with this NT is the impetus for your intervention with the LSE then I would begin with that since it probably holds common sense appeal. Otherwise, if you focus on the LSE's behavior and motivations it might simply sound like you're saying "I'm only trying to help you improve yourself because at present you aren't good enough." Even if it's said with the best intentions.

[Absurd]

How do I get my dual to listen to Fe advice?

I don't usually take it, unless a person I care for is affected in some way, that is, say I am with this dual person at a table or something and what you wrote happens.

Taking into account that:

1) I am comfortable with that person,

2) Know it is genuine,

3) That person has best interest in mind when it comes to such things.

Sure, I don't see a problem, although it is damn hard to back off but like I said, I would, seeing somebody I genuinely care for suffers because of it. Of course, it has to be justified - do not like being crucified for the sins of some other party. I'm no frigging Jesus.

[willekeurig]

I'm not going to tell you how to type the guy but for me personally the only time I've had that problem has been with people I've typed fi polr. they're also the only ones I've had that kind of extensive "talk"with, cuz with people I communicate better with it happens more organically. just giving them a look or pulling them aside and saying hey why are you acting like a dick, and if it ends up being a conversation just telling them how I felt seeing it or my interpretation of it in an equal and conversational way, not with the intention of "teaching" something but just talking. I'm not sure of this is applicable as advice or anything, just my general experience with the kind of thing you're talking about.

This is my experince as well. Well, there's one obviously unhealthy Te-LSE that I know who sometimes reacts to Fi advice in a bad way, but in general LSEs seem to find this kind of conversations helpful and reassuring.

[717495]

Fi Types! How do you assist your dual's weak Fe?

Why on earth would I want to assist anyone's Fe? Convert them? It's nice to have Te and Fi around.

[Diaphanous]

Why on earth would I want to assist anyone's Fe? Convert them? It's nice to have Te and Fi around.

Well, I guess technically it's Fi since I was concerned about the effect his jokes would make on his relationship with this guy. When I say "assist Fe" I mean that I thought the root cause of why the LSE made the joke was a consequence of poorly-wielded Fe, which gets in the way of good Fi.

[Diaphanous]

Thanks, guys.

I think the reason the LSE was rather dismissive of my advice was because he doesn't really like or respect the NT guy much to begin with, so he doesn't really see that he's losing anything. And maybe he's not but I still felt bad for the guy. Plus the LSE's tongue was a bit loose from the cocktails, haha.

[Korpsy Knievel]

[Beautiful sky]

I think there's always a risk that someone will hear that when they get any kind of criticism. I know I can be very sensitive. But I do a pretty decent job at being non-confrontational, polite, and diplomatic about it. I knew that there was a risk he would be offended and angry before I brought it up, but I also knew there was a chance he would view it as good advice to avoid hurting someone's feelings later, since it's important that he be on good Fi terms with the person.

That's your problem...EII are not known for diplomacy.

[Beautiful sky]

Well, I guess technically it's Fi since I was concerned about the effect his jokes would make on his relationship with this guy. When I say "assist Fe" I mean that I thought the root cause of why the LSE made the joke was a consequence of poorly-wielded Fe, which gets in the way of good Fi.

And...had he been an Fi VALUER he too would have been concerned about the effect his joke made on his relationship, especially if the relationship mattered to him, otherwise an LSE will do what they want. Another words, if he felt comfortable making that joke, and comfortable with losing his relation, if the joke hurt the guy's feelings then he would make it, but if he loved his relation as LSE love and value emotional ties in relations, he wouldn't have made that joke or would have and using his extraversion, would have gauged the effect it had on his own and would have jumped to make amends and apologies, like a sweetheart.

[marooned]

maybe he doesn't like the guy and doesn't want a "relationship" with him. maybe he thinks the guy is a stupid asshole. maybe he had a problem with the guy's jokes.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Then I got called the "ethics police," was accused of creating my own awkwardness by not talking enough and then lectured for "scrutinizing" the LSE's "every comment and interaction," when it was the NT's "fault for saying awkward shit in the first place" and the LSE "was just trying to show him that to make him stop."

Ive been in this scenario, and it honestly just sounds like a typical female:male gender disagreement. However, I have been in this scenario for things more relavent, such as people behaving like douche bags in public and not for some bad jokes at social scenario. I'd call you the same, though, and I'd resent the "pep talk" due to the way it was approached towards me. To me, this is an awkward scenario in itself. On one hand, you are expressing yourself, which is good. Also, he expressed himself at the place, which is also good. So who's expression, then, is "right"? That idea is what it ultimately comes down to, which is why the approach to the scenario is crucial. Otherwise, each will only become critical of the other, which is less that constructive.

[Creepy-pokeball]

maybe he doesn't like the guy and doesn't want a "relationship" with him. maybe he thinks the guy is a stupid asshole. maybe he had a problem with the guy's jokes.

I wondered that. Cutting other guys down in a socially stealthy way is not really that uncommon.

[Beautiful sky]

You don't approach an LSE that way Diaphanous. I've said this to you several times and I don't get why I have to. You should already be a natural with your dual. Nevermind, I do get it, because of how I type you.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Diaphanous, since you're hip to enneagram there's a book by Suzanne Zuercher that might be of interest, called Enneagram Companions — Growing in Relationships and Spiritual Direction. Zuercher divides each of the three main triads (234/567/891) into directors and directees to examine their inherent communication needs and styles. Then each type of directee is examined in greater detail. The general aim is to foster personal development through dialogue. Although Zuercher is a Benedictine nun (as well as a clinical psychologist) her book appears free of overtly religious coloring and she treats spirituality in a sufficiently broad sense that it could comprise anything from esoteric theology one might explore under the guidance of a guru (who is one sort of director) to everyday psychological concerns discussed with a friend.

[FDG]

It seems awkward to explicitly mention such occurrence over the phone. Talking to him while the situation was taking place would have made more sense.

Personally, I don´t mind when people tell me to shut up "in the moment", but if the reharse something I´ve done, I feel like they are being whiny and scolding.

[munenori2]

The key is to be the non-dickhole half.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

how do you type diaphanous,Maritsa?

Diaphanous the best solution in this case is prevention.Apparently,it takes someone who pays attention to his environment and can see when people have had one too many drinks and have started to roll their eyes and getting all impatient and about to drop a bomb or something.BTW you said he's your very close friend so if you're indeed an EII you'd see where things were heading.Whatever happened to the utility of the Fi bond combined with...intuition??THERE'S NO EXCUSE.NO.EXCUSE.WHATSOEVER @Maritsa Darmandzhyan, please,elaborate. Otherwise you could kind of "correct" the situation on the spot but it would take assertiveness and timing.Also,I think that afterwards it would be better to approach the NT than the LSE - or at least not to call the LSE just to point out what he did.Plus,the fact that you waited a day wasn't for the best since it shows that you've been thinking about it since it happened.Those logical types are more receptive when one tries to gloss over such mishaps but not so much when it comes to pointing out what they did wrong.


That old lady looks good, munenori2.

[Creepy-male]

Wikisocion: "When people are criticized for their lack of attentiveness to their role function, they are often irritated because they are already well aware of the deficiency and have already tried and failed to correct it."

"Compared to the vulnerable function, role function criticism is easier for a person to respond to or dismiss, since they believe that it has some value, in theory."

How do I get my dual to listen to Fe advice?

So supposedly we're supposed to know that our role function is weak. For example, as an Fi type, I am acutely aware that my Ti is underdeveloped and I consider it a personal weakness that needs to be worked on (but which is ultimately not as useful or important as Fi in my worldview). I try to be receptive to well-intentioned "Ti advice." However, I tried to give an LSE a bit of role function advice since he made an Fe faux pas while in a social setting last night. It didn't end well.

This NT was trying to make jokes and they were just not very appropriate. They were either kind of risqué or "you had to be there" kind of jokes. But the NT was just trying to get everyone to laugh. So my very close LSE friend (who was drinking) would make a joke that made fun of the NT's joke, which would make everyone at the table laugh but then the poor NT would get all quiet because he was embarrassed. The LSE didn't mean to hurt the NT's feelings, obviously, but I wanted to let the LSE know that it seemed like he had.

I told the LSE on the phone today (thinking it would be better if I waited a day) that perhaps when someone creates an awkward moment it's typically better not to draw attention to that awkwardness because it might hurt the person's feelings. I told him it depends on the company he's in and that if he's not sure how the person will react, that it's better to just chuckle and skim over it, changing the subject or something.

Then I got called the "ethics police," was accused of creating my own awkwardness by not talking enough and then lectured for "scrutinizing" the LSE's "every comment and interaction," when it was the NT's "fault for saying awkward shit in the first place" and the LSE "was just trying to show him that to make him stop."

Am I supposed to help the LSE's weak Fe by smoothing over the situation WHILE it's happening? Because I didn't really know what to do last night, in the moment. So I talked to the LSE about it today, like I mentioned, and it just made him self-conscious and now I feel terrible. Perhaps it's better to just say nothing when that kind of thing happens. I mean, I'm sure the NT is fine and it doesn't really matter. And I know the LSE didn't mean any harm, but I thought I could help him avoid that in the future...

Sounds relatively stupid. The entire thing, Steven Seagal should have just bust in halfway through the entire debacle and kicked everyone's ass without explanation.

First of I feel bad for the NT being awkward and embarrassed like that but it seems like from your description he let it get to him too much, they laughed at him and he got all quiet and butt hurt -- very bad move on his part. I hate situations like that, nothing is worse than being embarrassed and then let it show. People are so horrible about responding to this, either they have this attitude like "Yea I showed him *bro-flex*" or they are nice and try to be sympathetic but they do it in a dis-empowering way that's patronizing. Unfortunately this is how people will mostly meet you in response to such a situation so it either forces you to be a complete dick and continue to play out the asshole vibe that no one likes, because stopping is a clear act of submission to the embarrassment or the other option is to free-willingly isolate yourself from that group in realization that they don't get you. Continuing to seek the approval of people after you've been embarrassed like this immediately puts you in the socially inferior position -- you want their approval more than they want yours and thus you are the weaker member. If you play out the asshole vibe, you have to be sure to completely ignore attempts of others to poke your ego and forcefully poke their until they break down first -- either way from the moment you've been embarrassed like this no one will like you so what's the point in being nice? If they do like you it will be out of patronizing sympathy to mostly make themselves look like a good person by caring for the "poor social outcast" and is focused very little on allowing the person to redeem themselves or to become re-empowered. Likely the NT didn't realize this somewhat dark aspect of social interaction and thus will likely be relegated within this circle as a the "poor social outcast" who tries to act cool but everyone thinks is annoying -- he should just stop being butt hurt and find news jokes or new friends, and not let allow himself to continue to be relegated to some petty social role.

Now the LSE sounds like a dumb bully in all honesty. Anyone can make a comment or joke against someone who is awkward -- its not even hard and doesn't require wit, most people are just relieved someone stands up to be the asshole and says what they don't have the balls to say because they want to save face and be the nice person. This sounds like the LSE -- except he's also a baby, instead of owning his role as the asshole in the group, he gets all butt hurt himself and calls someone the ethics police because he wants to the "hero" of the group and gets a little upset when someone thinks he's mean and could have been nicer to the NT. Boo fucking hoo, seriously it was kind of a douchey move and he should have owned it or taken the advice and made an attempt next time to be more diplomatic instead of playing the asshole role. What I've discovered is there are a lot of people who will just suck things up and not confront their problems and when an asshole comes along and confront problems they agree with, then he will be the hero, and then over time when the asshole starts making the wrong moves and confront problems they don't agree with, he becomes the villian, and so forth. The guy is just as whiny imo for getting all butthurt over the fact he got criticized for not being nice enough -- you can't have it both ways, you can't be the hero all the time, reality doesn't work like that, sometimes people hate you for the decision you make, and well just own it or don't do it or make a different decision next time but don't whine about it.

This is the kind of shit that rubs off on people in a bad way, seriously in the big picture who really fucking cares -- fucking shitty ego games. Do people really even need socionics for this?

[mikemex]

LSEs can be tact-less.

[Beautiful sky]

how do you type diaphanous,Maritsa?

Diaphanous the best solution in this case is prevention.Apparently,it takes someone who pays attention to his environment and can see when people have had one too many drinks and have started to roll their eyes and getting all impatient and about to drop a bomb or something.BTW you said he's your very close friend so if you're indeed an EII you'd see where things were heading.Whatever happened to the utility of the Fi bond combined with...intuition??THERE'S NO EXCUSE.NO.EXCUSE.WHATSOEVER @Maritsa Darmandzhyan, please,elaborate. Otherwise you could kind of "correct" the situation on the spot but it would take assertiveness and timing.Also,I think that afterwards it would be better to approach the NT than the LSE - or at least not to call the LSE just to point out what he did.Plus,the fact that you waited a day wasn't for the best since it shows that you've been thinking about it since it happened.Those logical types are more receptive when one tries to gloss over such mishaps but not so much when it comes to pointing out what they did wrong.


That old lady looks good, munenori2.

I type her SEE because she's frequently inclined to feel insecure in her relationship and because of that she responds critically to him. She feels the need to be confrontational with him and not just let things go.

The way in which I would see myself handling this situation and perhaps the way in which I can see her doing so as well would be:
First of all I would let the LSE come to me to understand the problem; they are extraverts and quite keen about the emotions of the other individual; if the LSE notices and is bothered by the tension created by his comment, he would be concerned and often seek out advice as to how to correct or fix the relationship even if they made tactless remarks. I believe in the power of no words spoken communication; that is by the way we look to one another, we are able to express approval or disapproval or "get each other to understand that what the other is saying is just not right" and I would use this on the spot if I were expressing my opinion of an ethical dilemma. I would just look at him with maybe wide open eyes and LSE being good at reading external cues would know and get the hint that what I'm doing is just saying "you're going too far."

Not liking criticism of other's I would not push the person into feeling further guilt and shame, by calling them a day after the event to discuss the matter, especially if the person didn't call me first. Obviously the LSE in this case "wanted him to stop" and having this in mind as a goal, approached the situation with a thought, so he wasn't being entirely without sense.

What D...writes here:

"I told the LSE on the phone today (thinking it would be better if I waited a day) that perhaps when someone creates an awkward moment it's typically better not to draw attention to that awkwardness because it might hurt the person's feelings. I told him it depends on the company he's in and that if he's not sure how the person will react, that it's better to just chuckle and skim over it, changing the subject or something."

I told this and I told that....sounds like Se because she's comfortable with direct behavior; she directly confronts him. I just wait for people to come to me to get advice. I just forgive and move on; I just think that sometimes people should work out their own problems; I will do other things to preserve the sanctity of the relationship, like go up to the other person, as I'm attracted to those who need help, and asked if they are ok; you don't know if the NT was really hurt or not just because he got quiet; maybe the NT appreciates someone who is honest and forthcoming like the LSE was and maybe he will appreciate the LSE's directness in that particular situation. Sounds like someone who wants to be in control and boss people around; sounds like someone who is critical, sounds like someone who is Se. And, because she doesn't gauge the emotions of the NT, she can in her own limited view without Ne, try to approach the situation from a "direct view" situation; who ever is in her direct "objective" view - her boyfriend - is going to be the person who will receive her input. And what is the "purpose" of this? What the purpose of SEE is, which is to have INFLUENCE over people. She wants to make an impart with him, to confront him.

information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. ; It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.; She tries to Manage him and his activities. lol

She thinks, "hey, this is the way I think things should be or should have been" and by calling him up is essentially trying to impose her will on him.

[Beautiful sky]

As an base type, I focus more on the what goes on in the individual internally; in the BF, in the NT and as an base she focuses more on the external happenings of the event, on the "awkwardness" of the situation or the created scenario, aka "the space." I just try to understand or view if he got hurt or not, if he was hurt or not, then no hurt feelings, then nothing needs to get into the "ethical" realm and nothing here is moral so I don't concern myself with it, besides it's too petty and small of a situation.

SEE - Acquiring social territory and influencing people.

EII - Believe that coercive behavior should be eradicated altogether.

But, if you're calling someone up in regards to the situation, how how how are you eradicating the behavior, (by confronting it so that you make the possibility of creating another situation out of it?) you expect to rub sense into it, endlessly? NO. you eradicate it by NOT mentioning it.

[FDG]

Maritsa, please....

[Creepy-pokeball]

This is exactly how it tends to make me react, as if the person is basically stating "you are flawed in my eyes… but, if you did X, it'd make me feel better towards you."

If I let myself play into it and try to live up to their expectations, the whole thing will start to hangover like a bad ultimatum that makes me uncomfortably self-conscious. Plus I know they're bound to be even more disappointed when same or similar behavior happens from me again—doubly compounded by the fact that they're likely building up a self-fulfilling prophecy in their mind as well and anticipating 'the inevitable', or projecting an unrealistic idealization that I've somehow undergone a permanent change in my character resulting from their correction such that the "bad behavior " won't happen again.

Yes. It is going to happen again. Fun times

[Creepy-pokeball]

The key is to be the non-dickhole half.

I see two dickholes Those clothes cant really save them =/

[ashlesha]

in a relationship thats equal (well i'm thinking of how duality theoretically is, but in general, too), it seems you'd be interested in hearing out what the other person had to say about it. like what loki said. his feelings about the NT are valid too and maybe if you listen to him you'll find merit in the way he reacted or what he had to say about it. just the whole idea of "showing him the way" sat uncomfortably when i read the op. you'd already decided he behaved incorrectly and went into it accordingly. it makes me wonder if it had to do with preconceived notions due to knowing about types or if you've always just seen yourself as some kind of ethical teacher, or what. it seems an odd way to approach someone you see yourself on equal footing with. i dunno, i mean there are times i see people i conceive of as equal to me doing flat-out stupid things, and i might approach them in a superior way, yeah. i guess the tone of the op just gave me the impression you see him as inherently and fundamentally screwed up in that area and yourself as Doing the Right Thing and i dunno if its typology making you think its just that simple or what, but it almost never is.

[Creepy-pokeball]

This makes me wonder: Are we all critical at some level?

[ashlesha]

This makes me wonder: Are we all critical at some level?

what do you mean? we all have opinions, so of course.

[Creepy-pokeball]

what do you mean? we all have opinions, so of course.

What is critical to one may not be ciritical to another, and so on. It is part of the human experience, in my perception. Which isnt to say that I like it, but I'd be blind to say that it does not exist.

[Galen]

How do I get my dual to listen to Fe advice?

Why would you want him to in the first place? If it's something that neither of you value or prioritize then there's no point in trying to get him to go along with it.

And pretty much agreed w/ the conversation thus far. Any time I've had people try to change me or see me as their "project" solely seeks to fulfill the other person's (generally false) conception of who I am and what I can be, and it has never worked out for either of us. They get frustrated at what seems to them like a deformity, and I end up resenting the person for trying to "fix" something that was never flawed in the first place. These have generally revolved around my perception of/adherence to group interactions and dynamics, where not wanting to interact with loud and obnoxious people I've only laid eyes on 6 seconds prior is considered a character flaw.

These interventions are generally presented on behalf of other people they feel *might* be made uncomfortable by my actions, not the people themselves. There's no point in someone telling me what they think someone else thinks about my actions, since it'll only be from their own perspective and their own biases towards who they think the two parties are. If my actions directly make someone uncomfortable, not because of how they think it may be seen by others but through whatever personal issues they may have with it, then I want to hear it straight from the source. Anybody else's opinion would only serve to make his/her own opinion sound self-important without him/her having direct relevance to the real issue.

So if the NT was so offended by what the LSE had to say, then the NT should be the one responsible for bringing it up, not you. Otherwise you're simply butting in on other people's drama without being seen as connected to the incident other than "I was there."