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Thread: Racism, profiling and culturalism

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    Default Racism, profiling and culturalism.

    There's very much in my mind about this topic and I'll try to sum what I want this thread to be about. Most of these issues are probably ones that you've been dealing with. This is still unfinished and I'll edit it later.

    If it has stripes and claws, it's probably a tiger. But not necessarily.

    Profiling is inevitable due to our nature. If I read statistics that men with black hoodies and sunglasses are more likely to be criminals, I'd adjust my actions accordingly. Making judgements (more often not moral ones) based on the factors visible on the surfae is a matter of choice only to a degree. I refuse to accuse myself of being a racist when I try to score hash and I see shady black men with that certain look.

    The burden of the white man

    White heterosexual man's guilt from being the oppressors in the history books. This is a form of discrimination directed at self because one belongs to the same groups than did the nazis, slavers, global imperialists and so on.

    Apparently even Finns were responsible of slavery too since some of the slave galleys had tar from Finland like a certain Finnish historian was eager to point out along with our collective "debt to the third world".

    Just see how well accusing white men of racism has sometimes worked: "You saying that because I'm black?" and they blush and apologetic. I can imagine situations where it could affect me. I have gained some scorn from a certain black Somali woman as we were discussing about female genital mutilation and I just made fairly innocent statement which involved the assumption that most of these operations were not made in the first world, but in middle parts of Africa. The discussion ended shortly as I was labeled "ignorant" and probably a racist for assuming something that is a statistic fact.

    I still sometimes feel more comfortable if I discreetly slip/show that I have non-white friends and a feminist black ex-gf.

    The immunity of the lesbian negro jew

    It is also very common to create this certain image of a white heterosexual man who is the source of inequality and retarded conservatism. In Finland, it's a hairy wifebeater patriot who watches hockey, goes to sauna, drinks beer and eats sausage. It is often true to some degree, like many stereotypes, but rare dare to say that it's the anti-patriotic liberal blacks who are messing this country. Although I don't agree with the latter, I sometimes hope that I would have been a black woman with moslem-breeding just that I could have the freedom to say things that would have been otherwise seen as racist. Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Shrug. I didn't enslave anybody, so I'm not going to feel guilty for jack shit.

    I could care less what race somebody is and I'm tired of having the subject of race vomited in my face by regressive intellectuals and policymakers.

    The sooner people shut up about race, the better we'll all get along.
    I SAID SAY IT AGAIN BROTHA ASSSSSH-TONNNNN
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    nah, people shouldn't shut up about it but they should talk about it honestly. as it is there are certain scripts that you're expected to follow and that's just not constructive. pc'ness and "shutting up about it" are both different kinds of repression.

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    I've always tried to remain conscious of the group dynamic versus the individual. If you want to approach something scientifically, you need to look at the aggregate for some approximation and pattern. This is entirely valid in my view, and I generally accept social policy on this basis. HOWEVER, there needs to be concessions for the individual. For example, there are Christians out there who are accepting of homosexuality, there are ethnic middle easterners who are atheists, and there are white men who've faced a lot of shit. This is nothing new. I believe most people understand and follow this principle. However, it tends to get lost in debate and dialectic since it's generally easier.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    If it has stripes and claws, it's probably a tiger. But not necessarily.
    It is a bear.

    The burden of the white man
    Flowers.

    The immunity of the lesbian negro jew
    Handkerchief.

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    The way I see it, prejudice is a basic and necessary component of human psychology that may very well have contributed to the survival of our evolutionary antecedents. I believe it remains an important function in daily life and our social interactions. Everybody does it to some extent, whether they realize it or not. The problem is when people judge too harshly and take it at face value, that is what makes a bigot.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I've been subject to racism from blacks, whites, asians. I've been prejudiced and biased in my life. Am I a racist, I would like to think I'm not. Am I cognizant of race, I most certainly am. There's a host of unconscious and conscious thoughts concerning race in one's subjective experience, how do we deal with these unconscious and conscious preferences so that we provide for a fair, just and benevolent evaluation, how do we help turn the tide and circumstances of the past so that our future is brighter.

    These might seem like naive ideals, but it's no more naive then thinking that the world will be ugly, decrepit and unfair in perpetuity without any hope. No, I choose to be stupid, naive and somewhat idealistic about this, it doesn't matter if black/white/asian/whatever people have oppressed me, because it's all about changing that. It's about changing that, it's a difficult thing for sure, but why not.

    People aren't perfect, but if you talk reasonable to a lot of people, they will be ok with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    The sooner people shut up about race, the better we'll all get along.
    Do you think series like South Park and the BoonDocks hinder this process when they bring out issues involving discrimination?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I've been subject to racism from blacks, whites, asians. I've been prejudiced and biased in my life.
    Would you consider this discrimination fundamentally different from, say, someone being discriminated against because he is a fat nerd? Besides the fact that you are born into a race/ethnicity.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Do you think series like South Park and the BoonDocks hinder this process when they bring out issues involving discrimination?
    Considering they usually offer a similar perspective to what Ashton promotes, I would doubt it. Seen the SP episode about the town flag?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Considering they usually offer a similar perspective to what Ashton promotes, I would doubt it. Seen the SP episode about the town flag?
    Probably. Can't recall right now. Seen "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" where Randy becomes a "nigger guy" for saying the n-word on national TV?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Would you consider this discrimination fundamentally different from, say, someone being discriminated against because he is a fat nerd? Besides the fact that you are born into a race/ethnicity.
    Sure it's different, fat nerds are ewwwww...



    Would I hire a morbidly obese individual to be a Victoria secret model, no. There's a lot of everyday prejudice and everyday discrimination that occurs in the world, we give and we take in these areas of life because people aren't perfect. However there have been measures in the present and past which disenfranchise individuals or problems which arise from these everyday prejudices that result in harm. Things like poll taxes or laws to restrict voting rights in order to disenfranchise individuals in society, or the death penalty which is applied unequally for the same crime because of the color of someone's skin or based on ethnic background.

    The world is not equal, fair or just, people are not the same. We can only hope to do what we can in the face of inequality, unfairness and injustice. We can only hope to give everyone a fair shake at opportunity, give some aid to those that have been wronged, and make what amends which can be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    There's a lot of everyday prejudice and everyday discrimination that occurs in the world, we give and we take in these areas of life because people aren't perfect.
    Explaining the problem to be the lack of perfection is a fairly vague approach.

    To everyone:
    Two equally qualified candidates are looking trying to land a job from you. The other one apparently belongs to a group that has higher rates of crime and antisocial behavior. Which one do you hire?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post

    Two equally qualified candidates are looking trying to land a job from you. The other one apparently belongs to a group that has higher rates of crime and antisocial behavior. Which one do you hire?
    The other one so he/she can kill people for me and I wouldn't have to get my hands dirty.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Explaining the problem to be the lack of perfection is a fairly vague approach.

    To everyone:
    Two equally qualified candidates are looking trying to land a job from you. The other one apparently belongs to a group that has higher rates of crime and antisocial behavior. Which one do you hire?
    My approach isn't vague, I'm just explaining the situation.

    This shouldn't be considered and is against the law in the US "The other one apparently belongs to a group that has higher rates of crime and antisocial behavior."

    Since I've rarely met two equally qualified candidates to hire. Generally each individual has some advantage and some disadvantage, the hiring process is about finding the right fit for the position.

    If I were to find two truly equal candidates(or I couldn't tell) to hire, I would flip a coin. Also if the 2 candidates was of very high quality, I would hire both of them, or ensure that I could have the opportunity to hire them in the future.

    Once you place the situation in reality, you see quickly that this hypothetical situation almost never happens, and generally this is just a excuse to discriminate against the individual that belongs to a certain group.

    When dealing with complex systems the ceteris paribus argument is not functional.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus

    Quote Originally Posted by W Ross Ashby
    Science stands today on something of a divide. For two centuries it has been exploring systems that are either intrinsically simple or capable of being analysed into simple components. The fact that such a dogma as >>vary the factors one at a time<< could be accepted for a century shows that scientists were largely concerned in investigating such systems as allowed this method, for this method is often fundamentally impossible in the complex systems. Not until Sir Ronald Fisher's work in the 1920s, with experiments conducted on agricultural soils, did it become clearly recognised that there are complex systems that just do not allow the varying of only one factor at a time — they are so dynamic and interconnected that the alteration of one factor
    immediately acts as cause to evoke alterations in others, perhaps in a great many others. Until recently, science tended to evade the study of such systems, focusing its attention on those that were simple and, especially, reducible
    Ceteris paribus is a useful technique for scientific investigation where single factors can be discretely manipulated, but when applied to fundamentally complex situations such as ethics, it's not functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    The charge, then, is that ineliminable ceteris paribus clauses in an analysis conceal a conceptual circularity. Jerry Fodor in "Psychosemantics" states that a statement of the form Ceteris paribus A is equivalent to saying, A...unless not A, making them vacuously true and really rather pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Explaining the problem to be the lack of perfection is a fairly vague approach.

    To everyone:
    Two equally qualified candidates are looking trying to land a job from you. The other one apparently belongs to a group that has higher rates of crime and antisocial behavior. Which one do you hire?
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    @hkkmr
    It was a thought play and you knew what I was after for. Yet you wanted to bring out a list of irrelevancies:
    -The option of hiring them both: The word "which one" meant which one of the several possibilities.
    -That you shouldn't think about it and it is illegal in the country you are positioned in: Sorry, I thought illegally.
    -The irrelevant fact that their qualification is relative to the position: The applicants are equally qualified for that position.
    -Ceteris Paribus: TL;DR

    I asked a simple question and you yet again managed to bore the forum. Sometimes if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Or it has to be covered with irrelevant bullshit.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    If they are both equally qualified then it doesn't matter who is hired, and on what basis (or lack of) were they hired afterwards, does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    If they are both equally qualified then it doesn't matter who is hired, and on what basis (or lack of) were they hired afterwards, does it?
    The question assumed that their credentials and their habitus in the interview were equally promising but the other one belonged to a group with higher rates of antisocial behavior and crime.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    The question assumed that their credentials and their habitus in the interview were equally promising but the other one belonged to a group with higher rates of antisocial behavior and crime.
    I get it and do not want to sound weird or something but your point is?

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    Regardless, why does it matter if I hired either of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Regardless, why does it matter if I hired either of them?
    It does matter, you pay them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Regardless, why does it matter if I hired either of them?
    According to odds what we can reduce from the statistics known, it is more probable that the other is engaging or will engage in criminal or antisocial behavior.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    According to odds what we can reduce from the statistics known, it is more probable that the other is engaging or will engage in criminal or antisocial behavior.
    That's the realm of mathematics and probability theory. The way you present it, both of them are going to engage in "criminal and antisocial behaviour" respectively. And again, I do not know what is the point of this thread.

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    How likely is it that they will damage my business in any way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    How likely is it that they will damage my business in any way?
    Will you choose differently if the one with the sign of crime/anti-social behavior is a little likelier vs. almost certain to damage your business? I'd go with the option that is perceived to be safer in both of the cases.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    And that's that's what one of employers did when a tattooed friend of mine has been applying. He said to him, you've got tattoos - you're going to steal stuff. So he hired a guy without tattoos and that guy stole from him.

    But it was a really long time ago. Anyhow, it boils down to the employers take on it and what kind of job you want to do and again, and again, I do not know what this is about...

    ...I mean are you raging against something you're responsible yourself or something you didn't have control over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    The question assumed that their credentials and their habitus in the interview were equally promising but the other one belonged to a group with higher rates of antisocial behavior and crime.
    Conditioning for qualification, such difference might very well disappear (and, if I can correctly recal the literature, they tend to more than disappear i.e. the gradient is stronger for people pertaining to "disadvantaged" minorities.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Will you choose differently if the one with the social stigmata is a little likelier vs. almost certain to damage your business? I'd go with the option that is perceived to be safer in both of the cases.
    Probably. If there is room to make guesses then I'd rather follow my own hunch.

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    Some people would see this kind of speculating being an act of racism. And I can see that I'm a racist in it's strict definition, although I'd still discriminate a typical person who identifies himself as a full-blown racist.

    One aspect I've been thinking that minorities too will, consciously and subconsciously, assimilate and imitate their reference groups which makes these kind of reductions culturalist as well.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    A racist is a racist, there's no such thing as a full blown racist, not so very yet racist, almost racist, etc.

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    How is that racist? I didn't even specifiy what option I'd go with.

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    Actually, in Finland there is some legislation that out of the equally qualified applicants to be hired for a municipal job, you have to choose the one with the immigration background. This is racism too but it doesn't bother me.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    How is that racist? I didn't even specifiy what option I'd go with.
    I didn't address you. Making a choice where the race is a factor is racist.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    This thread is bonkers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Actually, in Finland there is some legislation that out of the equally qualified applicants to be hired for a municipal job, you have to choose the one with the immigration background. This is racism too but it doesn't bother me.
    Immigration background?

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    lol aqua

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Immigration background?
    Or is a humanitarian immigrant or a child of such. I don't know the precise term nor it's definition.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    TIM
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    It's fine, I understood what you were talking about.

  40. #40
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    TIM
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    Ehhh, now you're talking about actual refugees but I take it you meant immigrants as in non EU immigrants.

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