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Thread: Derail-YaY Religion

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    Default Derail-YaY Religion

    lol you guys are dicks

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I thought it was the devil wanting him to live longer in this world. Wouldn't a guardian angel take him straight to heaven?
    Guardian Angels only support God's purpose. Evidently God has a purpose for him on earth yet...

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    For sure. Young people who die from accidents and illness are useless. That's why God lets them die. Amen.

    Population control. Hallelujah.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    Sorry that looks mean. God's plan is just a serious pet peeve of mine. As someone who has sat through many many enraptured exclamations of "God's plan." You know at a certain point you're really just trying to make yourself feel better rather than the person who is actually mourning.

    Pro tip: don't say that shit unless you know that the person listening is a Christian especially if someone HAS died, because it just makes the rest of us feel miserable.

    A friend of mine had several miscarriages and I swear I think the "God's plan" bullshit damaged her just as much as the loss of her babies.

    Anyway! I'm oversensitive to it and I know you we're just trying to be nice,Eliza.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    You know I really just wanted to see how much you would write in response to two sentences. Haha.
    No other topic is more important and explains better the demise of our society than the saga of Scapegrace. Although not without overlap and simplification, I plan to identify three primary positions on Scapegrace's offhand remarks. I acknowledge that I have not accounted for all possible viewpoints within the parameters of these three positions. Nevertheless, in a vain effort to exculpate herself, Scapegrace has been proclaiming to the world that she has done no wrong. Rather, it was her apologists who have been numbing the public to the conspiracism and injustice in mainstream politics. I suppose the next thing she'll have us believe is that she is a woman of peace.

    Scapegrace's obtrusive spin doctors are congenitally unable to grasp the fact that I draw strength and courage from knowing that most people comprehend the crusade to stop Scapegrace and are supportive of my role in it. The reason is simple: Scapegrace owns drawers and boxes full of legal documents, which she is convinced prove her position. That's pretty transparent. What's not so transparent is the answer to the following question: Why does Scapegrace think that her barbs are intelligent, commonsensical, and entirely consonant with the views of ordinary people? A clue might be that she is truly up to something. I don't know exactly what, but I like to speak of Scapegrace as "abominable". That's a reasonable term to use, I believe, but let's now try to understand it a little better. For starters, sometime in the future she will lock people up for reading the "wrong" classes of books or listening to the "wrong" types of music. Fortunately, that hasn't happened…yet. But it will obviously happen if we don't build a sane and healthy society free of Scapegrace's destructive influences.

    Let me relate to you the most incontrovertibly true statement I've ever heard: "Scapegrace's arrogance will lead her to tip the scales in Scapegrace's favor when you least expect it." Whoever said that clearly understood that Scapegrace's cock-and-bull stories are continually evolving into more and more odious incarnations. Here, I'm not just talking about evolution in a simply Darwinist sense; I'm also talking about how groupthink and mob behavior are common within Scapegrace's cabal. Hence, it isn't unusual for one who commits heresy against Scapegrace's established dogma to be exiled from the community. The sad part is that these outcasts still refuse to believe that if Scapegrace's plan to glamorize drug usage is to be discouraged then the wisest course of action is to expand people's understanding of Scapegrace's bleeding-heart, brutal press releases. Before we start down that road I ought to remind you that the facts as I see them simply do not support the false but widely accepted notion that she values our perspectives.

    Whether you call it "irreligionism", "Oblomovism", or "misoneism", it is alive and well in Scapegrace's diatribes. It's what convinced me that Scapegrace is not interested in what is true and what is false or in what is good and what is evil. In fact, those distinctions have no meaning to her whatsoever. The only thing that has any meaning to Scapegrace is wowserism. Why? The answer I shall provide is broad, plain, and even more than sufficient. You see, Scapegrace coins polysyllabic neologisms to make her ipse dixits sound like they're actually important. In fact, her treatises are filled to the brim with words that have yet to appear in any accepted dictionary. But this is something to be filed away for future letters. At present, I wish to focus on only one thing: the fact that when one looks at the increasing influence of egoism in our culture one sees that Scapegrace's signature is on everything. So how come her fingerprints are nowhere to be found? Whatever the answer, Scapegrace ducks the issue of terrorism by using words and phrases so vague and subject to interpretation that they have no true meaning at all. If you don't believe me, see for yourself.

    Next time, Scapegrace, you may want to check your facts correctly. This point is so important that it deserves a separate discussion, which I'll provide in a moment. But first, let me just say that whenever people fail to fall for Scapegrace's nocuous deceptions, she tries leading them to the slaughterhouse via the back entrance. If that ploy still doesn't work, Scapegrace then sics her blood-drenched, murderous camp in all of its resplendent foulness upon them. She likes to nourish peevish ideologies. Such activity can flourish only in the dark, however. If you drag it into the open, Scapegrace and her followers will run for cover like cockroaches in a dirty kitchen when the light is turned on suddenly during the night. That's why we must put to rest the animosities that have kept various groups of people from enjoying anything other than superficial unity.

    Even when the facts don't fit, Scapegrace sometimes tries to use them anyway. She still maintains, for instance, that there is an international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. She has hatched all sorts of infantile, hideous plans. Remember Scapegrace's attempt to promote racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide? No? That's because Scapegrace is so good at concealing her sophomoric, presumptuous activities. This serves as a reminder that Scapegrace's approach is generally to seize upon an anecdote or a narrow and limited manifestation and/or purpose, and then totally blow it out of proportion to justify her silly commentaries. To cap that off, a bunch of headstrong rattlebrains have recently been accused of creating a kind of psychic pain at the very root of the modern mind. Scapegrace's fingerprints are all over that operation. Even if it turns out that she is not ultimately responsible for instigating it, the sheer amount of her involvement demands answers. For instance, why can't we all just get along? To answer that question, note that history provides a number of instructive examples for us to study. For instance, it has long been the case that when Scapegrace tells us that our country's security, prestige, and financial interests are best served by war and the ever-present threat of war, she somehow fails to mention that she combines greed and bloodlust into a single persona. She fails to mention that at least 80 percent of the people in this country recognize that she seeks out groups of people who have united against her then tries to atomize them. And she fails to mention that she is typical of clueless, liberticidal schlumps in her wild invocations to the irrational, the magic, and the fantastic to dramatize her doctrines.

    Everybody loves a good game of hide-and-seek: find the person, find the hidden item, or, in Scapegrace's case, find the hidden agenda. Scapegrace is always prating about how she's merely trying to make this world a better place in which to live. (She used to say that children don't need as much psychological attentiveness, protection, and obedience training as the treasured household pet, but the evidence is too contrary so she's given up on that score.) She is an opportunist. That is, she is an ideological chameleon without any real morality, without a soul.

    In keeping with all of their inner unambitious brutality, Scapegrace's mercenaries threaten the common good. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that Scapegrace is not an ill-natured kleptomaniac. There are various philosophical arguments that one could use to contradict that assuption, but perhaps the best involves the observation that Scapegrace claims to be fighting for equality. What she's really fighting for, however, is equality in degradation, by which I mean that if Scapegrace wanted to, she could stonewall on issues in which taxpayers see a vital public interest. She could convince innocent children to follow a path that leads only to a life of crime, disappointment, and destruction. And she could dam the flow of effective communication. We must sincerely not allow Scapegrace to do any of these.

    Scapegrace's famuli consider her blandishments a breath of fresh air. I, however, find them more like the fetid odor of feudalism. If I, not being one of the many uninformed fanatics of this world, weren't so forgiving, I'd have to say that many people lie. However, Scapegrace lies with such ease it's troubling. Cuckoo vandalism is a disgrace to humanity but it cannot be eliminated by moral lectures or by pious intentions. No, it can be eradicated only if we reinforce what is best in people.

    Unfortunately, foul-mouthed, intransigent Zoilists who pull the levers of alcoholism and oil the gears of colonialism make no effort to contend with the inevitable consequences of that action. Many people have witnessed Scapegrace trample over the very freedoms and rights that she claims to support. Scapegrace generally insists that her witnesses are mistaken and blames her ludibrious ethics on mischievous sybarites. It's like she has no-fault insurance against personal responsibility. What's more, I do not appreciate being labeled. No one does. Nevertheless, Scapegrace's asseverations have kept us separated for too long from the love, contributions, and challenges of our brothers and sisters in this wonderful adventure we share together—life! Help me plant markers that define the limits of what is grungy and what is not. Join your hands with mine in this, the greatest cause of our time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Guardian Angels only support God's purpose. Evidently God has a purpose for him on earth yet...
    He wants him to get revenge on that drunk driver?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Sorry that looks mean. God's plan is just a serious pet peeve of mine. As someone who has sat through many many enraptured exclamations of "God's plan." You know at a certain point you're really just trying to make yourself feel better rather than the person who is actually mourning.

    Pro tip: don't say that shit unless you know that the person listening is a Christian especially if someone HAS died, because it just makes the rest of us feel miserable.

    A friend of mine had several miscarriages and I swear I think the "God's plan" bullshit damaged her just as much as the loss of her babies.

    Anyway! I'm oversensitive to it and I know you we're just trying to be nice,Eliza.
    Thanks for that kind last statement, Scapegrace.

    When you suffer loss, people will always say lot of wrong things, you cannot escape it. "God's plan" for the loss of a child is just another one of those wrong things. Worse would be "You are helping population control". Yup, there are worse ways one could have attempted to console your friend.

    A good friend of mine lost several children through miscarriage, and I felt her pain through all of it. I never said, "Its God's plan" but I would have said the truth, "God has a plan for you." And I know that God suffers for us when we suffer and that He can - and does - make good come out of the bad. (There is a reason the "phoenix rising from the ashes" is a universally favorite image). My friend, along with her many miscarriages -- her many children in heaven -- now has three healthy well-loved children on earth, and a dear little angel of a child who lived but 17 well-loved days. And my friend encountered many wrong attempts at comfort in her sorely felt-losses, however, she was able to see them for what they were: attempts at comfort, however misguided, and therefore was able to take some comfort in them anyway.

    A serious pet peeve I have is the grossly-intolerant view gaining popularity in today's culture that there is some entitlement to live in an atheist-only society, and that if one has a lively working faith, all references to it must be kept strictly out of anyone's earshot. And I will never kowtow to such bigotry.

    Okay, now I am going to read @Absurd's post #38 here yet again. Wow. Looks like you have a lot to answer for, Scapegrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Thanks for that kind last statement, Scapegrace.

    When you suffer loss, people will always say lot of wrong things, you cannot escape it. "God's plan" for the loss of a child is just another one of those wrong things. Worse would be "You are helping population control". Yup, there are worse ways one could have attempted to console your friend.

    A good friend of mine lost several children through miscarriage, and I felt her pain through all of it. I never said, "Its God's plan" but I would have said the truth, "God has a plan for you." And I know that God suffers for us when we suffer and that He can - and does - make good come out of the bad. (There is a reason the "phoenix rising from the ashes" is a universally favorite image). My friend, along with her many miscarriages -- her many children in heaven -- now has three healthy well-loved children on earth, and a dear little angel of a child who lived but 17 well-loved days. And my friend encountered many wrong attempts at comfort in her sorely felt-losses, however, she was able to see them for what they were: attempts at comfort, however misguided, and therefore was able to take some comfort in them anyway.

    A serious pet peeve I have is the grossly-intolerant view gaining popularity in today's culture that there is some entitlement to live in an atheist-only society, and that if one has a lively working faith, all references to it must be kept strictly out of anyone's earshot. And I will never kowtow to such bigotry.

    Okay, now I am going to read @Absurd's post #38 here yet again. Wow. Looks like you have a lot to answer for, Scapegrace.
    Jesus Christ please stop or get a church
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Jesus Christ please stop or get a church
    FDG, why so rude? Are you one of the people that run others off this site with your rudeness?

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Yes. He's an instrument of God's Plan.
    Lol
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    "Some entitlement to live in an atheist-only society"

    How do you know that I'm not a Sikh? I'm just not particularly fond of the American assumption that everyone is Christian.

    And no. I really can't think of anything worse to say to a grieving mother than basically "God wanted your child to die. "
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    "Some entitlement to live in an atheist-only society"

    How do you know that I'm not a Sikh? I'm just not particularly fond of the American assumption that everyone is Christian.

    And no. I really can't think of anything worse to say to a grieving mother than basically "God wanted your child to die. "
    Well, that's a straw man. I have never heard of any Christian saying anything like that, and I bet I've known a lot more Christians than you.

    Not that there cannot be a mentally deranged Christian who would day that, in the same way any person of faith or o faith might be mentally deranged. But its very wrong AND lacks logic to claim that all of his people-group are deranged because he is.

    I also can't stand it when people bear false witness. A Christian belief that most humans accept as a universal good is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Yes. He's an instrument of God's Plan.
    I guess when you create your own religion from scratch anything goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I think an atheist-only society would be great. I personally view religious belief to be a form of mental illness.

    In a just world, those who hold religious beliefs would be institutionalized, and failing a swift thorough recovery, summarily euthanized.
    I don't think you will find many people who want to go to this world with you though. But you will always find some!

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    To Eliza:

    Your intentions may be good but as one who has experienced more miscarriages than I can now put a number to I would like you to think about how that seemingly continuous pain hurts a female, makes her feel useless, that her body/her whole being is useless, is it all ones own fault...did I do something wrong to deserve this, does anybody really care/understand or desire to help. God the creator of life must hate her and feel that she is unworthy to carry and mother/teach/love a child.
    It makes one question their entire life and all their beliefs.
    It makes one question if anything matters and if their life of pain ended whether their belief of anything more would hold true.
    Should one just end their own pain?
    Has one's whole life been a lie?
    Thankfully for myself when I broke down after my fifth miscarriage and questioned everything, I found that at the end of all this is my belief that something did not come from nothing it had to come from something and that something is what I call God or my creator and this helped pull me through.

    My youngest is 20 years old now and I am so incredibly thankful to having my 3 children at a young age before my immunity problems started causing the miscarriages but that is 20 years of all sorts of thoughts and feelings on the matter...pain, guilt, hurt, betrayal.....feeling not loved, not good enough, not worthy.....

    I came to terms with the fact that I would never have another child some years back and now I no longer try.

    There is really nothing that one can say or do for when one goes through a situation like this but give them and more
    Last edited by Shay; 09-20-2012 at 07:01 PM.

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well, that's a straw man. I have never heard of any Christian saying anything like that, and I bet I've known a lot more Christians than you.

    Not that there cannot be a mentally deranged Christian who would day that, in the same way any person of faith or o faith might be mentally deranged. But its very wrong AND lacks logic to claim that all of his people-group are deranged because he is.

    I also can't stand it when people bear false witness. A Christian belief that most humans accept as a universal good is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
    I didn't didn't write that Christians literally say "God wanted your baby to die," but that's the implication of saying "it was God's plan" after someone loses a child, is it not?

    You really think you know more Christians than me? I did grow up primarily in the South and I do happen to live in Mexico. I know quite a few of the little buggers. Some are them are lovely. I probably would have starved a few times without church people.

    As for your last comments I didn't think Christians were mentally deranged until I read them. What are you talking about?
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayley View Post
    To Eliza:

    Your intentions may be good but as one who has experienced more miscarriages than I can now put a number to I would like you to think about how that seemingly continuous pain hurts a female, makes her feel useless, that her body/her whole being is useless, does anybody really care, understand or desire to help. God the creator of life must hate her and feel that she is unworthy to carry a child.
    It makes one question their entire life and all their beliefs.
    It makes one question if anything matters and if their life of pain ended whether their belief of anything more would hold true.
    Should one just end their own pain?
    Has one's whole life been a lie?
    Thankfully for myself when I broke down after my fifth miscarriage and questioned everything, I found that at the end of all this is my belief that something did not come from nothing it had to come from something and that something is what I call God or my creator and this helped pull me through.
    I hope I did not say anything to minimize the great pain of infertility. I have only experienced the pain of a husband who insisted on putting off childbearing year after year, and I did not want to be dishonest and say "oops" so my reward for my honesty is I have one child instead of the many I wanted. That was for me a dream that died very hard, and the years of waiting, in obedience to God and what seemed right and His will, were very sad. It took me a long time to accept it, and to realize I hadn't accepted it, and when I did the pain of that lost dream finally got left.

    Another thing I had to accept was the pain of a failed marraige. I would have done anything - and I did do everything - to make it not fail. And it still failed (a priest told me at the end, "You cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear." So true. I lived in denial of reality for years thinking positve thinking and effort could make the impossible work. So I know the pain of living outside reality.

    Since I never imagined divorce for myself, I was in shock when i found myself in that position and completely unprepared. And devastated and lost. And like anyone experienceing the pain of life - including those who have much harder pains, like your pain, infertility, or others, like untimely loss of a loved one - I did feel very sorry for myself and upset at the unfairness of life. A grace for me was strong faith, so I did not question that God would "give back the years the locust has eaten" someday, but meanwhile, current life was dismal. I found myself on the precipice of despair more than once, and despair I am told is a sin (but this is a deep spiritual truth that will be too much for some, however, I will reassure that God loves us and understands when we sin) but it was as if my Guardian Angel "saw" me slipping towards despair inside my mind, and you know what would happen then? This thought that seemed to come from outside myself would come into my mind, though it did reflect one of my worst fears: "Some Moms are taking their kid to chemotherapy today." And that thought would immediately snap me right out of despair. Yes, there were worse things in life than what I was experiencing, and I had our health to be grateful for.

    I do not know that I would counsel anyone in despair that way, I would only love, as you say, and love often means "be sad when they are sad". But I would pray hard that they be saved from despair on my own. Because it is a spiritual battle they are going through, it is the devil's minions putting those thoughts in their heads: God must like like you, you must not be worthy, etc.! They ahve a grand time making mischief with their lies, and they do like to lead people to despair because then they feel cut off from God, the one who is so close to hearts that are breaking. But I just remember that those pesky things are afraid of plastic beads and water - rosaries and blessed water - and I know that prayers for hurting hearts are efficacious.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shayley View Post
    My youngest is 20 years old now and I am so incredibly thankful to having my 3 children at a young age before my immunity problems started causing the miscarriages but that is 20 years of all sorts of thoughts and feelings on the matter...pain, hurt, betrayal.....feeling not loved, not good enough, not worthy.....

    I came to terms with the fact that I would never have another child some years back and now I no longer try.

    There is really nothing that one can say or do for when one goes through a situation like this but give them and more
    How blessed you are to have three children. I would like three! But I have peace now; things do not always turn out as we plan, and I feel confident that God has a plan for me and it is good. My dear friend with all her miscarriages rather a spiritual giant after all she has been through, and a great, great encouragement to others who are in the situation she is in.

    If anyone reading this is struggling with infertility, you should know that the John Paul II Institute is by far more successful with infertility than anyone else. You don't have to be Catholic to get help from them and no one will proselytize you.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 09-10-2012 at 04:02 AM.

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    Catholicism prevents people women suffering infertility from having children by convincing them that utilizing a surrogate or egg donor (like me) is a sin.

    Catholicism also demands that men suffering from impotence live their life as bachelors.

    God has a really shitty personality. Surely Socionics can explain why people date such assholes.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I didn't didn't write that Christians literally say "God wanted your baby to die," but that's the implication of saying "it was God's plan" after someone loses a child, is it not?
    True, that's basically how it comes across. And its not the truth. The truth is a deeper quesiton that has been asked through tthe ages, and answered quite well by people with greater and holier minds than mine, though never perfectly, and its not the kind of thing anyone is of mind to understand in the throes of loss. But people who feel bad that others are hurting often feel they must say something, so they say something stupid, out of their well-intended ignorance. Everybody should know, you only have to say, "I am sorry for your loss" and if you know them well and they seem to need it, sit with them and let them talk when they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    You really think you know more Christians than me? I did grow up primarily in the South and I do happen to live in Mexico. I know quite a few of the little buggers. Some are them are lovely. I probably would have starved a few times without church people.
    Probably I know them better. But probably you know some things I don't! Yes, we hear about the broken people who are Christians doing broken things in their brokenness, but there are a lot of salt-of-the-earth people in every church living to serve others in order to please God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    As for your last comments I didn't think Christians were mentally deranged until I read them. What are you talking about?
    I was referring to those who generalize about all Christians because of some who are not living the Christian life... I get sick of that narrowness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Catholicism prevents people women suffering infertility from having children by convincing them that utilizing a surrogate or egg donor (like me) is a sin..
    What Catholics believe is what all churches believed till 40 years ago. At any rate, yes, the Church, while it does reform its practice and errors, will never change its teaching on faith and morality. It does sound out-of-this-world in today's culture to have any question about egg donors or many other things that are Catholic moral teaching. Its hard to believe that any reasonable person would subscribe to it, and yet, reasonable people do, and some of the most brilliant, admirable people - and simple people as well, have willingly submitted to martyrdom rather than deny these beliefs. It is a mystery worth looking into someday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Catholicism also demands that men suffering from impotence live their life as bachelors..
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    God has a really shitty personality. Surely Socionics can explain why people date such assholes.
    So this is the Wowserism that @Absurd explained above??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post

    A serious pet peeve I have is the grossly-intolerant view gaining popularity in today's culture that there is some entitlement to live in an atheist-only society, and that if one has a lively working faith, all references to it must be kept strictly out of anyone's earshot. And I will never kowtow to such bigotry. .
    No, what rubs people the wrong way is the way in which some religious people reference their belief. They throw it around carelessly, suggest that they know the salvation for other people's sorrows without knowing context or reason for those sorrows, insist on their interpretation of scripture as being true without knowing or caring what other people believe in, constantly suggest that they have the path to righteousness, and worst of all, offer comfort in a way that is neither comforting nor well-meaning. I identify as Christian, grew up Lutheran (thankfully a progressive brand of it), but believe that compassion based on the other's need for comfort goes a much longer way than references to my personal religious beliefs.

    And if you really want to help people who struggle with infertility, tone down the rhetoric of how children are the greatest blessings on earth and the biggest fulfillment for a woman (or a man for that matter). And what Scapegrace said.

    When you deal with people in crisis, they probably care less about your view of why it happened. They just have to deal with it from one minute to the next and you can really help by shutting up and letting them cry or rant or vent or whatever it is they need. Talk less about your god's role in the situation and listen for the need of the person in front of you. THAT's compassion in my book.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Shazam, Kimmy throws a strike
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    And Eliza, YOU can start by working on YOUR compassion by not using your religion carelessly as a reason to hurt and insult people with statements like this:

    Absurd, that's really gross. Please. Really. Its safe to assume that most people, of whom you do not know otherwise, have the more-typical heterosexual orientation, and that for the vast majority of us, imagining ourselves in this position is extremely disgusting. So don't offend, please!
    Teenagers kill themselves because of bigotry like this from oh-so-compassionate and caring Christians. Step out of your bubble a bit (just like Jesus did).
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Strike two!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Just to clarify, Eliza, this is not a personal attack (except for your statement regarding same-sex sex, which really bothered me), I am using "you" in more general terms.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    True, that's basically how it comes across. And its not the truth. The truth is a deeper quesiton that has been asked through tthe ages, and answered quite well by people with greater and holier minds than mine, though never perfectly, and its not the kind of thing anyone is of mind to understand in the throes of loss. But people who feel bad that others are hurting often feel they must say something, so they say something stupid, out of their well-intended ignorance. Everybody should know, you only have to say, "I am sorry for your loss" and if you know them well and they seem to need it, sit with them and let them talk when they want.
    Yeah. Have you ever heard that cute little saying "actions speak louder than words"? It's true.




    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason
    I was referring to those who generalize about all Christians because of some who are not living the Christian life... I get sick of that narrowness.
    I didn't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason
    What Catholics believe is what all churches believed till 40 years ago. At any rate, yes, the Church, while it does reform its practice and errors, will never change its teaching on faith and morality. It does sound out-of-this-world in today's culture to have any question about egg donors or many other things that are Catholic moral teaching. Its hard to believe that any reasonable person would subscribe to it, and yet, reasonable people do, and some of the most brilliant, admirable people - and simple people as well, have willingly submitted to martyrdom rather than deny these beliefs. It is a mystery worth looking into someday...
    Yes. Morality. I have none because I sell my body like a whore to help decent, loving people, become parents. Two of them were even homosexuals. For shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason
    No.
    Yes. Interesting that you suggest that I "look into" faith when you don't appear know the basic tenets of your own.

    http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7581
    http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instr...ence-marriage/
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/IMPOSTER.HTM

    I would be willing to bet that you haven't even sat down and read your bible from cover to cover. Not only have I done this, but I studied it rigorously with both a rabbi and a priest.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Wow, @Absurd, that was interesting. Also there were many words for me to Google, interesting use of language! I want to comment on some of what you said. And I started and got sidetracked, and now its late, must be up early so I will be back to comment.
    @Scapegrace, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Yeah. Have you ever heard that cute little saying "actions speak louder than words"? It's true.
    Yes, its true. And actions belie intent often. Its intent that I am interested in generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I didn't do that.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Yes. Morality. I have none because I sell my body like a whore to help decent, loving people, become parents.
    I think it is safe to assume that many who do this do so out of a spirit of giving. It is charitable to assume that those who do this are not violating their conscience in doing so, but instead acting on the good they see of it, because of course, it is not a black and white issue...

    Yes, Intent means a lot to God, and only He knows your intent; its not for the rest of us to judge that. Yet Holy Mother Church in Her wisdom, guided by the Holy Spirit, has our good in mind when she rules on the morality of these things. (I believe this; I do not expect you to. But I do appreciate that She explains herself quite plainly!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Yes. Interesting that you suggest that I "look into" faith when you don't appear know the basic tenets of your own.

    http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7581
    http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instr...ence-marriage/
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/IMPOSTER.HTM
    Not sure of the first source but I know the 2nd two are reliable. I will get back to this later, as it involves a bit of reading. Maybe open in another thread, philosophy or something? This has little to do with the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I would be willing to bet that you haven't even sat down and read your bible from cover to cover. Not only have I done this, but I studied it rigorously with both a rabbi and a priest.
    That would be a reasonable assumption but in my case not so. I have read it many times through, highlighted and studied various editions over years as well as applied it to my life. I know it from both an Evangelical and a Catholic viewpoint. I have followed its teachings AND my own misunderstanding or its teachings. I respect that you ahve taken its reading seriously, too!
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 09-10-2012 at 05:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Wow, @Absurd, that was interesting. Also there were many words for me to Google, interesting use of language! I want to comment on some of what you said. And I started and got sidetracked, and now its late, must be up early so I will be back to comment.
    That was produced by a website that automatically writes complaint letters, durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. http://www.pakin.org/complaint/

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    And Eliza, YOU can start by working on YOUR compassion by not using your religion carelessly as a reason to hurt and insult people with statements like this: "Absurd, that's really gross. Please. Really. Its safe to assume that most people, of whom you do not know otherwise, have the more-typical heterosexual orientation, and that for the vast majority of us, imagining ourselves in this position is extremely disgusting. So don't offend, please!"

    Teenagers kill themselves because of bigotry like this from oh-so-compassionate and caring Christians. Step out of your bubble a bit (just like Jesus did).
    SERIOUSLY! REALLY??? Thats crazy, Kim. Sexual preferences and how one involves one's own self in sex is HIGHLY PERSONAL. I am SURE there are some things in the sexual realm that you recoil at the thought of doing??? Seriously, each to his own! And it is just plain rude to make assumptions that a person would be into one's own sexual preferences! Its OKAY to be grossed-out imagining yourself doing something you would never do that is a turn-off for you personally! Really! Turn-offs are kind of a personal thing. Do we need Thought Police telling us its NOT OKAY to feel grossed-out imagining ourselves doing something??? Now that's just sick! "Stop! You are not allowed to feel that"!!!

    Seriously, some activists will never rest until everyone if forced to say that anything anyone ever does sexually is ALL OKAY! And you have to go to jail if you don't teach it to your kids from kindergarten on, too!

    In my honest opinion, you are the one showing intolerance.

    And really, show me ONE teen who killed himself over words of a compassionate Christian! Yes, I know there are KKK types and bigots who call themselves Christians but I am talking about one who does not live opposite of Christ.

    I really get sick of people generalizing Christians because of some oddball bigots. That is what I was talking about to Scapegrace ( though I do not think she was doing that). But it seems to me you are, with this statement. Its just plain wrong.

    Please take note. I did NOT say that all people who engage in that are disgusting OR that they are doing a disgusting thing. I simply said that imagining me doing that is disgusting to me!

    Really, I think I have a right to my own personal preferences!

    Maybe you just read my post too fast. That's the only explanation I can think of. You were just sort of trigger-happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    That was produced by a website that automatically writes complaint letters, durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. http://www.pakin.org/complaint/
    That looks like a very useful website. Thanks for the link!

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  31. #31
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    SERIOUSLY! REALLY??? Thats crazy, Kim. Sexual preferences and how one involves one's own self in sex is HIGHLY PERSONAL. I am SURE there are some things in the sexual realm that you recoil at the thought of doing??? Seriously, each to his own! And it is just plain rude to make assumptions that a person would be into one's own sexual preferences! Its OKAY to be grossed-out imagining yourself doing something you would never do that is a turn-off for you personally! Really! Turn-offs are kind of a personal thing. Do we need Thought Police telling us its NOT OKAY to feel grossed-out imagining ourselves doing something??? Now that's just sick! "Stop! You are not allowed to feel that"!!!
    So you blurt out everything you feel even if it's offensive and hurtful? And call yourself a compassionate Christian at the same time?

    Seriously, some activists will never rest until everyone if forced to say that anything anyone ever does sexually is ALL OKAY! And you have to go to jail if you don't teach it to your kids from kindergarten on, too!
    This has nothing to do with activism, but with bigotry. Do YOU want to be attacked for being a Christian everywhere you turn? If not, why is it ok for YOU to blurt out hurtful things like that? Do you really lack the insight and compassion to understand what a comment like that could do to a gay teenager who reads this board? You are an adult who claims to believe in respecting and loving people (since you are a Christian), but at the same time you feel entitled to be hurtful? For the sake of what? Is what you gained from expressing your opinion really worth the hurt it might have caused? Do you even care about potentially hurting people?


    And really, show me ONE teen who killed himself over words of a compassionate Christian! Yes, I know there are KKK types and bigots who call themselves Christians but I am talking about one who does not live opposite of Christ.
    Read this : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-s..._b_745912.html


    I really get sick of people generalizing Christians because of some oddball bigots. That is what I was talking about to Scapegrace ( though I do not think she was doing that). But it seems to me you are, with this statement. Its just plain wrong.
    My argument with you is based on an unnecessary statement you made that might be hurtful. Instead of contemplating if and why you might have hurt somebody, you get defensive. Don't you care at all that you hurt someone's feelings for the sake of wanting to say what is on your mind? Do you care so little about other people's feelings?

    Please take note. I did NOT say that all people who engage in that are disgusting OR that they are doing a disgusting thing. I simply said that imagining me doing that is disgusting to me!
    No, that is not what you said. You spoke for yourself AND the "vast majority" of heterosexuals.

    Really, I think I have a right to my own personal preferences!
    And a right to insult other people for the sake of stating them? I am grossed out by a lot of things, but I have the decency to not blurt out my opinion when it's CLEAR to me that it's offensive to people. Not only that, this is what you said:

    "Absurd, that's really gross. Please. Really. Its safe to assume that most people, of whom you do not know otherwise, have the more-typical heterosexual orientation, and that for the vast majority of us, imagining ourselves in this position is extremely disgusting. So don't offend, please!"
    No, that is not safe to assume. I don't find same-sex sexual activities extremely disgusting. I find it offensive that you speak for "the vast majority" of heterosexuals. Do you want to be told left and right that what you do is unnatural and disgusting?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    Wait.... so I have to deal with the fact the Eliza homophobic, but she doesn't think she should have to tolerate atheists? SERIOUSLY? REALLY???!!!

    SERIOUSLY! REALLY??? Thats crazy, people. Religious preferences and how one involves one's own self in religion is HIGHLY PERSONAL. I am SURE there are some things in the spiritual realm that you recoil at the thought of??? Seriously, each to his own! And it is just plain rude to make assumptions!
    And so on.
    Last edited by Scapegrace; 09-10-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @Kim, it seems you have an axe to grind, causing you to purposely twist my words. I did NOT say that same-sex activities are extremely disgusting. Yes, had I made that statement, that would be cause for complaint, and insensitive to others that think its nice. Seriously, I am not there when persons engage in that activity that I said I would be disgusted to imagine myself in, so I will not assume that what goes on between two people has no love in it. Love does elevate things, and then there is sex between some heterosexual married persons that, between those persons, completely lacks any love at all ever, and I think THAT is disgusting to imagine myself in. (Is that okay for me to find that disgusting, Kim?)

    So I did NOT say what you are accusing me of saying, and what I said, I have made quite explicitly clear now, so of course it seems you are purposedly twisting it. To repeat, imaginimg myself in this sexual practice is extremely disgusting to me. Its a private choice, okay? What is disgusting to one to imagine oneself doing is not disgusting to another. Each to his own. Tolerance, okay? Or do you think you should be arbitrator of peoples feelings about their own sexuality??? Now that is crazy.

    Really, making assumptions about anyone's sexual activities and preferences, whatever they be, is just plain rude.

    The only thing I think is in need of correction in my original statement (from another thread! You cannot let this go apparently!) is I could have removed the word "vast". Please forgive me if my use of that word influenced people such as yourself to jump to completely unfounded conclusions. I will be more careful how I word things in the future.

    And I would urge you in the future to not be so quick to harsh judgement of people.

    I was at a Narc Anonymous meeting recently as a guest, and a woman had the floor, and she spoke with a lot of admirable honesty about herself and things she had been through and learned, and she threw in the unexpected, "I have stooped so low recently that I have actually ..."[I can't repeat this, not my style, but, she named a common act of a woman on a man]!! And thats so low and so disgusting for me because I am a Lesbian! I don't do that!"

    And I was not the least bit offended by her statement against a common heterosexual act. Should I have been, Kim???

    And as to telling people left and right that what they do is unnnatural and disgusting, you certainly have me confused with someone else. I said nothing of the sort. I ask again what you did not answer before whenI asked you: is there NOTHING in the sexual realm that others think is okay but you feel digusted imagining yourself doing?? And Kim, is there some sort of list of things you are not allowed to feel disgusted imagining yourself doing? I haven't seen it so let me know.

    I have a couple of people close to me in my life of that orientation and even though we are close I have never referenced what they do privately behind closed doors. I prefer to see them simply as people. And they have never asked me what I think of what they do in private, and I will never ask them what they think of what I do in private either. And I appreciate that boundary! Its very normal, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    That author is truly misguided. He must have an unnatural association with some KKK-like people who call themselves Christisnas but are obvious to everyone in the world but him they are not. Or he is a religious bigot? He appears to be. I have never met a single Chriatian who "condemns gays". Not one! And I have known a lot of Christians. I do not know in what kind of perverted bubble this man lives if he is truly sincere in his conclusions. But I truly suspect he is insincere. That, or just truly ignorant. That would be the higher road, morally.

    I think his "complete suicide" instead of "commit suicide" terminology is truly misguided. Its not going to make Trevor's loved ones feel any better abotu what he did, assuming the poor young man had loved ones. Maybe he didn't!

    Charles also said in that article: "I think that the fact that so many young people are so tormented -- so ostracized by their family, peers, school, and society in general -- that rather than engage and participate in life, they choose to end their life, says a lot about the Christian values that everywhere inform our culture." No. That does NOT say a lot aobut Christian values. It says a lot about bullying, and unloving people - it says a lot about anti-Christian values.

    Charles appears to have good intentions, to defend the ostracized, but he is very confused and illogical. He is not only misguided, but he is misguiding others. How irresponsible of Huffington Post. But you bought it, Kim. Don't you see the illogic in it? Have you never had anyone bear false witness about you?? Because I think that is really low, and I would not want anything to do with that. I am wary of people who do, and who are quick to misjudge others and falsely accuse them. Its a real problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Wait.... so I have to deal with the fact the Eliza homophobic, but she doesn't think she should have to tolerate atheists? SERIOUSLY? REALLY???!!!...
    "Homophobic"? LOL. That word is so often used stupidly, just like you have here, that it has lost its meaning. Too bad, I am sure it applies in some context, but IRL its become the flag of anti-religious bigots.

    I am with St. Therese of Calcutta who refused to call homosexuals homosexuals. She insisted on calling them "Beloved of God" and nothing else. Thats where I stand on that. Does that make me (and her) "homophobic"? Hardly. I really don't want to be introduced by my sexuality, I think it would be beneath my dignity because I am a whole person, and so I will treat others with the dignity I want to be treated with. And in my opinion, in reparation for the indignity of always being referred to by their sexuality, "homosexuals" need to to referred to by their most true and most lofty dignity, "Beloved of God".

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    SERIOUSLY! REALLY??? Thats crazy, Kim. Sexual preferences and how one involves one's own self in sex is HIGHLY PERSONAL. I am SURE there are some things in the sexual realm that you recoil at the thought of doing??? Seriously, each to his own! And it is just plain rude to make assumptions that a person would be into one's own sexual preferences! Its OKAY to be grossed-out imagining yourself doing something you would never do that is a turn-off for you personally! Really! Turn-offs are kind of a personal thing. Do we need Thought Police telling us its NOT OKAY to feel grossed-out imagining ourselves doing something??? Now that's just sick! "Stop! You are not allowed to feel that"!!!

    Seriously, some activists will never rest until everyone if forced to say that anything anyone ever does sexually is ALL OKAY! And you have to go to jail if you don't teach it to your kids from kindergarten on, too!

    In my honest opinion, you are the one showing intolerance.

    And really, show me ONE teen who killed himself over words of a compassionate Christian! Yes, I know there are KKK types and bigots who call themselves Christians but I am talking about one who does not live opposite of Christ.

    I really get sick of people generalizing Christians because of some oddball bigots. That is what I was talking about to Scapegrace ( though I do not think she was doing that). But it seems to me you are, with this statement. Its just plain wrong.

    Please take note. I did NOT say that all people who engage in that are disgusting OR that they are doing a disgusting thing. I simply said that imagining me doing that is disgusting to me!

    Really, I think I have a right to my own personal preferences!

    Maybe you just read my post too fast. That's the only explanation I can think of. You were just sort of trigger-happy.
    @Ashton

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    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Kim, it seems you have an axe to grind, causing you to purposely twist my words. I did NOT say that same-sex activities are extremely disgusting. Yes, had I made that statement, that would be cause for complaint, and insensitive to others that think its nice. Seriously, I am not there when persons engage in that activity that I said I would be disgusted to imagine myself in, so I will not assume that what goes on between two people has no love in it. Love does elevate things, and then there is sex between some heterosexual married persons that, between those persons, completely lacks any love at all ever, and I think THAT is disgusting to imagine myself in. (Is that okay for me to find that disgusting, Kim?)

    So I did NOT say what you are accusing me of saying, and what I said, I have made quite explicitly clear now, so of course it seems you are purposedly twisting it. To repeat, imaginimg myself in this sexual practice is extremely disgusting to me. Its a private choice, okay? What is disgusting to one to imagine oneself doing is not disgusting to another. Each to his own. Tolerance, okay? Or do you think you should be arbitrator of peoples feelings about their own sexuality??? Now that is crazy.

    Really, making assumptions about anyone's sexual activities and preferences, whatever they be, is just plain rude.

    The only thing I think is in need of correction in my original statement (from another thread! You cannot let this go apparently!) is I could have removed the word "vast". Please forgive me if my use of that word influenced people such as yourself to jump to completely unfounded conclusions. I will be more careful how I word things in the future.

    And I would urge you in the future to not be so quick to harsh judgement of people.

    I was at a Narc Anonymous meeting recently as a guest, and a woman had the floor, and she spoke with a lot of admirable honesty about herself and things she had been through and learned, and she threw in the unexpected, "I have stooped so low recently that I have actually ..."[I can't repeat this, not my style, but, she named a common act of a woman on a man]!! And thats so low and so disgusting for me because I am a Lesbian! I don't do that!"

    And I was not the least bit offended by her statement against a common heterosexual act. Should I have been, Kim???

    And as to telling people left and right that what they do is unnnatural and disgusting, you certainly have me confused with someone else. I said nothing of the sort. I ask again what you did not answer before whenI asked you: is there NOTHING in the sexual realm that others think is okay but you feel digusted imagining yourself doing?? And Kim, is there some sort of list of things you are not allowed to feel disgusted imagining yourself doing? I haven't seen it so let me know.

    I have a couple of people close to me in my life of that orientation and even though we are close I have never referenced what they do privately behind closed doors. I prefer to see them simply as people. And they have never asked me what I think of what they do in private, and I will never ask them what they think of what I do in private either. And I appreciate that boundary! Its very normal, in my opinion.

    That author is truly misguided. He must have an unnatural association with some KKK-like people who call themselves Christisnas but are obvious to everyone in the world but him they are not. Or he is a religious bigot? He appears to be. I have never met a single Chriatian who "condemns gays". Not one! And I have known a lot of Christians. I do not know in what kind of perverted bubble this man lives if he is truly sincere in his conclusions. But I truly suspect he is insincere. That, or just truly ignorant. That would be the higher road, morally.

    I think his "complete suicide" instead of "commit suicide" terminology is truly misguided. Its not going to make Trevor's loved ones feel any better abotu what he did, assuming the poor young man had loved ones. Maybe he didn't!

    Charles also said in that article: "I think that the fact that so many young people are so tormented -- so ostracized by their family, peers, school, and society in general -- that rather than engage and participate in life, they choose to end their life, says a lot about the Christian values that everywhere inform our culture." No. That does NOT say a lot aobut Christian values. It says a lot about bullying, and unloving people - it says a lot about anti-Christian values.

    Charles appears to have good intentions, to defend the ostracized, but he is very confused and illogical. He is not only misguided, but he is misguiding others. How irresponsible of Huffington Post. But you bought it, Kim. Don't you see the illogic in it? Have you never had anyone bear false witness about you?? Because I think that is really low, and I would not want anything to do with that. I am wary of people who do, and who are quick to misjudge others and falsely accuse them. Its a real problem.



    "Homophobic"? LOL. That word is so often used stupidly, just like you have here, that it has lost its meaning. Too bad, I am sure it applies in some context, but IRL its become the flag of anti-religious bigots.

    I am with St. Therese of Calcutta who refused to call homosexuals homosexuals. She insisted on calling them "Beloved of God" and nothing else. Thats where I stand on that. Does that make me (and her) "homophobic"? Hardly. I really don't want to be introduced by my sexuality, I think it would be beneath my dignity because I am a whole person, and so I will treat others with the dignity I want to be treated with. And in my opinion, in reparation for the indignity of always being referred to by their sexuality, "homosexuals" need to to referred to by their most true and most lofty dignity, "Beloved of God".
    Really? It didn't seem so "beloved" of you, the way you deal with hearing about their "activities" or whatever. You know that "homophobia" literally means "fear of homosexuals?" And you are requesting to not have them mentioned, like they bother or disturb you, like you are AFRAID of it. You're the same kind of person who puts money in the church collection plate to pad the pastor's vacation pay, but changes the channel when poor starving Africans come on a guilt-trip commercial. Go fuck yourself.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  36. #36
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Oh, and way to deflect when evidence of the bigotry of your faith was thrown in your face. Take it from, the son of a priest, who has relatives from nearly every different denomination of Christendom, who attended various "Christian" youth camps: all but the most liberally interpreted sects of Christianity promote non-acceptance of homosexuality, which translates directly to bullying when employed in the social atmosphere of grade school age kids. I have witnessed this in multiple sects of Christianity, in a plethora of environments. If you can't see this, you are simply naive; if you haven't seen it, you are sheltered. "Fag" was probably the most oft-abused derogatory slur among younger kids of my generation, and I heard it as much from kids who stood straight and sang loud and read scriptures in church as I did from the gruff bullies with alcoholic parents. At least the gruff bullies could be spotted for what they were by authorities; Christianity is a veneer for business-as-usual human shittiness more often than it is a motivation for virtue. In fact, the most virtuous Christians I know are nearly all Episcopalians, and view church more as a communal social gathering than the cult-like faith most subscribe to. In fact, the most virtuous "Christian" man I know professes to not believe in the traditional Christian conception of God, and places more faith in humanity and the goodness of people than the necessity of good deeds to keep him out of hell. He would be a good, moral, righteous person whether he volunteered to read scriptures or not.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #37
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    First of all do you really want a drunk negligent idiot as a follower? they would probably cause more problems than solutions for your "cause".
    I actually won't mind getting stupid voters. It 's a lot hardrer to win the ones over which initiate clever debates about politics. I still would find the latter a lot more attractive.

    One of the benefits of being smart is influencing your environment, involving the people.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I actually won't mind getting stupid voters. It 's a lot hardrer to win the ones over which initiate clever debates about politics. I still would find the latter a lot more attractive.

    One of the benefits of being smart is influencing your environment, involving the people.
    Of course I guess it is a bit more complex, but this sort of mentality only holds up in an artificial system where every vote is equally as worthy. I was mainly thinking in a more mobile sense where people are doing something on behalf of a cause, then the competency of one's followers matter -- the smartest play with stupid people is to use them like pawns, expendable and manipulate them. Although this sort of approach I find to be kind of Machiavellian and something about it seems kind of dirty to me, although maybe it really is the best way to be, idk -- worth thinking about though for sure.

  39. #39
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Really? It didn't seem so "beloved" of you, the way you deal with hearing about their "activities" or whatever. You know that "homophobia" literally means "fear of homosexuals?" And you are requesting to not have them mentioned, like they bother or disturb you, like you are AFRAID of it. You're the same kind of person who puts money in the church collection plate to pad the pastor's vacation pay, but changes the channel when poor starving Africans come on a guilt-trip commercial. Go fuck yourself.
    I am talking about a person, not their activities. What a girl who likes girls does with a girl in private is NOT something I want to know or think about. I do not see how my thought there is any different from the woman in the Narc meeting who made it plain she was disgusted with herself for committing a heterosexual act. I took no personal offense to that. Why should I?

    I do not think it dignified to refer to any person by their sexual orientation. It dehumanizing, whatever their orientation. Please, don't call me a heterosexual. Call me Eliza.

    I am sorry for whatever has made you so bitter and angry on this topic. I am sure there was a reason. Perhaps what you wrote next explains it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Oh, and way to deflect when evidence of the bigotry of your faith was thrown in your face. Take it from, the son of a priest,
    I have read only the tiniest percentage of your 23K posts in my 200post sojourn here. I do not know your story as others probably do. I assume your parent was Episcopalian priest? Sons of Catholic priests - much less commonplace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    who has relatives from nearly every different denomination of Christendom, who attended various "Christian" youth camps: all but the most liberally interpreted sects of Christianity promote non-acceptance of homosexuality,
    Well, that is where you maybe weren't paying close attention. Christianity does not promote non-acceptance of anyone. So if this is actually what you truly learned, you must have been involved in some cult-type Christianity, or attended some church where a pastor had an axe to grind, or was a broken man psychologically.. Perhaps the pastor had homosexual tendencies himself, and chose to repress, and hate himself for it, and hate disfigured his entire life. Hate does that, you know. You should avoid it.

    Whatever the case, you have been exposed to commonplace hypocrisy: Christians who live against Christian values. And from that, you have made the illogical leap to say their acts represent Christian values or teaching.

    Wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    which translates directly to bullying when employed in the social atmosphere of grade school age kids.
    Kids with any differences at all get bullied, unless authorities, particularly the classroom teachers with administration to back them up, take due diligence. And more often than not, they don't. And that is a travesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I have witnessed this in multiple sects of Christianity, in a plethora of environments. If you can't see this, you are simply naive; if you haven't seen it, you are sheltered. "Fag" was probably the most oft-abused derogatory slur among younger kids of my generation, and I heard it as much from kids who stood straight and sang loud and read scriptures in church as I did from the gruff bullies with alcoholic parents.
    I have heard of this said from ONE Christrian over many, many years. Its a story, so here it goes:

    My friend I mentioned above with the miscarriages, in high school, her mother outed she was Lesbian. And a sex therapist, as if the former was not enough of a humilation for a young teen. (Honestly, kids, even big kids like teens who know all about sex, tend to feel better "believing" their parents have nothing to do with sex. That the stork brought them into existence works very nice for them, thank you). It was a shock. Well, I really liked her mother, and always wondered why my friend had a certain strain when she mentioned her. Until one day, after church, she told me what hapened in her adult Sunday School class. A man had gone on a rant about gays, and my friend sat there in stark humilataion before she started to cry, uncontrollably. Years of bottled up emotions - out they all came. Which made everyone stop and wait in embarassment, which is when she told her mother's secret in public for the first time in her young adult life. The man with the bigoted remarks apologized profusedly, much embarassed. I can only hope it made a strong impression on him and that was the end of that kind of talk for him.

    Yet in all my years around Christians, that was the ONLY such incident I heard of. And I never witnessed any personally. People want to be as "Christain" as they can be around other Christians in a Christian setting, and ranting about the beloved of God is just not admired. Every people group has bigots! If your banker is a bigot, do all banks teach bigotry? See, there is no logic there. But it is a lie that people like "Charles" in the Huffington Post article perpetuate, with the help of the media. People have lazy minds and repeat what they hear. They heard it a lot, it must be true, right? So they repeat lies and stupid ill-used accusing words like "homophobe" mindlessly. They have no conscience about judging and intolerance apparently. They parrot the lies and falsehoods they hear. They don't think. We have brains and should use them. Words have meaning. I hope I never become a bearer of false witness because my mind is lazy, as I have seen here in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    At least the gruff bullies could be spotted for what they were by authorities; Christianity is a veneer for business-as-usual human shittiness more often than it is a motivation for virtue.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    In fact, the most virtuous Christians I know are nearly all Episcopalians, and view church more as a communal social gathering than the cult-like faith most subscribe to.
    I am glad you know virtuous Christians. I knew them, too, when I attended a church that, while proporting otherwise, was in fact, as you say, more a communal social gathering. Now as a convert to Catholic, the parishes I attend happen to be extremely lacking in that social-communal-gathering department and I PREFER IT, immensely. (And I have met some truly virtuous people).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    In fact, the most virtuous "Christian" man I know professes to not believe in the traditional Christian conception of God, and places more faith in humanity and the goodness of people than the necessity of good deeds to keep him out of hell. He would be a good, moral, righteous person whether he volunteered to read scriptures or not.
    I see you put "Christian" in quotes. Yes, that seems appropriate if he does "not believe in the traditional Christian conception of God". Really, it is so common to make up your own religion these days, and in my expereince, scratch the surface - its shallow! But you say he is virtuous, that's great. There are many virtuous people who are not Christian. I admire virtue, Christian or not! (God does too).

  40. #40
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I think an atheist-only society would be great. I personally view religious belief to be a form of mental illness.

    In a just world, those who hold religious beliefs would be institutionalized, and failing a swift thorough recovery, summarily euthanized.
    It's been tried, to varying degrees of effectiveness. Most people who are not religious place some level of faith in some other system, such as the state, business, dietary habits or some other ideals. Humans seem to be prone to this sort of delusions, for various reasons good and bad.

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