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Thread: Working out a SLI/IEE/SEE threesome

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default Working out a SLI/IEE/SEE threesome

    NOTE: This is a really, really old post. See the date? 8-31-2012! That's 4 and a half years later, as of this edit. There is nothing to comment on, as to this old OP. Its old news. I just wanted to comment at the end here who very different everything is now. Its the only reason I am dragging this old post back out. It can dribble back to the archives now...
    __________________________________________________ _______________________


    No I don't mean the sexual kind of threesome! I am totally typical and also traditional in my sexual views. (I realize that that "typical" window these days is smaller and smaller, however, it happens to be where I stand personally).

    Yet threesome is the word that best describes it.

    Well I posted, earlier today, my dilema on PerC, where I have for some months shared my SLI Duality emerging love story. However I might be getting to be a stranger there now as I ahve been posting such things here now instead. Particularly because many there openly protest any reference I make to Socionics or Duality and its hard to talk about this without doing that.

    So maybe it would be better to share it here is my dilemma copied and pasted from there to here:

    Dearest ISTP, I love you, I love you more each time I see you and the sadness cuts deeper and deeper when it comes time to part. I miss all of our companionship, even doing dishes together the last morning, knowing that delightful togetherness we share doing that and everything we do is over, for at least two months now.

    But along with the heavier sadness leaving this time, also that familiar relief, only even more freeing than ever this time. Yes, you know, your dysfunctional ESFP daughter -- it is such a relief to be away from her! And I realize a new truth, and I am afraid to tell you, but I must. I will pray and wait this one night and tell you tomorrow.

    My truth: I cannot live with your daughter. These weeks as a threesome, these recent two and the previous three one-weeks we had since February: its like a couple who tries out living together to see if they can tie the knot. Only for us is a threesome! If anyone wants to hire an ever-vigilant chaperon, she could make a bundle, she has the right stuff for the job . Alone-time has been hard to carve out, hasn't it.

    I feel like 2nd-wife in a polygomous marriage around her and I am not talking about your ex. She competes with me, she is catty and manipulative, and I cannot keep up with that stuff, I am just not cut out for it. I cannot live with it. I want to marry you and live with you, but I cannot be 2nd wife to her in a home with you. Not possible.

    Of the three of us, she is by far the most aggressive and dominating. When she is there, wherever she is, she is the eye of the storm and all of life revolves around her. From the moment she bursts in the door. Which could be anytime! You know. You will understand but I am so afraid of the pain this will cause you.

    I know you love me and I am afraid it will feel like I am putting an ultimatum on you: "Its me or her." Who wants to do that to the one they love? I don't. I dread this. I love you and must speak my truth to you. I cannot live with your nearly 30 year old daughter who is more cloyingly dependent than my 16 year old. I cannot. This changes a lot, I know, all the plans we have so extensively and constantly made.

    I feel both great relief and trepidation. I will wait til tomorrow though. Prayer first.

    ~ENFP who loves you


    So this is the bomb I will detonate tomorrow. I feel a growing hope its going to be okay. There have been so many obstacles, this is just one more. Right?

    SEE daughter just celebrated her 5-year Narc-free anniversary all week while I was there. It was a horrible 5 years for SLI who supported her through this and HE should get a party, but like everything else she does, it was all about her, so, no thanks for him (never is). He told me in the first minutes of talking when I met him (after several years writing as strictly friends, just a bit of flirting undercurrent here and there), just after she left the house, what was foremost on his mind: he was a ruin and it was his daughters fault. His nightmare picture of her in his mind, standing before him with her empty hand out to him. Squeezing out his last dollar.

    Do you think this is a SEE problem? Or a dysfunctioanl recovering addict problem? It seems SEE and I should gt along fine. Look-alike relations are pretty good. And I honestly like her as a person. I tell SLI that he has truly chosen the "better part" in his dysfunctional codependent style of parenting her: he has been a kind and loving father. That he has been her codependent support so that she takes no responsibility in her life whatsoever has damaged her, however, she has a certain security because she has been truly loved and you can't buy that for anything.

    SLI of course is in Illusionary relations with her: "These are relations of growing laziness. There are no other intertype relations that can deactivate partners so much as Illusionary relations." Now there is no question about this! Just the mess in the house says it. [I have been spending my weeks with him doing major house cleaning/organization for hours upon hours top-to-bottom . We are in the home stretch. It looks nice. And we have learned we work GREAT together].

    I wonder what's harder? Look-alikes or Illusionary?

    At any rate, if we all live together I will get the worst end of it. He will get the next worst, and she will do just fine because she is so aggressive and dominant. Of the three, she is the most dominant personality. (Of SLI and I, I cannot say. I am strong in some ways, he in others).

    Part of what exhausts me day-to-day is the drama! We will be relaxing in the living room and she will burst in. Or, once, in his room on the bed organzing stuff, and another time, on his bed with him, fully clothed, enjoying the peace and delightful togetherness of an afternoon nap with him - but gee - bursting in! Knocking and saying excuse me is not her way. She will burst in with very happy! or very sad! drama. The very-happy is okay, and entertaining. But I would like to go home from it and to the calm I feel with my SLI, instead of having her there, never knowing when she will come in in her whirl of drama. She cries easier than me, and in a demanding pitch for sympathy. I cry, but rarely, and almost always alone while I am working things out alone. She instead works things out outloud on the spot. One minute she is having a moving "poor pitiful me" drama that dominates the mood of the entire house (moving my SLI to tell me SEE is suffering so sadly so we must take it easy on her now, and this is after she has been catty and manipulative with me, which he honestly missed) and the same day she has changed her mind on that subject and is excitedly anticipating the change she cried about earlier the same day!

    I cherish the calm and peace I feel doing simple things or anything with my SLI and I wait months for the chance for that and sacrifice to get there and then SEE bursts in and its all about her now! Peace is gone and its drama time. At one point I told her:, you barely slept last night, you have been active all morning, you should let this go and take a nap and revisit this issue after some refreshment because it is not a pressing issue this moment and your exhaustion is tainting your view of the problem. But she ignored, and proceeded with her sad, feel-bad-for-poor-me venting anyway.

    I feel exhausted begin pulled constantly into her happy/sadness.

    Is this some kind of IEE sensitivity or what? Is this SEE stuff or dysfunctional stuff or in some way both??

    Just wondering.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 01-31-2017 at 05:25 AM.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Both you and I feel this level of sensitivity; it's because energy wise Se and Si are very different and Se ignores Si so it makes situations like this doubly hard for us to be in constantly.

    You're not going to do very well in a house with an ESFp unless she's very mature and takes up some responsibility and allows you to have lots of your time away from her.

    It's not fair to him if you leave him just because he has a daughter who you don't get along with; he wants you I'm very sure.

    She's 30, ok, she needs to move out. NOW
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-31-2012 at 06:16 AM.

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    Calm down. If you love each other, things will work out.

    I don't suggest sending him this almost scary message. Take a few days to relax and then try talking to him face to face about it (text or video chat if you're apart and can't meet). He might or might not be aware of how you feel about (living with) his daughter, and I think you should find this out first. Bring it up during conversation and see how he responds. After you establish his awareness, try to discuss the possibility of just the two of you living together, without his daughter. And if this doesn't seem practically feasible at the moment, don't fret. There's a solution to every problem, and I think you two have the necessary mutual feelings and dedication to work this one out successfully.

    For the time being, just try not to worry so much about it. My 2c.
    Last edited by Park; 08-31-2012 at 07:56 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    She's his child no matter what her age so not wise to interfere, just let them work out living accommodation in their way, in their time without any possible threats or manipulation of it's me or her from your part and hopefully you will be forever welcomed by them both.

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    Have you considered chopping her up and dissolving her body in a teflon barrel? It works on Breaking Bad. Also don't send that letter/put it in those words, if that's what you were thinking.
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    I wouldn't send it either and give it a few days for yourself to calm down. If I received a letter like that, well....it's just too much. I've reacted too quickly many times and have regretted it every single time....think about what you're sending. And while we're at it, why aren't you doing this in person?

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    Hollllllllllllyyyyyyyyy crap. Step back and think... for more than one day.

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    Boundaries > socionics.
    Reason is a whore.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Yeah Eliza, I have to give it to you straight.

    She is his daughter. And while you two are in love, you did really just meet recently in the larger scope of things, while he has had his daughter for 30 years! It's not fair of you to feel jealous of their close relationship; you should expect that when he has to choose between you and his daughter, he would choose his daughter. You should EXPECT that and be ok with it. This doesn't have to do with socionics.

    Sounds like his daughter has been through a tough time... of her own doing maybe with the drug addiction, but sounds like she is battling it. She needs her father's support, that may also be why she is living with him even though she's 30. Also, often people's kids dont like them being in a relationship with someone other than their other parent. Both of these issues could be making his daughter disgruntled about your relationship and thus intentionally trying to give you a hard time. Also not much to do with socionics. But like i said, dont expect her father to take your side in this.

    This is a big reason why I dont even look at men who already have children. If they have kids, they are out of my dating pool. But if you're ok with it, you should be prepared for interactions like this and be ok with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    Hollllllllllllyyyyyyyyy crap. Step back and think... for more than one day.
    Watch out. Eliza is going to activate you.

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    I'm just going to reiterate what other people have said. bad letter is bad.

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason
    The following post is intended to offer help, not criticism. There is critiquing of the wording, but that has to do with my history of helping friends and family edit legal papers, formal writings, and writings that carry emotional impact. The following are merely suggestions, you are, of course, free to take and discard any ideas as you see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Dearest ISTP,
    I am assuming that "istp", "enfp", and "esfp" are merely place holders for names for online privacy reasons, and not actual terms used in the letter. If this assumption is wrong, then I strongly suggest editing out any references to socionics and typology. Because socionics and typology deals with stereotypes...not real people. It also makes things less personal and thus more insulting, imo.

    But along with the heavier sadness leaving this time, also that familiar relief, only even more freeing than ever this time. Yes, you know, your dysfunctional ESFP daughter -- it is such a relief to be away from her! And I realize a new truth, and I am afraid to tell you, but I must. I will pray and wait this one night and tell you tomorrow.*
    I strongly caution against referring to feeling relieved about leaving his home/presence. I know you are referring to leaving the presence of his daughter, I get that. But I don't think it's a good way of getting across your message, as it leaves a bit more implications open than you intend.

    Do not refer to his daughter as "dysfunctional" (and as mentioned above...nor as esfp).

    Beware building up anticipation of negativity, which is what the last 2 sentences do. This is not a story you are writing/telling, so its even more imperitive to consider the psychological/emotional impact your words might have. Stories make use of such tension creating drama...which is not suited to the intended message of this letter.

    It also comes off as you being a bit of a drama queen, as these are the kinds of things an emotional person might write in their diary, but if said out loud, directly to the person, and then walks away from the conver for a night...well...that's creating drama in the other person's life...causing tension for them to suffer that night and until they are actually told what's wrong. I am sure you would not do such a thing to him in person... Please don't do it in a letter format either.

    My truth: I cannot live with your daughter. These weeks as a threesome, these recent two and the previous three one-weeks we had since February: its like a couple who tries out living together to see if they can tie the knot. Only for us is a threesome! If anyone wants to hire an ever-vigilant chaperon, she could make a bundle, she has the right stuff for the job . Alone-time has been hard to carve out, hasn't it.
    I recommend cutting out the last three sentences here. They read as a put down of his daughter...who he is helping...who he loves...and who is not there to defend herself, nor he there to defend her. If you would not say this verbally, in person...then do not say it in writing. These kinds of descriptions of his daughter are likely to induce internal conflict in him, and/or raise his defenses. Neither of which you want...I hope.

    Aso, think carefully before saying you "cannot" live with his daughter. Even if she were to move out, this daughter IS going to be a regular inclusion and consideration in his life...with or without you. That will not change. Saying you "cannot live with her" is akin to saying that you don't want her in your life at all. I think saying something more like "I have reservations (or concerns) about sharing a household with her" would bring his mind to focus on immediate living arrangements...rather than overall future.

    I feel like 2nd-wife in a polygomous marriage around her and I am not talking about your ex. She competes with me, she is catty and manipulative, and I cannot keep up with that stuff, I am just not cut out for it. I cannot live with it. I want to marry you and live with you, but I cannot be 2nd wife to her in a home with you. Not possible.*
    Again...I suggest refraining from putting his daughter down.
    However, I see nothing wrong with mentioning that you are used to running your house in your way, she runs her house her way, and you are concerned that there will be conflict over who runs the house, and how to run it. This is a common difficulty when 2 households become 1, but one which some guys may not be aware of.

    Putting it in this terms also helps bring the focus onto immediate living arrangements, rather than an overall future.

    (it is also one of the things discussed in poly households before a new person is added...who is in charge of what aspects of the home. This is to help clear the air, and to prevent conflict before it happens by working together to create agreed upon guidelines.)

    Of the three of us, she is by far the most aggressive and dominating. When she is there, wherever she is, she is the eye of the storm and all of life revolves around her. From the moment she bursts in the door. Which could be anytime! You know. You will understand but I am so afraid of the pain this will cause you.*
    More put downs to edit out.

    If you are afraid of the pain saying these things will cause him...then try to find a way of getting your needs across without saying them. Focusing on how the household will be run gets much of that need across...without the pain.

    I know you love me and I am afraid it will feel like I am putting an ultimatum on you: "Its me or her." Who wants to do that to the one they love? I don't. I dread this. I love you and must speak my truth to you. I cannot live with your nearly 30 year old daughter who is more cloyingly dependent than my 16 year old. I cannot. This changes a lot, I know, all the plans we have so extensively and constantly made.
    It doesn't just feel like you're putting an ultimatum onto him...you ARE giving him one. You told him you cannot live with his daughter in your life. Yes, you probably meant "in the house"...so edit it to make that more clear.

    Also, again...edit out the put downs of his daughter.
    Remember...he helped raise her. She is an extension of him. Putting her down implies fault in his parenting of her. It may not be intended. Think about how you would feel if someone dropped off a letter to you that put your own daughter down...and then walked away so you couldn't defend her nor respond. Think of what it would feel like to you, if you were trying to help your daughter with one of her personal struggles...and someone came along and a) encouraged you to develop feelings for them, and then b) told you that they didn't want your daughter in their life.

    I feel both great relief and trepidation. I will wait til tomorrow though. Prayer first.
    ok, you've given yourself some time to consider your words, your intended meanings, and sought input on them. This is good. It gives you time to edit them...without placing a time restriction on when to give it...or even IF to give it. So there's no pressure to give it to him in this form.

    Please, please edit it. For his sake...and for your relationship's sake.

    ~ENFP who loves you
    You are not a stereotype. You are a person. Please don't use socionics/typology terms in such a personal message.
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Oh, boy. I am overwhelmed. A lot of advice here to not tell him my reality, 'I cannot live with your daughter". But it is my reality. Blood is thicker than water and if he might LIKE his role as extreme-codependent constant life-support to a grown woman who uses and abuses him and does nothing for herself. I need more thinking...

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    In this situation the change you want would deeply affect your SO's relationship with his daughter, and that relationship is their business. They're adults. You can't waltz in and re-arrange that, but you can state your concerns about your relationship with him. /2cents
    Reason is a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Oh, boy. I am overwhelmed. A lot of advice here to not tell him my reality, 'I cannot live with your daughter". But it is my reality. Blood is thicker than water and if he might LIKE his role as extreme-codependent constant life-support to a grown woman who uses and abuses him and does nothing for herself. I need more thinking...
    People weren't advising you to Not say anything about your reality...but to perhaps rephrase it during communication about it.

    Try approaching it as if you were him, with his experiences, his efforts, his values, his attitudes....not yours.
    And with those in mind, imagine what kind of communication and phrasings you (as he) might be more receptive to.

    And when you step back into your own skin...remember that part of what you love so much about this guy is also part of what sets him up for his relationship style with his daughter.
    Last edited by anndelise; 08-31-2012 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Added "(as he)" for clarity
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    You think that SLI you're talking about just won't pick up the phone - cancel incoming calls after some time? I mean that's what I would do and did.

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    @Eliza Thomason (ENFP), do you like the twilight series?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer View Post
    @Eliza Thomason (ENFP), do you like the twilight series?
    I hope so.

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    it looks like she could write an romantic angsty novel ,probably with more well-developed characters than the ones created by Stephenie Meyer.Maybe she'd need a technical advisor for the sex scenes.
    to lie that he/she wrote those parts.
    Last edited by kalinoche; 08-31-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer View Post
    Maybe she'd need a technical advisor for the sex scenes. to lie that he/she wrote those parts.
    Johari/Nohari

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    And then people wonder why they have trouble with relationships.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall View Post
    And then people wonder why they have trouble with relationships.
    Because the soup was too salty

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    This thread makes me sad. Everyone's negative re-marks make me think that if someone was going to jump off the empire state building I'd be the only one yelling "Do a flip!" Sure they wouldn't be able to hear me but I say; if you're going to go out you might as well go out doing a flip, dammit. Put more murder in the letter, and be sure to use words like 'slice' and 'incinerate' and 'brothel'. Oh, and I heard that if you cut out little pieces of your local newspaper or some old magazines and then paste them to a piece of white paper to form your message instead of just typing it out, it's a much stronger choice stylistically. Very bold. I recommend it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    This thread makes me sad. Everyone's negative re-marks make me think that if someone was going to jump off the empire state building I'd be the only one yelling "Do a flip!"
    For once I agree with you.

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    Letters like this are stupid, if you can't say it to his face/on the phone, don't say it.

    Why not just bring it up briefly? I would dump anyone who would write me a damn letter rather just talk about an issue they have with me.
    And sounds like his daughter just doesn't like you.
    Tough.

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    It's a side trip but possibly relevant:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Last week my love's grown daughter said she realized in her teen years that her Dad was "abusive" because of some off-things he had said to her when she was young, venting his frustration with a bad situation with her Mom, leaning on his daughter too much for her age when he needed a confidant. But she did not get at all what abuse is. Abuse is all about motive. This was definitely not abuse because an abuser knows he is hurting and says the things because he wants to hurt. All her father was guilty of was saying some inappropriate things that hurt and/or confused her (and none were directed at her angrily)... Like so many things, its all about motive.
    You didn't tell her this, did you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    It's a side trip but possibly relevant:

    Last week my love's grown daughter said she realized in her teen years that her Dad was "abusive" because of some off-things he had said to her when she was young, venting his frustration with a bad situation with her Mom, leaning on his daughter too much for her age when he needed a confidant. But she did not get at all what abuse is. Abuse is all about motive. This was definitely not abuse because an abuser knows he is hurting and says the things because he wants to hurt. All her father was guilty of was saying some inappropriate things that hurt and/or confused her (and none were directed at her angrily)... Like so many things, its all about motive.
    You didn't tell her this, did you?
    Good point.

    Different tangent: @Eliza Thomason Overt motive is not necessarily relevant. People can do things that hurt, sometimes horribly so, simply because they made a mistake or thought their method was best. One example. There are others.

    Families aren't always black and white situations. Thirdly who are you to decide how and how much her history affected her?
    Reason is a whore.

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    I appreciate all this feedback. Thanks for dedicated effort Anndelise and I took your advice to watch how I word things, and I even appreciated the levity of the silly ones. Though Korpsy, I have no idea what you were getting at...

    I just could not wait till I got it perfect; it is only fair to share what i htought and I did (and buy the way, that was NOT a letter I would send him, that was me sorting my thoughts to myself basically. Yes, it would be stupid and annoying to send a letter like that).

    It felt wrong to wait so I called and told him. He took it amazing well! He comforted me. He agreed with what I said. He is the one who has told me how stressed out she makes him, how he wants to escape and go live in England, or, is there some Parent's Protection Program somewhere??? Because if there is a such thing he wants to go there! She "terrifies" him he says, he has nightmares, he stands in the mirror and talks to his ancestors. Its not just me having trouble with this relationship. He acknowledged to me the truth: he is a Codependent parent ultimately doing her much more harm than good enabling her to be an irresponsible layabout. It would take serious hard therapy for him to change his ways while he lives with her, and she would put up a fight (naturally; no one wants change imposed on them). He suggest selling the house he has spent months making detailed builders plans for addition and we have spent multiple letters discussing how we would paint, landscape, furnish - but when we go SEE daughter wants NOTHING changed, she considers it HER house, HER memories she wants preserved intact since its HER inheritance (forgetting she has a brother I guess) so she wants to choose paint colors (but not contribute to rent or paying off the mortgage...). If he sells it and comes here then we do not start our marraige under constant scrutiny (where our every move is broadcast, with a negative resentful spin) plus we ill not have to spend the next seven years working as much as possible spending nothing just to pay off mortgage... He can realize his other dreams, one is to teach Latin, and I know how to get him connected with that here, and we have a giant mostly unused basement he could set up a classroom in for homeschoolers and I could teach art while he teachers Latin... We could actually take weekends away which we could not afford under the old plan which was all about work and save... He was so reassuring and agreeable to this sudden change of plans and the best thing is we could marry in a years time (provided his annulment goes through) instead of two years (we were waiting till my son graduates for me to move there, so as not to move my son from his school... this way, he can just move in here. There is plenty of room.

    I am so excited! But a few hours later I called to check on him, and he is feeling overwhelmed. He needs time to think this though. I told him if he needs to wait extra years to make sure SEE daughter is established its okay, I will wait. He says no, he wants sooner... There is much more for him to work out now. Particularly the 30K work on house all set to commence. Much of it needs to be halted... So much!

    Does SEE daughter dislike me? Only that I may interrupt her gravy train, that is truly her biggest concern, and change things in HER house, and affect her life. Which I gave her, for some months. No one likes change imposed on them. But while I was there this time, I decided I was DONE with that. I need to hear she is happy for her Dad, who is a changed man with a life now, completely different from when I met him in October when he told me, "I am a ruin". Its NOT all about her, so I have no more patience with "poor me" -not till I hear some concern/happiness for her Dad. Also, I like her, but I do NOT like her disrespectful ways with her Dad, her constant disparaging jokes about what a whatever he is, and I told her I will NOT live with that, its NOT okay with me. He is due her respect, and she is not giving it, and I do NOT like that. So she said where she stands, and I said where I stand. And I feel confident everyone will be happier if we don't live as a threesome.

    Oh, I must say, I am not a Twilight fan at all. Vampires, not so interesting to me. I guess my love with SLI does seem like a great romance story to me however I did not know it would seem so to others. It really is a great story you know. And I suppose we are like they say with Duals, lot of big things to work out at first. But its true with us, we work them out and it works.

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    I also want to add that I remembered the "abuse" SEE daughter complained of. He used to come home from work and rant to SEE daughter (age 8?) that if she did not shape up the gypsies would come take her away! Yes. That was the abuse. (She said it used to scare her, she believed it and was always afraid gypsies would come). But he did not rant in anger, he was not deeply upset. And her mother was there when he said it, she could have corrected, told her there are no gypsies, could have told SLI she was scaring their daughter if she thought so but she didn't, and if anyone told him that he would have stopped immediately because he loved his kids and did NOT want to hurt ANYONE especially his kids. Also he confided in her when her mother left the marraige for her longtime lesbian relationship, and the sort of slang-way he explained his wife's new relationship lifestyle was age-inappropriate (approximately age 10) and highly and strangely confusing to a child. But I won't repeat it here. (Anyone who acts perfectly when their treasured home life explodes must have no love.) That was the extent of "abuse".

    I have read books on abuse and I know this does not apply. There is inappropriate, and there is abuse, and there is abusive relationships, and they are all different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer View Post
    it looks like she could write an romantic angsty novel ,probably with more well-developed characters than the ones created by Stephenie Meyer.Maybe she'd need a technical advisor for the sex scenes.
    to lie that he/she wrote those parts.
    LOL. And the well-developed characters is a compliment, thanks. Though you perhaps just mean to critique Meyers. It sure feels romance-angsty. Yes my SLI assures me he is no romantic but to me it all is. Technical advisor, you would think so. But the truth is when you really love someone you need no lessons, things just unfold naturally and have a life of their own. And I would LOVE to write about that, but I wont. In our case its regular concerted effort for things not to happen...(wanitng to submit our desires to Gods ways, unnatural as that seems, believing that our ways are not His ways...).

    --------------

    Just now on the phone he brings this subject up, our constant struggle between being ourselves and being "good" when we are together, the too-many trips to confession, our regretfully asking each other, "should we make another rule for ourselves?" and he says, re: wanting to marry sooner than later, "I would like to legitimatize you". LOL.

    I so look forward to marrying him and I will never tire of or have too much intimacy with him.

    And he is happy! He likes the new plan, which was his idea - I only knew I could not live as a threesome - and he wants it!

    He sounded so relaxed and happy on the phone. His voice is so nice when he is that way.

    Before I told him, I called him from the car after dropping my son off at a friend's, actually as soon as my son left the car, and told him when I got home I would be calling him because I have something really important to tell him, and to call me in 5 minutes when I got there. He said, "Will it hurt me?" My heart just melted for him because i was afraid of hurting, but it was not the hurt he just implied, and I don't want him to feel insecure about me. "Well no because I love you - I love you more than ever! But its hard to say what I ahve to say and important. But I love you always." Well I thought five minutes of that would be okay, but I had traffic lights and it was more like 7 minutes, and the phone rang as I walked in, and he had called twice already. I didn't mean to make him anxious. But what a day. He is happy and hopeful now.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 09-01-2012 at 02:45 AM.

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    What matters is how she perceived it, not how it was meant in this case. It scared her and that's all that matters. Why do you feel so urged to make excuses for him? He messed up and it's fair for her to work through it. I also have to admit that I shudder to imagine what it means to explain the mother's new relationship in a "slang and age-inappropriate way."

    That being said, I think that if he really wants to be with YOU, he has to take HIS inventory first and figure out for himself where he stands with his daughter rather than badmouthing her and crying to you. As someone with pretty distinct co-dependent tendencies, I can somewhat relate to his dilemma. But it does not take "hard intense therapy" to change things. He could attend Al-Anon, for example, as a start, and talk to people who go through the same thing. If he really wanted to change HIS situation, he could.

    I think you do yourself a favor by holding back a little and let THEM sort it out. In the end, they have to work it out because as others, have said, she will always be in his life. She does not sound like she is truly in recovery and he does not sound like he has even started the process yet. It's for them to work out, so I wonder if you want to really insert yourself into this dysfunctionality?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    PS: None of this has anything to do with Socionics.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    PS: None of this has anything to do with Socionics.
    Neither does the OP, surface appearances aside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Both you and I feel this level of sensitivity; it's because energy wise Se and Si are very different and Se ignores Si so it makes situations like this doubly hard for us to be in constantly.

    You're not going to do very well in a house with an ESFp unless she's very mature and takes up some responsibility and allows you to have lots of your time away from her.

    It's not fair to him if you leave him just because he has a daughter who you don't get along with; he wants you I'm very sure.

    She's 30, ok, she needs to move out. NOW
    Right. And he realizes his role in her life keeps her dependently mobilized. I would not leave him - I just know I cannot live with her daughter, and I know it woudl put a strain on us. It already puts a terrible stain on him and I want the best for him so he can be his best. Its just even more a mess when I am there because she resentfully competes with me. But its okay, I have decided, I tried it out, and now I know we are not compatible for living together. So no I would not leave him, I would just wait for all the time he needs to work it out some other way instead of us being a threesome, trying to share daily living.

    But really, SEE daughter and I mostly get along fine, except when she is turning on me about something, then she gets beyond it and its about her own drama, which is fine. I appreciate her honest head-on approach to life, I like the person she is. I think the Narc trouble she got in was understandable in her circumstances, and I admire the work she has put in getting above it. I just, in a living situation, need a more peaceful style, which is just not her way. Plus there is the feeling she has that I am invading her house - its not hers, but she thinks it is, so I would always be an invader. This past visit was the worse we got along because I was there two weeks not one, and was also getting increasingly concerned about how we could ever live together, so I was more downcast-looking around her, more silent, while I pondered things, and she is not then getting attention and approval from me; I am unreadable. She does better when I pretend that its not a problem, which I can do. But I wanted to look at reality.

    At one point she played this manipulative competition game and I saw it right away and immediately left the house in the car and downthe driveway. I said "I feel a need to get some air" and was off in a flash, to a local park, and stayed till I was all calm and collected. SLI said that was bad for him, he worried, but I explained to him about how getting away helps me sort my feelings. I did that twice while i was there, fleeing from the forced confrontations, and I told him today those two visits to walk in the woods and contemplate the lake were among the best parts of my visit, particularly for the relief they brought in a storm. But what will I do when I feel pushed and its pouring rain or blizzarding out?? Where would I go, if I must flee home?

    But being all done with figuring out how to share living space with her I think will make us get along better. I will be a bear, though, whenever she speaks disrespectfully of her Dad. She does this in a joking way, having grown up with her Mom (Supervisor or Conflictor to SLI, haven't figured which for sure yet) and it surely is a conversation topic between the two of them still. Well it will NOT be allowed in our house.

    SLI and I discussed tonight that we could give her and her two girls train tickets to come see us. That would be a treat for them, a nice experience, and she won't be territorial here and I can treat her like a guest. I love being host. We can provide plenty of social situations and she does great in social settings.

    But as you can see, we worked this out. What angst, I thought this would be so hard, but thank God, its working great. Marrying sooner we hope! I told him if you need more time to get your daughter settled to feel okay about this, that's okay, I will wait, but he said no, I want less time....

    Please explain why Se and Si are different energy wise. Going from my own experience only, I am sure, from my experience, that Se energy is more overt, flamboyant, while Si is this wonderful deep calm. Really, I see it epitomized in my SLI's touch. Just the weight and the simplest touch of his hand moves me. He moved me when he first took my hands to pray last October, just as I was leaving, and that touch started this whole thing. Then after I obssessed about those hands but didn't know why. Could it be his hands are so large? I thought maybe that was it, but see in subsequent visits with him that they are not, just moderately large (my sons for example are huge), so its not the largeness but just they way they are, I cannot explain it but his touch can so move me. I delight in the quiet of his presence so is that Si? I began to get annoyed when it gets interrupted (so frequently) by dear SEE who oftentimes was just being engaging and friendly.

    What do you mean, Se ignores Si? And why?

    You said, "You're not going to do very well in a house with an ESFp unless she's very mature and takes up some responsibility and allows you to have lots of your time away from her." She is not any of those things, to ANY extent. Someday perhaps she will become this, as she endeavors to get her act together and the troubles she got in with previous narc use don't make her path very easy. But she needs time away from her Dad who does everything for her (he agrees and sounds quite relieved relief is in sight!). He has truly enabled her low motivation.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    What matters is how she perceived it, not how it was meant in this case. It scared her and that's all that matters. Why do you feel so urged to make excuses for him? He messed up and it's fair for her to work through it. I also have to admit that I shudder to imagine what it means to explain the mother's new relationship in a "slang and age-inappropriate way."
    No excuse, just clarification. The gypsy comment, yes, I see, she says it was bad, but she is old enough to see his intent in retrospect. The other, much worse. Yes, he messed up and he is perfectly willing to admit it. Yes, when she told me what he said I shuddered and said, what the heck, SLI, you said that to your little girl?? He knows. He was troubled and said the WRONG thing. He owns it and is sorry.

    It was too adult and too messed-up for a child's ears. Often times I hear of a wife in a troubled marraige turning to her young son as the "man in her life", burdening him with adult problems that should not be his life. I know that's wrong and when I was troubled in my marraige I never did that to my son. He was able to have a pretty normal relationship with his Dad, who I can say is not normal. But my son benefited from this illusion which I let thrive. SLI messed up on this and he knows it. But he was not the main cause of her problems. Her mom messed up way, way worse, and under her care some bad things happened that should not happen to any girl that set her on a troubled path. The Mom was going through her own crisises (likely for likewise good reasons) and SEE daughter got the brunt of those at a vulnerable age.

    Life is hard. I believe in the healing power of Jesus. He heals hearts. And there are so many damaged ones. He suffers for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    That being said, I think that if he really wants to be with YOU, he has to take HIS inventory first and figure out for himself where he stands with his daughter rather than badmouthing her and crying to you. As someone with pretty distinct co-dependent tendencies, I can somewhat relate to his dilemma. But it does not take "hard intense therapy" to change things. He could attend Al-Anon, for example, as a start, and talk to people who go through the same thing. If he really wanted to change HIS situation, he could.
    Yes, we have talked Al-anon and there is a Narc-Anon that would be useful. Still I think he should go to one of those soon. 12-stepping in the Anonymous groups is a serious commitment and we could put our togetherness off some years while he lives with adult SEE daughter and changes his ways with her as he does his inventory etc. Yes, I am full of codependent tendacies so we all know about this. Hmm, Al-Anon sort if IS hard intense thereapy, IMO. But I have this conviction that for now, removing himself form the midst of this situation he is handling wrong (being her servant basically, not saying no to ANY requests, and more) will benefit them both, helping them both find recovery and healing faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I think you do yourself a favor by holding back a little and let THEM sort it out. In the end, they have to work it out because as others, have said, she will always be in his life. She does not sound like she is truly in recovery and he does not sound like he has even started the process yet. It's for them to work out, so I wonder if you want to really insert yourself into this dysfunctionality?
    Oh, but I don't want to hold myself back, I love him. I will wait if he wants to, but good, he doesn't want to. Life is short.I want to love. I don't want to become perfect first. I know he has issues with codependency; I saw it in the first time I met him in his doorway with his daughter, and as we talked I thought: "He is codependent with his daughter, I don't want any of this. Not for me!" But love overrode my will, and I fell anyway, like truly against my will. Seriously that's how it felt. I fought it. But I got took. So I am taking him imperfect as he is. And he sees it, he acknowledges this error with her.

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    It makes me cringe that you use Socionics to figure this out. You are dealing with
    - an addict (not using, but obviously troubled)
    - a co-dependent father
    - childhood trauma because the father made inappropriate and insensitive remarks (apparently also demeaning remarks about her mother
    -a woman who tries to protect her home
    - a father who apparently can't establish boundaries
    - and two children???

    How long have you known this guy? This has nothing to do with Se or Si or Te or Ti or whatever bullshit it is we are discussing on here. These are real people with real problems and I understand that you are trying to figure it all out. But really, this is not the place that is going to give you answers (at least Socionics won't offer any).

    And really, if she has two children living in the house, things are a wee bit more complicated, no?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Of course you need to do what you feel is right, but when yourself have co-dependent tendencies, this can really turn into a strange game of misguided help. You are not only taking him as imperfect as he is, you are also placing yourself in the middle of a chaotic family situation. Initially I thought "they are all adults and can make their own decisions," but it seems as if there are children involved, in which case his daughter's fears seem a lot more justified.

    But again, just my impressions. Just Socionics really seems a tad too trivial to apply here.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  40. #40
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    Dear life,

    Thank you for not giving me an over-abundance of estrogen during the three statges of sexual development.

    Thx,

    Me

    ps. I'd really like to see another fire rainbow in my life span, but please do not make one over a shitty area of the far east WA/OR border again.

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