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    Default Self-knowledge

    Before the author turns to her particular interests (in topics like success and grit), she points out that we may perceive ourselves poorly. Seems relevant to socionics self-typing.

    You Are (Probably) Wrong About You

    If you want to be more successful — at anything — than you are right now, you need to know yourself and your skills. And when you fall short of your goals, you need to know why. This should be no problem; after all, who knows you better than you do?

    And yet your own ratings of your personality traits — for instance, how open-minded, conscientious, or impulsive you are — correlate with the impressions of other people (who know you well) at around .40. In other words, how you see yourself and how other people see you are only very modestly correlated.

    Who's right? Who knows you best? Well, the research suggests that they do — other people's assessment of your personality predicts your behavior, on average, better than your assessment does. The truth is, we don't know ourselves nearly as well as we think we do. When it comes to performance, our surprising self-ignorance makes understanding where we went right and where we went wrong difficult, to say the least.

    At the root of the problem is the human brain itself. There's a lot going on in there, but just because it's your brain doesn't mean you know what it's doing.

    In his fascinating book Strangers to Ourselves, psychologist Timothy Wilson summarizes decades of research on what he calls our adaptive unconscious, showing us just how much of what we do during every moment of every day — what we think, how we feel, the goals we pursue and the actions we take — is happening below our conscious awareness. Some of it we can notice if we engage in a little self-reflection, but much of it we simply cannot — it's not directly accessible to us at all.

    Why would our brains work this way? For the most part, the answer seems to be because it's wildly efficient. I've often made the analogy that if our nonconscious mind's processing power is like that of a NASA super-computer, then by comparison, our conscious mind can handle roughly the contents of a Post-it note. It's limited and slow, and when too much is asked of it, it starts dropping things. If we had to do everything we do consciously, then we'd be so busy remembering to breathe and not fall over that we couldn't get much else accomplished. By handing operations over to the nonconscious mind — including high-level, complex operations like pursuing goals — we make productivity possible.

    The downside, of course, is that when things go wrong we have an understandably difficult time figuring out why, given that we weren't completely conscious of what we were doing in the first place. It's like an old-fashioned murder mystery — there's a dead body on the floor, and it's the detective's job to figure out what happened, even though he was miles away when the murder occurred. He rounds up the suspects and weighs the evidence, and thereby discovers who's to blame.

    When you fail to reach a goal — say, for instance, you give an important presentation and it doesn't go well — you become the detective (once again, largely unconsciously). You gather up the usual suspects to see who is responsible for your failure: lack of innate ability, lack of effort, poor preparation, using the wrong strategy, bad luck, etc. Of all of these possible culprits, it's lack of innate ability we most frequently hold responsible, like the much-maligned butler in an Agatha Christie novel. In Western countries — and nowhere more so than in the U.S. — innate ability is the go-to explanation for all of our successes and our failures.

    The problem is that the evidence — the kind gathered by scientists over the last thirty years of study of motivation and achievement — suggests that innate ability is rarely to blame for either succeeding or falling short. (If you've blamed your poor performances in the past on a lack of ability, don't feel bad. We've all done it. The butler seems guilty. Just please don't do it anymore.)

    If we are going to ever improve performance, we need to place blame where it belongs. We need solid evidence about where we went wrong. Unfortunately, that's the kind of evidence that usually doesn't make it to our consciousness on its own, making self-diagnosis practically impossible. We need help getting the right answers.

    The good news is that this is basically what research psychologists (particularly those working in social, cognitive, and consumer psychology) do for a living — we figure out what questions we can ask you to get at what's really going on underneath the surface. Because if we ask you flat out why you didn't get that promotion, or why you can't get along with your coworkers, or why you can't seem to lose that last 15 pounds, you'll probably say something like "I just don't have what it takes," and we already know that's wrong.

    But what if you're not working with a psychologist, or doing a 360 review, or getting enough feedback from your boss or your coworkers? Then what do you do?

    I wrote a blog post (that became a Harvard Business Press e-book) called Nine Things Successful People Do Differently. In the time since it was first published, I've received more than a few emails from readers asking how they can know if they are doing enough of each thing. How do I know if I am really a realistic optimist? Am I being specific enough? Have I built up enough willpower? Good questions. And once again, very difficult to self-diagnose — and improvement is impossible without good answers. This is why I recently created the Nine Things Diagnostic. It's a set of questions you can answer online and get immediate feedback (for free) that tells you which of the Nine Things you need to work on, and which ones you have already mastered.

    You certainly don't need to take my diagnostic to figure out how where your weaknesses lie. The point is that you will absolutely need feedback — the kind you can trust — because trying to figure it all out on your own is close to impossible. Relying on our intuitions alone for self-knowledge is dangerous, because thanks to the nature of the adaptive unconscious, they are often no more accurate than a shot in the dark.

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    idk i've always been one to say that the one thing i'm sure of about myself is that i'm sure of nothing at all. i mean, i've self-typed entp and isfj lol
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Out of curiosity, I went to the 9 Things Diagnostic site mentioned near the end of that article. I forced myself to go through the first of the 9 'criteria' diagnostics, looked briefly over the second one and quit.

    "Success" there seems to be defined by achieving goals one has set. It 'encourages' the reader to have a concrete clear goal in mind, and each step planned out, track your progress, positive thinking, strengthen your willpower & resolve, etc. etc.

    Basically...be more Strategic rather than Tactical, and more Decisive rather than Judicious. This is the realm of Se/Ni Extroverts.
    Also, possibly more Obstinate rather than Yielding....leaning towards FeNi & SeFi.
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    At this point in my life, I'm pushing so much mental energy into "achieving goals" and "succeeding" that it just makes me tired and overwhelmed. A big part of my brain is telling me "GO. DO SOMETHING. YOU'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING. HURRY UP AND DO IT" despite me having done what should seem like a lot. I guess I can feel very self-pressured to avoid stagnancy, and I'm getting very antsy to move on with my current way of life.

    I do agree that the biggest part of achieving life goals is to know exactly what it is you want. I find that everything kinda falls into place when you have a good idea of where you want to go beforehand.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    At this point in my life, I'm pushing so much mental energy into "achieving goals" and "succeeding" that it just makes me tired and overwhelmed. A big part of my brain is telling me "GO. DO SOMETHING. YOU'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING. HURRY UP AND DO IT" despite me having done what should seem like a lot. I guess I can feel very self-pressured to avoid stagnancy, and I'm getting very antsy to move on with my current way of life.
    I tend to get caught up in that too, but I'm finally learning that usually it stems from other people's epectations and pressures on me. When left to my own demands on myself, I naturally explore too much into somewhat random ideas to psychologically stagnate. (even my mid-life crises was partly due to realizing that I could never meet society's demands on me.)


    I do agree that the biggest part of achieving life goals is to know exactly what it is you want. I find that everything kinda falls into place when you have a good idea of where you want to go beforehand.
    Part of the hypnotherapy training, as well as my studies in 'magick', strongly encourage having as clear an 'image' of the final product as possible. And I do strongly believe in that. But the practice of it....well, I've finally let a lot of the goal planning go as Murphy tends to play around in my life too much. I have been relaxing into the "next small step that would have the greatest benefit" thing. Part Kaizen, part 80/20.
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    I guess what gets me is that I feel like I catch myself trying to put a good spin on why I do the things I do and there's this irresistable urge to keep in mind that I'm not really that noble. Well, it's like I recognize there are certain good qualities about myself, like how I'm generally kind to other people or considerate that I use to offset a little too much how I'm sort of a coward in a lot of instances and how I exaggerate or lie to others or myself to spare bad feelings or consequences. So I'm pretty willing to accept that how I see myself is a bit of a construction and distraction from what other people see. There's sort of this level where I can no longer deny the exercise of my own free will and how the circumstances of my life are a direct result of my own self deception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    ^ann, hehe

    after posting i started wondering whether the*being* bit isn't implying sth very static/unbending (or sth like the dichotomies you mention), hence the not knowing yourself bit.

    i still think it's good tho. i appreciate the 'who's fault' it is bit. i've only very recently started accepting that not everything is my fault (and still have doubts about some of it). and that sometimes no matter what it ain't gonna happen/change/improve etc...
    I'm not quite sure if this is related to what you said...but...
    I've noticed that it is mostly Dynamic types who constantly repeat the mantra that we can't ever really know ourselves. I think maybe Static types, because they are more aware of the relatively consistent responses that keep appearing in their attitudes/behaviors, are more likely to feel that people can know a fairly large part of themselves.

    I noticed, too, that the article didn't get into the large part that conflicting values can play.
    I would say that in many cases it's not so much that we don't have what it takes...or don't have the willpower, etc....
    But that we have other values that are conflicting with our 'goal'. For example, losing that last 15 lbs might be an idea we value...but so is the relaxing time on the internet valued higher than going to the gym, or the short term value/benefit of eating a bowl of pasta more immediate than a 2+ month of deprivation towards a smaller waist.

    In hypnotherapy sessions and just plain old discussions, more benefit is derived from uncovering and adapting one's goal to allow for these other values, than from the diagnostic criteria the article points to. I think in most cases...it is conflicting values that need dealing with....not 'willpower'.

    Of course...these unaccounted for values could help lead to the idea that we don't really know ourselves. And in this case, I'd agree.

    As for not blaming self for everything... Of course!! There are usually so many variables that can influence one's efforts that are beyond an individual's influence/control. We each are trying to influence ourselves and a world which is being influenced by other people with their own agendas. This doesn't even get into the non-human and/or non-immediate influences which might be at play at any given moment. (by non-immediate I refer to influences stemming from a different time/place than our efforts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't know. I'm somewhat more skeptical of arguments re: perils of self-knowledge, as there's often a construed implication of "you really shouldn't bother trusting yourself at all"—it's why I stopped reading pompous snarky blogs like You Are Not So Smart, for instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I've noticed that it is mostly Dynamic types who constantly repeat the mantra that we can't ever really know ourselves. I think maybe Static types, because they are more aware of the relatively consistent responses that keep appearing in their attitudes/behaviors, are more likely to feel that people can know a fairly large part of themselves.
    i dunno, when i look back over my life i see discrete chunks that are different. at this time, i acted this way. at that time i acted that way. when i was in that situation i responded mentally/emotionally in x way but i'm sure if i was put in the same situation now i would respond z way. being static doesn't help me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't know. I'm somewhat more skeptical of arguments re: perils of self-knowledge, as there's often a construed implication of "you really shouldn't bother trusting yourself at all"—it's why I stopped reading pompous snarky blogs like You Are Not So Smart, for instance.
    one thing i keep reading when it comes to this topic is that even when impressions about oneself are wrong (which they far from always are) it is still conducive to a person's level of success in life to believe the things they do about themselves. a little overconfidence never hurts.

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    I think the blog author's (research-backed) opinion is that some people are not overconfident but instead underconfident: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...e-bright-girls.

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    I'm somehow skeptical: even if people can predict our behavior by our traits, it does not necessarily follow that our behavior is what we truly want to do. Our introspective thougth process might feel like we should direct our preference towards a given activity, yet learned behavioral traits and peer-pressure might lead us towards a different course of action. And, of course, what others see is more likely to be related to our peer-pressured, conformist side.
    Bottom line, what's my point? Even if others may be better than us at predicting our behavior, it does not follow that their knowledge of our own thougth processes is better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i dunno, when i look back over my life i see discrete chunks that are different. at this time, i acted this way. at that time i acted that way. when i was in that situation i responded mentally/emotionally in x way but i'm sure if i was put in the same situation now i would respond z way. being static doesn't help me.
    How would you be sure that you would respond z way if you were put in a similar situation now?

    Static types do learn. Their lives do change.

    By "relative consistency" in my previous post, I'm referring to the behaviors and responses that seem to keep showing up. Values that keep influencing our responses. Beliefs that keep influencing our interpretations, etc. Being aware of these things that keep appearing on a relatively consistent basis also helps us break up our lives/memories into discrete chunks. 'At this part of my life I kept responding via X. At that part of my life I responded via Y. And now I'm likely to respond via Z. What makes me think that? Because I learned Q from J experience, and I have already been in somewhat similar situations and had responded via Z.'

    Nor is it like static types are incapable of attending to dynamic information...nor dynamic types incapable of processing static information. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's more like a static type normally attends more to relatively consistent things than a dynamic type normally would. And vice-versa for the dynamic types.

    But then...I could be totally wrong, too.

    Edited to add:
    There's a type of memory referred to as auto-biographical memory...or something like that. Where we remember events, feelings, thoughts, etc from past experiences. The strength of this memory varies amongst individuals...as well as time periods in our lives.

    Some people, when presented with their actions and writings from their past don't recognize it as being something they may have said..or wouldn't have said (if it was modified). Other people recognize it as being something that they might have said, some the circumstances surrounding it, and some even can recite what they said before and after, or what someone else said/did in response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'm somehow skeptical.
    Somehow?

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Static types do learn. Their lives do change.
    They don't, just look at ILEs for instance. They remain 5 yrs old all the time.

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    Regarding the OP, I had wanted to add last night that we also often set goals for ourselves that are the wrong goals. I'm too lazy right now to see if that diagnostic thing even covered that part. I consider it very important to how likely someone is to achieve or not this goal.

    For example, if the stated goal is to give an inspiring presentation, but you ask the person why do they want to give an inspiring presentation...if they respond with 'to impress my bosses'...then the (more) real goal isn't to create/give an inspiring presentation...it's to impress the bosses. This divides their attention and efforts, which will likely show up during the creation and giving of the presentation.

    Why does that girl want to lose 15 lbs? Because she wants a smaller waist. Why does she want a smaller waist? Because she wants to attract a certain guy's attention. And so on until we reach a point where we discover that she doesn't really care about losing 15 lbs, nor having a smaller waist...but that she believes she'll never feel loved by an exboyfriend from 10 years ago....or whatever.

    Basically, often the thing we call a 'goal' is merely sidetracking us from our real desires. And that's quite likely to show up as we pursue this non-goal goal. Worse even, it can often get in the way of achieving what we actually desire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'm somehow skeptical: even if people can predict our behavior by our traits, it does not necessarily follow that our behavior is what we truly want to do. Our introspective thougth process might feel like we should direct our preference towards a given activity, yet learned behavioral traits and peer-pressure might lead us towards a different course of action. And, of course, what others see is more likely to be related to our peer-pressured, conformist side.
    Bottom line, what's my point? Even if others may be better than us at predicting our behavior, it does not follow that their knowledge of our own thougth processes is better.
    I also noticed that the blog author mentions behavior > introspection and I gave it some thought. Random comments so far:

    * I agree that behavior prediction and the inner landscape are two different things (though they will overlap).
    * The research referred to posits that our limited self-knowledge arises from the brain's emphasis on efficiency, and introspection is not exactly about efficiency. I'd like to know more about this research before drawing any conclusions on that front.
    * Many systems/theories of personality type do ask test takers or self-assessors to report on both their behavior and their inner lives, and descriptions of personalities mix the two, melding them together in seemingly unexamined ways.
    * Self-knowledge could be built via a combination of introspection and external feedback, step by step.

    /random thoughts

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    I personally think we know ourselves the most, but since everything arrives in terms of the subject, our own experiences, a tendency to explain ourselves comes across as blunt and imperceptive, and misinterpreted thus generalized. This is why humans utilize labels, something each can relate their own thought process to, and thus feel comfortable around those who look the same and use the same words.

    I think objectivity in psychology is half of the time an illusion. It's like the man who lived with bears, how much he thinks he knows their thought process based on behavior alone. We can't say or not whether we all have the same thoughts, simply because we only have one brain.
    Last edited by 717495; 08-29-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    My view is more like what you say of Statics. I don't expect that anyone has perfect self-knowledge, but my impression has been that most people make reasonably accurate estimations of their likes/dislikes, desires/fears, skills & abilities, probable reactions to hypothetical events (if not too far outside the scope of their experience), etc.

    I'd personally feel considerable apprehension towards anyone who told me in earnest that they "can't really know themselves"—assuming this wasn't some idle philosophical point, but rather something felt existentially about themselves. Which comes off as a tacit admission of lacking coherent self-awareness, by virtue of being either unwilling or incapable of it. Ergo, if I can't trust them to be consistently accountable to themselves there's little sense in trusting them at all.
    By admitting that people have "reasonably" accurate estimations of themselves (if not too far outside the scope of their experience) you're essentially saying that we "can't really know ourselves", which is different from "we don't know ourselves at all".

    From what I've read the philosophical point is made to caution against unusual experiences which could lead to devastating psychological effects, as an attack against false morality/piety, to describe the effects of marketing (advertisers generating desires) and as a part of compassion the narrative.

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    what is "coherent self-awareness?"

    when you say there's little sense in trusting them it makes sense to me in terms of like, being able to do one thing and say another because there isn't a point where they have to converge. which is why i might want to clarify if somebody talks negatively about another person who used to be a friend, or if somebody gives an opinion to one set of people and a different opinion to another set of people - is it opportunistic? are they fickle? whats happening here? and in that sense i guess what i am looking for is some kind of consistent "them."

    i think it can go too far in the opposite direction too. "i just KNOW i would never do what THAT idiot did." (when, really? no you don't lol.) or being so sure that you're following your principles while your behavior is actually way off in a different continent.

    but, ugh, people DO change and you can't predict how you will. you just can't. you get all excited about a new career path that you hate three years later. you get married and divorce. you swear up and down you would never become like your father and then you do. etc etc etc. there's no way around it, these things happen. when you can't predict how you will change, then how can you know who you are?

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    By not knowing yourself, I wonder how each of you arrived at your own self-typing. Immaculate conception.

    In the beginning God created Socionics and Sociotypes.

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    Information overload

    /explodetimer ON

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    but, ugh, people DO change and you can't predict how you will. you just can't. you get all excited about a new career path that you hate three years later. you get married and divorce. you swear up and down you would never become like your father and then you do. etc etc etc. there's no way around it, these things happen. when you can't predict how you will change, then how can you know who you are?
    You can "predict" how you're going to be to get some job you wanted, that is, how you're going have to be in order to get it in the first place, but this is short-term. For a long-term change to happen I have to agree with you - one doesn't know what one becomes, if one becomes actually, given the environmental/market/social changes that occur every year.

    One doesn't adapt, one dies - simple biology.

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    its like brazenly saying "baby i'll never leave you" but not being stupid enough to actually believe it. i feel like my brain is somewhere in the middle.

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    Ehhh

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    haha eh, i don't wanna expand too much (and generally in discussions have no wish of convincing). i'd say i know myself very well, but there are some extreme situations every now and then. also, it's good to take in what others have to say (of course, i'll always end up deciding for myself, but it's good sometimes).
    Sounds reasonable, I think.

    also helps check on projection and such...etc (ps: and sth what lecky said on his 2nd paragraph)
    Lecky is going to get barraged now by the gamma firing squad, but I wouldn't shit in my pants, they miss now and then. So, lecky, you can ask for a cigarette.

    And when you ever want to die, like for real, intellectually and physically ask for a real hangman, that is me...

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    Last edited by Absurd; 08-29-2012 at 10:19 PM.

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    This has so much more to do with our desire to be right about other people than it does with our "inability" to know ourselves. It strikes me as incredibly egotistical, frankly. One has to be quite nuts to lack self awareness. I find this psycho babble just as nauseating as those asshole 20 somethings who just have to go backpacking so they can "find themselves.". Ick. This is a Western phenomena. We idiots have indoctrinated ourselves so deeply into polite society that we don't think we know ourselves anymore. I never hear people in Mexico whining about how they need to "find themselves."

    And of course that's what psychologists are banking on. Your supposed lack of self awareness and inability to control yourself is their paycheck.
    Last edited by Scapegrace; 08-30-2012 at 01:09 AM. Reason: Gross ipad typing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    I never hear people in Mexico whining about how they need to "find themselves.
    Well, well, well.

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    No. Do you watch a lot of FOX news or something?

    I have lived in Mexico all of my adult life though with the exception of brief periods of study in other places.

    I know only what I think. Assuming that one knows what other people think or feel is a large part of this odd identity crisis problem. I do, however, communicate with a fairly large pool of my peers in Mexico, the United States, Canada, and Great Britain. Mexicans -- as I noted perviously -- are far less preoccupied with "discovering" themselves.
    Last edited by Scapegrace; 08-30-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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    Did I miss the part where I suggested that you assume that you understand the thoughts of others? That isn't what I intended to impart. I was speaking in general terms.

    I don't understand your second sentence at all. Perhaps you could rephrase it.
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    Damnit, the Like was intended for you first post @Scapegrace.
    Reason is a whore.

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    I think that there is a distinct difference between being introspective and flailing around in the darkness. My American peers seem to lack confidence in their ability to know themselves. It is as though they have lost the capacity to think objectively about their strengths and weaknesses. It might have something to do with the tendencies of Western parents who are more likely to coddle their children rather than allow them to develop independently.

    Families here tend to be larger and more diverse. There is less time for mothers and fathers to over parent. Perhaps as a consequence of not being guided through every single life choice people here become more introspective at an earlier age. Of course this is simply my best guess. There is certainly a difference though. I find that I am considerably more like my Mexican peers. Less adrift than the people I know around my age in the United States.

    In thinking through this I realize that I do not wholly disagree with the blog Confined posted despite the fact that it is "self helply" extremely poorly sourced. My problem is with the suggestion that temporary (I hope) paralysis of ones ability to self-judge is innate. Mostly I am perplexed by the idea that people possibly "know" more about others than they know about themselves. That's preposterous to me.

    I think I will slog through Timothy Wilson's book (the one mentioned in the blog) out of curiosity.
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    I've been painfully aware of my psychological blind spot (and the blind spot in others) for a long time. I wish I was better at overcoming mine.

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    I agree with the idea that we generally aren't as aware of ourselves and our motivations as we think we are (myself definitely included). That's why I think it is important to have people in your life who can call you out and give you feedback and to seek feedback on your own as well (if you want to gain more self awareness). You do have to be careful about who you go seeking out feedback from though. Not everyone is a good source. Once you have the feedback it's a whole other process because now you have to figure out what to do with it (try to change or decide not to change) and then figure out how to change if you want to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I've been painfully aware of my psychological blind spot (and the blind spot in others) for a long time. I wish I was better at overcoming mine.
    Gulenko has handy tips for those bedeviled by their vulnerable functions. For instance, if you wish to boost your Se, lift weights. For Ne, eat more eggs. Nothing cannot be solved with socionics!

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    Others are wrong without facts and evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Gulenko has handy tips for those bedeviled by their vulnerable functions. For instance, if you wish to boost your Se, lift weights. For Ne, eat more eggs. Nothing cannot be solved with socionics!
    I wish you weren't being jocose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    This has so much more to do with our desire to be right about other people than it does with our "inability" to know ourselves. It strikes me as incredibly egotistical, frankly. One has to be quite nuts to lack self awareness. I find this psycho babble just as nauseating as those asshole 20 somethings who just have to go backpacking so they can "find themselves.". Ick. This is a Western phenomena. We idiots have indoctrinated ourselves so deeply into polite society that we don't think we know ourselves anymore. I never hear people in Mexico whining about how they need to "find themselves."

    And of course that's what psychologists are banking on. Your supposed lack of self awareness and inability to control yourself is their paycheck.
    Doubting self-awareness was very common in ancient/pre-modern moral philosophy.

    In Classical mythology the gods, following their own motivations, would influence the passions of men. This has been interpreted by modern scholars as implying that some passions come from a mysterious heavenly source or that "we don't always understand the source of our emotions". I'm not sure but I suspect that divine possession seen in other religions may also be a sign of this kind of thought.

    In Catholicism it is (or was) considered folly to suspect that men had full knowledge of themselves since perfection in morality was only something that existed in heaven, as a result there were a few famous Christian philosophers who wrote damning exposés on the self delusional aspect of human nature (Pascal, La Rochefoucauld, Kierkegaard). I've also heard of Muslims taking a similar position.

    I don't know much about Indian thought but I think the idea of "no self" may also hint at the idea that our conception of ourselves is not the "real" conception.
    Last edited by leckysupport; 09-01-2012 at 06:35 PM.

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    No waii. Excuse me while I process this new and profound information.
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