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Thread: IEEs-ENFps and Se Role function

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    Default IEEs-ENFps and Se Role function

    What's your take on Se in yourself and others with Se in their ego? Do these descriptions of Se-role hold truthful?

    The individual tends to criticize himself for being less disciplined and organized than he should be, and typically tries to improve himself in this area, with very limited success. He is almost unable to make himself (or anyone else, for that matter) do things that they do not want to do, and is more likely to abandon a situation where people don't want to do anything rather than figure out how to mobilize or organize them properly.
    Discipline, organization, and mobilization can occur on their own, though, when there is a situation that demands it (as opposed to trying to generate it by oneself). However, he grows increasingly tired and emotionally worn out from having to put up a fight, and begins to look for a different, easier route rather than continue to confront the challenge directly.
    He resents any attempts to "push" him to do things and rejects the idea of people pressuring each other to do things. He himself avoids the use of pressure, preferring instead to entice and inspire. Only severe irritation can make him become forceful and demanding for brief periods of time until he calms down.
    Se – IEE assumes that society values daring, decisive, volitional people, and she attempts to create about herself the impression that she is such a person. In some cases she can actually manifest in herself willpower, and in some situations is capable of acting with pressure, but most frequently such pressure is not sufficient in the long-term and her persistence proves to be short-lived.
    IEE is not too interested in the world of material things. She is not able to keep up with it and prefers that another take charge of such matters. She is not confident in the necessity of one purchase over another and needs another person with which to confer. Financially she’s often negligent, her money interests her more so in terms of its immediate use than in terms of obtaining new experiences in life.
    I have a vague and abstract understanding of what Se really is. How I think it's expressed in people with Se-ego is they have a certain presence to them, assertiveness, they seem kinda heavy (like a certain groundness to them), they are somewhat terse, rough, and loud in their exchanges, and all these things are superficial and the dudes I'm basing these on might not even be Se and where probably E8.

    I might be a fellow ENFp so I ask you what are your sentiments with Se, because I don't know what I value more, Si or Se. But I'm definitely weak in both.
    "We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us."
    -Charles Bukowski

    "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost."
    -unknown

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    SEE type criticize themselves for not being as organized as they should be.

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    Oxymoron's Avatar
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    Well I'm pretty disorganized and I don't mind... it's just not that important to me I guess.
    "We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us."
    -Charles Bukowski

    "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost."
    -unknown

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    Oxymoron, I think Martisa already knows your type. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you.



    As for your question, I'm IEE and the first description used to fit me like a glove when I was a few years younger. My ability to organize has developed with time I quess.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxymoron View Post
    I have a vague and abstract understanding of what Se really is. How I think it's expressed in people with Se-ego is they have a certain presence to them, assertiveness, they seem kinda heavy (like a certain groundness to them), they are somewhat terse, rough, and loud in their exchanges, and all these things are superficial and the dudes I'm basing these on might not even be Se and where probably E8.
    Meh... I have a brother who I could fairly easily see as base. I wouldn't say he has a "heavy" or aggressive presence, though. More like he's an obnoxious little turd with overblown views of his own awesomeness, a highly competitive streak, and a tendency to shoot his mouth off in front of the wrong people. On the other hand, I have a sister who could be creative; she's a sweet, helpful young woman (gah, I can't believe I'm actually calling her that), but there is a definite underlying "edge" to her personality. I wonder if it might be a rational/irrational thing?
    Johari/Nohari

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    Arete GuavaDrunk's Avatar
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    I find it slightly entertaining that the sign above the Ox in your avatar is the sign for "Horse" in Chinese time measurements/astrology/directions etc. (The Ox would be 丑, for anyone who wonders.)
    Reason is a whore.

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    Hmm.

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    Oxymoron's Avatar
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    Oxymoron, I think Martisa already knows your type. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    I find it slightly entertaining that the sign above the Ox in your avatar is the sign for "Horse" in Chinese time measurements/astrology/directions etc. (The Ox would be 丑, for anyone who wonders.)
    hmm I did not know that about the earthly branch thing.
    Still the character for ox is 牛 (niú) and the character for horse is 马 (mǎ), which for us westerners sounds similar to 妈 (mā) that means mom lol. It's funny how I can accidentally call my mom a horse
    Last edited by Oxymoron; 08-16-2012 at 05:58 AM. Reason: character sign to character
    "We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us."
    -Charles Bukowski

    "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost."
    -unknown

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    As I've come to understand it, the sensing function in it's most basic form is the perception of the material reality, it's form, and it's changes, through the material self. I use material as in that which is tangible in reality and the body. Sensations, hence the term sensing function. The physical characteristics of things, people, situations, and the perception of these through the five senses and their subsequent interpretation.
    There are two forms of sensation: the concrete sensation (Se) and the abstract sensation (Si). I don't understand the difference between these enough to pretend to know what I'm writing about. But this example helped me gain a vague idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung's Phycological Types
    The concrete sensation of a flower, for instance, transmits not only the perception of the flower itself, but also an image of the stem, leaves, habitat, etc. It is also directly mingled with the feelings of pleasure or dislike which the sight of it provokes, or with the scent-perceptions simultaneously excited, or with thoughts concerning its botanical classification.
    Abstract sensation, on the other hand, immediately picks out the most salient sensuous attribute of the flower, as for instance its brilliant redness, and makes it the sole or at least the principal content of consciousness, entirely detached from all the other admixtures alluded to above.
    So, and I'm kinda guessing here, concrete sensation or Se is the perception of the material reality in it's whole. While abstract sensation or Si is the perception of a certain aspect of material reality.
    ???

    Since I can't fully differentiate Se from Si, my following take on Se is about as out of my ass as can be. But maybe you can shed some light.
    Assuming Se is about perceiving material reality in it's whole, a person using Se would be perceiving all the external sensory data (physical characteristics of thing, person, situation) and their sensory perception (five senses) and their interpretation (the flower is red, there are also thorns, leaves, it's in a garden, the flower is pretty, and makes me feel good, etc). Of course everyone does this, but someone adept at Se does this easier, more automatically, it is the first thing that their conscious self notices.
    Someone not adept at Se, will not notice the material reality of the flower immediately. They will initially notice some other thing about it regarding their own function of strength, and they may not even notice it at all.
    There is more to the world than flowers though, and people with strong Se sense not only the form of things, but also the changes of these, and hence the interactions of these with each other. All in a external sensory fashion of course.

    My interest in this thread however is how Se, in it's most basic form, relates to someone who has it as a role function, more specifically the ENFp.
    I could go on describing superficial behavior of I-think-they-are-ENFps I've observed, or mentioning things I've read. But in the end it's all anecdotal and I don't think it's all that conclusive since so many factors outside socionics influence how someone behaves.

    As we all know, the role function is weak and conscious. Weak since the functions in this position are used with difficulty and cause stress when used (perhaps because we feel inadequate), and conscious because we are more acutely aware of their use in others and our own inadequacy regarding them. Perhaps this has something to do with why we react negatively when exposed to the role function (as well as PoLR) when used by someone to who these are natural and easy. Nobody likes to be reminded that they suck balls at something, and people who's ego contains our role and PoLR do this to varying degrees, our conflictor reminding us constantly.

    So if I take my pseudo-understanding of Se in it's most basic form and stick it in the role function, what would I get? Perhaps a difficulty in perceiving material reality in it's whole. Someone with Se as a role function who is using Se would be able to perceive the external sensory data, their sensory perception, and their interpretation, but it would feel “forced” and not particularly enjoyable, not to mention they wouldn't be very good at it and would only achieve a very primitive form of Se interpretation of things.

    Am I on the right track here?
    "We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us."
    -Charles Bukowski

    "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost."
    -unknown

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    @Oxymoron

    Try this. Perhaps it will help.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxymoron View Post
    So, and I'm kinda guessing here, concrete sensation or Se is the perception of the material reality in it's whole. While abstract sensation or Si is the perception of a certain aspect of material reality.
    ???
    Yes; and Si is not the actual thing itself but what is perceived by the individual, hence subjective object.

    Se is definitive - the object is soft, I like the sense of this
    Si is subjective - the object is not that soft, but I still like it

    both are concerned with texture but Si is more holistic/nostalgic. It's an association, my ISTp nephew rejected the idea of a home made halloween costume because in the past he felt one that was itchy and uncomfortable, associating the object to that experience; an Se observes each object as a new experience.

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    My observation of role function behavior is that the person seems to consider themselves already quite adept at that stuff while compulsively avoiding it. Watching them around it is like watching someone let a little dog corner them and makes you think: if only they'd just swat the dog away, they'd get somewhere. However the person seems to think this is almost impossible until they've worked on their role function more or simply embraced its necessity in their lives (which they see as distracting them from their base and maybe a little degrading).

    In IXEs, this translates to them talking frequently about goals they're "going" to accomplish but never do, and it's painfully obvious to everyone around them what the pattern is here (similar to IXIs' relationships with the Si role, which makes them extraordinarily whiny about it). If they want to accomplish something physical or Se-related, they might half-assedly give it a shot and stop as soon as they seem to be making any progress.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    My observation of role function behavior is that the person seems to consider themselves already quite adept at that stuff while compulsively avoiding it. Watching them around it is like watching someone let a little dog corner them and makes you think: if only they'd just swat the dog away, they'd get somewhere. However the person seems to think this is almost impossible until they've worked on their role function more or simply embraced its necessity in their lives (which they see as distracting them from their base and maybe a little degrading).

    In IXEs, this translates to them talking frequently about goals they're "going" to accomplish but never do, and it's painfully obvious to everyone around them what the pattern is here (similar to IXIs' relationships with the Si role, which makes them extraordinarily whiny about it). If they want to accomplish something physical or Se-related, they might half-assedly give it a shot and stop as soon as they seem to be making any progress.
    What IXE's are doing when they talk about what they're going to accomplish is generally to request help from someone to help them accomplish it, or to inspire enough people to help them accomplish it.

    Take someone like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Maquet (ILE BTW)

    Who collaborated with Dumas in the writing of his novels, with Maquet outlining the characters and plot, while Dumas working on the details of the language and dialogue.

    This was obviously a very successful collaboration. Many IXE's don't really desire a huge amount of attention for themselves, but rather seek to promote their cause/works, they really have no problem being behind the scenes individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    What IXE's are doing when they talk about what they're going to accomplish is generally to request help from someone to help them accomplish it, or to inspire enough people to help them accomplish it.

    Take someone like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Maquet (ILE BTW)

    Who collaborated with Dumas in the writing of his novels, with Maquet outlining the characters and plot, while Dumas working on the details of the language and dialogue.

    This was obviously a very successful collaboration. Many IXE's don't really desire a huge amount of attention for themselves, but rather seek to promote their cause/works, they really have no problem being behind the scenes individuals.
    Makes total sense. What about when they accidentally over-inspire someone to make it happen before the IXE her/himself is ready to move on? I've known IEEs in my past who had big wishes/goals they happily advertised until some proactive T-ego latched on and started making arrangements, at which point they had to distance themselves dramatically from the person or leave them hanging. How does this change as IXEs mature?
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Se is something like focused and Ne something like dispersed.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    Makes total sense. What about when they accidentally over-inspire someone to make it happen before the IXE her/himself is ready to move on? I've known IEEs in my past who had big wishes/goals they happily advertised until some proactive T-ego latched on and started making arrangements, at which point they had to distance themselves dramatically from the person or leave them hanging. How does this change as IXEs mature?
    It depends on what it is. There are certain things that a IXE will want to do personally while there are other things a IXE might put off on some else. IEE and ILE are a bit different I find.

    IEE have as a 8th function vs as a 8th function, making IEE a passionate type while ILE are more business like. Both types are prone to talking about their interests but they go about it quite a bit differently. I find ILEs tend to be a lot more closed about this sort of matters, IEE's talk a lot more and have a reporter quality to them. ILE's try to build formal organizations and join organizations, this is because due to ILE's weak ethics, they need to build or be in organizational structures in order to ensure the necessary requirements are met. This is in contrast to IEE with strong ethics who take a persuasive approach and can be more adverse to organizational control, preferring to work independently.

    Probably the hardest thing for a ILE is to pin down exactly what they want to do, and this can cost them a great deal of time and wandering. IEE tend to be more reporter like, going from different interests to new ones, reinventing themselves constantly.

    These are also both tactical types, who do not have preset goals, while their duals are strategic types directed towards preset goals. In this sense, the social interaction often provides the necessary motivation to achieve concrete results.

    The key thing socionics tell us about types is that each type has strength and weaknesses but can be compensated for via social interaction. The mature you is the social you, and quite often also the successful you.

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    Have you never noticed the IEE tendancy to buy a zillion unique 'nice' items but they don't notice how they look really horrible together?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Have you never noticed the IEE tendancy to buy a zillion unique 'nice' items but they don't notice how they look really horrible together?
    No, I rarely buy anything.


    i dont liek it wen se typez are meen they hurt my feeeeeelings
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Have you never noticed the IEE tendancy to buy a zillion unique 'nice' items but they don't notice how they look really horrible together?
    Yeah, and the ones with really good aesthetics will be extremely long-winded about them, lol. My IEE friend could write a page about a skirt she bought at Forever XXI.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    Yeah, and the ones with really good aesthetics will be extremely long-winded about them, lol. My IEE friend could write a page about a skirt she bought at Forever XXI.
    I must be hanging out with the wrong (read: right) ENFps.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I must be hanging out with the wrong (read: right) ENFps.
    Harsh, bro. lol
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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