How do you solve problems

[Rocky]

Such as figuring out a math problem?

Humans show various behaviors that are usually classified as resulting from higher cognitive capabilities or functions. Examples of such behaviors are reasoning, planning, interpretation of behavior of and attribution of intentions to others, uses of language. An example of a reasoning pattern that can be analysed is 'reasoning by assumption'. Within such reasoning, on the fly new premisses can be added and retracted. Examples of patterns of reasoning by assumption can be found in the manner in which humans solve reasoning puzzles. Other types of reasoning make use of different types of representations, for example arithmetical versus visual representations. Subjects (e.g., 8-9 years old) not able to arithmetically multiply numbers larger than 10 but with some geometrical skills can reach an answer for such multiplication problems by visualising the problem and exploiting the geometrical representation.

http://www.cs.vu.nl/en/sec/ai/masters/cogsci.html

The second one sounds like me. I've always had that. Solving math problems through geometry and visual imagery, that is. I assume that perceiving types would do it that way, in contrast to judgers who would use the more analytical "arithmetic" method.

[Raver]

I find this very interesting. I believe I would categorize myself as a visual learner if I had to pigeon hole myself. I personally believe there are more than two ways to learn mathematics, but I'm assuming it is simplification. Overall, when it comes to solving a math puzzle, I tend to visualize the possibilities internally (Somewhat like a slot machine). When a possibility that could be accurate arises, then I implement it. The main problem is that I can't go to into detail because in high school I was forced to learn mathematics a certain way because the process had to be the same.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Just normal math? Or Geometry... or algebra... or trig... or calculous? or...

I find geometry and trig. to be easier than alg/cal. I really do process them differently. Do you just want an answer for simple math?

[MysticSonic]

I follow the first method, though I do find the "visual" maths easier than the more arithmetic ones.

[Rocky]

Just normal math? Or Geometry... or algebra... or trig... or calculous? or...

I find geometry and trig. to be easier than alg/cal. I really do process them differently. Do you just want an answer for simple math?

I want answers for solving any and all problems. Don't be shy in writing more than "the first or second method", you can elaborate.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Okay. In simple math I usually deconstruct inside my head in chunks that can be moved around like furniture. Trig/Geo is by far the easiest for me because I can see it inside my mind. Alg/Calc is difficult for me because (other than becoming bored from it) I have to solve it step-by-step or manually (which makes my mind drowsy).

[Rocky]

Calculus isn't really linear... isn't it more about problem solving?

[Creepy-pokeball]

I dont mean linear. I mean that I have to take myself step-by-step or physically manual (on paper) because I cannot see it in my mind very well.

[snegledmaca]

Well, if I’m stuck, now this is automatic, my mind stops for a second, well less then a second, goes blank like, and then it spews out a connection, answer or some such stuff. I'm not aware of the process. But if there is no answer found it returns no answer. Then I look over the whole problem one more time, visually absorbing every detail, labeling it, and doing it again. If no answer is reached I repeat the process. If after the 10-12 time I found no answer I pause for a while. I go into “hovering mode” where I mentally “hover” over the whole problem making local connections instead of global. It’s kind of like stepping out of the mental box where I drop the ties I made earlier. That almost always does the trick. If no solution is still found, and I can remain in hover mode for an indefinite amount of time, then I drop it. I deal with it at some other time or with different methods like asking for advice.

I don’t visualize mathematical concepts, I materialize them. They have colors and feelings associated with them and whole bunch of other stuff. I them group them by contour, colour, associated time, associated feelings, just about anything really.
That’s why I have problems with accepted “dogmas” quite often. They do not line up. The shapes in my mind. They don’t line up so the dogmas must be wrong. But they never believe me. They can’t see the shapes. They can’t see it’s wrong.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

Such as figuring out a math problem?

Humans show various behaviors that are usually classified as resulting from higher cognitive capabilities or functions. Examples of such behaviors are reasoning, planning, interpretation of behavior of and attribution of intentions to others, uses of language. An example of a reasoning pattern that can be analysed is 'reasoning by assumption'. Within such reasoning, on the fly new premisses can be added and retracted. Examples of patterns of reasoning by assumption can be found in the manner in which humans solve reasoning puzzles. Other types of reasoning make use of different types of representations, for example arithmetical versus visual representations. Subjects (e.g., 8-9 years old) not able to arithmetically multiply numbers larger than 10 but with some geometrical skills can reach an answer for such multiplication problems by visualising the problem and exploiting the geometrical representation.

http://www.cs.vu.nl/en/sec/ai/masters/cogsci.html

The second one sounds like me. I've always had that. Solving math problems through geometry and visual imagery, that is. I assume that perceiving types would do it that way, in contrast to judgers who would use the more analytical "arithmetic" method.

I usually use the visuals to get an intuitive feel about where the answer should lie. However, there are many, many problems in which mere 3-D brain rendering is not sufficient in order to estimate the required solution, and thus the usage of analytics is required.

[Lewis Stern]

I solve problems with General Semantics.

[Matt the Raver]

Such as figuring out a math problem?

Humans show various behaviors that are usually classified as resulting from higher cognitive capabilities or functions. Examples of such behaviors are reasoning, planning, interpretation of behavior of and attribution of intentions to others, uses of language. An example of a reasoning pattern that can be analysed is 'reasoning by assumption'. Within such reasoning, on the fly new premisses can be added and retracted. Examples of patterns of reasoning by assumption can be found in the manner in which humans solve reasoning puzzles. Other types of reasoning make use of different types of representations, for example arithmetical versus visual representations. Subjects (e.g., 8-9 years old) not able to arithmetically multiply numbers larger than 10 but with some geometrical skills can reach an answer for such multiplication problems by visualising the problem and exploiting the geometrical representation.

http://www.cs.vu.nl/en/sec/ai/masters/cogsci.html

The second one sounds like me. I've always had that. Solving math problems through geometry and visual imagery, that is. I assume that perceiving types would do it that way, in contrast to judgers who would use the more analytical "arithmetic" method.

Mathematical ability seems to involve spatial vision (this is important for tasks such as working out geometric shapes and estimating distance between objects). An ability to grasp complex mathematics seems to require the ability visualise things. Parietal cortex is directly involved in this form of processing. However, your parietal lobes are largely unconscious. So if you're really good at maths, you can just do it.
In fact as with other spatial tasks, trying to think about what you're doing just acts as a distraction.

Although it might be a little over hyped, your pre frontal lobes are important for what could be described as consciousness and are also important for decision making and social interaction.

Prefrontal lobe injury causes impairments in decision making and an increase in impulsive behaviour. Even though they seem to know the difference between what's right and wrong, they'll do what they like anyway.

http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi.../10/3/295#SEC4

This is a bit heavy, but if you can understand Jung, you should be able to make sense of this.

It seems to fit loosely with rational functions, feeling more than thinking.

[pesto]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I see PEPS written all over this. What a lovely learning style inventory.

And for the sake of repeated spam, Visual + Global. I wish I could bring the test for you all but Im not shelling out the bucks to the APA or it's researcher.

[pesto]

PEPS?

PEPS
Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Computing, Idioms, Wikipedia
Acronym Definition
PEPS Photovoltaic Electric Power Systems
PEPS Preferred Equity Participation Securities
PEPS Premier Entré Premier Sorti (French: first in first out)
PEPS Prevention Enhancement Protocols System
PEPS Pricing, Engineering and Proposal Software
PEPS Program for Early Parent Support

Hmm. Please explain.

[Rocky]

Parietal cortex is directly involved in this form of processing.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

[Rocky]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

You sound more INFP from this.

[Creepy-pokeball]

PEPS?

PEPS
Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Computing, Idioms, Wikipedia
Acronym Definition
PEPS Photovoltaic Electric Power Systems
PEPS Preferred Equity Participation Securities
PEPS Premier Entré Premier Sorti (French: first in first out)
PEPS Prevention Enhancement Protocols System
PEPS Pricing, Engineering and Proposal Software
PEPS Program for Early Parent Support

Hmm. Please explain.

Uhm... Productivity Environmental Preference Survey. weeeeeeee

[Matt the Raver]

Parietal cortex is directly involved in this form of processing.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Jung's concept of thinking is probably important as well (be it Ti or Te) as, there seems to be a overlap between feeling/thinking and temporal lobe/parietal activity:

Temporal lobes are involved in language and emotional responses and are more developed in women than men.
Parietal lobes (as mentioned) are important for spatial vision and are more developed in men than women and are largely subconscious.

Supposedly, there is around a 3:1 preference of feeling over thinking in women, whereas in men this ratio is around 1:1.

To me at least this seems to be an interesting co-incidence......

[pesto]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

You sound more INFP from this.

Because of the Ni? I'm quite sure I'm not, but perhaps I use another function to summerize my results. I'll have to get back on that.

[Rocky]

Parietal cortex is directly involved in this form of processing.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Jung's concept of thinking is probably important as well (be it Ti or Te) as, there seems to be a overlap between feeling/thinking and temporal lobe/parietal activity:

Temporal lobes are involved in language and emotional responses and are more developed in women than men.
Parietal lobes (as mentioned) are important for spatial vision and are more developed in men than women and are largely subconscious.

Supposedly, there is around a 3:1 preference of feeling over thinking in women, whereas in men this ratio is around 1:1.

To me at least this seems to be an interesting co-incidence......

I threw out an idea along these lines awhile ago; http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=4...er=asc&start=0

[Rocky]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

You sound more INFP from this.

Because of the Ni? I'm quite sure I'm not, but perhaps I use another function to summerize my results. I'll have to get back on that.

Because of the way you described Ni sounded more like an MBTI definition... it sounded like a judging function...

[pesto]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

You sound more INFP from this.

Because of the Ni? I'm quite sure I'm not, but perhaps I use another function to summerize my results. I'll have to get back on that.

Because of the way you described Ni sounded more like an MBTI definition... it sounded like a judging function...

No, that's not how I use it. The translation comes after the solution, it just has to be descried in a way that is clear to the teachers.

[Joy]

with math problems, I only learn from looking at examples. in a math class, for example, you can go through the problems on the board all day and break things down and explain them perfectly... when it comes time to do the homework, I'm gonna be like "wtf" and just look at a couple examples and then know how to do it. I might as well not even show up for class.

I was the same way in science and social studies. Just give me the text and leave me alone. I'll outline the parts I think are important. PLEASE don't make me listen to you talk and explain things and give notes.

[Rocky]

When I've solved engineering/math problems at the university I probably do start with visualizing it, at least I try to distance myself from how the task is described, since my problem soving differs a bit from the average technology student's, which makes the strategy pretty obvious. Then the crazy Ne process begins. When I've found a solution that is consistent I translate it to a chronological Ni solution to satisfy my professors/ to get credit and not just a correct answer. It's been a while, but in a month or so I will know better how I use Te/Ti.

You sound more INFP from this.

Because of the Ni? I'm quite sure I'm not, but perhaps I use another function to summerize my results. I'll have to get back on that.

Because of the way you described Ni sounded more like an MBTI definition... it sounded like a judging function...

No, that's not how I use it. The translation comes after the solution, it just has to be descried in a way that is clear to the teachers.

That's a second reason to believe you seem more INFP than INFJ. You assumed the definition of the functions, and tried to manipulate their relation to each other (Ti). Maybe you don't have a "strong" Ti and don't realize you do it, but it could be a Ti hidden agenda thing...

ANYWAY, what I meant was, I disagree with you definition of Ni. I don't think Ni is "chronological", nor do I think it's used in putting information into understandable form. This would be more judgement. Ni is just as convoluted as Ne, maybe more so. That's the MBTI stereotype and where it goes bad. The problem is that people have to re-adjust their brains into thinking of functions a different way when talking about socionics types.

And I don't even know you. :/

[Rocky]

with math problems, I only learn from looking at examples. in a math class, for example, you can go through the problems on the board all day and break things down and explain them perfectly... when it comes time to do the homework, I'm gonna be like "wtf" and just look at a couple examples and then know how to do it. I might as well not even show up for class.

I was the same way in science and social studies. Just give me the text and leave me alone. I'll outline the parts I think are important. PLEASE don't make me listen to you talk and explain things and give notes.

Joy, the only purpose of that is to do well on a test.

And I would disagree with that line of thought. But that's just me. I feel uncomfortable in just "getting by" in a class... at least in most of them.

[pesto]

ANYWAY, what I meant was, I disagree with you definition of Ni.

Exactly, I'm not so sure about that definition either.

...perhaps I use another function to summerize my results. I'll have to get back on that.

Ok, so this is getting OT.

@Jadae: I see, thanks.

[Joy]

with math problems, I only learn from looking at examples. in a math class, for example, you can go through the problems on the board all day and break things down and explain them perfectly... when it comes time to do the homework, I'm gonna be like "wtf" and just look at a couple examples and then know how to do it. I might as well not even show up for class.

I was the same way in science and social studies. Just give me the text and leave me alone. I'll outline the parts I think are important. PLEASE don't make me listen to you talk and explain things and give notes.

Joy, the only purpose of that is to do well on a test.

And I would disagree with that line of thought. But that's just me. I feel uncomfortable in just "getting by" in a class... at least in most of them.

It's more so about being able to absorb the information in an efficient way. The manner in which teachers present information is very irritating to me, especially when you factor in the multitude of stupid people that she has to go slow for. Just give me the information that I'm responsible for learning and leave me alone, please. You've wasted enough of my time.

Yes, doing well on the test is a motivating factor. What's the point in even going to high school if you're not going to do well? Besides, I enjoy taking tests.

[Rocky]

Just give me the information that I'm responsible for learning and leave me alone, please.

Yeah, that's the part I say doesn't sit well with me.

Yes, doing well on the test is a motivating factor. What's the point in even going to high school if you're not going to do well?

My question to you is, what's the point in doing well in highschool?


(does is seem like I'm criticizing you a lot lately?)

EDIT/// and this may be one reason why people say that you're ENTP rather than ENTJ.

[Joy]

lol I think it just seems like you're criticizing me more because we've been interacting more. I'm not sure, but I don't think our interactions have really changed (other than the frequency).

When I was in highschool, the point in doing well was to get into colleges. The point in doing that was to get an awesome job. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have gone to highschool. I would have worked fulltime instead.

Another reason I did well on tests was because the success. Knowing that I set the curve gave me a sense of satisfaction. Tests were fun because they were the only challenge being presented to me. They didn't require any outside effort (no, I didn't study). Most importantly though... they carried my grade. My participation grade varied per class because when I was there, I participated in class discussion, but I had a lot of absenses. I refused to do any homework and if I did a project, it was either done well in school or half assed/not at all at home. Projects irritated me greatly.

I suppose the consequences of failing kept me going to school. If I failed, I would be grounded from my boyfriend and car. The school would also have my work permit taken away. There was a good chance that even if the school didn't yank my work permit, my parents would.

When I was in highschool, life was about 2 things: my boyfriend and my freedom. Freedom consisted of being able to go where I wanted, meaning I'd need a car, and being able to do what I want to do, meaning I'd need money, which meant that I'd need to work. I had to pay for my car, gas, car insurance, clothes, and cell phone.

As for that first part that doesn't sit well with you... I learn better on my own than I do taking notes. It's also less annoying.

[Joy]

EDIT/// and this may be one reason why people say that you're ENTP rather than ENTJ.

why's that?

[Angel von Himmel]

Well, usually I start by making really abstract models out of toothpicks and chewing gum, and then go from there ...

[Joy]

the scary thing is that I think I believe you

[cracka]

Another reason I did well on tests was because the success. Knowing that I set the curve gave me a sense of satisfaction. Tests were fun because they were the only challenge being presented to me. They didn't require any outside effort (no, I didn't study). Most importantly though... they carried my grade. My participation grade varied per class because when I was there, I participated in class discussion, but I had a lot of absenses. I refused to do any homework and if I did a project, it was either done well in school or half assed/not at all at home. Projects irritated me greatly.

I also didn't believe in homework or studying but always did well on tests. I did all of my work during class when the teacher was "teaching" or before class when I felt like it. Up until I was in high school my mother would tell me to sit down and do my homework before i could have any fun. I figured later on to just not bring any homework home and that led to more fun time and time I could play basketball, soccer, or video games... Even when I went to tech school I just got to school a bit early and did all the work i was supposed to do for homework. Homework at home = shit. :wink:

[Joy]

lol I usually did anything that had to be done in the class before the one that it was due in... my history teacher would see me scribbling in geometry answers because the assignment is due in 15 minutes, etc.

[Angel von Himmel]

the scary thing is that I think I believe you

Yeah ... I usually had a tough time during math classes, as you can probably tell.

[Rocky]

As for that first part that doesn't sit well with you... I learn better on my own than I do taking notes. It's also less annoying.

Notes aren't that big of a deal. I was talking about just wanting to be given what you needed to do good on a test, instead of listening to the teacher and trying to understand the prinicples behind it. The "As long as I get a good grade" approach.

This is why I said you come off as ENTP. ENTJ I don't see treating school like that (sorry). That's more ENTP than anything... if I remember correctly, somewhere MBTI claims that ENTP is the second lowest for level of education, right before ISFP (last)... ENTJ was high up there somewhere... big difference between the two.

[Rocky]

lol I usually did anything that had to be done in the class before the one that it was due in... my history teacher would see me scribbling in geometry answers because the assignment is due in 15 minutes, etc.

Ehh, I did that too. Looking back, it's doesn't seem like a good thing...

[Rocky]

lol I think it just seems like you're criticizing me more because we've been interacting more. I'm not sure, but I don't think our interactions have really changed (other than the frequency).