Delta duality descriptions by Gulenko ENFp-ISTp ESTj-INFj

[Beautiful sky]

SEI > an Fi (relation with someone) leads to Si (certain sensations they get from that person)

EII > an Ni (an event) leads to Fi (a certain feeling of relation)

Oh oh oh...saying INTERESTING doesn't make someone EII or N type.

This is why SEI ask people to type people they meet and EII just type them themselves.

[UDP]

Perhaps you can realize now that you have typed a certain member incorrectly for some time now and then continue to converse with me. Because if we can not establish that as a basis, we aren't speaking. I don't see any need to have further relations with you (ethically speaking).

Let it go, Maritsa. Let it go.

You're a strong person, you don't need to relationally manipulate others into making them share your viewpoint... especially on something so trivial as the type of "some random person that you do not like or agree with self typing". It's really quite petty, don't you think?

How you feel about the person is enough on its own, you don't need me to agree with you.

...If you just want to be a jerk about things, of course, then deal with it.

And if you didn't like my jokes, say so, and I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[Beautiful sky]

Let it go, Maritsa. Let it go.

You're a strong person, you don't need to relationally manipulate others into making them share your viewpoint... especially on something so trivial as the type of "some random person that you do not like or agree with self typing". It's really quite petty, don't you think?

You want to be on ignore.

[UDP]

You want to be on ignore.

At the loss of what? You already are threatening not to talk to me. It makes little difference. And the additional relational manipulation really doesn't mean much to me. I don't know why you think declaring your relationship to people is so important to you, or your declaration of how other people should be viewed is so important to you.

I hope you let it go sometime. But, that's all - we've had this conversation many times before.

[Beautiful sky]

You are irrational, you can't come to this rational thought. Do you think that it is acceptable for some body to come on here and say that an INFj can't take care of themselves, for years, painting an INFj as a picture of some helpless person only to confuse and muddy the water that that is how an INFj is and for me to come here and correct those mistakes (finding proof etc to support my case) working tirelessly for hours, explaining why or why not, in endlessly thought, without any sort of strong backing, and then to have you not acknowledge that? Do you think that should be acceptable? This is a simple yes or no answer. otherwise leave me alone.

My duals will recognize me. I don't care what you do with your relations. You either accept this as a fact or keep ponying your pretend INFj around.

[Beautiful sky]

Back to being an INFj...

what is Ethics...it's not like an LSE comes to me and says "can I cheat on my wife..is that ok?" ugh...no

it's more like "it's not right for you to treat your sister this way because you don't find her divorce a right thing to do." and "don't over react and blow up on people because they didn't do something that you would do for them." and "stop being so neurotic, I love you anyway."

[UDP]

Wow, this is deep. So now there is, for the first time as revealed to me, a reason given (other than personal dislike or pettiness) as to why Maritsa is waging a campaign about "someone's" type. This is new/s to me.

You are irrational, you can't come to this rational thought.

That's weak, and basically implying that irrational types are not able to comprehend things. (Why are you reacting this way? Why the anger?)

Do you think that it is acceptable for some body to come on here and say that an INFj can't take care of themselves, for years, painting an INFj as a picture of some helpless person only to confuse and muddy the water that that is how an INFj is

No. If that's some allusion to me, I don't believe that's what I've done. And if that's the perception I've created, I renounce it and regret it.
I like seeing strong people, and I know EIIs, delta NFs, and anyone else, can be strong and healthy. It's of more use to the world if there are strong, fully functioning people in it; the ability to choose healthy interdependence is more productive than dependence. "You have to be independent before you can be interdependent" "Borrowing strength builds weakness", and other such quotes. There's a lot of work to be done, so the more functioning people the better.

and for me to come here and correct those mistakes (finding proof etc to support my case) working tirelessly for hours, explaining why or why not, in endlessly thought, without any sort of strong backing, and then to have you not acknowledge that? Do you think that should be acceptable? This is a simple yes or no answer. otherwise leave me alone.

If that was your goal, you could have said so several months ago. Why do you reveal things like this right now?
If that has been your goal, it might be useful to tell people so they know.
I appreciate the efforts of people who tries to bring about truth and understanding - is that what you're trying to do? If so, how can I help you.

My duals will recognize me. I don't care what you do with your relations. You either accept this as a fact or keep ponying your pretend INFj around.

I've not said anything about your type in this whole thread. I'm sure my remark about telling you to 'wear that dress' can be seen as a nod to you being an EII. I don't really have an interest in proclaiming what your type is or isn't.


I'm curious:
Do you think what I've said in this thread is an attempt to argue what your type is or isn't?
And why are you taking hostages as a way to make a point?

[Beautiful sky]

I appreciate the efforts of people who tries to bring about truth and understanding - is that what you're trying to do? If so, how can I help you.

I'm not trying to bring you truth (Fe) and understanding (whatever HA) what is wrong with you?

Truth and understanding are not my trademarks.

[UDP]

I'm not trying to bring you truth (Fe) and understanding (whatever HA) what is wrong with you?

Truth and understanding are not my trademarks.

...I see. Well, thanks for your input.

[Beautiful sky]

I have not seen this before. On first glance it does not seem like me, but that may be because I am not reading it thoughtfully enough. So I'll keep reading with an open mind. I thought about this, taken from above (I changed to "she" where appropriate):

In this function, IEE continuously issues necessary emotions, reacting adequately to changes in the external situation with big emotional contrasts, thereby consistently creating an emotional background above the average due to her charm, smiles, artistry, sociability. In this situation, SLI does not care for the nuances of emotional displays, which come to him with difficulty. His emotions, in case of their manifestation, will not seem rude or inappropriate on the background that IEE creates. IEE does not react verbally to SLI's poorly managed mood swings, she does not teach or criticize, doesn't try to penetrate into his soul. All actions and steps that require subtle emotional responses, the IEE takes onto her shoulders, seeing SLI tendency to soulful anguish, his inner vulnerability, and shocking displays of emotion.

This is interesting because i do sort of take over the outward emotional side for the two of us, and in our types that makes sense. My SLI has expressed concern that he might hurt me with an "outburst" of insensitivity, and that he is determined to be careful not to, but I assured him he does not need to worry about that. I am more sensitive in situations I don't know, I think, but I know him, and know he loves me, and if he was irritable or insensitive, I would not be hurt but quiet and watchful to understand what motivated it, more concerned about what was bothering him than anything.

Well, yes of course you do. You watched Emily and Jef and see how she is much more extravert, stairs into people's eyes directly when talking when sometimes he will look down or within himself.

[Beautiful sky]

LSE fully assumes responsibility for active protection of vital interests of this dyad.

I always said I need this here and everywhere I should say.

Eliza, thank you for protecting me. I love you for that. You have way more bam in your Se.

[Saberstorm]

To me, pessimism = negative....unless, of course, I live in some alternate universe..... which sometimes I think I do.

Positivism in Reinin is wether or not you notice what is there. Negativism in Reinin is noticing what isn't there.

[jessica129]

Which is also the definition of pessimism..no?

[Beautiful sky]

Positivism in Reinin is wether or not you notice what is there. Negativism in Reinin is noticing what isn't there.

Which brings me to two points:

1. UPD notices how many posts I make, is that Positivist or Negativis
2. What's a good source of these dichotomies.

[anndelise]

Which is also the definition of pessimism..no?

If you go outside and notice the absence of clouds in the sky...is that positivism or pessimism?
It woud depend on the value you hold for those clouds. If it's winter, and you're dying for a little sun...the absence of clouds is a good thing for letting sun shine on you. But if it's midsummer and the heat is unbearable, the absence of clouds means more sun shine bearing down on you. Blah!

Basically, pessimism has negative judgments of some kind. Not necessarily so of Reinin Negativists.

[UDP]

Which brings me to two points:

1. UDP notices how many posts I make, is that Positivist or Negativis
2. What's a good source of these dichotomies.

UDP notices your convenient misspelling of names for people you don't like.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

UDP notices your convenient misspelling of names for people you don't like.

Which brings me to two points:

1. UPcDz notices how many posts I make, is that Positivist or Negativis
2. What's a good source of these dichotomies.

Fixed.

[Beautiful sky]

UDP notices your convenient misspelling of names for people you don't like.

That is not true at all. That's just because details aren't that important to me.

[UDP]

That is not true at all. That's just because details aren't that important to me.

[Absurd]

[jessica129]

Hey absurd, I thought you were leaving?

[willekeurig]

höhööö im sei and im dumb but everyone loves me , but sometimes i feel very odd but i guess everyone still loves me regardless....mostly....i guess or smthing heheee jee.... i ate alot today and now i feel kinda heavy.... theres this forest psy party thingy going on later and im abducting agarina there with me and make her do loads of diffrent drugs and we are gonna expand our conciousness so bad that its gonna stay that way for while hehe cant wait... agarinas actually pretty excited at the moment jee jee

xoxo , agarinas beloved pet<3

[Nevero]

2. Fi: creative function of ENFp and activating function of ISTp
If necessary, IEE is able to create close psychological distances in interaction. He is creative in this area and can easily find an approach to almost anyone. He can form a circle of close friends and becomes the focus of their attention. SLI usually communicates at increased distances. At shortened interpersonal distance, he feels uncomfortable and may display impassive and even insensitive demeanor. Combining these two opposing approaches their communication happens at optimal interpersonal distance. IEE periodically shortens this distance, while SLI has a tendency to increase it. SLI is able to distance from a person by a few phrases, by a look or gesture, to stop any encroachment into his personal space.

question for SLIs and IEEs - is this generally true? this pictures the IEE acting like an "emotional aggressor" in pursuit of the SLI who is acts like a victim trying to distance and slip away

when an IEE and a SLI are tyring to hook up with each other who makes the first move?

[Suz]

question for SLIs and IEEs - is this generally true? this pictures the IEE acting like an "emotional aggressor" in pursuit of the SLI who is acts like a victim trying to distance and slip away

oh absolutely. I dont know that I would say an SLI acts like a victim though.

[Nevero]

Obviously I don't know if this works the same with other people. Also don't know how this would work in case of female IEEs and male SLIs.

ha, i was wondering about that too

this girl whom i thought to be IEE said that when she was interested in a guy she would make all indications and make it very obvious to him that she liked him. but she wouldn't make the first step and leave it up to the guy instead.

do other female IEEs use this approach?

My husband recently told me that he's definitely ok with me not being as emotionally expressive as some other females in our family, cause that makes him take me seriously when I sit him down and he can see it takes some strain on me to say some things out loud. It makes him pay attention and listen whereas he'd be much more likely to be dismissive if such displays and discussions were there on a daily basis.

was he expecting you to be more emotionally expressive?

oh absolutely. I dont know that I would say an SLI acts like a victim though.

how would you describe it in your own words

[Nevero]

Sure, 1918slater had the idea of different types of aggressor, victim, infantile & caregiver. Communication styles also imply sth like this. If we add in what labcoat has said about statics taking initiative & dynamics adapting, it'd follow XEEs as very persistent, even jarringly (but to XLIs, assuringly) persistent. as silke/siuntal put it in some old post, EIE & ILI are victims with victim sauce on top due to being negativist (high-barrier to entry, like a fortress) -egos, meaning SEE would be even more persistent than IEE. Add in ILI's NTness (maximum socially-closed or w/e) it makes even more sense. Still, SLI is a serious introvert constructivist so they ain't easy to pry open either.

with the aggressor-victim dynamic it is more or less clear to me who pursues and who adapts, but not so for the caregiver-childlike types.

if you had to rank the caregiver-childlike types on a scale of which of them are confident and insistent at the beginning, how would you rank them?

[Suz]

ha, i was wondering about that too

this girl whom i thought to be IEE said that when she was interested in a guy she would make all indications and make it very obvious to him that she liked him. but she wouldn't make the first step and leave it up to the guy instead.

I think that can depend on her past experiences, and how much and how she had been rejected in the past. I've been though a few rejections now, and I am reluctant to be too forward. Though, every time i swear i wont make the first move or confess, when the feelings drive me crazy enough I still end up doing so.

how would you describe it in your own words

idk, i only have had 1-2 experiences with sli's personally. I would say the sli's are more like "rocks". You can't read em. You can't move em. They're just "there".

[Nevero]

Nevero... I'd say extravert positivists are most confident & persistent at 1st. I'd say SF club & statics gives more confidence too. Dynamic can also be insistent, if the circumstances are right. They adapt smoothly to what makes sense, while statics got this idea which they push regardless of anything, which leads to bumping their heads but also deeper understanding, according to labcoatian understanding. So alpha extroverts most confident & persistent then, I'd guess ILE stumbling more during it all, perhaps more often starting relations by drawing the attention & thus the initiative of IXFx? Ofc there are exceptions, hkkmr is a NA resigned ILE (also seems pretty cynical) so not so confident or insistent. ESE is declaring dynamic SF so more certain, smooth. Here's an article by Meged, which supports ESE as confident & insistent, take it with a grain of salt tho cuz silke & others piledrove Meged's credibility in LostInDream's thread.

i've made a thread about it if you'd like to explain further and continue the discussion there: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...dual-relations

[Beautiful sky]

With regards to this:

"The EII helps him to streamline his approach and make it more focused and direct, thereby saving his energies. Among many winning strategies the EII helps the LSE choose the one that has the greatest potential to bring the most benefit."

LSE will often ponder suggestions and ideas about what they might do, like to do, can do in the future, with regards to their work and living. I am great at selecting the road to the highest potential return. In this way I help my dual

@Becca

How do you like these descriptions?

[Becca]

With regards to this:

"The EII helps him to streamline his approach and make it more focused and direct, thereby saving his energies. Among many winning strategies the EII helps the LSE choose the one that has the greatest potential to bring the most benefit."

LSE will often ponder suggestions and ideas about what they might do, like to do, can do in the future, with regards to their work and living. I am great at selecting the road to the highest potential return. In this way I help my dual

@Becca

How do you like these descriptions?

I love them. They sound like such a good ideal for the relationship of an INFj. I love to help people pick out an idea with the highest potential road as you say. Yet I do not get many opportunities for this, because I find that most people do not like interference with their planning. But I truly mean well, and it is very frustrating.
I think this has something to do with the EII's first function Fi being to need to be needed. I wonder a lot about that. Is it because we feel that the only thing we can contribute to society is giving love and attention to others? It is heartbreaking when others do not take our interest in their lives seriously. Especially people we are close to.

Btw, how do you "mention" someone? I've been trying to figure it out...lol weak Se? Or Te? Or Si?

[Beautiful sky]

I love them. They sound like such a good ideal for the relationship of an INFj. I love to help people pick out an idea with the highest potential road as you say. Yet I do not get many opportunities for this, because I find that most people do not like interference with their planning. But I truly mean well, and it is very frustrating.
I think this has something to do with the EII's first function Fi being to need to be needed. I wonder a lot about that. Is it because we feel that the only thing we can contribute to society is giving love and attention to others? It is heartbreaking when others do not take our interest in their lives seriously. Especially people we are close to.

Btw, how do you "mention" someone? I've been trying to figure it out...lol weak Se? Or Te? Or Si?

The "how (s)" of doing thungs would be weak Te. To mention you choose the @ symbol and without a space right after you type in the user's name

[Becca]

The "how (s)" of doing thungs would be weak Te. To mention you choose the @ symbol and without a space right after you type in the user's name

Ok thanks

[Aylen]

I want a $1 for each time I tell an LSE to calm down. ....


I am going to be a WEALTHY woman

And YES I AM DETAILED; I painstakingly dissect everything...of intellectual nature

That is not true at all. That's just because details aren't that important to me.

Do you consider yourself a detailed person in general? I have some kind of internal conflict when reconciling these two posts in the same thread. I am not clear... I know it is a different context but when do details become unimportant? And why would spelling not fit into an intellectual category? I am pretty sure my sister is EII and I would say she is detailed in her art among other things.

[Beautiful sky]

Do you considered yourself a detailed person in general? I have some kind of internal conflict when reconciling these two posts in the same thread. I am not clear... I know it is a different context but when do details become unimportant? And why would spelling not fit into an intellectual category? I am pretty sure my sister is EII and I would say she is detailed in her art among other things.

In my work I am forethoughtful, maticulous and thourough in my general out look on things I am general from above my self and experience

[Becca]

I noticed something interesting. Duals like when their duals use their Hidden Agenda, despite the fact that they are not too good at it. For example, I was always attracted to people who could come up with random anecdotes that make no sense yet they still have so much to say about it. I think it's because it stimulates my imagination to make sense of it. And the reverse; ESTj's like when INFj's work extra hard to get something done..? Like, when I sweep the floor extra careful and make sure to get every last dirt particle? Lol.
I know that my conflictors do not appreciate my Si efforts; because it is their ignoring function. And vise verse; I do not care for their Fe attempts. For example, they yell at me or get upset if I do not come up and be courteous to them. They don't seem to understand my need for things to be in order, and for quiet time to myself.
That's it rant done.

[Suz]

I noticed something interesting. Duals like when their duals use their Hidden Agenda, despite the fact that they are not too good at it. For example, I was always attracted to people who could come up with random anecdotes that make no sense yet they still have so much to say about it. I think it's because it stimulates my imagination to make sense of it. And the reverse; ESTj's like when INFj's work extra hard to get something done..? Like, when I sweep the floor extra careful and make sure to get every last dirt particle? Lol.
I know that my conflictors do not appreciate my Si efforts; because it is their ignoring function. And vise verse; I do not care for their Fe attempts. For example, they yell at me or get upset if I do not come up and be courteous to them. They don't seem to understand my need for things to be in order, and for quiet time to myself.
That's it rant done.

I've noticed this very same thing! (and yes to the LSE's loving the delta NF diligence, even if it's not perfect -- the NF wont see every last dirt particle but will definitely try to)

[Becca]

I've noticed this very same thing! (and yes to the LSE's loving the delta NF diligence, even if it's not perfect -- the NF wont see every last dirt particle but will definitely try to)

I was always wondering if we like when our duals use their mobilizing function because we can help them when the need it? And then this helps us use our creative function?
It's soo confusing, because are we supposed to use our HIDDEN agenda, or our Creative function?
I heard that the hidden function is our goal. But which one is really what we need to use more, the hidden agenda or the creative function?

[Suz]

I was always wondering if we like when our duals use their mobilizing function because we can help them when the need it? And then this helps us use our creative function?
It's soo confusing, because are we supposed to use our HIDDEN agenda, or our Creative function?
I heard that the hidden function is our goal. But which one is really what we need to use more, the hidden agenda or the creative function?

Well from what I can tell, i think also you appreciate your dual's emphasis on this very important (to you) function, so even if they aren't perfect at it, you like that they think it's important too. And like you said, you being great at that function yourself, you get a chance to help them out, with a function that you take great pride in being good at. And of course, as it's said, giving is one thing that generates love (in any sense of the word - romantic, platonic, professional, parent-child).

I think both creative and hidden agenda functions are both our "life's goal". One comes easy to you, the other not so much.

[Becca]

Well from what I can tell, i think also you appreciate your dual's emphasis on this very important (to you) function, so even if they aren't perfect at it, you like that they think it's important too. And like you said, you being great at that function yourself, you get a chance to help them out, with a function that you take great pride in being good at. And of course, as it's said, giving is one thing that generates love (in any sense of the word - romantic, platonic, professional, parent-child).

I think both creative and hidden agenda functions are both our "life's goal". One comes easy to you, the other not so much.

I'm obsessed with this explanation Perfect thank you

[Suz]

I'm obsessed with this explanation Perfect thank you

I'm glad!
I think this also happens with activity partners, perhaps even more prominently, hence the more recognizable intertype (versus duality). I've definitely experienced the HA appreciation from LSEs. I do work myself to exhaustion with LSE bosses/teachers, but they love me for it. As opposed to an EIE (or SLE) boss/teacher (whom i recently left) who worked me to beyond exhaustion and despite this, approached me with disdain, contempt, and dissatisfaction. He is no longer my boss but STILL trying to control my work, can you believe it? What a control freak!

The nice thing about duality (vs activity) is that duality is more restful. Activity is easy on the psyche but exertionally demanding. Duality is easy on both. At least that's how i've come to understand it.